Is it safe to assume that Littlefinger is Robert Arryn’s father?

[Lollygag]

Just now, frenin said:

Most of those characters don't delude themselves, especially Sansa who simply had no better comparison, as i say, every character delude themselves, you're exaggerating tho, but delude themselves to the point of not knowing whether they bang 9 months ago or not seeems like a stretch.

I don't know who Lysa slept with at the time Robert was conceived. No reader does. It's who she believes the father is and her mental state over the issue that raises questions. It's a common real life phenomena that people will convince themselves of the parentage they prefer and arbitrarily deny the possibility of another being the father. And this is Lysa...

[Kierria]

That is the sort of thing we can expect from Martin.  Littlefinger and Sansa are slowly poisoning his own son.  

[Lollygag]

Just now, Kierria S said:

That is the sort of thing we can expect from Martin.  Littlefinger and Sansa are slowly poisoning his own son.  

Sansa comes from the North where even golden boy Robb had to prove his strength to earn their true loyalty. She's playing a delicate and dangerous game, but Robert needs to appear strong to take over the Vale from LF and Sansa's right in Robert not being able to do that if he arrives slung over livestock in a hysterical fit. She's using Robert against LF.

[zandru]

30 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

S[ansa]'s playing a delicate and dangerous game, but Robert needs to appear strong ...

Yes. And Sansa has no training, absolutely zero, in medicines or poisons. Arya, at this point, would have understood what was going on, thanks to her studies with the Waif. Sansa can only trust her "Petyr", on whom her life literally depends. Talk about being out of the frying pan and into the fire!

So, assuming those of the group who think Robert Arryn is actually Robert (Baelish)) Stone, how might Littlefinger be planning to work this to his advantage? As Lord Lysa Arryn, he had some legitimate power; he's also empowered as Regent of Little Sweetrobin (and obviously Lord Of Harrenhall, etc). Assuming that Jon Arryn had no legitimate heirs, are there ways that Baelish can leverage this to his advantage? Assuming either that the truth comes out, or that it might be advantageous to reveal it?

[Quoth the raven,]

49 minutes ago, zandru said:

Yes. And Sansa has no training, absolutely zero, in medicines or poisons. Arya, at this point, would have understood what was going on, thanks to her studies with the Waif. Sansa can only trust her "Petyr", on whom her life literally depends. Talk about being out of the frying pan and into the fire!

So, assuming those of the group who think Robert Arryn is actually Robert (Baelish)) Stone, how might Littlefinger be planning to work this to his advantage? As Lord Lysa Arryn, he had some legitimate power; he's also empowered as Regent of Little Sweetrobin (and obviously Lord Of Harrenhall, etc). Assuming that Jon Arryn had no legitimate heirs, are there ways that Baelish can leverage this to his advantage? Assuming either that the truth comes out, or that it might be advantageous to reveal it?

Littlefinger murdered Lysa Arryn.  The truth will result in his death.  His only play is to continue the lie.  Sansa cannot really come clean with her true identity because there will too many awkward questions.  Even if there is a bastard pretending to be lawful.  She is lawful pretending to be a bastard.  The status quo will remain and then winter will come and it won't matter. 

[Megorova]

1 hour ago, zandru said:

So, assuming those of the group who think Robert Arryn is actually Robert (Baelish)) Stone, how might Littlefinger be planning to work this to his advantage?

He already did. Littlerobert was LF's leverage against Lysa. She was thankful to him for finally giving her a child (previous five failed pregnancies were Jon's children), and convinced Jon to elevate LF to position of Master of coin in the Small Council. After that he was using Lysa's fear of losing her son, to manipulate her. And eventually pushed her into poisoning her husband, when Jon told her, that he's planning to send Robert as a ward to Stannis, which was what LF convinced Jon to do. He killed Lysa, but he still needs Robert, thus he will keep him alive, but ill and docile, not to get into LF's way.

[corbon]

17 hours ago, James Steller said:

You can hardly take Lysa Tully’s word for anything without a grain of salt on top of a pile of more salt?

When she's telling a 'fact, sure. But when she's indirectly referencing something, much less so.

17 hours ago, James Steller said:

But taking the text itself, I can imagine a few scenarios now off the top of my head how it could still work. Lysa is desperate to confirm Jon’s parentage on Robert because of self doubt or paranoia that someone will question the fact that her son isn’t turning out like his dad at all.

Yes, this is possible. 
My main point against this is that while it works from her side, I don't think it works from his. There is no reason for Littlefinger to sleep with her while Jon Arryn is alive. He doesn't actually want to, the risk is enormous, and I'm sure he has her favour without fucking her anyway. 
Its all downside for Littlefinger.

Only after Jon is dead, and Littlefinger has risen high enough independently to be an option for marriage, is it actually worth his while sleeping with her.

6 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Assuming that genetics in Westeros works in a similar fashion to real world genetics,

We already know that they don't really. There have been so many recessive genes introduced into the Baratheon line that there should be some double recessives popping up here and there, but its a major plot point that there aren't.
Westerosian genetics seem to have some selective super-genes. Families have X or Y looks, and these are rarely if ever blended within an individual. Kids seem to inherit one parents genes, at least for looks, and not the other's. What is recessive and not, doesn;t seem to work exactly the way our world does. Because plot and literature relevance.

3 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Funny, but I always heard it the first way - infertility is the lack of a living child. Miscarriages don't equal fertility.

Me too, but I'm well prepared to concede the point. Technically speaking she's right I think. Thats why I said maybe I used the wrong word.

3 hours ago, Lollygag said:

I don't know who Lysa slept with at the time Robert was conceived. No reader does. It's who she believes the father is and her mental state over the issue that raises questions. It's a common real life phenomena that people will convince themselves of the parentage they prefer and arbitrarily deny the possibility of another being the father. And this is Lysa...

Fair enough, with the above proviso on Littlefinger's side.
So perhaps we should actually examine the relevant text?

Quote

Lysa seated herself near the fire and said, "Come to Mother, my sweet one." She straightened his bedclothes and fussed with his fine brown hair. "Isn't he beautiful? And strong too, don't you believe the things you hear. Jon knew. The seed is strong, he told me. His last words. He kept saying Robert's name, and he grabbed my arm so hard he left marks. Tell them, the seed is strong. His seed. He wanted everyone to know what a good strong boy my baby was going to be."

Quote

"He is eight. And not robust. But such a good boy, so bright and clever. He will be a great man, Alayne. The seed is strong, my lord husband said before he died. His last words. The gods sometimes let us glimpse the future as we lay dying.

Here I see her not thinking about whose Robert is, but about how 'good' (strong) he is. Yes she's delusional, but she's applying the 'facts' to a different delusion than Sweetrobbin's genetic origin.
That Jon said the seed is strong is a truth - we heard it from other sources (and we know it doesn't actually apply to his own seed!). She's taking that truth and misusing it to support her delusion that Sweetrobbin is strong rather than sickly and weak, But doing so requires she truly believes that Sweetrobbin really is Jon's child. Especially the second time when she references it as a glimpse of the future from the gods to Jon.
I very much doubt that she's mentally coherent enough to deliberately use one delusion to prop up a second delusion. or to make it a religious matter.

Quote

"And I remind you, the dwarf murdered my lord husband!" Her voice rose. "He poisoned the Hand of the King and left my sweet baby fatherless, and now I mean to see him pay!" Whirling, her skirts swinging around her, Lysa stalked across the terrace. Ser Lyn and Ser Morton and the other suitors excused themselves with cool nods and trailed after her.

Indirectly she calls Jon Sweetrobbin's father. 
This one means little, I think. Its close enough to direct and in the context could easily be a deliberate lie. Included for completeness (though I've probably missed several). Plenty of salt here, agreed.

The following quotes are not about Jon, or Sweetrobbin. They are not about her delusions in that direction. They are purely about her relationship with Petyr and how she feels. Her only delusion in this area is how Petyr feels.
There is no reason not to absolutely take these quotes at face value. No salt needed.

Quote

"Poo to my court. I have waited so long, I could not bear to wait another moment." She put her arms around him. "I want to share your bed tonight, my sweet. I want us to make another child, a brother for Robert or a sweet little daughter." 
"I dream of that as well, sweetling. Yet there is much to be gained from a great public wedding, with all the Vale—"

"No." She stamped a foot. "I want you now, this very night. And I must warn you, after all these years of silence and whisperings, I mean to scream when you love me. I am going to scream so loud they'll hear me in the Eyrie!"

"Perhaps I could bed you now, and wed you later?"
The Lady Lysa giggled like a girl. "Oh, Petyr Baelish, you are so wicked. No, I say no, I am the Lady of the Eyrie, and I command you to wed me this very moment!"

Here we see three things. 
First, she has waited so long. 
Second, through all the years its been silences and whisperings. That speaks of passion, but no fulfillment. No conclusively, but that is the picture painted. It needs to be fitted with the other things she says though.
Third, fucking is fine, but she's not into it until they are married. 

If they were fucking already when Jon was alive, then why wait so long, even after Jon is dead?
If she was happy to fuck unmarried (or married to Jon) before, why is she pushing to get married before they fuck again?

These things don't make sense if they have been physical lovers through Jon's marriage. Nor does her physical urgency.
They make perfect sense if she been in an emotional relationship with Petyr for that time and he's encouraged that, but they've not had the physical.

And although Lysa wants the sex, wants it badly, that not her driving force. She wants to belong, to own, to be in love, be married, be tied together. 

Quote

"No more than I did," her aunt said. "Jon Arryn was no dwarf, but he was old. You may not think so to see me now, but on the day we wed I was so lovely I put your mother to shame. But all Jon desired was my father's swords, to aid his darling boys. I should have refused him, but he was such an old man, how long could he live? Half his teeth were gone, and his breath smelled like bad cheese. I cannot abide a man with foul breath. Petyr's breath is always fresh . . . he was the first man I ever kissed, you know. My father said he was too lowborn, but I knew how high he'd rise. Jon gave him the customs for Gulltown to please me, but when he increased the incomes tenfold my lord husband saw how clever he was and gave him other appointments, even brought him to King's Landing to be master of coin. That was hard, to see him every day and still be wed to that old cold man. Jon did his duty in the bedchamber, but he could no more give me pleasure than he could give me children. His seed was old and weak. All my babies died but Robert, three girls and two boys. All my sweet little babies dead, and that old man just went on and on with his stinking breath. So you see, I have suffered too." Lady Lysa sniffed. "You do know that your poor mother is dead?"

It would have been much less hard if she saw him every day and fucked him whenever she got the chance...

But Jon did his duty in the marriage bed, kept trying for heirs, and all her babies died but one weak and sickly child. The weak and sickly child was the same as the others she and Jon made, just slightly stronger, enough to get past birth and live, but not be healthy or normal.

Quote

Father said I ought to thank the gods that so great a lord as Jon Arryn was willing to take me soiled, but I knew it was only for the swords. I had to marry Jon, or my father would have turned me out as he did his brother, but it was Petyr I was meant for. I am telling you all this so you will understand how much we love each other, how long we have suffered and dreamed of one another. We made a baby together, a precious little baby." Lysa put her hands flat against her belly, as if the child was still there. "When they stole him from me, I made a promise to myself that I would never let it happen again. Jon wished to send my sweet Robert to Dragonstone, and that sot of a king would have given him to Cersei Lannister, but I never let them . . . no more than I'll let you steal my Petyr Littlefinger. Do you hear me, Alayne or Sansa or whatever you call yourself? Do you hear what I am telling you?"

Made a baby (from when she raped Petyr before any of them were married). One. Which was stolen from here (murdered by Tansy potion). Not two, not several, not one or more dead and one living. Just one, stolen from her.

And they suffered and dreamed of each other (or at least she dreamed of him) for so long.
If they were fucking, she'd not be suffering or dreaming of him the same way.

Its very clear, and it doesn't come from her statements about Sweetrobbin or Jon, it comes indirectly from her private revelations about her past relationship with Petyr and her feelings for him.

[James Steller]

18 minutes ago, corbon said:

 

Yes, this is possible. 
My main point against this is that while it works from her side, I don't think it works from his. There is no reason for Littlefinger to sleep with her while Jon Arryn is alive. He doesn't actually want to, the risk is enormous, and I'm sure he has her favour without fucking her anyway. 
Its all downside for Littlefinger.

Only after Jon is dead, and Littlefinger has risen high enough independently to be an option for marriage, is it actually worth his while sleeping with her.

They are purely about her relationship with Petyr and how she feels. Her only delusion in this area is how Petyr feels.
There is no reason not to absolutely take these quotes at face value. No salt needed.

Here we see three things. 
First, she has waited so long. 
Second, through all the years its been silences and whisperings. That speaks of passion, but no fulfillment. No conclusively, but that is the picture painted. It needs to be fitted with the other things she says though.
Third, fucking is fine, but she's not into it until they are married. 

If they were fucking already when Jon was alive, then why wait so long, even after Jon is dead?
If she was happy to fuck unmarried (or married to Jon) before, why is she pushing to get married before they fuck again?

These things don't make sense if they have been physical lovers through Jon's marriage. Nor does her physical urgency.
They make perfect sense if she been in an emotional relationship with Petyr for that time and he's encouraged that, but they've not had the physical.

And although Lysa wants the sex, wants it badly, that not her driving force. She wants to belong, to own, to be in love, be married, be tied together. 

 

Firstly, if Littlefinger was worried about consequences, he wouldn’t be the character that he is. He makes calculated decisions, sure, but he’s still playing all the sides against each other in a way that they’d all love to tear him apart if they found out what he’d been doing. And Littlefinger is never satisfied with any set level of power, he’s blind to perspective and comfort. It’s like Noah Cross in Chinatown. Jake Gittes asks him why he’s dealing in murder and corruption when he’s already rich (like Littlefinger), how much better can he eat, what can’t he already afford, and Noah Cross proclaims “The future” before asking about the whereabouts of the girl, whom he cares about more than any wealth he’ll ever have. It’s the same with Littlefinger, obsessed with the daughter of his precious obsession, on a mission to grab all the power that he can because he gets a thrill out of playing the world against itself. Hence why he is so dangerous; no amount of wealth could ever be enough for him. So yes, I can see why he’d cuckold Jon Arryn as proof of his own intellectual superiority over a war hero and highly respected man who was his own liege lord back when his family were stuck on a patch of bare rock in the Fingers. Littlefinger is partially driven by an inferiority complex due to his poor background and his lack of physical prowess. It leaves him desperately hungry for more and more, and ruthlessly hateful of those who slighted him or who made him feel inferior. A true narcissist incapable of empathy or healthy affection, desperate to grab as much power as possible while gaming the system. I won’t say who that reminds me of because this is a literature focused site, but the point is that Littlefinger is capable of all sorts of devious actions, it doesn’t stretch my disbelief at all.

As for Lysa, I can still make it work. Lysa talks about being fed up with whispers, and waiting. She’s speaking very much like Jaime Lannister talks about how he is sick of deception and secrecy. Cersei slept with Jaime constantly, but she never considered marrying him. Plus, we don’t know exactly how Littlefinger got this sick hold over Lysa, whether it was through emotional manipulation or sex, or maybe both. We’ll never know those details, and that ambiguity gives us room to theorize. I have no trouble believing that Littlefinger strung Lysa along as he had sex with her in secret and led her by the nose with promises that they could be married if these people were put out of the way. Robert being his secret son also gives Lysa an ideal family with father, mother, and child living happily together, just like her older sister got with Eddard Stark (minus Jon Snow, of course). 

[corbon]

22 minutes ago, James Steller said:

Firstly, if Littlefinger was worried about consequences, he wouldn’t be the character that he is. He makes calculated decisions, sure, but he’s still playing all the sides against each other in a way that they’d all love to tear him apart if they found out what he’d been doing. And Littlefinger is never satisfied with any set level of power, he’s blind to perspective and comfort. It’s like Noah Cross in Chinatown. Jake Gittes asks him why he’s dealing in murder and corruption when he’s already rich (like Littlefinger), how much better can he eat, what can’t he already afford, and Noah Cross proclaims “The future” before asking about the whereabouts of the girl, whom he cares about more than any wealth he’ll ever have. It’s the same with Littlefinger, obsessed with the daughter of his precious obsession, on a mission to grab all the power that he can because he gets a thrill out of playing the world against itself. Hence why he is so dangerous; no amount of wealth could ever be enough for him. So yes, I can see why he’d cuckold Jon Arryn as proof of his own intellectual superiority over a war hero and highly respected man who was his own liege lord back when his family were stuck on a patch of bare rock in the Fingers.

We have a somewhat different view of Littlefinger. Thats ok.

Quote

As for Lysa, I can still make it work. Lysa talks about being fed up with whispers, and waiting. She’s speaking very much like Jaime Lannister talks about how he is sick of deception and secrecy. Cersei slept with Jaime constantly, but she never considered marrying him. Plus, we don’t know exactly how Littlefinger got this sick hold over Lysa, whether it was through emotional manipulation or sex, or maybe both.

Ahh, we pretty much do. Cats tells us enough about their childhood together to see when it started.

Quote

It would not do to disturb them at their prayers. The gods must have their due … even cruel gods who would take Ned from her, and her lord father as well. So Catelyn waited. The river wind moved through the high branches, and she could see the Wheel Tower to her right, ivy crawling up its side. As she stood there, all the memories came flooding back to her. Her father had taught her to ride amongst these trees, and that was the elm that Edmure had fallen from when he broke his arm, and over there, beneath that bower, she and Lysa had played at kissing with Petyr.

She had not thought of that in years. How young they all had been—she no older than Sansa, Lysa younger than Arya, and Petyr younger still, yet eager. The girls had traded him between them, serious and giggling by turns. It came back to her so vividly she could almost feel his sweaty fingers on her shoulders and taste the mint on his breath. There was always mint growing in the godswood, and Petyr had liked to chew it. He had been such a bold little boy, always in trouble. "He tried to put his tongue in my mouth," Catelyn had confessed to her sister afterward, when they were alone. "He did with me too," Lysa had whispered, shy and breathless. "I liked it."

Lysa was closer to Petyr in age than Cat, but older than him, so they must have been almost the same age. They played together, told the Blackfish their problems together, kissed together, and after this we see Lysa always going hard after Petyr, to the point of raping him when he was drunk (and thought she was Cat) and tending him after Brandon cut him up in their duel over Cat.

It was neither emotional manipulation, nor sex, that got him his hold over her - he was after Cat the whole time. But she fell for him in their childhood, just as he fell for Cat, its really that simple.

 

Quote

We’ll never know those details, and that ambiguity gives us room to theorize. I have no trouble believing that Littlefinger strung Lysa along as he had sex with her in secret and led her by the nose with promises that they could be married if these people were put out of the way.

I don't either - ETA or rather, not much.
I do have trouble reconciling that with the way Lysa feels and the frustration she expresses.

Theorising is great, but its got to fit with the text. Lysa is very clear in her frustrations. Theorising that her frustrations were in fact being secretly satisfied just doesn't work.

Quote

Robert being his secret son also gives Lysa an ideal family with father, mother, and child living happily together, just like her older sister got with Eddard Stark (minus Jon Snow, of course). 

She wants to make a new baby with Petyr. She never references being a family with him and Sweetrobbin.

[Curled Finger]

7 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Funny, but I always heard it the first way - infertility is the lack of a living child. Miscarriages don't equal fertility.

I like to think SR is Jon Arryn's, but it's very ambiguous. Lysa also complains Jon is an old men with weak seed.

A little perk of hanging around this forum...you learn the most interesting things from interesting people.   Genetics and fertility are so over my head.   I was with you 100% until 

I still believe Sweet Robin is Jon Arryn's child.  However, if that really isn't the case, there is always the namesake.   Wouldn't that be stunning if our intrepid bastard was really just the heir of Jon Arryn! This is preposterous of course, but this thread has my mind going in fun places.  I am beside myself wondering why Ned chose Jon for his nephew's name over Rickard or Howland or Willum or Robert even.  Means nothing I am sure, but still fun.  

[Aebram]

12 hours ago, zandru said:

Well, if you think about it, what better name for a prostitute than "Tansy"? It's kind of an advertisement that "No worries, dudes! you'll father no bastards here!"

True, but in that case, she wouldn't need to have red hair; and we certainly wouldn't need to have the hair color pointed out several times.

Out of curiosity, I just did a search for the word "tansy" across all 5 e-books.  It doesn't occur at all in AGOT, ACOK, or ADWD. In AFFC, it's the name of one of the orphans at the inn, who seems to have no significance to the plot.  

In ASOS, "tansy" occurs 25 times.  One is in the Prologue, where it's mentioned in passing as a type of flower.  One is in the last chapter, where Lysa mentions its use to end her attempt to bear a son for LF.  The other 23 are all either Hoster Tully's deathbed mumblings, or the red-haired innkeep.  Seems like a pattern to me.

.... Although actually, this is a bit off-topic.  The Tansy mystery is not really relevant to the question of little Robert's parentage.  Maybe we should start a separare thread?

[Lollygag]

 4 hours ago, corbon said:

Here I see her not thinking about whose Robert is, but about how 'good' (strong) he is. Yes she's delusional, but she's applying the 'facts' to a different delusion than Sweetrobbin's genetic origin.
That Jon said the seed is strong is a truth - we heard it from other sources (and we know it doesn't actually apply to his own seed!). She's taking that truth and misusing it to support her delusion that Sweetrobbin is strong rather than sickly and weak, But doing so requires she truly believes that Sweetrobbin really is Jon's child. Especially the second time when she references it as a glimpse of the future from the gods to Jon.
I very much doubt that she's mentally coherent enough to deliberately use one delusion to prop up a second delusion. or to make it a religious matter.

Thanks for the quotes!

She has very strong delusions about very specific things, but she's not broadly off in the way a schizophrenic might be. She was smart enough to kill Jon, initiate a complex political plan from it (at LF's direction I expect) and then to not only keep it secret but to stay completely beyond suspicion. While we saw Lysa make *odd* choices in Catelyn's and Sansa's POV, we have never been led to believe that anyone in the Vale had any real problem with the way she ruled in Robert's stead which means she was doing well enough. With GRRM's characters, I think it's important to distinguish between a character's very specific blind spots and their mental capabilities which are often very different things.

 

4 hours ago, corbon said:

Quote

"Poo to my court. I have waited so long, I could not bear to wait another moment." She put her arms around him. "I want to share your bed tonight, my sweet. I want us to make another child, a brother for Robert or a sweet little daughter." 
"I dream of that as well, sweetling. Yet there is much to be gained from a great public wedding, with all the Vale—"

"No." She stamped a foot. "I want you now, this very night. And I must warn you, after all these years of silence and whisperings, I mean to scream when you love me. I am going to scream so loud they'll hear me in the Eyrie!"

"Perhaps I could bed you now, and wed you later?"
The Lady Lysa giggled like a girl. "Oh, Petyr Baelish, you are so wicked. No, I say no, I am the Lady of the Eyrie, and I command you to wed me this very moment!"

Here we see three things. 
First, she has waited so long. 
Second, through all the years its been silences and whisperings. That speaks of passion, but no fulfillment. No conclusively, but that is the picture painted. It needs to be fitted with the other things she says though.
Third, fucking is fine, but she's not into it until they are married. 

If they were fucking already when Jon was alive, then why wait so long, even after Jon is dead?
If she was happy to fuck unmarried (or married to Jon) before, why is she pushing to get married before they fuck again?

These things don't make sense if they have been physical lovers through Jon's marriage. Nor does her physical urgency.
They make perfect sense if she been in an emotional relationship with Petyr for that time and he's encouraged that, but they've not had the physical.

And although Lysa wants the sex, wants it badly, that not her driving force. She wants to belong, to own, to be in love, be married, be tied together. 

This is a good point. I admit to being confused about their relationship. Quite a lot. Lysa apparently fooled LF into sleeping with her when they were young which is in contrast to this. I'm not sure how to reconcile it. I can see where they decided to stop a relationship long ago because it was too risky but I'm not sure how likely that is though we've seen the issue come up with other characters (Tyrion and Shea especially). I try to see it through the perspective of what would gain LF the most control over Lysa, but I can see that going a number of ways too. Lysa might be doing some Beyonce's if you like it then you'd better put a ring on it and maybe deep down suspects LF may not be as interested in marrying her as she is him. And then we have where LF seems genuinely convinced that he took Catelyn's virginity and his increasing weirdness with Cat-clone Sansa, so we're dealing with not one, but two people who are really off when it comes to this particular area. I really don't know.

4 hours ago, corbon said:

Quote

"No more than I did," her aunt said. "Jon Arryn was no dwarf, but he was old. You may not think so to see me now, but on the day we wed I was so lovely I put your mother to shame. But all Jon desired was my father's swords, to aid his darling boys. I should have refused him, but he was such an old man, how long could he live? Half his teeth were gone, and his breath smelled like bad cheese. I cannot abide a man with foul breath. Petyr's breath is always fresh . . . he was the first man I ever kissed, you know. My father said he was too lowborn, but I knew how high he'd rise. Jon gave him the customs for Gulltown to please me, but when he increased the incomes tenfold my lord husband saw how clever he was and gave him other appointments, even brought him to King's Landing to be master of coin. That was hard, to see him every day and still be wed to that old cold man. Jon did his duty in the bedchamber, but he could no more give me pleasure than he could give me children. His seed was old and weak. All my babies died but Robert, three girls and two boys. All my sweet little babies dead, and that old man just went on and on with his stinking breath. So you see, I have suffered too." Lady Lysa sniffed. "You do know that your poor mother is dead?"

It would have been much less hard if she saw him every day and fucked him whenever she got the chance...

But Jon did his duty in the marriage bed, kept trying for heirs, and all her babies died but one weak and sickly child. The weak and sickly child was the same as the others she and Jon made, just slightly stronger, enough to get past birth and live, but not be healthy or normal.

This passage is tougher to take at face value because she's talking to Sansa here and trying to gain her sympathy. It's also not a great idea to brag to your niece to whom you are now guardian that you've been sleeping around behind your husband's back, especially as Lysa was entertaining marrying her to her own son.

5 hours ago, corbon said:

Quote

Father said I ought to thank the gods that so great a lord as Jon Arryn was willing to take me soiled, but I knew it was only for the swords. I had to marry Jon, or my father would have turned me out as he did his brother, but it was Petyr I was meant for. I am telling you all this so you will understand how much we love each other, how long we have suffered and dreamed of one another. We made a baby together, a precious little baby." Lysa put her hands flat against her belly, as if the child was still there. "When they stole him from me, I made a promise to myself that I would never let it happen again. Jon wished to send my sweet Robert to Dragonstone, and that sot of a king would have given him to Cersei Lannister, but I never let them . . . no more than I'll let you steal my Petyr Littlefinger. Do you hear me, Alayne or Sansa or whatever you call yourself? Do you hear what I am telling you?"

Made a baby (from when she raped Petyr before any of them were married). One. Which was stolen from here (murdered by Tansy potion). Not two, not several, not one or more dead and one living. Just one, stolen from her.

And they suffered and dreamed of each other (or at least she dreamed of him) for so long.
If they were fucking, she'd not be suffering or dreaming of him the same way.

Its very clear, and it doesn't come from her statements about Sweetrobbin or Jon, it comes indirectly from her private revelations about her past relationship with Petyr and her feelings for him.

Again, she's talking to Sansa here and this also assumes Lysa is being honest with herself. More about Lysa's credibility regarding the Stannis/Tywin ward issue which is referenced here.

Bold: Lysa was "meant for" Petyr and in this world that means marriage. This sort of situation also comes up in the books where Jaime is fed up hiding his and Cersei's relationship even though they're together. We also see Tyrion have a need for legitimacy with Shea even though they're together.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Robert_Arryn

Quote

Conflicting accounts about plans for fostering Robert

In the early books, various characters give conflicting accounts on whether Robert was meant to be fostered by Stannis Baratheon at Dragonstone or instead by House Lannister at Casterly Rock, suggesting some change of plans linked to his father's death.

• King Robert I Baratheon wanted to give Robert Arryn to be fostered by Tywin Lannister at Casterly Rock. Lysa Arryn refused and fled King's Landing hurriedly, going back to the Eyrie with her son.^[4]

• Queen Cersei Lannister seems to believe that Jon Arryn also wanted Tywin to foster Robert, and states that Lysa fled to the Eyrie with her son.^[16]

• A potboy that used to work for Jon believes though that shortly before his death Lord Arryn was planning for Stannis to foster Robert at Dragonstone.^[17]

• Ser Brynden Tully believes that arrangements were made for Robert to be raised in Casterly Rock and makes no mention of Dragonstone.^[1]

• Maester Colemon agrees with the version that claims Dragonstone for Robert's fostering and insists that it is so, despite hearing a conflicting history from Lysa, by way of Catelyn Stark.^[7]

• Lord Walder Frey insists that Jon had made arrangements to raise Robert at Dragonstone and not Casterly Rock.^[18] Catelyn grows uneasy at having that statement reinforced once again, all the more so because Walder affirms that Lysa was well aware of those plans, albeit strongly opposed to them as well.^[18] If Walder is saying the truth, then Lysa lied to her (and presumably to Brynden the Blackfish as well).

• Stannis confirms that Jon had asked him to foster Robert at Dragonstone.^[19]

• Grand Maester Pycelle informs Tyrion Lannister that Jon was sending his wife back to the Eyrie and his son to be fostered on Dragonstone.^[20]

• Lysa eventually admits to know both of Jon's desire to send Robert to Dragonstone and of King Robert Baratheon's plans to send him to Casterly Rock; she seems to believe that the latter is motivated by a request from Cersei.^[5]

As the history stands at the end of A Dance with Dragons, it would seem that Lord Jon Arryn planned to send Robert to Dragonstone to protect him from his enemies, but Queen Cersei Lannister found out and convinced King Robert I Baratheon to interfere and send young Robert to Casterly Rock instead. The main evidence is Cersei's conversation with Ser Jaime Lannister in the First Keep.^[16] It would seem that Jaime is unaware of the original Dragonstone plans.

 

In the end I'm in the same place as before in that it's inconclusive for me. GRRM definitely wants us to wonder about it and he's pretty heavy-handed about it. I don't know why. It makes no sense to write this way if we're to take Lysa at face value (again, who has deeply questionable credibility and is also very delusional in this area) and rule out the possibility that Robert is LF's.

[BlackStag123]

It certainly could be possible, but I don't know, I don't buy it.

 

 

[corbon]

50 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Thanks for the quotes!

She has very strong delusions about very specific things, but she's not broadly off in the way a schizophrenic might be. She was smart enough to kill Jon, initiate a complex political plan from it (at LF's direction I expect) and then to not only keep it secret but to stay completely beyond suspicion. While we saw Lysa make *odd* choices in Catelyn's and Sansa's POV, we have never been led to believe that anyone in the Vale had any real problem with the way she ruled in Robert's stead which means she was doing well enough. With GRRM's characters, I think it's important to distinguish between a character's very specific blind spots and their mental capabilities which are often very different things.

I agree in general. I do think she is quite a bit delusional, but in specific areas. I don't see her feeding one delusion to another to maintain them though. Coherent might not have been the right word. Mentally strong enough might have been better. I don't think she mentally strong enough to hold that sort of mental construct on entwined and codependent lies together. Mental weakness is actually whats behind the delusions IMO.

50 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

This is a good point. I admit to being confused about their relationship. Quite a lot. Lysa apparently fooled LF into sleeping with her when they were young which is in contrast to this. I'm not sure how to reconcile it. I can see where they decided to stop a relationship long ago because it was too risky

No, they never actually had a relationship in that way to stop. 
Littlefinger played with them both as children, but romantically he chased Cat and rejected Lysa. 
She merely ignored his rejection and began her own delusions when she raped him. 
Even after that, he was still chasing Cat, not her, through his duel with Brandon, and letter to Cat as soon as he heard Brandon was dead. And that never truly changed on his part, as we saw when he killed her.

50 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

but I'm not sure how likely that is though we've seen the issue come up with other characters (Tyrion and Shea especially). I try to see it through the perspective of what would gain LF the most control over Lysa, but I can see that going a number of ways too. Lysa might be doing some Beyonce's if you like it then you'd better put a ring on it

Thats clearly not true. She wants him and always has. She didn't wait for a 'ring on it' when she raped him. Its just now she has the power for something he does want, she uses it. She wants the full package if she has the power, but she rammed the milk down his throat for free when she didn't.
The question really is whats in it from his side.

50 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

and maybe deep down suspects LF may not be as interested in marrying her as she is him. And then we have where LF seems genuinely convinced that he took Catelyn's virginity and his increasing weirdness with Cat-clone Sansa, so we're dealing with not one, but two people who are really off when it comes to this particular area. I really don't know.

I think its clear that Littlefinger has no real interest in Lysa. thus no reason to sleep with her. But by toying with her, playing along with her emotional relationship, he gets all the advantages of her favour while she is married to Jon, and none of the disadvantages of a risky physical relationship he's not truly interested in anyway.

50 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

This passage is tougher to take at face value because she's talking to Sansa here and trying to gain her sympathy. It's also not a great idea to brag to your niece to whom you are now guardian that you've been sleeping around behind your husband's back, especially as Lysa was entertaining marrying her to her own son.

Again, she's talking to Sansa here and this also assumes Lysa is being honest with herself. More about Lysa's credibility regarding the Stannis/Tywin ward issue which is referenced here.

I don't think she has any reason to lie, or even be delusional about her feelings now that Jon is gone and she has the power. And she is consistent both in what she says to Sansa and what she says and does with Littlefinger. Her delusions are always about other people, the unreality being based on the truth of what she wants. She doesn't lie about that it seems, at least now she doesn't have any need to.

50 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Bold: Lysa was "meant for" Petyr and in this world that means marriage. 

More than just marriage. But its all and only in her head. He only cares for her as a means toward power. And thats he's easily been able to get by encouraging her emotionally and denying her physically. 

 

[Lollygag]

@corbon

This is another hacked up post where it's beginning to read like arguing for the sake of arguing out of boredom or sport or whatever. You chopped out my points about how a lot of this is told to Sansa and Lysa isn't likely to reveal the truth of a possible affair to her 13 year old niece that she wants to marry to her son. You'll have to find someone else to play with.

I'm not taking Lysa at face value because we've been clearly told not to. I'm considering that Robert is possibly LF's because that's what the author clearly wants and it makes zero, ZERO sense to write it that way if it's not an actual possibility. Whether he really is or not or why we're being led down this path, I have no idea. That's all.

 

[The Map Guy]

@James Steller
You make great points for Littlefinger + Lysa = Sweetrobin

How Jon Arryn was robust at his old age, but SR is not. How Jaime & Cersei ~ LF & Lysa.

I have had this theory for a while, but I didn't want to be the one to reveal it ... because I am an author of another tinfoil theory ... and combining that theory with this one would uncover some bad karma for George RR Martin. BUT here it goes anyways since GRRM keeps making us wait for TWOW again and again and again.

 

I have a lot of notes and citation for this topic, but I will just post the quick bullet points.

• Ned to Jon Snow ... not real son, but mother Lyanna knows
• King Robert to Joffery, Tommen ... not real sons, but mother Cersei knows
• Jon Arryn to Sweetrobin ... not real son, but mother Lysa knows

 

• King Robert - Cersei - Jaime = Cersei convinced Jaime to come to King's Landing to be with her (I know, I know, this was Mad King era) 
• Jon Arryn - Lysa - Littlefinger  = Lysa convinced LF to be a part of the small council, but it was so she can be with him (LF wanted the council, not Lysa)

 

• Lysa confesses OFTEN and LOUDLY publicly that the "Seed is Strong", meaning SR is JA's son ... but it was a lie
• Catelyn confesses OFTEN and LOUDLY publicly that she was taking Tyrion to Winterfell as a prisoner ... but it was a lie

The loudest person in the room ain't always right or telling the truth *cough news-media cough cough*

• Lysa has a private talk with Sansa about how JA's seed was old and weak ... contradicting

 

Sansa building the snowy Winterfell castle ... this symbolizes House Stark.

• Brandon Stark kicked the shit out of Littlefinger.
• Sansa Stark kicked the shit out of Sweetrobin via a voodoo doll. 

 

• Littlefinger - Sweetrobin
• Catelyn - Sansa aka Little Bird

Sweetrobin and Little Bird sitting on the tree
K. I. S. S. I. N. G.
First comes love, then comes marriage, then comes a baby Baelish-Stark in a carriage!

Haha jk ... that is not the real song, and the real song is better than Marillion singing at the Moon Door!

 

So what is Littlefinger's Ultimate Plan??

Lady Lysa + Littlefinger = Bastard Tully-Baelish
The future child of Lady Sansa Stark + Bastard Baelish = "Legitimate Stark-Arryn" = Illegitimate Stark-Baelish
Lady Catelyn Stark and Lord Petyr Baelish sitting on the tree ... haha jk again. That is not the real song.

"Alayne" = "Bastard Baelish"
Sweetrobin = "Legitimate Arryn"
The future child of "Alayne" + Sweetrobin = "Legitimate Baelish-Arryn" with actual Baelish DNA!!

Littlefinger's future Baelish-grandson would have infiltrated female Tully DNA and female Stark DNA, while taking over House Arryn!

House Baelish is sweetly robbing House Arryn!!!
Littlefinger is mocking those birds!!
The impregnable Eyrie!! Yeah right!!
But give Littlefinger a few nights and he'll impregnate that bitch!

In the meanwhile, with the Knights of Vale at his grasp via his son, he can take advantage of the power struggle at King's Landing. Littlefinger has a decent chance of taking the Iron Throne, if he can convince Sweetrobin, Lord of the Vale, to do it.

*sigh* George please forgive me for exposing some bad karma. 

LF: Sweetrobin, you have not yet realized your importance. You have only begun to discover your power. Join me and I will complete your training. With our combined strength, we can seize the Iron Throne while it is weak and bring order to Westeros.
SR: I'll never join you!
LF: If you only knew the power of the Dark Side! Lysa never told you what happened to your father.
SR: Sansa did, and she told me enough! She told me you killed him!
LF: No Sweetrobin, I am your father.
SR: No ... no ... it's not true. That's impossible!
LF: Search your feelings, you know it to be true.
SR: NoOOOOOooOOO! NooOOooO! *cries like a baby*
LF: Sweetrobin, we can destroy Tommen Baratheon. I have foreseen this. This is our destiny. Join me and together we can rule Westeros as Baelish father and son!
SR: No! I have always been Lord Robert "Sweetrobin" Arryn!! Lord of the Eyrie! Defender of the Vale! You are not my father! My mother is dead! My real father is dead! I am free as a bird now! And this bird you CANNOT CHANGE! And this bird YOU CANNOT CHANGE!! AND THIS BIRD YOU CANNOT CHANGE!!! Lord Baelish, know that I can't change! Lord Baelish, you can't help me, I can't change! I'm Lord Arryn and I can't change! HIGH AS HONOR!! See me fly highhhhhhhhhhh ... a free bird!! Yeah!!!! * jumps out the Moon Door and Sweetrobin "rocks" *

For your entertainment ... here is Lynyrd Skynyrd - Free Bird with the visuals of actress Robin Wright in 1994 Forrest Gump.
I wonder if Robin is related to the Wright Brothers? Sorry, going off-topic.
 

[TheLastWolf]

Little Robert could not be LF's son because;

• Jon Arryn couldn't have swallowed his honor and allowed soiled Lysa to get soiled again (as someone mentioned previously) for the sake of continuing his bloodline ( which he will not be doing if the father is Petyr)...he simply couldn't have lived with the truth. Anyway there was Harry the Heir.
• LF couldn't have secretly slept with Lysa either as Jon was aware of their past relationship and would've taken some measures. Moreover, LF himself regards Lysa ugly (as told to the Imp).
• Little Robert is weak due to his old father's seed being weak and his last words about the seed being weak is a reference to Robert Baratheon's byblows.
• LF having no hesitation in putting  Little Robert's life (the sweetsleep episode) is proof enough.
• Finally, LF plans to eliminate the sick boy (who he thinks will die soon with a little help) to get HtH and Alaynesa to command the Vale as his puppets.

Frankly, it does not matter. Even if Little Robert is LF's bastard, it would do no good for LF to have it revealed as the boy is his claim to regency and power.

But those who say Catelyn's children other than Arya were fathered by LF are very wrong....because how could all of them have Warg abilitites without Stark blood (First men blood)

3 hours ago, BlackStag123 said:

It certainly could be possible, but I don't know, I don't buy it.

S,You can't buy any of it...because it ain't true.

[frenin]

14 hours ago, Lollygag said:

I don't know who Lysa slept with at the time Robert was conceived. No reader does. It's who she believes the father is and her mental state over the issue that raises questions. It's a common real life phenomena that people will convince themselves of the parentage they prefer and arbitrarily deny the possibility of another being the father. And this is Lysa...

But she doesn't have any problems over the issue, she is doting the child because she already had 5 miscarriages/stillborn not because she wants desperately the child to be an Arryn. If there was a possibility the child might be LF's,  Lysa would've pulled a Cersei.

[zandru]

I'm beginning to think that most everything that could be said already has, but let me repeat a few items which indicate that Petyr Baelish never had sex with Lysa while she was married to Jon Arryn:

• Her growing unattractiveness. Petyr never had any great desire for Lysa, although as a boy, he'd take whatever he could get (heh, heh). Lysa's repeated pregnancies contributed towards weight gain and lack of self-care, and as we all know, 95% of romantic love is based on the beauty of the female.
• Lysa's loud concept of "making love." Any furtive relationship would be revealed by Lysa's nonstop screaming and yelling. Also, to one who has presumeably trained his 'hos to do likewise, having a paramour who acted like a 'ho might be a real turnoff.
• What benefit, other than a little physical release, would a tryst with Lysa yield? Why would Baelish need to do it with a homely screamer, married to the powerful Hand of the King no less, when he had all his whorehouses that he could do "QC" on, with much more attractive and safe products?
• Getting caught with Lysa would put an end to his cushy position as Master of Coin and at the very least, all his future prospects. That is, if it didn't end his very life.

So, even though we may be enticed to believe Robert Arryn is a more successful Lysa/Petyr offspring, the evidence says "no way."

[Lollygag]

23 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

@James Steller
You make great points for Littlefinger + Lysa = Sweetrobin

How Jon Arryn was robust at his old age, but SR is not. How Jaime & Cersei ~ LF & Lysa.

I have had this theory for a while, but I didn't want to be the one to reveal it ... because I am an author of another tinfoil theory ... and combining that theory with this one would uncover some bad karma for George RR Martin. BUT here it goes anyways since GRRM keeps making us wait for TWOW again and again and again.

 

I have a lot of notes and citation for this topic, but I will just post the quick bullet points.

• Ned to Jon Snow ... not real son, but mother Lyanna knows
• King Robert to Joffery, Tommen ... not real sons, but mother Cersei knows
• Jon Arryn to Sweetrobin ... not real son, but mother Lysa knows

 

• King Robert - Cersei - Jaime = Cersei convinced Jaime to come to King's Landing to be with her (I know, I know, this was Mad King era) 
• Jon Arryn - Lysa - Littlefinger  = Lysa convinced LF to be a part of the small council, but it was so she can be with him (LF wanted the council, not Lysa)

 

• Lysa confesses OFTEN and LOUDLY publicly that the "Seed is Strong", meaning SR is JA's son ... but it was a lie
• Catelyn confesses OFTEN and LOUDLY publicly that she was taking Tyrion to Winterfell as a prisoner ... but it was a lie

The loudest person in the room ain't always right or telling the truth *cough news-media cough cough*

• Lysa has a private talk with Sansa about how JA's seed was old and weak ... contradicting

 

Sansa building the snowy Winterfell castle ... this symbolizes House Stark.

• Brandon Stark kicked the shit out of Littlefinger.
• Sansa Stark kicked the shit out of Sweetrobin via a voodoo doll. 

 

• Littlefinger - Sweetrobin
• Catelyn - Sansa aka Little Bird

Sweetrobin and Little Bird sitting on the tree
K. I. S. S. I. N. G.
First comes love, then comes marriage, then comes a baby Baelish-Stark in a carriage!

Haha jk ... that is not the real song, and the real song is better than Marillion singing at the Moon Door!

 

So what is Littlefinger's Ultimate Plan??

Lady Lysa + Littlefinger = Bastard Tully-Baelish
The future child of Lady Sansa Stark + Bastard Baelish = "Legitimate Stark-Arryn" = Illegitimate Stark-Baelish
Lady Catelyn Stark and Lord Petyr Baelish sitting on the tree ... haha jk again. That is not the real song.

"Alayne" = "Bastard Baelish"
Sweetrobin = "Legitimate Arryn"
The future child of "Alayne" + Sweetrobin = "Legitimate Baelish-Arryn" with actual Baelish DNA!!

Littlefinger's future Baelish-grandson would have infiltrated female Tully DNA and female Stark DNA, while taking over House Arryn!

House Baelish is sweetly robbing House Arryn!!!
Littlefinger is mocking those birds!!
The impregnable Eyrie!! Yeah right!!
But give Littlefinger a few nights and he'll impregnate that bitch!

In the meanwhile, with the Knights of Vale at his grasp via his son, he can take advantage of the power struggle at King's Landing. Littlefinger has a decent chance of taking the Iron Throne, if he can convince Sweetrobin, Lord of the Vale, to do it.

*sigh* George please forgive me for exposing some bad karma. 

LF: Sweetrobin, you have not yet realized your importance. You have only begun to discover your power. Join me and I will complete your training. With our combined strength, we can seize the Iron Throne while it is weak and bring order to Westeros.
SR: I'll never join you!
LF: If you only knew the power of the Dark Side! Lysa never told you what happened to your father.
SR: Sansa did, and she told me enough! She told me you killed him!
LF: No Sweetrobin, I am your father.
SR: No ... no ... it's not true. That's impossible!
LF: Search your feelings, you know it to be true.
SR: NoOOOOOooOOO! NooOOooO! *cries like a baby*
LF: Sweetrobin, we can destroy Tommen Baratheon. I have foreseen this. This is our destiny. Join me and together we can rule Westeros as Baelish father and son!
SR: No! I have always been Lord Robert "Sweetrobin" Arryn!! Lord of the Eyrie! Defender of the Vale! I can do whatever I want here because I'm free as a bird now! And this bird you CANNOT CHANGE! And this bird YOU CANNOT CHANGE!! AND THIS BIRD YOU CANNOT CHANGE!!! Lord Baelish, know that I can't change! Lord Baelish, you can't help me, I can't change! I'm Lord Arryn and I can't change! HIGH AS HONOR!! Won't you see me fly highhhhhhhhhhh ... a free bird!! Yeah!!!! *jumps out the Moon Door*

Don't worry. I know what you are looking for. I'm not a monster making you find it yourself. Here it is. 

Some parts don't work for me but it's a lot of fun! Tons of Lann the Clever in here, too.

 

20 hours ago, frenin said:

But she doesn't have any problems over the issue, she is doting the child because she already had 5 miscarriages/stillborn not because she wants desperately the child to be an Arryn. If there was a possibility the child might be LF's,  Lysa would've pulled a Cersei.

Those aren't mutually exclusive. Lysa needs any child, Jon's or one to pass off as Jon's, to continue to be Lady Arryn after old man Jon dies.

20 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Little Robert could not be LF's son because;

• Jon Arryn couldn't have swallowed his honor and allowed soiled Lysa to get soiled again (as someone mentioned previously) for the sake of continuing his bloodline ( which he will not be doing if the father is Petyr)...he simply couldn't have lived with the truth. Anyway there was Harry the Heir.
• LF couldn't have secretly slept with Lysa either as Jon was aware of their past relationship and would've taken some measures. Moreover, LF himself regards Lysa ugly (as told to the Imp).
• Little Robert is weak due to his old father's seed being weak and his last words about the seed being weak is a reference to Robert Baratheon's byblows.
• LF having no hesitation in putting  Little Robert's life (the sweetsleep episode) is proof enough.
• Finally, LF plans to eliminate the sick boy (who he thinks will die soon with a little help) to get HtH and Alaynesa to command the Vale as his puppets.

It's been repeatedly confirmed that folks are easily able to be sneaky and sleep around in KL. Jon didn't keep Lysa in dungeon. Jon was aware of their past relationship, yet let Lysa still manipulated him into bringing LF into KL anyhow. LF slept with Lysa. Confirmed. He's not letting his master plan go awry because, ewww, Lysa's grody. LF's awful and I don't think he has any problem killing his own possible inconvenient children.

14 hours ago, zandru said:

I'm beginning to think that most everything that could be said already has, but let me repeat a few items which indicate that Petyr Baelish never had sex with Lysa while she was married to Jon Arryn:

• Her growing unattractiveness. Petyr never had any great desire for Lysa, although as a boy, he'd take whatever he could get (heh, heh). Lysa's repeated pregnancies contributed towards weight gain and lack of self-care, and as we all know, 95% of romantic love is based on the beauty of the female.
• Lysa's loud concept of "making love." Any furtive relationship would be revealed by Lysa's nonstop screaming and yelling. Also, to one who has presumeably trained his 'hos to do likewise, having a paramour who acted like a 'ho might be a real turnoff.
• What benefit, other than a little physical release, would a tryst with Lysa yield? Why would Baelish need to do it with a homely screamer, married to the powerful Hand of the King no less, when he had all his whorehouses that he could do "QC" on, with much more attractive and safe products?
• Getting caught with Lysa would put an end to his cushy position as Master of Coin and at the very least, all his future prospects. That is, if it didn't end his very life.

So, even though we may be enticed to believe Robert Arryn is a more successful Lysa/Petyr offspring, the evidence says "no way."

LF slept with her anyways. People sleep with people they think are unattractive. Especially if it's part of their dastardly evil plan to take over the world. It ain't the bar at 2:00am and the beer googles aren't strong enough. This feels a bit personal, but when people sleep together, there's different ways of going about that. Lysa wouldn't scream every. single. time. What benefit? Lysa said she manipulated Jon Arryn who was Hand in KL then he's doing the same in the Vale. LF manipulates Lysa, Lysa manipulates Jon. Some serious power there. Getting caught would be bad, but we've been told that people often don't get caught. Also, LF has lots of KL in his pocket and Varys apparently wasn't telling for whatever reason.