Did Jaime have to kill the Mad King

[Tikhunt]

8 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Ah thank you for breaking the scenario down.  Do you need to pull the trigger?  I don't know, what does history say?  Should I have pulled the trigger?  I can see where you are able to discern possibilities I may have some tunnel vision with.  I am trying to apply this scenario to Jamie and Aerys.  Abandoning or incapacitating Aerys?  I wonder if either occurred to Jamie.  When Jamie tells his shame to Brienne he doesn't appear to have thought of any other options.   I think that's where maybe we are not coming together.  It was a rash, probably impulsive act.  I don't recall any present thinking so much as reaction.   Jamie doesn't go super deep emotionally, but believes that Brienne will understand the honor of a knight turned Kinglsayer.     Maybe he is looking for some understanding and maybe even a pass from a true knight.   That does seem to matter to him and her reaction is immediate.  I believe she calls for help and corrects their calling him Kingslayer, "his name is Jamie!"

Jamie never did anything to curtail the gossip over his actions.  He allowed people who were not there and may be alive to this day due to his unthinkable action to snicker and curse.  It's possible he saw alternatives as he gained experience.  I cannot undervalue his age at the time of the crime.   He still does nothing to prevent tongues from wagging, but he wants to do better in his head.  Perhaps his more recent oaths are permitted more thought.  I mean, I thought he let himself off the hook in outfitting Brienne to keep his bargain with Lady Stark.  But I was wrong.  

It's part of the appeal of his arc I think, he made the poor choice thinking it was the only one and bears a grudge against everyone else for not seeing it like that. I know many people, myself included, who would probably make the same choice. 

[zandru]

Some have noted that it was just King Aerys II and Jaime in the throne room, so Jaime actually had lots of options. But remember, Aerys was shouting orders. He's calling for help. He was the King. Who knows who might have rushed in at any moment, to carry out the legitimate order to immolate King's Landing? That had to be on Ser Jaime's mind.

Also, "take Aerys prisoner"? "Incapacitate" him? I don't think knights are even trained in these practices. Sounds like what police used to be trained in, here in the 20th century (but, sadly, don't seem to use much anymore), not something a Kingsguard would know. And once again, suppose some faithful lackey or group of lackeys ran into the throne room to help? Who would they support, the rightful (although allegedly "mad" and definitely cruel) King, or some Lannister kid, whose rebellious father's troops were sacking the city? Ser Jaime must be part of the treasonous rebellion, right?

Killing Aerys then and there was actually the most viable option. But not explaining why, ever, and not alerting the new Powers That Be to the hidden wildfire threat, ever, was dumb, petulant, and near criminal. "Chekhov's wildfire" may very well come up again in the story, assuming Tyrion didn't use it all in the Battle on the Blackwater.

[frenin]

19 minutes ago, zandru said:

Some have noted that it was just King Aerys II and Jaime in the throne room, so Jaime actually had lots of options. But remember, Aerys was shouting orders. He's calling for help. He was the King. Who knows who might have rushed in at any moment, to carry out the legitimate order to immolate King's Landing? That had to be on Ser Jaime's mind.

Shouting orders to whom?? The throne room was completely empty and it's a big enough room that both Tywin's and Ned's vans can be in the room,  Aerys could be shouting orders but if there was no oneto hear them, what was the problem??

 

 

21 minutes ago, zandru said:

Also, "take Aerys prisoner"? "Incapacitate" him? I don't think knights are even trained in these practices. Sounds like what police used to be trained in, here in the 20th century (but, sadly, don't seem to use much anymore), not something a Kingsguard would know. And once again, suppose some faithful lackey or group of lackeys ran into the throne room to help? Who would they support, the rightful (although allegedly "mad" and definitely cruel) King, or some Lannister kid, whose rebellious father's troops were sacking the city? Ser Jaime must be part of the treasonous rebellion, right?

I do think that knights are trained for that, because even in the middle ages there are situations far more complex that just killing, hitting Aerys with the back of the sword was a perfectly viable option, one that for A or B, didn't cross to Jaime's mind.

But what lackey?? Why would they randomly go to help?? Jaime is the Kingsguard and he can perfectly say that the king fell due the emotions, as long as Jaime doesn't outright  kill him, he can get away with murder until Tywin completely takes the castle and Jaime was after Aerys the 2nd in command, with Aerys knocked out he is the one giving the orders. Jaime had again plenty of options.

 

 

[zandru]

13 minutes ago, frenin said:

Shouting orders to whom?? The throne room was completely empty

To anyone who might hear. Sound can travel through open doors, down corridors. Jaime would have heard the King yelling and quite reaasonably assumed that somebody might hear. And when is a palace ever completely empty?

15 minutes ago, frenin said:

I do think that knights are trained for that,

Well, that's your assumption. Maybe it's right, maybe it's not.

[frenin]

9 minutes ago, zandru said:

To anyone who might hear. Sound can travel through open doors, down corridors. Jaime would have heard the King yelling and quite reaasonably assumed that somebody might hear. And when is a palace ever completely empty?

Sound can travel, fast actions cannot and there were a lot of sounds during that time since the castle,  thr palace wasn't empty, the throne room was, the palace was being stormed, so no, Jaime didn't really have to worry about it ad was Aerys was knocked out, Jaime was the senior in command.

 

33 minutes ago, zandru said:

Well, that's your assumption. Maybe it's right, maybe it's not.

I can really tell in Westeros but medieval knihgts were trained to about how to restrain and knocking someone out was not invented in the 20th century.

[zandru]

6 minutes ago, frenin said:

 ... no, Jaime didn't really have to worry about it and with Aerys knocked out...

Maybe so, maybe no. The Hollywood cliche about "knocking out" somebody and reliably putting into an unconscious state, from which they shortly (depending on what the script requires) awake with no repercussions - or concussions - that's just nonsense.

Plus, you're insisting that Ser Jaime had nothing to worry about. I maintain that he clearly thought he did, and he knew more about the palace, its occupancy level, and its acoustical properties than we do. And he further believed that time was of the essence.

He did the right thing. Probably not the optimal thing, but it's done.

 

[frenin]

46 minutes ago, zandru said:

Maybe so, maybe no. The Hollywood cliche about "knocking out" somebody and reliably putting into an unconscious state, from which they shortly (depending on what the script requires) awake with no repercussions - or concussions - that's just nonsense.

I didn't say that, he would give a good hit, Aerys would awake later, but by the time he does, he is dead meat regardless.

 

52 minutes ago, zandru said:

Plus, you're insisting that Ser Jaime had nothing to worry about. I maintain that he clearly thought he did, and he knew more about the palace, its occupancy level, and its acoustical properties than we do. And he further believed that time was of the essence.

Or that he convinced himself he did, that was the best way to kill Aerys with a clean conscience. You're the one thinking that Jaime thought about all those possibilities, nothing we know about Jaime backs that, he is rash, he would've thought that Aerys needed to go and he wouldn't have stopped to ponder other options.

[zandru]

52 minutes ago, frenin said:

You're the one thinking that Jaime thought about all those possibilities, nothing we know about Jaime backs that, he is rash, he would've thought that Aerys needed to go and he wouldn't have stopped to ponder other options.

Well, sure. But there was more going through his mind than just a brainstem reaction, and this analysis might have factored in. After the fact, we can see how he might have thought about it - if indeed Jaime Lannister was capable of thought. And, had this thought trained passed through his gray matter, there was good logic to it.

54 minutes ago, frenin said:

I didn't say that, he would give a good hit, Aerys would awake later, but by the time he does, he is dead meat regardless.

So fine, Ser Jaime gives Aerys "a good hit", say with his sword butt, and Aerys, being elderly and in poor condition, actually dies. Or goes into a coma and later dies. Jaime is still a Kingslayer. Like I said, these things aren't as easy as Hollywood would have us believe.

Moreover, if Aerys were alive, Robert's takeover would not have been nearly as clean and easy as it turned out to be.

[Bowen Marsh]

Did Jaime have to kill King Aerys II?  No

He did it because he was bitter towards his king.  He could have done as he was told.  Which is go to Tywin and assassinate him.  Anyway, so what he should have done was get his king to safety. 

[zandru]

8 minutes ago, Bowen Marsh said:

[Jaime] did it because he was bitter towards his king.  He could have done as he was told.  Which is go to Tywin and assassinate him.  Anyway, so what he should have done was get his king to safety. 

Well that's what Barristan Selmy would have done. And Selmy would have lit the wildfire himself, if told to, and stood there amid the green flames and shrieking people, telling himself "This is fine."

I return to Jaime's lament about all the many and contradictory oaths he'd had to swear to. Which one(s) should apply in any particular situation? What to do, what to do??

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, zandru said:

Maybe so, maybe no. The Hollywood cliche about "knocking out" somebody and reliably putting into an unconscious state, from which they shortly (depending on what the script requires) awake with no repercussions - or concussions - that's just nonsense.

Plus, you're insisting that Ser Jaime had nothing to worry about. I maintain that he clearly thought he did, and he knew more about the palace, its occupancy level, and its acoustical properties than we do. And he further believed that time was of the essence.

He did the right thing. Probably not the optimal thing, but it's done.

He could just as well have overpowered him or arrested him or distracted him until his dad's men were there. Jaime is alone with the Mad King when he kills him, he doesn't have to overpower/kill other guards.

3 minutes ago, zandru said:

Well that's what Barristan Selmy would have done. And Selmy would have lit the wildfire himself, if told to, and stood there amid the green flames and shrieking people, telling himself "This is fine."

This is not what Barristan would have done as you would know if you had read his own chapters. He may not have killed his king, but he wouldn't have stood there and watched him burning down the city nor would have partaken in the implementation of the plan.

3 minutes ago, zandru said:

I return to Jaime's lament about all the many and contradictory oaths he'd had to swear to. Which one(s) should apply in any particular situation? What to do, what to do??

This is, overall, just a narcissistic excuse. Nobody in the books complains, for instance, that he had to swear too many vows and no longer knew what he should do. This is the kind of excuse people give when they cannot take responsibility for their own actions.

If this were a valid excuse then why don't the black brothers cite their vows of fealty as an excuse to leave the Watch behind? Or their vows as knights?

There is a hierarchy there - Jaime is a son and a knight and a Kingsguard, but the most important duty - a duty he deliberately chose when the king he wanted to serve was a raving lunatic for at least four years - is his duty as a Kingsguard. Every KG knows that if his father becomes a rebel his first duty is to protect the king from said father even if that means to kill him - Jaime even has the hypocrisy to demand that Balon Swann kill his brother if he were to turn against Tommen while for himself different standards apply. And of course the vows of standard knighthood only apply to a KG insofar as they don't clash with the duty of the KG and the orders your king gives to you. In fact, the latter would be true for any sworn sword or household knight in service to the king. If the king commands you to butcher innocents you do that, because the king is the king and the guy who feeds and clothes and pays you.

[frenin]

1 hour ago, zandru said:

Well, sure. But there was more going through his mind than just a brainstem reaction, and this analysis might have factored in. After the fact, we can see how he might have thought about it - if indeed Jaime Lannister was capable of thought. And, had this thought trained passed through his gray matter, there was good logic to it.

Nothing we know about Jaime or the situation he was mean hint that he factored any other thing that Aerys had to go.

And i don't really see how he might have thought that given that he had other clear options.

 

 

1 hour ago, zandru said:

So fine, Ser Jaime gives Aerys "a good hit", say with his sword butt, and Aerys, being elderly and in poor condition, actually dies. Or goes into a coma and later dies. Jaime is still a Kingslayer. Like I said, these things aren't as easy as Hollywood would have us believe.

Moreover, if Aerys were alive, Robert's takeover would not have been nearly as clean and easy as it turned out to be.

Aerys wasn't elderly he was less than 40,  without Jaime cutting his throat open, he can give a lot of plausible explanations, but people saw him cutting Aerys throat.

If Aerys were alive, the rebels would've killed him anyway, his days were numbered once he opened his doors to Tywin.

[frenin]

12 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

This is not what Barristan would have done as you would know if you had read his own chapters. He may not have killed his king, but he wouldn't have stood there and watched him burning down the city nor would have partaken in the implementation of the plan.

Ofc he would, his chapters are clear on that. Barristan let Aerys do every kind of shit. He would've stood aside and he would've obeyed his King, whatever was the task.

[zandru]

Okay, frenin. You've got your interpretations, convictions, and theories and I've got mine. Neither one of us will ever budge the other.

[BlackLightning]

The answer is no.

A hard no at that.

And as @Lord Varys so duly reminds us, Jaime did not in fact save the city; he has not only postponed its destruction. In fact, since it is very dangerous to move the wildfire at this point and the danger only exponentially increases as more time passes, Jaime has now doomed the city. And he doesn't even know it because HE NEVER CHECKED.

Jaime Lannister is an idiot. I don't know who the dumbest Lannister is and I'm sure we'll get an answer from GRRM himself by the end of the series...so for right now, it's a something of a toss-up between the Wonder Twins. The fact that he was found to be sitting on the Iron Throne with Aerys's corpse at the base of it highlights that. Of course, Ned Stark and two-thirds of the entire realm would hate him. The visual alone is deeply problematic.

I also find it very weird and very incriminating that Jaime never thought (or never acted on his thoughts) to check up on Rhaegar's family. Jaime thinks about how much he respected and admired Rhaegar but yet he never lifts a finger for his wife and children.

He is an idiot.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

The answer is no.

A hard no at that.

And as @Lord Varys so duly reminds us, Jaime did not in fact save the city; he has not only postponed its destruction. In fact, since it is very dangerous to move the wildfire at this point and the danger only exponentially increases as more time passes, Jaime has now doomed the city. And he doesn't even know it because HE NEVER CHECKED.

Well, to be sure, the fruits of Mad Aerys are occasionally found by accident, and we have reason to believe that the wildfire stored beneath the Great Sept and the Dragonpit was found and removed and burned on the Blackwater along with other old stashes. Tyrion has all the recovered 'fruits' moved to the ships they burned on the river. That wildfire was so dangerous already that they could not risk using it any other way. We can also be pretty sure Varys pointed out where the Mad King had hidden wildfire beneath the Red Keep unless he wants to risk to wake up one day engulfed in green flame. Thus we can be reasonably sure the Red Keep is pretty safe, too. Aerys II wouldn't have access to secret places beneath the Red Keep Varys didn't know about, nor would he have been able to have the pyromancers move wildfire to such places without Varys learning that this happened even if such places existed.

We don't know how much has been found over the years, but we can assume not everything. Whether that's enough to cause a fire big enough to burn down the entire city is difficult to say. It would depend on the question whether snow and ice have the city in their grip when a stash ignites. The wildfire itself will burn itself out, no matter the weather conditions, but unless a lot of buildings can catch fire and in turn ignite others a single explosion of a hidden stash in winter shouldn't destroy the entire city.

We have to assume that this wildfire is hidden deep underground in hidden tunnels and cellars, not on the ground level or the upper level of any buildings (else people would have found it by now when they tidied up their houses, etc.).

But Jaime himself didn't contribute anything to finding the wildfire that was found, nor is the coming winter his accomplishment. And if the city gets through winter without an accident then a single explosion at a dry spring or summer day certainly could start a fire that's going to engulf the entire city. Fires were notorious in medieval cities, they started quickly and were pretty much impossible to put out - even if they didn't involve accelerants like wildfire.

In fact, it is one of the more ludicrous ideas of George's that a city like KL didn't burn down in part or completely once or twice each century or so. Especially while the dragons lived there it is ludicrous to assume there weren't serious fires on a regular basis.

[BlackLightning]

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, to be sure, the fruits of Mad Aerys are occasionally found by accident, and we have reason to believe that the wildfire stored beneath the Great Sept and the Dragonpit was found and removed and burned on the Blackwater along with other old stashes. Tyrion has all the recovered 'fruits' moved to the ships they burned on the river. That wildfire was so dangerous already that they could not risk using it any other way. We can also be pretty sure Varys pointed out where the Mad King had hidden wildfire beneath the Red Keep unless he wants to risk to wake up one day engulfed in green flame. Thus we can be reasonably sure the Red Keep is pretty safe, too. Aerys II wouldn't have access to secret places beneath the Red Keep Varys didn't know about, nor would he have been able to have the pyromancers move wildfire to such places without Varys learning that this happened even if such places existed.

We don't know how much has been found over the years, but we can assume not everything. Whether that's enough to cause a fire big enough to burn down the entire city is difficult to say. It would depend on the question whether snow and ice have the city in their grip when a stash ignites. The wildfire itself will burn itself out, no matter the weather conditions, but unless a lot of buildings can catch fire and in turn ignite others a single explosion of a hidden stash in winter shouldn't destroy the entire city.

We have to assume that this wildfire is hidden deep underground in hidden tunnels and cellars, not on the ground level or the upper level of any buildings (else people would have found it by now when they tidied up their houses, etc.).

But Jaime himself didn't contribute anything to finding the wildfire that was found, nor is the coming winter his accomplishment. And if the city gets through winter without an accident then a single explosion at a dry spring or summer day certainly could start a fire that's going to engulf the entire city. Fires were notorious in medieval cities, they started quickly and were pretty much impossible to put out - even if they didn't involve accelerants like wildfire.

The point I had in bringing up the winter weather is that we don't know how wildfire will react in temperatures well below freezing. I realize that any remaining stores of wildfire would be well-hidden subterraneanously but should some kind of ruckus (such as a battle) disturb them.

And that's not even taking into account what Cersei, Euron and Aegon would do with them once they are found. We all know that Cersei isn't particularly bright and I have a feeling Aegon would become a loose cannon before the end of it so who knows what they would do. They might make some kind of fatal error trying to utilize those hidden wildfire caches.

As for Euron? Well, he's a wicked mother---- with quite the imagination so that goes without saying.

In fact, it is one of the more ludicrous ideas of George's that a city like KL didn't burn down in part or completely once or twice each century or so. Especially while the dragons lived there it is ludicrous to assume there weren't serious fires on a regular basis.

Well, he hasn't finished writing Fire and Blood yet and there are still two more parts to come. As for the dragons living in King's Landing and no serious fires? Well, Aegon, Maegor, Visenya, Rhaenys (the second one) and Jaehaerys all were very meticulous people and their dragons (especially Balerion) seem to have been very well-trained and closely monitored. And if not well-trained, then too old to be recklessly starting fires. Ever notice how the wilder, more difficult dragons were kept on Dragonstone and in the more rural areas near the Dragonmount at that?

Pardon my bad memory but I though that the city DID catch fire during/after the Storming of the Dragonpit during the Dance.

[Miss_Saffron]

On 7/11/2020 at 7:04 AM, Tikhunt said:

The necessity of killing the Mad King interests me because a lot of Jaimes dislike for characters like Ned come from believing he did the only thing he could to save innocents and getting wrongfully judged for it. The thing is Jaime didn't need to carry out that act in my opinion, but obviously Jaime wouldn't see that because he can't seem to fathom that he could make poor choices while achieving a good outcome. 

I second all of that. Jaime obviously clings to the idea that his act was necessary because in the end that's the only justification strong enough to free himself from dishonor in his own mind. Despite all his (rightful) moral outrage about all of Aerys's atrocities Jaime witnessed, he is the product of the society he lives in and he doesn't really feel entitled to morally judge his king. Also, if it wasn't necessary, then he tarnished his honor for nothing and that's something his sense of pride won't allow him to even consider.

18 hours ago, frenin said:

19 hours ago, zandru said:

I maintain that he clearly thought he did, and he knew more about the palace, its occupancy level, and its acoustical properties than we do. And he further believed that time was of the essence.

Or that he convinced himself he did, that was the best way to kill Aerys with a clean conscience. You're the one thinking that Jaime thought about all those possibilities, nothing we know about Jaime backs that, he is rash, he would've thought that Aerys needed to go and he wouldn't have stopped to ponder other options.

I don't think that at the moment of killing Aery's Jaime had thought about anything else than "enough of that already". I'm of the strong opinion, that the wildfire plot/order to kill Tywin were just the last shove that pushed Jaime into action, but things like treatment of Rhaella and excessively cruel punishment of Rickard and Brandon also played a part here. Not that he consciously considered all of that and made a well-thought out decision, but he clearly was growing disgusted by the inaction of people surrounding the king, of the fact that nobody was willing so much as speak against his actions much less stop them and he just finally snapped. 

16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

16 hours ago, zandru said:

Well that's what Barristan Selmy would have done. And Selmy would have lit the wildfire himself, if told to, and stood there amid the green flames and shrieking people, telling himself "This is fine."

This is not what Barristan would have done as you would know if you had read his own chapters. He may not have killed his king, but he wouldn't have stood there and watched him burning down the city nor would have partaken in the implementation of the plan.

I agree here. Barristan would refuse and, if necessary, try to apprehend anybody willing to carry out that order. His open justification would've been that his first and foremost duty is protecting the king's life and participating in the wildfire plot would violate his oath in that way. Internally, he would've had a sense that the order is morally wrong, but that in itself would've gotten him only to step aside. To act against his king's will, he'd have needed to find a justification for it in his oath.

16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Quote

I return to Jaime's lament about all the many and contradictory oaths he'd had to swear to. Which one(s) should apply in any particular situation? What to do, what to do??

This is, overall, just a narcissistic excuse. Nobody in the books complains, for instance, that he had to swear too many vows and no longer knew what he should do. This is the kind of excuse people give when they cannot take responsibility for their own actions.

If this were a valid excuse then why don't the black brothers cite their vows of fealty as an excuse to leave the Watch behind? Or their vows as knights?

And here I respectfully disagree, thrice so.

1. When Jaime brings up the contradicting oaths, it's not to make a point that he was confused about what he should've done. It's to make a point that in this circumstance he was bound to break some vow, so how should he judge, which one he was to keep and which one to disregard. Does the only thing that matters is the fact that the order comes from the king or does the substance of said order matter? In essence, it's the ASOIAF way of asking whether 'my leader, right or wrong'/'I was just following orders' holds up to scrutiny or not. And the fact that in hindsight he's probably could've and should've taken a third option doesn't make this dilemma invalid or dishonest from Jaime's POV at the moment he's bringing it up.

2. Jon repeatedly butts his head against the NW oath and his entire arc is one big thesis on the spirit of the law vs. the letter of the law dilemma, so it's not 'nobody'. And I would argue that if the echo of a similar issue is a driving force behind the arcs of two prominent characters, it was put there to give the readers some food for thought.

3. When judging actions of fictional characters, readers are under no obligation to do that by the sets of values embraced in-universe. The issue of Jaime breaking his vow/forgoing the duty of Kingsguard as per the rules set in-universe and the question of readers' judgement of his actions are two separate things. The idea that one has to align with another is a logical fallacy. Once again, I'd say that the use of unreliable narrators often presenting contradictory moral judgements and the heavy use of deliberate values dissonance pretty much begs the reader to step outside of the paradigms presented by the narrative and characters and use their own measuring stick. 

[SeanF]

I think Jaime did the right thing by killing him.  Aerys had simply crossed too many lines.  The sad thing is that Aerys should have been killed/imprisoned years previously.  At this stage, Jaime's father was, in his own way, as bad as Aerys.  Whatever course of action Jaime took, innocents were going to be butchered.

 

[R2D]

On 7/10/2020 at 9:27 AM, The Map Guy said:

Aerys was going to die anyways, either killed in action or by trial.

If Jaime killed Aerys himself, he at least proves to Ned and Robert that he was on their side ... allowing Jaime to live.

If Jaime just "arrests" Aerys ... people may label him a coward ... well more of a coward.

 

And it would be a better story, since Jaime is Aerys' son via the A+J=J&C theory.
Aerys: Bring me your father's head!
Jaime: Bigggg mistake!

Yes Jaime trying Aerys up is just boring and has no drama.