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Amris

GRRRM rewriting after season 8?

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On 7/12/2020 at 7:32 AM, BlackLightning said:

For the record, I never thought that the two of them would survive the series. In fact, neither one of them should to be honest.

That said, I think the show endings for Dany and Jon are very incongruent from the planned book endings for those characters. As someone mentioned above and in another thread, neither Dany nor Jon were ever properly/faithfully adapted. 

By the end, was anybody faithfully adapted from the books?

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2 hours ago, SeanF said:

By the end, was anybody faithfully adapted from the books?

We can't say because we don't have those books by the end.

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We saw by season 5 how dramatically different the show became. It was a different story with a few of the same events happening. There were plenty of book events and characters that never occurred or existed and plenty of fabricated show events that never occur in the books. Even before season 5 there were significant differences, for example I hated how Jaime arrived back at kings landing before Sansa disappeared. He had made up his mind to make sure Sansa (and Arya) were set free but in the books we will never know just how much he was prepared to fight his father for that. In the show he doesn't care at all. It's annoying because I think the actor nailed the parts where show Jaime was the same as book Jaime and then served up a bs story line where his character was continuously acting in a contrary manner. In the later seasons it was just a complete mess.

I highly doubt he will change anything at all because of the show. Even if the same event happens it will likely happen in a completely different way.

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1 hour ago, Mithras said:

We can't say because we don't have those books by the end.

Obviously. Except for those who died early. Like Ned or Joffrey.

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3 hours ago, QhorinQuarterhand said:

Not by the end. D&D purposely tanked the show. People who think they spoiled anything from the books haven't been paying attention.

At the very least, HBO had to consolidate some storylines, because either they killed off too many characters or failed to introduce certain characters that seem vital to the Book plots.

Not introducing Young Griff and Val seem like two pretty big omissions to me.  Val since she seems pretty integral to Jon's storyline, and Young Griff since it seems pretty apparent that he is heading on a collision course with Dany's storyline.

(The failure to introduce Lady Stoneheart is the one that GRRM has publicly groused about the most though.)

The theory that seems to make the most sense is that the show runners just had Kit and Emilia play double duty as Jon/Young "Aegon" Griff and Dany/Val, which also conviently brings them together as love interests even if the books fail to do the same.  This would also explain why it seems they kept teleporting back and forth from the North to the South.

Edited by Frey family reunion

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I believe this thread should be in the show forum. But as the title is "GRRRM rewriting after season 8?", I suppose everyone understand this thread is full of show spoilers. At least those who believe the show had spoiled the books.

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1 hour ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I believe this thread should be in the show forum. But as the title is "GRRRM rewriting after season 8?", I suppose everyone understand this thread is full of show spoilers. At least those who believe the show had spoiled the books.

Here let me spoil the last couple of seasons for those that haven’t watched them yet:

Spoiler

They sucked.  Don’t watch them.

 

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10 hours ago, SeanF said:

By the end, was anybody faithfully adapted from the books?

Oh absolutely not. That's why you can't say the show ending is the book ending without all the extra stuff. And anyone who says that is an idiot.

I said what I said. Anyone who still says that the show ending are bulletpoints from the book ending are idiots.

I'll give it 10% accuracy but that's it.

---

But my earlier point was that neither Dany nor Jon were ever properly adapted.

In the books, Dany is very athletic, very physical and will likely become a warrior-queen who leads from the frontlines by the end of The Winds of Winter. Dany is also very emotional and very sentimental with a very understated intelligence. They somehow gave her the superpower of being invulnerable to fire (I didn't mind that too much) but they completely ignored her actual by-the-book superpower of dragon dreams.

In the books, Jon's attitude and disposition is completely different. He isn't a dour, somewhat low IQ sourpuss; he is very clever and very ambitious. He is a lot more outspoken and assertive with a pretty bad temper; Jon is also a very good politician and, although he is not a bad fighter, that's not where his strength lies. He is also a known skinchanger.

None of that was in the show but should've been.

As a matter of fact, now that I think about it, it's as if GRRM gave Dany the role normally ascribed to a male and Jon the role normally ascribed to a female.

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8 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Here let me spoil the last couple of seasons for those that haven’t watched them yet:

  Reveal hidden contents

They sucked.  Don’t watch them.

 

They are 2 different things. Especially since season 4 and the NK. They also dropped most most of what is magical, except the flamethrowers. It is a long time, I don't see the show as an adaptation of ASoIaF (the title was wrong from the beginning). The show is not worth watching 95% of the time (except for the image quality which is stunning). GRRM has nothing to rewrite. Either it's not his story anyway. Or it will be, but D&D forgot to add the evidences , the building of characters (they liked their battles too much), so to increase the final WTF effect.

Edited by BalerionTheCat

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On 7/14/2020 at 10:18 AM, BalerionTheCat said:

[snip] I don't see the show as an adaptation of ASoIaF (the title was wrong from the beginning). The show is not worth watching 95% of the time (except for the image quality which is stunning). GRRM has nothing to rewrite. Either it's not his story anyway. Or it will be, but D&D forgot to add the evidences , the building of characters (they liked their battles too much), so to increase the final WTF effect.

Yes, yes. But whether you personally see the show as an adaptation of the books does not matter. The fact is: it IS an adaptation of the books. Admittedly a very bad one where the last seasons are concerned. But still. The end will be the same. And it didn't work. So my thinking is GRRM may now be more sensitized to the problems (than he would have been without the show) and take more care with the buildup than he had originally planned or maybe even change a thing here and there.

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On 9/9/2020 at 2:06 AM, Amris said:

Yes, yes. But whether you personally see the show as an adaptation of the books does not matter. The fact is: it IS an adaptation of the books. Admittedly a very bad one where the last seasons are concerned. But still. The end will be the same. And it didn't work. So my thinking is GRRM may now be more sensitized to the problems (than he would have been without the show) and take more care with the buildup than he had originally planned or maybe even change a thing here and there.

What does "the end will be the same" really mean? A lot of things that happen in Season 8 simply can't happen in the books due to differences in the story, and most, if not everything, else must occur in drastically different circumstances and context. Even if you we limit it to just assuming that the bullet point descriptions of main character endings will be similar, that's not all that meaningful. A story is about a lot more than just brief descriptions of character endings. If that was all that mattered, it wouldn't be very difficult to write a good ending or a good story, and the series would have been done years ago. How an ending is reached matters more than the broad parameters of the ending IMO.

And even then, let's keep in mind that unless I'm forgetting something only one thing in S8 is actually confirmed to be from the books. I'm not saying that I think that was the only thing in S8 taken from George's ending in some form, but I do think it's premature to make broad assumptions about what is also going to be in the books and how similar they will be. 

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On 9/9/2020 at 11:06 AM, Amris said:

The fact is: it IS an adaptation of the books

The names of people and places are the same. So yes, it's an adaptation. But not much more. Not enough for me to see the show and think "spoiler". Even if a few things were matching my understanding of the books.

On 9/11/2020 at 1:05 AM, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

A story is about a lot more than just brief descriptions of character endings

Exactly.

On 9/11/2020 at 1:05 AM, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

only one thing in S8 is actually confirmed to be from the books

By who? I don't think GRRM confirmed it. Anyway D&D kept so little of magic and Old Gods, and Bran is so much of that, that this part, as many believe, make no sense. The state of Westeros at the end of the show, the kingdom itself, make no sense.

Edited by BalerionTheCat

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On 9/9/2020 at 5:06 AM, Amris said:

The fact is: it IS an adaptation of the books. Admittedly a very bad one where the last seasons are concerned. But still. The end will be the same.

I have a hard time seeing that, especially how the show handled all of the stories from AFFC and ADWD, most of them they rushed through, rewrote or just ignored. Heck so many characters on the show seem like different people in the books and many more character in the books don't even exist in the show. I have no idea how A Dream of Spring is going to end, but the show made so many daft changes that I don't see how 90% of the story can even line up with the books.

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10 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

By who? I don't think GRRM confirmed it. Anyway D&D kept so little of magic and Old Gods, and Bran is so much of that, that this part, as many believe, make no sense. The state of Westeros at the end of the show, the kingdom itself, make no sense.

GRRM isn’t going to directly confirm anything, but D&D have explicitly stated that King Bran came from him. I suppose you can believe that they’re lying about it, but that doesn’t seem very likely to me.

Your point about D&D cutting that stuff is actually exactly why I thought it was from the books even before the confirmation. There’s no way they would choose bran as the final king if it was just something they were coming up with. It only makes sense as them tacking on a plot point from GRRM that they didn’t bother to properly set up.

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47 minutes ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

It only makes sense as them tacking on a plot point from GRRM that they didn’t bother to properly set up.

Yeah. I'm sure GRRM told them something. But it was like explaining nuclear physics to a chicken. The result is not what you expected. The Children had greenseers, not kings.

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4 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

GRRM isn’t going to directly confirm anything, but D&D have explicitly stated that King ******** came from him. I suppose you can believe that they’re lying about it, but that doesn’t seem very likely to me.

Your point about D&D cutting that stuff is actually exactly why I thought it was from the books even before the confirmation. There’s no way they would choose bran as the final king if it was just something they were coming up with. It only makes sense as them tacking on a plot point from GRRM that they didn’t bother to properly set up.

Quote edited for spoilers.

To me, whoever winds up as king or queen in the end (if anyone does) is not that important. Granted it will wrap up a single characters story line, but how it arrives is also very important for that story line, and I don't think we got that in the show at all. I felt that the way it happened was completely unrelated from the rest of the story. It just felt like a jarring afterthought, hey guys, this happens. And for all the other storylines it is not really important at all.

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From Not a Blog, when writing about " I, CLAUDIUS"

Quote

And you know what?  IT DOES NOT MATTER.   If you have great writing and great acting, that is really all you need.   And I, CLAUDIUS had that in spades.  A single writer, Jack Pulman, scripted all thirteen episodes.   Pulman is long deceased, I fear, which I regret.  I would have considered it an honor to meet him and shake his hand.   His dialogue sparkles from beginning to end, with so many unforgettable lines… and throughout he remains true to the genius of Robert Graves and his great novels.

https://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2020/09/10/c-c-claudius-aka-i-clavdivs/

 

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George said something about considering taking a character in another direction after season 5, which was where HBO killed Stannis.  That was hard to watch.  Not to defend the show or any auxiliary telling of ASOIAF.   It's a big story.  After much thought and over reacting and stuff, I can see now where some of the things that happened in 7 & 8 could happen.  These are some hard things to swallow, but not all of it.  I think the show ending for Dany could have been done a lot better and actually have been enjoyable.   It's a great twist.  GRRM has been telling us all along, the chance of mental illness in a Targaryen is prominent.   I didn't like the way it was told, but I liked the twist.   I would love to read GRRM writing this because I would understand better and it would be Dany, not a telling of Dany.   Martin has made remarks about progress and struggles.   He looks to be making great progress now.  It wasn't that long ago he was talking about how hard it is to write Tyrion in a very dark place and Bran without giving up the game.   I don't think Martin is changing anything other than organic changes natural to the creative process.  He tried to explain the story to come that was badly told by television, again, without giving up the game.  I don't think he's rewriting anything and we will read words he always meant for our eyes, not some Hail Mary pass at scrambling for a readership that left him because of other people's mistakes.   He gives us credit, we need to give him more.  

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On 7/9/2020 at 1:07 AM, Amris said:

I am wondering something which I'll throw out to you guys: is one of the reasons why GRRM takes a lot longer than initially projected maybe that he has seen how badly seasons 7 and 8 misfired?

IMO, no. The show is a different beast than the books. Story lines were condensed, combined, omitted and fabricated. Providing an outline or general path for each character left the show with a lot of room to write their own story. It was basically fan-fiction. GRRM has repeatedly said he's writing his own story and warned about the "butterfly affect" with regards to choices the show made. GRRM has also stated he is a slow writer and calls himself a gardener which implies that while he cares and tends for his "seeds" he cannot guarantee how the plant will grow.

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