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Is it safe to assume that Littlefinger is Robert Arryn’s father?


James Steller

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7 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Those aren't mutually exclusive. Lysa needs any child, Jon's or one to pass off as Jon's, to continue to be Lady Arryn after old man Jon dies.

Ditto with Cersei,but she doesn't need to delude herself, especially if she believes the child binds her to a much desirable prize, Petyr.  She'll just lie, like she lied about the letter or about Tyrion implication in murders, she didn't believe them but she lied just fine.

 

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8 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Some parts don't work for me but it's a lot of fun! Tons of Lann the Clever in here, too.

Tons of Bael the Bard too and how his male DNA infiltrated the Stark DNA.
I can safely say that this theory where Petyr Baelish infiltrating House Arryn with his own DNA is a "The Bard, Bael"-ish thing to do lol.
Whether it is true or no, we'll see ... but don't discount the word-play.

But LF's DNA will never get pass Sansa. LF can manipulate Sweetrobin to steal Sansa away for himself, but SR is still too young to do anything with her. Sweetrobin will jump out the Moon Door before that happens.
Anyways be prepared for Tywin-Joanna-Aerys triangle with Harry-Sansa-Sweetrobin triangle in TWOW, brokered and manipulated by yours truly ... Little-Finger!

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On 7/9/2020 at 11:24 PM, corbon said:

... she raped Petyr ...

 

On 7/10/2020 at 4:59 AM, Lollygag said:

... Lysa apparently fooled LF into sleeping with her ...

 

No fair!! Poor Lysa.

Petyr was chasing both sisters at the same time, but he got further with Lysa because she let him, and Cat didn't. So Lysa knows he's not in an exclusive relationship with Cat - in fact, his relationship with Lysa is more advanced, and Cat publicly rejects him.

Petyr grew up with Lysa, so the most obvious expectation for her is that Petyr will always recognise her. Doubly so as she is a girl in love. So no fooling, she was just a bit naive about the effects of alcohol on Petyr. He only calls her 'Cat' right at the end. She didn't expect it.

As for Petyr, he is in love with Cat, but it becomes an obsession, an addiction, as we see through the books. When he can't get Cat, he needs a Cat substitute - so I'm pretty sure he did desire Lysa, and that's why he flirted and whispered with her at KL, and why he pursued the chance to marry her. He only gets rid of Lysa when he decides he has an even better Cat substitute in Sansa. But his obsession is for Cat, only Cat.

I'm really hoping Petyr meets Stoneheart.

 

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4 hours ago, frenin said:

Ditto with Cersei,but she doesn't need to delude herself, especially if she believes the child binds her to a much desirable prize, Petyr.  She'll just lie, like she lied about the letter or about Tyrion implication in murders, she didn't believe them but she lied just fine.

 

I don't know why you keep bringing up Cersei. They have completely different moral compasses, psychology, comfort zones and motivations. Cersei carefully controlled the father of her children to get off on duping Robert as a form of revenge and any sort of denial takes that away. It's also not in Cersei's character at all to feel that sort of guilt and while Lysa didn't like Jon, it took being triggered by taking Robert away for her to really act against him.

It's possible that LF is Robert's father. Otherwise writing all of the hints to the reader makes no sense at all.

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1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

 

 

No fair!! Poor Lysa.

Petyr was chasing both sisters at the same time, but he got further with Lysa because she let him, and Cat didn't. So Lysa knows he's not in an exclusive relationship with Cat - in fact, his relationship with Lysa is more advanced, and Cat publicly rejects him.

Petyr grew up with Lysa, so the most obvious expectation for her is that Petyr will always recognise her. Doubly so as she is a girl in love. So no fooling, she was just a bit naive about the effects of alcohol on Petyr. He only calls her 'Cat' right at the end. She didn't expect it.

As for Petyr, he is in love with Cat, but it becomes an obsession, an addiction, as we see through the books. When he can't get Cat, he needs a Cat substitute - so I'm pretty sure he did desire Lysa, and that's why he flirted and whispered with her at KL, and why he pursued the chance to marry her. He only gets rid of Lysa when he decides he has an even better Cat substitute in Sansa. But his obsession is for Cat, only Cat.

I'm really hoping Petyr meets Stoneheart.

 

I have a completely unprovable crackpot that LF worked his way to KL to get to people and resources to find out about more about those bastards and mistresses of Ned's to drive a wedge between him and Cat. The LF/Lysa/Jon in KL plan was really meant for LF/Cat/Ned in Winterfell, but LF found out the truth about Jon Snow (maybe ultimately unprovable), but it showed Ned in a much better light and resulted in LF's plan completely collapsing. I just can't believe for a moment that LF would leave Ned's bastards and mistresses out there hanging and not take advantage of that to get next to Cat like he did Lysa. I speculate that the realization that Cat was truly lost to him messed up LF and this was when his master plan, whatever it is, began to form.

Lysa was useful to LF and easily manipulated, but I like what you suggest here. I've also seen where people will get with a person because they remind them of someone they can't have, but the differences end up being all they see and it gradually turns to a love/hate thing, and then just a hate thing.

 

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2 hours ago, Lollygag said:

I don't know why you keep bringing up Cersei. They have completely different moral compasses, psychology, comfort zones and motivations. Cersei carefully controlled the father of her children to get off on duping Robert as a form of revenge and any sort of denial takes that away. It's also not in Cersei's character at all to feel that sort of guilt and while Lysa didn't like Jon, it took being triggered by taking Robert away for her to really act against him.

It's possible that LF is Robert's father. Otherwise writing all of the hints to the reader makes no sense at all.

Because every motivation Lysa has, Cersei has them too.

There is absolutely nothing, and that includes being Lady of the Eyrie, that Lysa desires more than being with Petyr and having his children, if there was a tiny chance of that to be possible, she would've jumped on that. Yet, she absolutely believes otherwise, leaving no room for interpretations.

 

As others have said, it's written to make us wonder but ultimately reject it.

 

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19 minutes ago, frenin said:

Because every motivation Lysa has, Cersei has them too.

There is absolutely nothing, and that includes being Lady of the Eyrie, that Lysa desires more than being with Petyr and having his children, if there was a tiny chance of that to be possible, she would've jumped on that. Yet, she absolutely believes otherwise, leaving no room for interpretations.

 

As others have said, it's written to make us wonder but ultimately reject it.

 

No. Lysa isn't motivated by revenge against Jon for loving another over her and the disrespect that brought which is the only reason Cersei made sure her kids were fathered by Jaime. You're a smarter poster than this and I'm surprised to hear this from you.

Lysa wants both Petyr and to be Lady Arryn. If you're suggesting that Lysa would give up being Lady Arryn to live as a disgraced nobody on Petyr's sheep shit farm, I can't disagree more. We saw through Catelyn how much she relished her status.

And to make us wonder it, it has to have been possible in the first place.

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and over there, beneath that bower, she and Lysa had played at kissing with Petyr.
She had not thought of that in years. How young they all had been—she no older than Sansa, Lysa younger than Arya, and Petyr younger still, yet eager. The girls had traded him between them, serious and giggling by turns. 

This was years earlier, when they were children playing children's games. Lysa was younger than Arya (9), so was Petyr. Cat was Sansa's age so 11.

There is no 'more advanced relationship' with Lysa - kids playing at kissing is not a relationship between teens. And Petyr was very clearly pursuing Cat, not Lysa, before she raped him.

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"How would you know? Were you there?" Lysa descended from the high seat, her skirts swirling. "Did you come with Lord Bracken and Lord Blackwood, the time they visited to lay their feud before my father? Lord Bracken's singer played for us, and Catelyn danced six dances with Petyr that night, six, I counted. When the lords began to argue my father took them up to his audience chamber, so there was no one to stop us drinking. Edmure got drunk, young as he was . . . and Petyr tried to kiss your mother, only she pushed him away. She laughed at him. He looked so wounded I thought my heart would burst, and afterward he drank until he passed out at the table. Uncle Brynden carried him up to bed before my father could find him like that. But you remember none of it, do you?" She looked down angrily. "Do you?"

She absolutely knew that he wanted Cat. 6 dances, a failed attempt to kiss, and his wounded look. Then drinking himself insensible.
Were there dances then with Lysa? An attempt to kiss Lysa? No, not even in Lysa's biased account. There is no 'relationship' with Lysa, not even in her own head. Just her feelings for him, and his obvious feelings for Cat.

Lysa absolutely knew he wanted Cat, not her, she just wanted him anyway. And got him. When he was passed out drunk and carried to bed.

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That was the night I stole up to his bed to give him comfort. I bled, but it was the sweetest hurt. He told me he loved me then, but he called me Cat, just before he fell back to sleep. 

The passed out drunk boy was carried up to bed, the older girl stole up to his bed and fucked him but he wasn't competent enough to tell her apart from her sister and clearly believed himself to be sleeping with Cat.

That is unequivocally rape and were the sexes reversed anyone trying to argue it was not would be vilified.

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Littlefinger let Lysa sob against his chest for a moment, then put his hands on her arms and kissed her lightly. "My sweet silly jealous wife," he said, chuckling. "I've only loved one woman, I promise you."
Lysa Arryn smiled tremulously. "Only one? Oh, Petyr, do you swear it? Only one?"
"Only Cat." He gave her a short, sharp shove

Petyr never wanted Lysa. He used her for her patronage - there were whispers and promises and frustrated physical yearnings (on Lysa's part), but he never wanted her. Only Cat.

 

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6 hours ago, corbon said:

This was years earlier, when they were children playing children's games. Lysa was younger than Arya (9), so was Petyr. Cat was Sansa's age so 11.

There is no 'more advanced relationship' with Lysa - kids playing at kissing is not a relationship between teens. And Petyr was very clearly pursuing Cat, not Lysa, before she raped him.

So when did Petyr change? Any evidence of that? When did he stop going after Lysa? Quotes?

I don't see change, I see behaviours carried forward consistently. Cat consistently pushes Petyr away. Lysa is consistently loving and willing. And Petyr willfully continues a relationship with Lysa her entire life - romances her, pretends to be in love with her. It's exploitative on his part, but I think she fills a Cat shaped hole in his life. (Look how quickly he latched onto Sansa. Compare with Jorah's behaviour with Lynesse/Dany/silver-haired-whore.)

Petyr boasts he took both girls' virginities. And eventually Lysa got pregnant. So he did freely have sex with her, probably many times.

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She absolutely knew that he wanted Cat. 6 dances, a failed attempt to kiss, and his wounded look. Then drinking himself insensible.
Were there dances then with Lysa? An attempt to kiss Lysa? No, not even in Lysa's biased account. There is no 'relationship' with Lysa, not even in her own head. Just her feelings for him, and his obvious feelings for Cat.

Lysa only tells us about the six dances with Cat, there would have been plenty more. Also a dance does not mean an exclusive romantic relationship - look at Sansa's dances in KL. No wonder if Cat chose to dance a bit more with her old friend Petyr and a bit less with a bunch of random men.

Lysa knows Petyr has feeling for Cat, but remember this: she thinks Cat is a cold-hearted flirt, seducing Petyr away from her. And the same with Sansa "... You enticed him, just as your mother did that night in Riverrun, with her smiles and her dancing...." Consistent behaviour, see?

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Lysa absolutely knew he wanted Cat, not her, she just wanted him anyway. And got him. When he was passed out drunk and carried to bed.

The passed out drunk boy was carried up to bed, the older girl stole up to his bed and fucked him but he wasn't competent enough to tell her apart from her sister and clearly believed himself to be sleeping with Cat.

He only called her Cat after the event. Reasons for Lysa to think Petyr would recognise her:

  • They have known each for years; they grew up together.
  • She is ignorant about the effects of alcohol.
  • She is a fool in love.
  • She believes that Petyr truly loved her ("Only one? Oh, Petyr, do you swear it? Only one?")
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That is unequivocally rape

Because Lysa did not obtain proper consent, I do get it. But I feel it's the wrong approach. Firstly - Lysa is a minor, she acted innocently, she believed she would be recognised and wanted, and she had no education in relationships and rights. She needed help, not condemnation. Secondly, if we don't excuse people like Lysa, rape becomes a vast category, including her, the Mountain, the Dothraki, slavers, blood-crazed soldiers - you can see how Lysa is a bit of an outlier here. But here's the thing - the category 'rape' triggers feelings of anger and disgust because that's right for the group as a whole. Treating Lysa as a part of the category instead of an individual does her an injustice (actually it would be an excellent laywer's trick). Luckily we do have the the details of Lysa's case, so we don't need the category.

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and were the sexes reversed anyone trying to argue it was not would be vilified.

And this makes you angry? It's an injustice, so it should. But it's not Lysa's fault.

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Petyr never wanted Lysa. He used her for her patronage - there were whispers and promises and frustrated physical yearnings (on Lysa's part), but he never wanted her. Only Cat.

Lysa was beautiful, even more lovely than Cat she says. I believe her - she's a vain woman, and when beauty is important to a person, they get to be expert in the subject. So, young Petyr has the temptation of this lovely, willing girl with him always. Surprise, surprise, he gives in to temptation. He has consensual sex with her, just as he boasted to Tyrion.

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8 hours ago, corbon said:

The passed out drunk boy was carried up to bed, the older girl stole up to his bed and fucked him but he wasn't competent enough to tell her apart from her sister and clearly believed himself to be sleeping with Cat.

Don't really want to get into the did Lysa rape Petyr debate, but are we sure that this isn't a similar scenario to Robert calling Cersei Lyanna?

Just because Petyr called Lysa Cat after they consumated doesn't necessarily mean that he thought he was having sex with Cat, does it?  It's a fairly common trope for the man (or woman for that matter) to call out the name of the person they truly desire while making love or after making love to the person they have to settle for.

And I'm not necessarily sure that Lysa was any older than Petyr at the time (whether or not that would make a difference).  According to the wiki they are either the same age or Lysa is at most one to two years older.

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On 7/11/2020 at 9:51 PM, Lollygag said:

No. Lysa isn't motivated by revenge against Jon for loving another over her and the disrespect that brought which is the only reason Cersei made sure her kids were fathered by Jaime. You're a smarter poster than this and I'm surprised to hear this from you.

I didn't say that Lysa was motivated by revenge, I said that Cersei had Lysa's motivations, not the other way around.

 

On 7/11/2020 at 9:51 PM, Lollygag said:

Lysa wants both Petyr and to be Lady Arryn. If you're suggesting that Lysa would give up being Lady Arryn to live as a disgraced nobody on Petyr's sheep shit farm, I can't disagree more. We saw through Catelyn how much she relished her status.

No, I'm suggesting that Lysa can perfectly lie about the matter, just as Cersei lies about her kids and how Lysa shamelessly about the Lannister's involvement in old Jon's death. She can have it both. There is little need for her to delude herself-.

Cersei relished her status a lot, that didn't change.

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2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

So when did Petyr change? Any evidence of that? When did he stop going after Lysa? Quotes?

When did he start?? It doesn't seem like it was when they were kids rather than when he went full Gatsby, until that we don't have much to say he was doing more than innocently playing with Lysa while pursuing Cat.

 

2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Lysa was beautiful, even more lovely than Cat she says. I believe her - she's a vain woman, and when beauty is important to a person, they get to be expert in the subject. So, young Petyr has the temptation of this lovely, willing girl with him always. Surprise, surprise, he gives in to temptation. He has consensual sex with her, just as he boasted to Tyrion.

During how much time?? There was a interval of time between them seeing each other again after the war and by that time, she would already have a couple of miscarriages and stillbirths that would have started to leave a toll on her body, he would have given in to temptation as he did in the Eyrie, because Lysa opened him doors.

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On 7/8/2020 at 7:15 PM, James Steller said:

Also, Robert doesn’t resemble either of his parents. He doesn’t have Tully features or Arryn features. We know that Tullys are blue eyed redheads while Arryns are basically Aryans (based on how Jon and Harry the Heir look). Robert is a tiny boy with a very slight frame and brown hair. Petyr Baelish has the exact same body type with dark hair (we can assume that dark + red = brown). They’re both short and weak compared to Jon Arryn being in robust health into his 60s. I‘m beginning to think I was too tentative with my thread title. Far as I’m concerned, Littlefinger IS Sweetrobin’s father.

Hoster Tully had brown hair (Catelyn XI, AGoT 71). Sweetrobin's hair color could easily have come down from his grandfather who probably got the hair from his non-Tully parent. 

I think there's a bigger chance of LF being Hoster Tully's son than Sweetrobin being LF's.

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1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Hoster Tully had brown hair (Catelyn XI, AGoT 71). Sweetrobin's hair color could easily have come down from his grandfather who probably got the hair from his non-Tully parent. 

I think there's a bigger chance of LF being Hoster Tully's son than Sweetrobin being LF's.

Hmm, so much of this depends on just how far in the weeds GRRM went with the genetics of hair color.  The fact that Ned solves one of the first mysteries in the books with a tome about the hair color of Baratheons and Lannisters written by Grand Maester Malleon (i.e. melanin) makes me think pretty far.

I didn't realize Hoster had brown hair.  Yes, that does make it possible assuming that she inherited a brown hair gene from her father and a red haired gene from her mother, and this pairing of genes was expressed as a mixture.

In this scenario, any child of Lysa would have a 25 % chance of having plain old brown hair.  With Jon Arryn it couldnt' be any more than 25% because Jon Arryn was a blond so he'd have no "brown haired alleles" to contribute.

I had assumed that Hoster was auburn haired as well, like his brother, Brynden.  But the fact that Brynden does have auburn hair makes a bit of a wrinkle.  That raises the possibility that Cat inherited her auburn hair through a recessive "auburn hair gene" found in both Hoster and in her mother.  If that's the case, then Sweet Robin should either have auburn hair, or perhaps a blending of his father's blond hair and his mother's auburn hair.  But he should not have solid brown hair.  So I guess that begs the question, do we know the hair color of Cat's mom?

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1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

In this scenario, any child of Lysa would have a 25 % chance of having plain old brown hair.  With Jon Arryn it couldnt' be any more than 25% because Jon Arryn was a blond so he'd have no "brown haired alleles" to contribute.

I had assumed that Hoster was auburn haired as well, like his brother, Brynden.  But the fact that Brynden does have auburn hair makes a bit of a wrinkle.  That raises the possibility that Cat inherited her auburn hair through a recessive "auburn hair gene" found in both Hoster and in her mother.  If that's the case, then Sweet Robin should either have auburn hair, or perhaps a blending of his father's blond hair and his mother's auburn hair.  But he should not have solid brown hair.  So I guess that begs the question, do we know the hair color of Cat's mom?

You're trying too hard.

My point was that Sweetrobin isn't some anomaly in his family with the brown hair. Jon Arryn looked very Andal, but we don't know who his mother was. The Arryns could have married into a number of houses with dark hair. Ditto the Tullys. What if Hoster Tully's mother was a Blackwood or a Bracken or a Mallister? 

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On 7/8/2020 at 9:31 AM, James Steller said:

I think it’s a fair thing to think. Lysa would never admit it, maybe she wasn’t even sure, but I am convinced that she and Littlefinger spent her marriage cuckolding Jon. Plus Jon has a bad track record with procreation. I’m convinced that he was sterile and Littlefinger is the real father of Robert.

I think GRRM has deliberately hinted at that but left it unresolved. I think Sweetrobin's small size and backward emotional development is a sort of horrible dig at Littlefinger, a parody of him, it does tend to imply he could be the father.

But I personally think Lysa's miscarriages were caused by the abortificant drug which has somehow affected her system. She nearly died from that event so its quite possible her uterus or ovaries were scarred from infection or it was something that stays in the system to do damage. Jon managed to impregnate his first wife, she died with a stillborn child, so he is not entirely infertile. The second wife's childlessness could have been her own infertility or problems on both sides. I think there is a bit of an idea that age or inherently wonky sperm could have caused low fertility and foetuses that had difficulty coming to term or surviving infancy (if not lavished with attention, would Robert Arryn have survived?).

Now that I think about it, I doubt Petyr would have risked an affair with Lysa even though she would have been willing. He would not have trusted her to keep the secret. And as he didn't want her, only power, he was better off milking her for advancement through Jon's patronage until the point where it was useful to his plans to change tack and marry her. I don't think he'd get any satisfaction from planting a cuckoo in Jon Arryn nest, he wants power for himself.

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On 7/13/2020 at 3:14 PM, frenin said:

I didn't say that Lysa was motivated by revenge, I said that Cersei had Lysa's motivations, not the other way around.

I misread that. But my point still stands. They aren't comparable in principle. Cersei knows her childrens' parentage and with intention lasting 15 years or so, made sure her kids were fathered by Jaime. She gave zero cares that her kids were bastards and had no claim. Jon accepted that Robert was his meaning he and Lysa were sleeping together at the approximate time Robert was conceived. If she was also sleeping with LF at the time (GRRM's heavy-handed suggestion that Robert may be LF's says it's at least possible), then Lysa not only didn't set out on any intent, she actually doesn't know who his father is. And then we're told with the subtlety of an anvil upside the head that Lysa is delusional when it comes to Robert and LF.

On 7/13/2020 at 3:14 PM, frenin said:

No, I'm suggesting that Lysa can perfectly lie about the matter, just as Cersei lies about her kids and how Lysa shamelessly about the Lannister's involvement in old Jon's death. She can have it both. There is little need for her to delude herself-.

Cersei relished her status a lot, that didn't change.

Again, not comparable. Cersei had Jaime and her status at the same time, just as she wanted. She never wanted to run off and be with Jaime out in the open. Lysa complained that she had to stay away from LF and keep them secret and she hated it. She didn't get the chance to have both until like 2 decades later and a lot of pieces happened to fall into place for that to happen.

AND YET AGAIN, IT'S WRITTEN OVER AND OVER AND OVER THROUGHOUT 5000+ PAGES OF BOOK THAT LYSA IS SEVERELY DELUSIONAL WHEN IT COMES TO ROBERT AND LF.

If you don't like that Robert is LF's and you won't go along with it unless there's a DNA test or GRRM outright says he's LF's, then just say that. Quit with the nonsense arguments trying to establish that it's not even possible especially when GRRM was one who brought it up in the first place.

I'm done.

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If Jon Arryn doesn't have brown hair, it's not unlikely, since brown hair gene is dominant, blond hair and red hair genes are recessive. A recessive gene won't express itself if it is associated with a dominant gene, but the person concerned can transmit it to his children. Red hair gene is the most recessive one, if it's not associated with an other red hair gene, the child will express the dominant feature. I don't remember what Jon Arryn's hair color was, if he's blond then Robert can't be his kid, he can only father blond hair children in that case.

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9 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Cersei knows her childrens' parentage and with intention lasting 15 years or so, made sure her kids were fathered by Jaime.

Lysa could've done that too.

 

9 hours ago, Lollygag said:

She gave zero cares that her kids were bastards and had no claim.

Well, she did care about her children claims but she hoped that no one would ever discover the trick and she would pass Jaime's children as bastards. Again, same case with Lysa.

 

9 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Jon accepted that Robert was his meaning he and Lysa were sleeping together at the approximate time Robert was conceived.

Well, ofc that Bobby and Cersei would be sleeping together around the time the children were conceived, that's why no one suspected about the timing and focused in Mendelian problems. 

again, same case with Lysa.

 

9 hours ago, Lollygag said:

If she was also sleeping with LF at the time (GRRM's heavy-handed suggestion that Robert may be LF's says it's at least possible), then Lysa not only didn't set out on any intent, she actually doesn't know who his father is.

Well, no. She can have a children by LF and then once she's sure she's pregnant, have sex with Jon Arryn. It's exactly what anyone would do in her situation and that's what Cersei did.

 

9 hours ago, Lollygag said:

And then we're told with the subtlety of an anvil upside the head that Lysa is delusional when it comes to Robert and LF.

She's delusional when it comes to herrelationship with Petyr, she's not delusional about her possible children however.

 

9 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Cersei had Jaime and her status at the same time, just as she wanted. She never wanted to run off and be with Jaime out in the open.

How is that different from the Lysa you're painting??

 

9 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Lysa complained that she had to stay away from LF and keep them secret and she hated it. She didn't get the chance to have both until like 2 decades later and a lot of pieces happened to fall into place for that to happen.

The same complaints Lysa have, are the same of Cersei's, in fact their forbidden relationship is a recurring theme that drives the twins apart in ASOS and AFFC.

Lysa would get the chance to meet Petyr in secret, so hidden,  the pieces that had fall are irrelevant, Lysa gets to kill her husband and now has the chance to have it all, yet she still believes the children a true Arryn, it's odd that she gets to delude about that while being perfectly able to lie about her husband's death.

The fact that Lysa makes clear that there was no encounter and were all whispers and the likes tells us more than enough.

 

 

9 hours ago, Lollygag said:

AND YET AGAIN, IT'S WRITTEN OVER AND OVER AND OVER THROUGHOUT 5000+ PAGES OF BOOK THAT LYSA IS SEVERELY DELUSIONAL WHEN IT COMES TO ROBERT AND LF.

Nope, it's written that she's delusional over her relationship with Petyr and is delusional about Robin's growth and character, not about who the father is. She seems to have that perfectly clear.

THERE IS NO REASON FOR LYSA TO DELUDE HERSELF ABOUT THE PATERNITY OF HER SON.

She should be quite as delusional with Arryn's death, it perfectly ties with both Robin and Petyr and would destroy the three of them, yet surprisingly enough she isn't. 

 

 

9 hours ago, Lollygag said:

If you don't like that Robert is LF's and you won't go along with it unless there's a DNA test or GRRM outright says he's LF's, then just say that. Quit with the nonsense arguments trying to establish that it's not even possible especially when GRRM was one who brought it up in the first place.

I don't care one way or the other, i don't find it possible with the data we have so far. And you're twisting the facts to fit your own idea. 

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2 hours ago, Willam Stark said:

If Jon Arryn doesn't have brown hair, it's not unlikely, since brown hair gene is dominant, blond hair and red hair genes are recessive. A recessive gene won't express itself if it is associated with a dominant gene, but the person concerned can transmit it to his children. Red hair gene is the most recessive one, if it's not associated with an other red hair gene, the child will express the dominant feature. I don't remember what Jon Arryn's hair color was, if he's blond then Robert can't be his kid, he can only father blond hair children in that case.

I have to admit in googling this red haired auburn thing, I 've gotten pretty confused.

From what I understand true red hair happens when you inherit two broken melanocortin-1 receptor genes.  One from each parent.  If you inherit only one of these broken genes, then this still causes a redening of your hair.  This is what causes Auburn hair if the other parent has brown hair (or strawberry blond hair if the other parent has blond hair). 

So if Lysa inherited one nonbroken melanocortin-1 gene and one broken one then this causes her to have auburn hair.  So if Hoster was brown haired, he probably had two nonbroken mc1 genes.  So Lysa must have inherited her broken mc1 gene from her mother.  Meaning that her mother was either a full red head or had auburn hair as well.  (Since all three Tully children had Auburn hair it probably means Lysa's mom was a full red head, two broken mc1 genes.)

I think this means that it's a 50/50 shot (not 25% chance like i thought above) that Lysa would pass on the broken mc 1 gene to her child (the red haired gene).  In this situation since Jon Arryn had blond hair this usually results in a comingling of the hair colors and is presented as Strawberry blond.

But if she passes on the non broken mc gene, (the brown haired gene) with a blond haired father, then I think that would result in a brown haired child. 

Unless Lysa carries the recessive gene responsible for blond hair.  If she does then .... ugh this is making my head hurt.

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