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Amris

GRRRM rewriting after season 8?

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I am wondering something which I'll throw out to you guys: is one of the reasons why GRRM takes a lot longer than initially projected maybe that he has seen how badly seasons 7 and 8 misfired?

Now we all know he would have set up things much more organically and logically than D&D in any case - but still:

His planned endpoints for the story may actually have been what the screenwriters used - and GRRM - like all of us - had the opportunity to see those endpoints set into motion (but not work) on TV.

Has he gone back after season 8 and is editing and rewriting parts he had already written?

1. Minor changes: For instance: maybe he is sticking to his ending but putting in more buildup to avoid the 'forced' feel of the show?

2. Major changes: Or maybe he has gone further and has in some way now changed parts of his plan for the ending?

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Whilst it's possible he may be making some edits based on reactions (sort of a every expensive form of beta-testing a story idea), there are limits on what he can do. If he's set up storylines to unfold a certain way, he can't change course when he's 75% of the way through the story. It's like cooking spaghetti bolognese and 75% of the way through the process deciding to turn it into a beef Wellington. You can try, but your're just going to end up with an unholy mess.

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26 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Whilst it's possible he may be making some edits based on reactions (sort of a every expensive form of beta-testing a story idea), there are limits on what he can do. If he's set up storylines to unfold a certain way, he can't change course when he's 75% of the way through the story. It's like cooking spaghetti bolognese and 75% of the way through the process deciding to turn it into a beef Wellington. You can try, but your're just going to end up with an unholy mess.

But you could succeed turning beef Wellington into Spaghetti Bolognese ... :P

 

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5 hours ago, Amris said:

I am wondering something which I'll throw out to you guys: is one of the reasons why GRRM takes a lot longer than initially projected maybe that he has seen how badly seasons 7 and 8 misfired?

Now we all know he would have set up things much more organically and logically than D&D in any case - but still:

His planned endpoints for the story may actually have been what the screenwriters used - and GRRM - like all of us - had the opportunity to see those endpoints set into motion (but not work) on TV.

Has he gone back after season 8 and is editing and rewriting parts he had already written?

1. Minor changes: For instance: maybe he is sticking to his ending but putting in more buildup to avoid the 'forced' feel of the show?

2. Major changes: Or maybe he has gone further and has in some way now changed parts of his plan for the ending?

Certainly, I think Seasons 7 and 8 showed what not to do.  

But, I have no idea of the extent to which Benioff & Weiss' ending reflects George Martin's ending.  I think they came up with something that  was a good deal more cynical and nihilistic -- basically, a (very) poor man's K J Parker (cynicism and nihilism without Parker's literary merit) - than the ending that Martin is likely to give us. 

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40 minutes ago, Mithras said:

No amount of rewriting can save Dany now.

And Jon is gone, too.

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On 7/9/2020 at 2:07 AM, Amris said:

I am wondering something which I'll throw out to you guys: is one of the reasons why GRRM takes a lot longer than initially projected maybe that he has seen how badly seasons 7 and 8 misfired?

Now we all know he would have set up things much more organically and logically than D&D in any case - but still:

His planned endpoints for the story may actually have been what the screenwriters used - and GRRM - like all of us - had the opportunity to see those endpoints set into motion (but not work) on TV.

Has he gone back after season 8 and is editing and rewriting parts he had already written?

1. Minor changes: For instance: maybe he is sticking to his ending but putting in more buildup to avoid the 'forced' feel of the show?

2. Major changes: Or maybe he has gone further and has in some way now changed parts of his plan for the ending?

 

“There is a temptation to change it — ‘Oh my god, it’s screwed up, I have to come up with something different,’” he explained. "But that’s wrong. Because you’ve been planning for a certain ending and if you suddenly change direction just because somebody figured it out, or because they don’t like it, then it screws up the whole structure… I don’t read the fan sites. I want to write the book I’ve always intended to write all along. And when it comes out they can like it or they can not like it.”--GRRM

I highly doubt he's going to change the story he set out to tell. That would undo 2million+++ words and world-building of foreshadowing and character setup's.

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9 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

 

“There is a temptation to change it — ‘Oh my god, it’s screwed up, I have to come up with something different,’” he explained. "But that’s wrong. Because you’ve been planning for a certain ending and if you suddenly change direction just because somebody figured it out, or because they don’t like it, then it screws up the whole structure… I don’t read the fan sites. I want to write the book I’ve always intended to write all along. And when it comes out they can like it or they can not like it.”--GRRM

I highly doubt he's going to change the story he set out to tell. That would undo 2million+++ words and world-building of foreshadowing and character setup's.

That was before season 7 & 8 came out :)

He may claim to not read fan forums but he sure has watched the show. And couldn't miss the shortcomings of its ending.

Anyway: The GRRM quote you give is why I included option 1 in my OP: keeping the ending in place but doing minor changes due to the misfiring last 2 seasons.

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9 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

 

“There is a temptation to change it — ‘Oh my god, it’s screwed up, I have to come up with something different,’” he explained. "But that’s wrong. Because you’ve been planning for a certain ending and if you suddenly change direction just because somebody figured it out, or because they don’t like it, then it screws up the whole structure… I don’t read the fan sites. I want to write the book I’ve always intended to write all along. And when it comes out they can like it or they can not like it.”--GRRM

I highly doubt he's going to change the story he set out to tell. That would undo 2million+++ words and world-building of foreshadowing and character setup's.

George has left himself alot of wiggle room though. It is interesting to think about. That George could change some things several times without technically violating that quote. Without us knowing that he did. As long as the clues fit the answer that is published, we'd never know for sure if he changed it. George of course is the final arbiter on what the clues are. Not us.

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It is entirely possible GRRM is changing a few things based on the show. I don't personally believe that idea though. 

I find it extremely unlikely that he purposely used the show as an expensive test screening for book ideas. It just happens that he has taken so long that he now can treat it as such. If he chose to.

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Posted (edited)

The show is not the books. Plenty is things and ways of telling it, was D&D. And meant to be shocking, unexpected rather that logically constructed. But it is also GRRM style to be shocking. Ned, Robb and Cat for example. And it is not because the characters are loved, that the deaths were not gruesome. He is certainly not saving a character he intended to kill from the beginning. Because he constructed everything for it, and it's part of the main theme. As in Tuf Voyaging: "absolute power corrupts absolutely". The nuclear bomb, particularly if only one has it, is not a solution for peace. Because it doesn't entice to compromises acceptable by all parties.

The delay is because GRRM is never satisfied. Hurrying to match a deadline pushes him to write things he doesn't really like. So he rewrites. But the objectives remain the same.

Edited by BalerionTheCat

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11 hours ago, Amris said:

That was before season 7 & 8 came out :)

I say this in a friendly way... And? He has also said this after the show ended, even as recent as one of his 4-5 interviews last fall 2019 when he was in the Chicago/DC areas at talks. But that's the thing, he has been saying this at each juncture along the way, that he has no intention of changing the ending (which major plot points set up along the way) he has been working towards for ~twentywhatever years. I believe him.

11 hours ago, Amris said:

He may claim to not read fan forums but he sure has watched the show.

He has said that he used to read the forums but stopped, and later that his wife would read them but eventually she stopped. I dunno, could have been all the Daario=Everyone Faceless theories turned them off? :dunno:

Again, I believe him when he says he used to read forums, but stopped a while ago.

11 hours ago, Amris said:

And couldn't miss the shortcomings of its ending.

This is an honest question, but have you ever watched any of the other handful of GRRM stories that made it to tv/movies? ALLLLLL of them were majorly majorly changed. Sometimes he was even part of the team that made such huge changes. I think he knows the difference between books and screen and the necessary changes that come with adaptations. There are currently a few stories of his that are in current screen adaption. Fingers and toes tightly crossed they do some justice as I would like to watch a good adaption of GRRM's work at least once before I die.

Where I think the D7D show failed was they took his bulletpoint notes and decided among themselves what to disregard and what to "keep" and how the kept was going to be adapted (changed). However, both the showrunners and GRRM have been making the point that the show and books are two different stories. Even GRRM's blog post about the show end says it was "an" ending, not the ending. The show left out so dang many elements (magic, characters, locations, history, internal thoughts/character development) that it's easy to see why GRRM made this statement.

11 hours ago, Amris said:

Anyway: The GRRM quote you give is why I included option 1 in my OP: keeping the ending in place but doing minor changes due to the misfiring last 2 seasons.

The misfiring has been happening since literally the cold opening of the show. The D's twisted around the AGOT prologue for what reason? It's only that last two seasons (especially the final two episodes) that made viewers so upset because of the supposed shock of it all. That happened because Dany was NEVER adapted accurately, and the showrunners invented their own twists along the way (Arya's kill).

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11 hours ago, QhorinQuarterhand said:

George has left himself alot of wiggle room though. It is interesting to think about. That George could change some things several times without technically violating that quote. Without us knowing that he did. As long as the clues fit the answer that is published, we'd never know for sure if he changed it. George of course is the final arbiter on what the clues are. Not us.

From his own admissions, the only things that he has changed are the things that didn't fit the story trajectory the way it needed to. There was the whole Tyrion chapter he omitted and a few changes another Tyrion chapter, and changes to a Dany chapter when she has an interaction with Quaithe and who Quaithe warns her about, and then of course the slew of changes he made after the first ~150 pages and outline. He seems make more shifts rather than any real changes to the plot or characters. He can't use the show as a litmus for his book ending because that would render the 2 million+ words already written as null and void.

By the way, I love your sig line.

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2 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

From his own admissions, the only things that he has changed are the things that didn't fit the story trajectory the way it needed to. There was the whole Tyrion chapter he omitted and a few changes another Tyrion chapter, and changes to a Dany chapter when she has an interaction with Quaithe and who Quaithe warns her about, and then of course the slew of changes he made after the first ~150 pages and outline. He seems make more shifts rather than any real changes to the plot or characters. He can't use the show as a litmus for his book ending because that would render the 2 million+ words already written as null and void.

By the way, I love your sig line.

Yes, it is well known that he rewrites and scraps parts of his story as part of his writing process. He's talked about how he writes out ideas to see how they play out in chapters and then scraps it if he doesn't end up liking it. He abandoned the 5 year gap. The story has undergone many huge changes in the writing process. Most of which we will probably never get the full details about. 

Saying George changing the ending would make 2mil+ words null and void does not automatically make it true. As long as the clues still fit, nothing is made null and void. How could it be? GRRM is the final arbiter on what the clues are. Not us. Fans can gather all the "clues" for a theory they want. It doesn't mean George changed it or made anything null and void if the theory doesn't come true. 

Thank you for the compliment about my signature. Theories built on prayer and distortion of the canon text and it's context will never have as solid a foundation as theories built using the canon text in context. 

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On 7/9/2020 at 2:57 PM, Mithras said:

No amount of rewriting can save Dany now.

On 7/9/2020 at 3:38 PM, alienarea said:

And Jon is gone, too.

For the record, I never thought that the two of them would survive the series. In fact, neither one of them should to be honest.

That said, I think the show endings for Dany and Jon are very incongruent from the planned book endings for those characters. As someone mentioned above and in another thread, neither Dany nor Jon were ever properly/faithfully adapted. 

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On 7/11/2020 at 7:44 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

I say this in a friendly way... And? He has also said this after the show ended, even as recent as one of his 4-5 interviews last fall 2019 when he was in the Chicago/DC areas at talks. But that's the thing, he has been saying this at each juncture along the way, that he has no intention of changing the ending (which major plot points set up along the way) he has been working towards for ~twentywhatever years. I believe him.

He has said that he used to read the forums but stopped, and later that his wife would read them but eventually she stopped. I dunno, could have been all the Daario=Everyone Faceless theories turned them off? :dunno:

Again, I believe him when he says he used to read forums, but stopped a while ago.

This is an honest question, but have you ever watched any of the other handful of GRRM stories that made it to tv/movies? ALLLLLL of them were majorly majorly changed. Sometimes he was even part of the team that made such huge changes. I think he knows the difference between books and screen and the necessary changes that come with adaptations. There are currently a few stories of his that are in current screen adaption. Fingers and toes tightly crossed they do some justice as I would like to watch a good adaption of GRRM's work at least once before I die.

Where I think the D7D show failed was they took his bulletpoint notes and decided among themselves what to disregard and what to "keep" and how the kept was going to be adapted (changed). However, both the showrunners and GRRM have been making the point that the show and books are two different stories. Even GRRM's blog post about the show end says it was "an" ending, not the ending. The show left out so dang many elements (magic, characters, locations, history, internal thoughts/character development) that it's easy to see why GRRM made this statement.

The misfiring has been happening since literally the cold opening of the show. The D's twisted around the AGOT prologue for what reason? It's only that last two seasons (especially the final two episodes) that made viewers so upset because of the supposed shock of it all. That happened because Dany was NEVER adapted accurately, and the showrunners invented their own twists along the way (Arya's kill).

So we agree on all points. :)

 

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On 7/11/2020 at 1:06 AM, BalerionTheCat said:

The show is not the books. Plenty is things and ways of telling it, was D&D. And meant to be shocking, unexpected rather that logically constructed. But it is also GRRM style to be shocking. Ned, Robb and Cat for example. And it is not because the characters are loved, that the deaths were not gruesome. He is certainly not saving a character he intended to kill from the beginning. Because he constructed everything for it, and it's part of the main theme. As in Tuf Voyaging: "absolute power corrupts absolutely". The nuclear bomb, particularly if only one has it, is not a solution for peace. Because it doesn't entice to compromises acceptable by all parties.

The delay is because GRRM is never satisfied. Hurrying to match a deadline pushes him to write things he doesn't really like. So he rewrites. But the objectives remain the same.

It all started going downhill when George got snubbed for the Hugo for ASOS. Now when he can be bothered to sit down and write ASOIAF, he drastically overthinks everything and rips out huge chunks and rewrites and rewrites. All in a futile effort to win a Hugo. Which so far has resulted in worse books...and at least a 10 year wait for TWOW.

Unfortunately for us he now has so much money he never needs to release TWOW or ADOS. 

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@SeanF  very off topic but I saw your above post on ending technique - can you point me to some of KJ Parker's more popular nihilistic and cynical works? I have a fascination with tragic stories 

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16 minutes ago, Bobby B's Hamma said:

@SeanF  very off topic but I saw your above post on ending technique - can you point me to some of KJ Parker's more popular nihilistic and cynical works? I have a fascination with tragic stories 

I've read The Hammer, The Scavenger Trilogy, and Sixteen Ways to Defend a Walled City.  The last is probably the easiest to read.  It's full of black humour, but it doesn't leave you feeling as if you want to cut your wrists, unlike the first two.

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