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GRRRM rewriting after season 8?


Amris

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On 6/27/2021 at 6:51 PM, Maia said:

While the ending of ASoS, great in itself, created some difficulties for a 5-10 year gap, GRRM still should have gone with it. Yes, it would have required certain contrivances, but no more than what was already present in the previous books. We didn't need to see a step-by-step of Tyrion becoming darker or Cersei frittering away her authority - we could have been presented with the results. 

What I find frustrating is that even though we're past the five year gap (most characters are at the point in the story where they would be had the FYG been implemented) GRRM is still struggling to finish the story. It seems he encountered new problems while trying to solve old ones.

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As I argued in reddit, TWoW should be written like ASoS and this time GRRM should manage to work out a time jump after TWoW. Otherwise, the series won't be finished in 7 books and the ending won't work. By the end of TWoW;

  1. Essos should be wrapped up.
  2. Dany should arrive to Westeros.
  3. The Wall should fall.
  4. No cliffhanger should be left.
  5. All the surviving POVs should be parked to proper places for the time jump to work.

This is the only way for me to forgive some 10+ years for writing TWoW. GRRM more or less did this with ASoS. The experience gained from the failed attempts for the 5 year gap should teach GRRM to do it right this time, especially since he is much closer to the ending he claims to be knowing all along.

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11 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

What I find frustrating is that even though we're past the five year gap (most characters are at the point in the story where they would be had the FYG been implemented) GRRM is still struggling to finish the story.

But the Stark kids aren't really where they would have been with the 5-year-gap - they are still children, far too young to plausibly play whatever roles GRRM initially envisioned for them. Frankly, even Jon and Dany are too young, but would have been borderline acceptable if it had been just the 2 of them. Yes, there were exceptional historical individuals who managed to accomplish great things while still in their teens, though in many cases looking a bit deeper it turns out that during their early forays they were just "the face", while experienced people in the background were doing  the actual work and making decisions. So, for the most part it was more of an on-the-job apprenticeship than independent achievement.  Obviously in a YA series a group of young teens and children saving or taking over the world could have worked even so, but nothing could be further from the tone that ASoIaF established previously and which made it great. IMHO, this is the main bone of contention for GRRM and the reason for his difficulties.

Another thing is that back in the 90-ties Martin was ahead of the pack with his depictions of women in the fantasy genre, but by now maybe he needs to re-think how they come across in aggregate. In every single case it can be justified, but when taken all together and with addition of FaB, novellas and whatever of his intent may be glimsed from the show, certain disappointing tendencies are impossible to overlook, IMHO. Not sure if he is aware of it, though, given that FaB and "Dance of the Dragons" novellas are actually a step back from the novels in that department.

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On 7/1/2021 at 10:34 AM, Mithras said:

As I argued in reddit, TWoW should be written like ASoS and this time GRRM should manage to work out a time jump after TWoW. Otherwise, the series won't be finished in 7 books and the ending won't work. By the end of TWoW;

  1. Essos should be wrapped up.
  2. Dany should arrive to Westeros.
  3. The Wall should fall.
  4. No cliffhanger should be left.
  5. All the surviving POVs should be parked to proper places for the time jump to work.

I don't think that a time jump is necessary after TWOW if everything in that list is accomplished.

Otherwise I agree. I actually think the cliffhanger should be the Wall falling down (I always imagined it as a funny but somber Dolorous Edd epilogue).

However, it is extremely hard to achieve and the main difficulty is wrapping up Dany's Essos' story. She needs to arrive to Westeros before the 2/3 of the book to make the conflict with Aegon meaningful, before the Wall falls.

 

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The show failed spectacularly, but that doesn't mean the plot twists themselves were bad. The before and after was botched, but you could see how Dany burning KL, etc., King Bran, might actually make sense on the page when developed in context.

George's writing problems, unfortunately, far predate the existence of the show. I think it's an unholy combination of pressure, distractions, and complexity.

P.S. I don't care how old the Stark kids are. There are many ways to handwave that, just like the army sizes, wilding population, etc., which are just random numbers that aren't actually important to the story.

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On 7/9/2021 at 1:58 AM, draft0 said:

P.S. I don't care how old the Stark kids are. There are many ways to handwave that, just like the army sizes, wilding population, etc., which are just random numbers that aren't actually important to the story.

In the case of army numbers, agreed, but when it comes to character ages, it's a little more complicated, because in some cases the situations are borderline unethical, like for example an 11 year-old Arya posing as a sex worker to lure a guardsman into a trap and kill him. But other than these few instances, it's fine and I agree that the ages might not really be that important.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Who says that if a time jump was going to happen that it would have to happen after TWOW? I can totally see George getting to a certain point in Winds (post battles of ice and fire, and after Dany's return, but pre westeros landing) and having the time jump in the damn middle of the book once the story is ready for it.  

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On 7/20/2021 at 11:40 AM, Lord Daedrunk said:

Who says that if a time jump was going to happen that it would have to happen after TWOW? I can totally see George getting to a certain point in Winds (post battles of ice and fire, and after Dany's return, but pre westeros landing) and having the time jump in the damn middle of the book once the story is ready for it.  

I think that 1) the first third of the Dothraki Sea plot, 2) Arianne's journey to meeting Aegon and 3) the Battles of Ice and Fire will all be happening at the same time. I feel like those plots were originally supposed to be in Dance (and should be put back into Dance in a special edition after the series).

I can see a time jump -- no longer than six months -- happening after those stories conclude.

However, there are problems with a time jump so early in a book. You can do with a time jump for Jaime/Brienne but then there's the matter of the story on the Wall, in King's Landing and then in Oldtown.

  • The Jon Snow cliffhanger in and of itself needs to be addressed sooner rather than later to avoid pissing off everyone who reads Winds...but then, to make matters more delicate, the Wall is in a state of chaos. You can't time jump pass that.
  • The naval battle between the Greyjoys and the Redwynes could feasibly be put off by having the Redwynes slowed down by inclement weather and by Aurane Waters in the Stepstones. Although a time jump with Sam works in theory, it doesn't work in reality: he's in Oldtown and the Greyjoys and Redwynes will soon be coming to blows. I expect the Redwynes to lose which would leave House Hightower left alone to defend Oldtown. Help for the Hightowers is on the way but...will it get there in time? The Tyrells are overextended what with the Shields lost, the lands watered by the Mander under attack, Margaery in Queen's Landing, Loras stuck on Dragonstone and then the problem presented by JonCon and Aegon at Storm's End. Time jump? I don't know. 
  • The King's Landing story is on a strict timetable: Nymeria and Myrcella will arrive a few days after the epilogue, Cersei's trial takes places the week after the epilogue and the trials of the Tyrell girls will take place two weeks after the epilogue (who knows how long those will take?). But I think that with the Lord Regent and the Grand Maester being found murdered, things are going to shift around a lot.

I think a time jump would work better if it took place between either:

  1. the last full chapter and the epilogue in Winds
  2. or between Winds and Dream

In any case, I think it's stupid to have the Wall fall and then time skip past the fallout so as to start fresh in Dream.

Just have the Wall fall in either the epilogue or the prologue in Dream...in any case, it needs to happen around the same time Daenerys arrives in Westeros.

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20 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

I think a time jump would work better if it took place between either:

  1. the last full chapter and the epilogue in Winds
  2. or between Winds and Dream

In any case, I think it's stupid to have the Wall fall and then time skip past the fallout so as to start fresh in Dream.

Just have the Wall fall in either the epilogue or the prologue in Dream...in any case, it needs to happen around the same time Daenerys arrives in Westeros.

I definitely agree with your post and would guess/prefer option 1. I don't think a time jump would be possible until at least 90% of the way through Winds. 

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21 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

I think that 1) the first third of the Dothraki Sea plot, 2) Arianne's journey to meeting Aegon and 3) the Battles of Ice and Fire will all be happening at the same time. I feel like those plots were originally supposed to be in Dance (and should be put back into Dance in a special edition after the series).

I can see a time jump -- no longer than six months -- happening after those stories conclude.

However, there are problems with a time jump so early in a book. You can do with a time jump for Jaime/Brienne but then there's the matter of the story on the Wall, in King's Landing and then in Oldtown.

  • The Jon Snow cliffhanger in and of itself needs to be addressed sooner rather than later to avoid pissing off everyone who reads Winds...but then, to make matters more delicate, the Wall is in a state of chaos. You can't time jump pass that.
  • The naval battle between the Greyjoys and the Redwynes could feasibly be put off by having the Redwynes slowed down by inclement weather and by Aurane Waters in the Stepstones. Although a time jump with Sam works in theory, it doesn't work in reality: he's in Oldtown and the Greyjoys and Redwynes will soon be coming to blows. I expect the Redwynes to lose which would leave House Hightower left alone to defend Oldtown. Help for the Hightowers is on the way but...will it get there in time? The Tyrells are overextended what with the Shields lost, the lands watered by the Mander under attack, Margaery in Queen's Landing, Loras stuck on Dragonstone and then the problem presented by JonCon and Aegon at Storm's End. Time jump? I don't know. 
  • The King's Landing story is on a strict timetable: Nymeria and Myrcella will arrive a few days after the epilogue, Cersei's trial takes places the week after the epilogue and the trials of the Tyrell girls will take place two weeks after the epilogue (who knows how long those will take?). But I think that with the Lord Regent and the Grand Maester being found murdered, things are going to shift around a lot.

I think a time jump would work better if it took place between either:

  1. the last full chapter and the epilogue in Winds
  2. or between Winds and Dream

In any case, I think it's stupid to have the Wall fall and then time skip past the fallout so as to start fresh in Dream.

Just have the Wall fall in either the epilogue or the prologue in Dream...in any case, it needs to happen around the same time Daenerys arrives in Westeros.

Don't forget Jamie. I doubt LS is just going to do nothing to him for several months/years.

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59 minutes ago, sifth said:

Don't forget Jamie. I doubt LS is just going to do nothing to him for several months/years.

I say he's a dead man walking. Given his reputation and a few more reasons, I think Lady Stoneheart will hang him if she gets her hands on him.

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13 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

I say he's a dead man walking. Given his reputation and a few more reasons, I think Lady Stoneheart will hang him if she gets her hands on him.

I don't think so.

I'll think she'll use him to orchestrate another Red Wedding. After all, isn't Daven Lannister supposed to be marrying a Frey?

And even so, aren't Edmure and Roslin on their way to Casterly Rock? If the Brotherhood fails to rescue Edmure and Roslin, they'll need a way into the Rock.

1 hour ago, sifth said:

Don't forget Jamie. I doubt LS is just going to do nothing to him for several months/years.

When I say a time skip of a few months works with the Lady Stoneheart story, I mean that Lady Stoneheart's plans for Jaime and Brienne as well as the amount of time it will take for Jaime and Brienne to get to Lady Stoneherat can be delayed. He can be in her custody or in route to her over the course of a few weeks or a month depending

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56 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

When I say a time skip of a few months works with the Lady Stoneheart story, I mean that Lady Stoneheart's plans for Jaime and Brienne as well as the amount of time it will take for Jaime and Brienne to get to Lady Stoneherat can be delayed. He can be in her custody or in route to her over the course of a few weeks or a month depending

What is interesting about this situation is that the chapters have not been written entirely evenly or in order. Jaime has actually already been off page for almost 90 days from what we last saw compared to the wall or around 60-70 days for most other character locations. Whatever LSH is doing with him has so far not been public enough to attract attention to intersect with other character arcs. My pet guess is that they are travelling to the wall.

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15 hours ago, Makk said:

What is interesting about this situation is that the chapters have not been written entirely evenly or in order. Jaime has actually already been off page for almost 90 days from what we last saw compared to the wall or around 60-70 days for most other character locations. Whatever LSH is doing with him has so far not been public enough to attract attention to intersect with other character arcs. My pet guess is that they are travelling to the wall.

Oooooh the Wall.

I like that idea.

My pet guess is that they are headed for Casterly Rock

But yeah the point that you made about the chapters not being written evenly or in order is something that I would be struggling with if I was GRRM. The timelines for all of the POVs are not lining up well at all, even in the case that many of the POVs are on different continents and different timezones. Since everyone is on different timetables, it's hard to get them all in position (both in terms of location and time) for A Dream of Spring so that they can all have reaction to news of the Wall falling.

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