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Is it safe to assume that Littlefinger is Robert Arryn’s father?


James Steller

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6 minutes ago, corbon said:

Heh, not my best day communication-wise.

I mean, we can be sure from her statements that Sweetrobin is Jon's.  Then GRRM throws in a seed of doubt, because he likes that. But the statements are still clear and ring true if you look at them closely. Sweetrobin is a true Arryn.

You know I got to thinking about why this house, established and running strong 3000 years ago should be dying off now, as prophecy takes prominence with monsters emerging from the mists of time.  Sweet Robin is a good example for the decline of the house.   Maybe all the youngest/surviving heirs (or lordlings, even) in this time are the truth of their blood.   Man you guys really got me thinking some bitchen House Arryn/endgame things.  

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Lysa insisting that Robert is Jon's doesn't really mean anything to me either way. Of course Lysa would convince herself and others that Robert was Jon's. Without having his heir, she's nothing and the books make the point that Lysa, as much as she hated being married to Jon Arryn, absolutely loved the trappings that came with him.

And it comes off as the lady doth protest insist too much, but that might be just Lysa. Who knows.

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59 minutes ago, zandru said:

that Baelish would get the most leverage by dangling (heh) his succulent body just out of Lysa's reach, not to be touched until she had helped him to clear away all the "obstacles."

:ack:

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1 hour ago, corbon said:

Heh, not my best day communication-wise.

I mean, we can be sure from her statements that Sweetrobin is Jon's.  Then GRRM throws in a seed of doubt, because he likes that. But the statements are still clear and ring true if you look at them closely. Sweetrobin is a true Arryn.

I agree that we're meant to wonder. People should keep in mind that this was only revealed at the end of book three, along with the major reveal about Jon's murder. 

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1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Gads, that's right!  She makes a big deal repeating "the seed is strong".  Excellent head canon check.  

You can hardly take Lysa Tully’s word for anything without a grain of salt on top of a pile of more salt? But taking the text itself, I can imagine a few scenarios now off the top of my head how it could still work. Lysa is desperate to confirm Jon’s parentage on Robert because of self doubt or paranoia that someone will question the fact that her son isn’t turning out like his dad at all. And we know for sure that her first child with Littlefinger died,  but why would anyone know of their second child? Maybe Lysa persuades herself that the boy is Jon’s child, maybe she’s desperately trying to battle accusations that haven’t been made yet, maybe she’s unstable and repeating instructions given to her by a man who we know can manipulate her into doing anything.

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5 minutes ago, James Steller said:

You can hardly take Lysa Tully’s word for anything without a grain of salt on top of a pile of more salt? But taking the text itself, I can imagine a few scenarios now off the top of my head how it could still work. Lysa is desperate to confirm Jon’s parentage on Robert because of self doubt or paranoia that someone will question the fact that her son isn’t turning out like his dad at all. And we know for sure that her first child with Littlefinger died,  but why would anyone know of their second child? Maybe Lysa persuades herself that the boy is Jon’s child, maybe she’s desperately trying to battle accusations that haven’t been made yet, maybe she’s unstable and repeating instructions given to her by a man who we know can manipulate her into doing anything.

Well no, we really can't.  She wanted to please Little Finger very badly.  Who knows?  Perhaps he already suggested sending the little brat off to foster somewhere?  Amid all this LF pleasing there are these proclamations about Robin's what? Validity?  Nobility?  I'm not sure what she meant other people to get from the statements, but I took it like she was defending her sick little boy with quoting his mighty father and using the quotes as proof of something better than Robin really is.   Remember, Lysa was a deeply disturbed person.  Do you recall any instance Lysa was clever or cunning or smart in any move she made?  I'm not knocking what you're saying.  My doubt lies in the person of Lysa herself.  As you say, she is repeating instructions given to her by a man who there is NO DOUBT he can manipulate her.  It's a good point and as you say, she is just nutty enough to try to talk herself into something publicly.  

Do you think Little Finger would have held the same sway over Lysa if her nuncle had stayed in the Vale?  

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6 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Well no, we really can't.  She wanted to please Little Finger very badly.  Who knows?  Perhaps he already suggested sending the little brat off to foster somewhere?  Amid all this LF pleasing there are these proclamations about Robin's what? Validity?  Nobility?  I'm not sure what she meant other people to get from the statements, but I took it like she was defending her sick little boy with quoting his mighty father and using the quotes as proof of something better than Robin really is.   Remember, Lysa was a deeply disturbed person.  Do you recall any instance Lysa was clever or cunning or smart in any move she made?  I'm not knocking what you're saying.  My doubt lies in the person of Lysa herself.  As you say, she is repeating instructions given to her by a man who there is NO DOUBT he can manipulate her.  It's a good point and as you say, she is just nutty enough to try to talk herself into something publicly.  

Do you think Little Finger would have held the same sway over Lysa if her nuncle had stayed in the Vale?  

To each their own, but I can definitely believe Lysa could have had a child with Littlefinger and she could have justified it in so many ways.
 

And as for Blackfish, he really didn’t have much influence over Lysa. He was a glorified captain of the gates. She didn’t respect him or any member of her family. She wouldn’t join the war which her family was fighting for their survival? How much did she really care about any of them in the aftermath of the Red Wedding? 

 

Come to think of it, I’m surprised she didn’t have Brynden fight Bronn in that trial by combat. Brynden would have killed him and then Lysa would have executed Tyrion. The ramifications of that would ripple out past comprehension.

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1 minute ago, James Steller said:

To each their own, but I can definitely believe Lysa could have had a child with Littlefinger and she could have justified it in so many ways.
 

And as for Blackfish, he really didn’t have much influence over Lysa. He was a glorified captain of the gates. She didn’t respect him or any member of her family. She wouldn’t join the war which her family was fighting for their survival? How much did she really care about any of them in the aftermath of the Red Wedding? 

 

Come to think of it, I’m surprised she didn’t have Brynden fight Bronn in that trial by combat. Brynden would have killed him and then Lysa would have executed Tyrion. The ramifications of that would ripple out past comprehension.

Maybe a better plan than she actually came up with.

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It is certainly possible but I lean towards no, personally, and mostly due to Lysa's behavior, others have already said what needs to be said.

Aside from that, didn't LF encourage the rumor that something happened between him and Cat? Or am I misremembering/confusing the thing we do not speak of?

 

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6 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

 I read the tansy as a moon tea or a fetal killing sort of thing, not something used to induce pregnancy, but to end it.   A lot goes into ending a pregnancy and I am unsure how you reach the conclusion that Lysa bore a healthy child.   Would love some clarity on that.  So as I have read these words I conclude the fetus was aborted, not born.  

Well, I wouldn't say that I've reached a conclusion, but there does seem to be some evidence for it. And it's an interesting puzzle to work on. Especially the Tansy part. In ASOS 29 (Arya V), the BWB stays at an inn/brothel called The Peach, run by  a woman named Tansy.  She has red hair.  It's mentioned three times in a span of two pages.  In two places, she's actually referred to as "red-haired Tansy," in case anyone needs to see both words in one sentence to make the connection. Seems like GRRM really wants us to associate the name with the hair.

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9 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Lysa insisting that Robert is Jon's doesn't really mean anything to me either way. Of course Lysa would convince herself and others that Robert was Jon's. Without having his heir, she's nothing and the books make the point that Lysa, as much as she hated being married to Jon Arryn, absolutely loved the trappings that came with him.

And it comes off as the lady doth protest insist too much, but that might be just Lysa. Who knows.

How is her situation different than Cersei's?? Lysa wasn't talking in front of a room full of people, only LF and Sansa were there and Lysa told a lot of truths and plots in front of Sansa but she would choose to lie about Robin??

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6 hours ago, Aebram said:

an inn/brothel called The Peach, run by  a woman named Tansy

Well, if you think about it, what better name for a prostitute than "Tansy"? It's kind of an advertisement that "No worries, dudes! you'll father no bastards here!"

And this (below) would seem to be a good indication that little sickly seizure-prone Robert Arryn is the trueborn son of Jon Arryn. Regardless of his hair and eye color.

11 hours ago, corbon said:

The simple fact is that when multiple (3) women struggle or fail to have healthy children with one man, its almost always connected to the man.

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Going back to the same Mendelian genetics that produced our first mystery, regarding the true paternity of Cersei’s children, we should probably be very suspicious that Jon Arryn is the father of Sweet Robin.

Auburn hair is a variant of red hair, which in turn is considered an the result of an “incomplete dominant” gene.

Incomplete dominant genes will blend in with the genes of the other parent.  For example, if a red haired person and brown haired person has a child together, you will probably get a child with auburn hair (like Cat and Lysa).  The auburn hair in turn is also considered an incomplete dominant and should blend with the hair of the father.

Assuming that genetics in Westeros works in a similar fashion to real world genetics, the fact that Jon Arryn has blond hair, makes it fairly likely it is a recessive gene.  In turn then, Jon Arryn should not have been able to provide a brown haired gene for Sweet Robin to have inherited.

So genetically, Sweet Robin should have some blend of blond and auburn hair, thus Jon Arryn’s heir has the wrong hair. (Heh).

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2 hours ago, frenin said:

How is her situation different than Cersei's?? Lysa wasn't talking in front of a room full of people, only LF and Sansa were there and Lysa told a lot of truths and plots in front of Sansa but she would choose to lie about Robin??

The difference is her mental state which I consider along with her words. In that very same scene, we learn that Lysa's capacity for self-delusion especially when it comes to LF and her kids is phenomenal. If I was a writer and I wanted my readers to believe a character's words without question, I wouldn't introduce information which calls that character into question in the very same scene.

Seen Maury Povitch? Both men and women blind themselves to the paternity of their kids because they want to believe one option over the others. The scene doesn't confirm or deny anything to me in that regard.

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8 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

The difference is her mental state which I consider along with her words.

If anything her mental state makes her more prone to tell the truth. She is not inventing anything there... except the child being Jon's...

 

9 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

In that very same scene, we learn that Lysa's capacity for self-delusion especially when it comes to LF and her kids is phenomenal.

How so?? She comes across that extremely jealous, to the point of irrationality, rather than her inventing another reality. And she was drunk.

 

20 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

If I was a writer and I wanted my readers to believe a character's words without question, I wouldn't introduce information which calls that character into question in the very same scene.

I don't know, Cersei deludes herself a lot and i still consider her an authority in that department...

 

 

 

 

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57 minutes ago, frenin said:

If anything her mental state makes her more prone to tell the truth. She is not inventing anything there... except the child being Jon's...

 

How so?? She comes across that extremely jealous, to the point of irrationality, rather than her inventing another reality. And she was drunk.

 

I don't know, Cersei deludes herself a lot and i still consider her an authority in that department...

 

 

 

 

Characters who show selective blindness (they all do to some degree and usually with specific things) lie to themselves above all else. Sansa had a thing about fairy tale lives. Ned was blind to Robert, Arya, Cersei, and the KL situation was born of his selective blindness. Tyrion is loaded with it so I won't go there. Tywin who's sharp as anyone is blind to Cersei and Jaime and also Jaime's refusal to take CR. Then there's Bowen Marsh and his walls. I could go on and on and on....Whereas most of the characters are within the normal range of things we all do to some degree, Lysa was just off the charts in the specific area of LF and Robert/children. Delusion, denial, etc and their degrees need to be seen as unique to the character/person.

How so? Only Cat. That and she still breastfeeds her son who is very near puberty.

 

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15 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Takes a big person to point their own mistake out and correct it with such good information.  Thanks, Man. 

Funny, but I always heard it the first way - infertility is the lack of a living child. Miscarriages don't equal fertility.

Quote

You're right about the whole hellacious conception triangle being written specifically for us to question and doubt.  Right on.  

So right!

15 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Gads, that's right!  She makes a big deal repeating "the seed is strong".  Excellent head canon check.  

I like to think SR is Jon Arryn's, but it's very ambiguous. Lysa also complains Jon is an old men with weak seed.

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1 hour ago, Lollygag said:

Characters who show selective blindness (they all do to some degree and usually with specific things) lie to themselves above all else. Sansa had a thing about fairy tale lives. Ned was blind to Robert, Arya, Cersei, and the KL situation was born of his selective blindness. Tyrion is loaded with it so I won't go there. Tywin who's sharp as anyone is blind to Cersei and Jaime and also Jaime's refusal to take CR. Then there's Bowen Marsh and his walls. I could go on and on and on....Whereas most of the characters are within the normal range of things we all do to some degree, Lysa was just off the charts in the specific area of LF and Robert/children. Delusion, denial, etc and their degrees need to be seen as unique to the character/person.

How so? Only Cat. That and she still breastfeeds her son who is very near puberty.

 

Most of those characters don't delude themselves, especially Sansa who simply had no better comparison, as i say, every character delude themselves, you're exaggerating tho, but delude themselves to the point of not knowing whether they bang 9 months ago or not seeems like a stretch.

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