Is it safe to assume that Littlefinger is Robert Arryn’s father?

[HoodedCrow]

I don’t think Martin’s world goes that far into genetics. He is a science fiction and fantasy writer, so micro knowledge like that is possible, but not likely. Remember his remarks about inventing a language. He said something about only needing to make up seven words for one of them.

its going to be more and more important to understand genetics, though:), IRL.

 

[Lollygag]

Agree that I don't think GRRM is paying attention to genetics beyond what's generally empirically observable. Lysa has red/brown hair and Jon sandy blonde, so I think Robert's brown hair could well have come from Lysa with the red part being missing. But his having a hair color that neither of his parents have is a way to get readers to pay attention and ask questions along with the other hints about LF being the father. Like everything else, I don't think the hair proves anything either way.

[frenin]

9 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I have to admit in googling this red haired auburn thing, I 've gotten pretty confused.

From what I understand true red hair happens when you inherit two broken melanocortin-1 receptor genes.  One from each parent.  If you inherit only one of these broken genes, then this still causes a redening of your hair.  This is what causes Auburn hair if the other parent has brown hair (or strawberry blond hair if the other parent has blond hair). 

So if Lysa inherited one nonbroken melanocortin-1 gene and one broken one then this causes her to have auburn hair.  So if Hoster was brown haired, he probably had two nonbroken mc1 genes.  So Lysa must have inherited her broken mc1 gene from her mother.  Meaning that her mother was either a full red head or had auburn hair as well.  (Since all three Tully children had Auburn hair it probably means Lysa's mom was a full red head, two broken mc1 genes.)

I think this means that it's a 50/50 shot (not 25% chance like i thought above) that Lysa would pass on the broken mc 1 gene to her child (the red haired gene).  In this situation since Jon Arryn had blond hair this usually results in a comingling of the hair colors and is presented as Strawberry blond.

But if she passes on the non broken mc gene, (the brown haired gene) with a blond haired father, then I think that would result in a brown haired child. 

Unless Lysa carries the recessive gene responsible for blond hair.  If she does then .... ugh this is making my head hurt.

You know that Martin is not thinking that hard right?? In fairness not even the Baratheons could have those super genes, because recesive genes are a thing, if we start thinking about the implications of Martin's words, the whol male population of the Stormlands would look like Robert and Renly. 

It's pointless thinking too hard about genetics, especially when there is so much info in the air.

[Nittanian]

19 hours ago, HoodedCrow said:

I don’t think Martin’s world goes that far into genetics. He is a science fiction and fantasy writer, so micro knowledge like that is possible, but not likely. Remember his remarks about inventing a language. He said something about only needing to make up seven words for one of them.

Yep!

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1260

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He was asked if the trait of being a warg ran in the Stark family.

"I don't know if I want to get into genetics - this is fantasy, not scifi" He replied

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1147/

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This is the Middle Ages. They don't know about DNA. Their knowledge of genetics revolves around theories about a person's "blood."

If I start worrying about Brienne's chromosomes, the next step is trying to figure out the aerodynamic properties of dragons, and then the whole thing falls apart. Brienne is a huge, homely woman, a freak of nature by the standards of her own world and times... they can't explain her, and neither should I.

 

[HoodedCrow]

Martin is such a good world creator that he makes you believe. As a fantasy writer, that is the job!

He leaves us to wonder if SR is Littlefinger’s son. The thing is, he could change his mind:) I wonder if he flips a coin of destiny.

So yes, he sets up story lines and family traits that are important to tell, with implied or suggested genetics. Even hard core sci-fi doesn’t usually do more than a global explanation, but that is possibly a consequence of my reading choices.Thanks for tracking down the quotes!

 

[Frey family reunion]

21 hours ago, Nittanian said:

Yep!

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1260

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1147/

 

Sigh, clearly you guys don’t know how to speak GRRM, yet particularly deflecting GRRM.  Allow me to translate.

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He was asked if being a warg ran in the Stark family.

”I don’t know if I want to get into genetics - this is fantasy not science fiction.”

Notice that George doesn’t actually answer the question.  The questioner wasn’t actually asking about genetics, just asking if there was a history of wargs in the Stark family.  George instead transforms the question to genetic inheritance of magic.  

And then he still fails to answer the unasked question about genetics.  Just indicating that he didn’t want to discuss genetic inheritability about his characters, using the excuse that this was a fantasy series.

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This is the Middle Ages.  They don’t know about DNA.  Their knowledge of genetics revolves around theories about a person’s “blood”.

Translation:  I don’t have an omniscient narrator in my story.  You learn about the story through the Points of View of my characters.  My characters don’t know about DNA.  So I’m not going to now act as the omniscient narrator and explain away how these powers are passed on.  You’re going to have to figure it out based on the knowledge possessed by the characters.  They just believe certain things are passed through bloodlines.  You are going to have to figure things out based on their limited knowledge and observations. 

Then George further changes the subject to Brienne.

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If I start worrying about Brienne’s chromosomes

Who brought up Brienne’s chromosomes?

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The next step is trying to figure out the aerodynamic properties of dragons, and the whole thing falls apart.

I don’t know the exact mechanism as to how magical abilities are passed genetically just like I don’t know the exact way that a giant flying lizard could stay up in the air.  So yes there is a limit, but keep in mind that GRRM has also demanded that all depictions of his dragons be of the two legged variety, because nowhere in the animal kingdom does a winged animal have four legs.  The wings are in actuality modified arms.  So GRRM does likewise with his dragons.  

As an aside, by bringing up Brienne he may be dropping a hint that there is something special about her bloodline. 

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Brienne is a huge, homely woman, a freak of nature by the standards of her world and time ... they can’t explain her, and neither will I.

There is a genetic reason that Brienne is the way she is.  But the characters in my story don’t have the scientific understanding of why she is the way she is, so since they can’t explain it within the story, I’m not going to explain it outside of the story and act as an omniscient narrator.  You’re going to have to piece it together on your own.

[Frey family reunion]

On 7/16/2020 at 1:28 AM, frenin said:

You know that Martin is not thinking that hard right??

Nah, he is.

[Megorova]

Harrold Hardyng, who said to look like young Jon Arryn, is a blue-eyed blond. Lysa Tully also was blue-eyed. The color of Robert's eyes was purposefully not described, because it isn't blue. And two parents with blue-eyes can't have a child that is not blue-eyed. Lysa's hair is auburn, and Jon was blond, while Robert's hair is brown. Petyr Baelish has dark hair and grey-green eyes. Robert's hair is dark like Petyr's, and his eyes are, most likely, also colored like Petyr's. And both of them are short. Furthermore, at the time of Robert's conception (early 291) both Lysa and Petyr were living at King's Landing. Thus, Robert is Petyr's child, not Jon Arryn's.

[corbon]

On 7/22/2020 at 4:10 AM, Megorova said:

Harrold Hardyng, who said to look like young Jon Arryn, is a blue-eyed blond. Lysa Tully also was blue-eyed. The color of Robert's eyes was purposefully not described, because it isn't blue.

Not known.

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And two parents with blue-eyes can't have a child that is not blue-eyed. Lysa's hair is auburn, and Jon was blond, while Robert's hair is brown. Petyr Baelish has dark hair and grey-green eyes.

GRRMs genetics don't work precisely like ours.

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Robert's hair is dark like Petyr's, and his eyes are, most likely, also colored like Petyr's.

No, its brown. Not dark brown, as, for example, Lemore's hair is described. It is described differently than Petyrs, who is 'dark'. It may be similar, the base description does not indicate this though. His eyes are not described. Its possible they are similar to Petyr's, but not determined
And as noted by @Alexis-something-Rose, Hoster had brown hair. So there is nothing out of place in his grandson having the same colour hair. Robert's genetic options from Lysa include brown hair, Petyr is not needed.

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And both of them are short.

Robert is not just short, he's spindly, has a concave chest and a small belly. He's a sickly, genetically weak child. The only commonality with Petyr there is a lack of height. 

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Furthermore, at the time of Robert's conception (early 291) both Lysa and Petyr were living at King's Landing.

This is dubiously possible. It requires some really tight squeezing into one end of a timeline and some very odd language where 'less than three years' is used for a month over two years at most.
My misunderstanding of references used.
The statement is accurate. I don't believe its meaningful, but it is accurate.

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Thus, Robert is Petyr's child, not Jon Arryn's.

Some not-shown-dissimilars and conjectural stretches do not a case make.

[Angel Eyes]

1 hour ago, corbon said:

Robert is not just short, he's spindly, has a concave chest and a small belly. He's a sickly, genetically weak child.

 

And possibly lead-poisoned. Irritability, behavior problems, developmental delays, seizures; Robert has all these, alongside stunted growth and learning difficulties.

Source:

Medical News Today article

[corbon]

On 7/14/2020 at 6:55 AM, Frey family reunion said:

Don't really want to get into the did Lysa rape Petyr debate, but are we sure that this isn't a similar scenario to Robert calling Cersei Lyanna?

Yes, we are sure.
Robert was drunk, but he initiated sex (came to her, at least) with the woman he had just married. That he calls Lyanna's name in his drunken state is not an indicator that he truly thought he was fucking Lyanna. He'd just married Cersei and expected to bed her that night well before he was drunk.

Petyr was passed out drunk, carried up to bed. Lysa snuck into his bed and fucked him. He called her Cat at the end. At no stage is there any evidence he knew who she was or ever expected to sleep with her. He was incapacitated in his own bed and she came to him in that state and fucked him. 

Its a very very different thing.

On 7/14/2020 at 6:55 AM, Frey family reunion said:

Just because Petyr called Lysa Cat after they consumated doesn't necessarily mean that he thought he was having sex with Cat, does it?  It's a fairly common trope for the man (or woman for that matter) to call out the name of the person they truly desire while making love or after making love to the person they have to settle for.

Thats possible. But the evidence we have, the literary clues that GRRM has given us, is that he was incapacitated (passed out drunk and carried up to bed) and she snuck into his bed and fucked him. He called her Cat at the end. He was incapacitated at the start, she initiated, there's no sign he ever knew who she actually was at the time. 

On 7/14/2020 at 6:55 AM, Frey family reunion said:

And I'm not necessarily sure that Lysa was any older than Petyr at the time (whether or not that would make a difference).  According to the wiki they are either the same age or Lysa is at most one to two years older.

Yes, they are close in age, and she is older. No matter the date, she will always be older than him.

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How young they all had been—she no older than Sansa, Lysa younger than Arya (9), and Petyr younger still, 

 

On 7/14/2020 at 7:24 AM, frenin said:

When did he start?? It doesn't seem like it was when they were kids rather than when he went full Gatsby, until that we don't have much to say he was doing more than innocently playing with Lysa while pursuing Cat.

Exacty. There is no evidence, even from Lysa, that Littlefinger ever pursued her before she married Jon and gave him patronage. 9 year olds playing kissing games where the boy tries to kiss both girls is not a romantic pursuit and Lysa is very clear that Littlefinger was ardently pursuing Cat as a teen and not her.

On 7/14/2020 at 7:33 AM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Hoster Tully had brown hair (Catelyn XI, AGoT 71). Sweetrobin's hair color could easily have come down from his grandfather who probably got the hair from his non-Tully parent. 

Thanks.

[Colonel Green]

On 7/15/2020 at 9:04 AM, Lollygag said:

I misread that. But my point still stands. They aren't comparable in principle. Cersei knows her childrens' parentage and with intention lasting 15 years or so, made sure her kids were fathered by Jaime. She gave zero cares that her kids were bastards and had no claim. Jon accepted that Robert was his meaning he and Lysa were sleeping together at the approximate time Robert was conceived. If she was also sleeping with LF at the time (GRRM's heavy-handed suggestion that Robert may be LF's says it's at least possible), then Lysa not only didn't set out on any intent, she actually doesn't know who his father is. And then we're told with the subtlety of an anvil upside the head that Lysa is delusional when it comes to Robert and LF.

Lysa wants Littlefinger's child.

If she was sleeping with Littlefinger at the time Robert was conceived, she would know that it was a possibility he was the father.  And if Robert's appearance is such a dead giveaway that his father is Littlefinger, Lysa, of all people, would recognize that.

If anything, Lysa would be absolutely certain that Robert was Littlefinger's, not deluding herself that he wasn't.

[Frey family reunion]

On 7/21/2020 at 11:10 AM, Megorova said:

Harrold Hardyng, who said to look like young Jon Arryn, is a blue-eyed blond. Lysa Tully also was blue-eyed. The color of Robert's eyes was purposefully not described, because it isn't blue. And two parents with blue-eyes can't have a child that is not blue-eyed. Lysa's hair is auburn, and Jon was blond, while Robert's hair is brown. Petyr Baelish has dark hair and grey-green eyes. Robert's hair is dark like Petyr's, and his eyes are, most likely, also colored like Petyr's. And both of them are short. Furthermore, at the time of Robert's conception (early 291) both Lysa and Petyr were living at King's Landing. Thus, Robert is Petyr's child, not Jon Arryn's.

I agree that Sweet Robin's eyes are going to be the giveaway.  If they aren't blue than Sweet Robin is probably not Jon Arryn's child.  I would note, however, that if you look at Amok's portraits of the characters, it looks like she made Sweet Robin with blue eyes (very dark blue though).  And I believe GRRM gave her fairly detailed descriptions of the characters.

[Megorova]

39 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I would note, however, that if you look at Amok's portraits of the characters, it looks like she made Sweet Robin with blue eyes (very dark blue though).  And I believe GRRM gave her fairly detailed descriptions of the characters.

Two blue-eyed parents can't have a child that isn't blue-eyed, though if one of the parents is blue-eyed (like Lysa is) and the other has green-grey eyes (like Littlefinger), then the child's eye color could be - blue (dark or light), grey, green, grey-green, grey-blue. Even though LF's eyes are grey-green, he can be a carrier of "blue-eye-genes", though because green "genes" are more dominant than blue "genes" the resulting color is green. And he can have blue-eyed children, even though he himself isn't blue-eyed.

And about that picture (Robert's by Amok) - there's a lot of blue on it, don't you think that it was intentional?

What looks like blue color, isn't necessary blue. Like Young Griff's eyes "looked" blue, but only when his hair was also colored blue.

[Frey family reunion]

Just now, Megorova said:

Two blue-eyed parents can't have a child that isn't blue-eyed, though if one of the parents is blue-eyed (like Lysa is) and the other has green-grey eyes (like Littlefinger), then the child's eye color could be - blue (dark or light), grey, green, grey-green, grey-blue. Even though LF's eyes are grey-green, he can be a carrier of "blue-eye-genes", though because green "genes" are more dominant than blue "genes" the resulting color is green. And he can have blue-eyed children, even though he himself isn't blue-eyed.

And about that picture (Robert's by Amok) - there's a lot of blue on it, don't you think that it was intentional?

What looks like blue color, isn't necessary blue. Like Young Griff's eyes "looked" blue, but only when his hair was also colored blue.

You could be right.  It looks blue to me, but I agree it's hard to tell.

[Megorova]

@Frey family reunion

Varys on Amok's picture is placed on purple font. Maybe, to hide that his eyes are purple.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Varys

It's a clever trick. Possibly. Both Varys and Robert Arryn were placed on fonts with "suggestive" colors, in Robert's case to hide that his eyes aren't blue, and in Varys' case to hide that his eyes are purple. Or I'm wrong about it.

[Lollygag]

1 hour ago, Colonel Green said:

Lysa wants Littlefinger's child.

If she was sleeping with Littlefinger at the time Robert was conceived, she would know that it was a possibility he was the father.  And if Robert's appearance is such a dead giveaway that his father is Littlefinger, Lysa, of all people, would recognize that.

If anything, Lysa would be absolutely certain that Robert was Littlefinger's, not deluding herself that he wasn't.

Lysa does want LF's child badly, but we also see through different POVs that she relishes her position of Lady Arryn and without having Jon's heir, she's a disgraced nothing. She's not been willing to give up any of the perks of being Lady Arryn for LF's sheep shit farm. I'd take Lysa more seriously if we had any indication that she was trying to convince LF to run off together where they could just be happy. But it looks like Lysa never made a major move to be with LF in any real way until her position as Lady Arryn was safe. Lysa screams her love for LF, but her actions don't measure up to them. She's not the only character who does that. 

I don't think Robert's appearance is a dead give away as to his parentage as his brown hair might come from Lysa's red-brown hair. It could go either way, but GRRM clearly wants us to question it.

[S. D]

Nope, he is Jon Arryn's baby

[Colonel Green]

On 8/3/2020 at 6:58 PM, Lollygag said:

Lysa does want LF's child badly, but we also see through different POVs that she relishes her position of Lady Arryn and without having Jon's heir, she's a disgraced nothing. She's not been willing to give up any of the perks of being Lady Arryn for LF's sheep shit farm. I'd take Lysa more seriously if we had any indication that she was trying to convince LF to run off together where they could just be happy. But it looks like Lysa never made a major move to be with LF in any real way until her position as Lady Arryn was safe. Lysa screams her love for LF, but her actions don't measure up to them. She's not the only character who does that. 

I'm not sure what you mean here.  Obviously Lysa will publicly claim that Robert is Jon Arryn's child, just as she lies that the Lannisters were responsible for Jon Arryn's death.  But in the climax of ASOS she is not trying to hide any secrets, she is desperately begging Littlefinger to love her and making highly incriminating references without regard for anyone else overhearing; there is no reason, in this context, why she would pretend that Robert is not Littlefinger's son.

[zandru]

On 7/17/2020 at 9:04 AM, Frey family reunion said:

"There is a genetic reason that Brienne is the way she is.  But the characters in my story don’t have the scientific understanding of why she is the way she is, so since they can’t explain it within the story, I’m not going to explain it outside of the story and act as an omniscient narrator. "  -- George RR

Well, we the readers DO know that Brienne patterned her new shield after one that she saw sitting ancient and abandoned in the armory on Tarth: a great tree after sunset, with a shooting star passing overhead. The sigil that Ser Duncan the Tall used.

Same logic for Hodor, of course. But there would be little point in nursing ambiguity for these particular characters. By muddying the waters around "Sweetrobin" Arryn, maybe Littlefinger will come in for a big shock at some point in the tale. No, not that Petyr Baelish was little Robert's father; that maybe Lysa took up with a kitchen drudge or stable boy or something. Note that this isn't a serious conspiracy theory, just a potential way that George RR might pull the rug out from under us -- and of course, his characters. How he loves to upend their lives!