“H+L=J” v?.0

[TheLastWolf]

I don’t know if this has been asked before, but could it be true?

Lyanna Stark saves Howland Reed from his bullies at the beginning of the Harrenhal tourney, saying that he is her father’s banner man. Then she introduces him to the other wolf cubs (or is it pups?). Then we see the mysterious Knight of the Laughing tree (which could’ve been either Lyanna or Howland only, makes no matter anyway, unless it is someone else, which is impossible) humbling the bullies in jousts and by asking the knights (for whom the bullies squired for) to teach them humility and chivalry. Howland then visits the Isle of Faces in the God’s eye. What happened there is another thread (most probably Greenseering 101).

Then let us fast forward to Reed coming to the Tower of Joy with Ned Stark and his band of 6 (incl. ‘em). The White Bull, Whent and the Sword of the Morning (the 3 Kingsguard) are slain along with 4 of Ned’s 6. Ned would have died if not for Howland. Their survival (there) itself speaks volumes of their swordsmanship, considering who they were up against. Then Lyanna dies peacefully after extracting a promise from her beloved brother.

What if Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna (to bring forth the third head of the dragon) and learnt to his shock (and hers too probably) that she was already pregnant? Then one of two things might’ve happened. She could have been raped half a hundred times by him in his wroth (as Robert liked to say/believe)…or what I prefer, Rhaegar could’ve loved her still and kept her with him (as Barristan thought, only the loving part, I mean). What other reason could be there, provided that I’m right?

Let us again go back to Harrenhal where Robert Baratheon and Richard Lonmouth, (Rhaegar’s former squire and probably one of his 6/7 best mates who rode with him when they took Lyanna) vowed to unmask the Mystery Knight. I think that Lonmouth found that the mystery knight was Lyanna/Howland and that they were in a relationship. Good think that Lonmouth succeeded where Robert failed (Robert had no cause to hate Reed like he did Rhaegar, but he was Robert after all and we do not know what he’d have done if he learnt about his betrothed being with another man). I also think that Lonmouth is now…Lem Lemoncloak of the BwB  ( see ladygwynhyfvar’s article about it).

https://ladygwynhyfvar.com/2014/02/03/lemuncloaked-the-true-identity-of-lem-lemoncloak/

Ned’s promise to Lyanna could’ve been to protect Jon’s identity and to save him from Robert’s wrath as Howland Reed was still alive while Rhaegar was dead.

Jon’s warging/skinchanging abilities is remarked by many (incl. Varamyr Sixskins) to be the most powerful they’d ever encountered. It could be due to the fact that both the blood of the First Men (Stark via Lyanna) and the blood of the CoTF (via Reed, as the crannogmen married the CoTF after the Pact + their appearance and traits are proof enough) flows through him.

Then Jon could be the most powerful warg/skinchanger ever, more than even Bran (though we don’t know about Jon’s greenseer abilities, if he has any). Best profile if he ends up as King of Winter/King-beyond-the-Wall/NightKing.

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/157180-king-jon-snow/

P.S. Could Jon skinchange with a dragon or two? Not kidding. OK, I ‘am. But answer it please!!

++++M+L=J could also be true (Mance-Abel-Bael the Bard-Lyanna- winter rose- Jon’s similarities with Mance-not killing him) if GRRM wishes to spite all those who support R+L=J .Me?, I support currently no theory with every theory having lots of proof and lots of holes at the same time.

[kissdbyfire]

No, just no. Please. 

Short and sweet, the timeline doesn’t work, it doesn’t make sense, there are no hints for either hypothesis. 

It’s past time we’ve moved on from these unfounded “theories” for Jon’s parentage (and while we’re at it, for Dany’s as well). Actually, it was past time 10 years ago already! 

 

[TheLastWolf]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

No, just no. Please. 

Short and sweet, the timeline doesn’t work, it doesn’t make sense, there are no hints for either hypothesis. 

It’s past time we’ve moved on from these unfounded “theories” for Jon’s parentage (and while we’re at it, for Dany’s as well). Actually, it was past time 10 years ago already! 

 

As I said 

1 hour ago, TheLastWolf said:

I support currently no theory with every theory having lots of proof and lots of holes at the same time.

Even those who oppose R+L=J have valid arguments. It's also cliché to quote a few. 

GRRM does the unconventional, and I'm just proposing an old idea as a possibility . FYI,  I was not old enough to read ASOIAF 10years ago BTW.

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, TheLastWolf said:

Even those who oppose R+L=J have valid arguments.

None that I’ve seen. The simple fact that some of these “theories” can’t be disproved at the moment doesn’t make for a very compelling argument. 

 

1 minute ago, TheLastWolf said:

It's also cliché to quote a few. 

How so? And how can anyone say it’s cliche before the whole thing is played out? 

1 minute ago, TheLastWolf said:

GRRM does the unconventional, and I'm just proposing an old idea as a possibility . FYI,  I was not old enough to read ASOIAF 10years ago BTW.

Yes, he does. But he does it carefully, organically, and he’s an extremely talented storyteller. Alternatives for R+L=J can’t be disproved yet b/c that’s how Martin is telling the story; the reveal will come when the time is right. And again, how can you or anyone say it would be cliche or too conventional when we don’t know yet what will happen after the reveal? 

[Ygrain]

59 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

Even those who oppose R+L=J have valid arguments. It's also cliché to quote a few. 

Any story that you build up poorly can become a cliché. I have full confidence that GRRM is not a poor writer, therefore he will pull RLJ in a non-clichéd way (not to mention that star-crossed lovers who both fucking die and don't achieve their goal is not a cliché).

59 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

FYI,  I was not old enough to read ASOIAF 10years ago BTW.

That explains a lot, my sweet summer child 

As @kissdbyfire said, the timeline doesn't fit - the Rebellion lasted for about a year, Lyanna went missing even prior, Jon was born about a month since the Sack, i.e. he was conceived only after the Rebelion broke out. That leaves only Rhaegar and his companions as potential fathers, and only Rhaegar as someone tied to Lyanna via the blue roses. Even if Howland could somehow get to Lyanna, there is zero indication of those two having an affair, and even if they did, there is zero reason why Ned shouldn't tell Cat (and Jon) - or why Lyanna should wish the child to remain with Ned when Howland could comfortably take the baby to the Neck, where 1) Robert would never learn he existed, and 2) Jon's bastardy wouldn't be a problem.

- Oh, and BTW, the fact that Howland and Ned survived the three KG doesn't mean they are badass swordsmen - in fact, we know that Ned isn't one (no-one ever thinks so about him and he loses to Royce). As for Howland, I'm firmly placing my bets on the use of the net to immobilize Arthur.

[Miss_Saffron]

I agree with all the points made by @kissdbyfire and @Ygrain.

And I would like to add one of my own: why would GRRM make HR the father - from a storytelling point of view? What would be purpose and meaning behind such a twist?

R+L, as was pointed out already, allows for exploration of the whole star-crossed lovers trope (which doesn't have to be handled in a cliche way at all). Alternatively, it could be exploration of 'stupid lenghts a man obsessed with a prophecy can go to' trope. Or both at the same time. On the other hand, H+L could be only exploration of the 'random shit thrown in to surprise the readers in the cheapest possible way' trope. And that is not a GRRM style. 

[Frey family reunion]

There was a time in Heresy where some of us made essays regarding possible parentages for Jon Snow.  At the time I championed Howland Reed.  

Although I made it way more complicated than this, the basic crux of my argument was that Howland Reed was the only person that Lyanna had an actual relationship with prior to her disappearance.  That what happened at Harrenhal could be an inverse of the typical Knight - Maiden relationship, where the Knight champions the Maiden’s honor.  Instead if Lyanna was indeed the Knight of the Laughing Tree, then Lyanna could be seen as the Knight championing Howland’s honor.

And of course if the genders were reversed it was easy to see how this scenario could start a romantic relationship between the two parties.  But the fact that it was Lyanna coming to the aid of Howland (as opposed to the reverse) people couldn’t see past their own preconceived notions of gender roles to see how this too could have been the start of a romantic relationship between the two.

So Lyanna runs off with Howland to avoid her marriage to Robert, and perhaps Howland took her to a place where they would have been blissfully unaware of the chaos that her disappearance led to, the Isle of Faces.  

Under this theory, Lyanna possibly gave birth to twins: Jon and Meera.

I found this bit particularly interesting:

Quote

The tower stood upon an island, its twin reflected on the still blue waters.

This is how the Queenscrown tower was first described.  The same tower where Meera hid within, while across the lake Jon (the twin) stood with Ygritte while a storm raged.

The reason of course that Ned would wish to keep Jon’s parentage secret in this scenario is to protect Howland from Robert’s possible wrath.  

I really liked this theory for a time.  The problem I had with it is it didn’t really give a good explanation for why Ned would want to keep this a secret from Cat.  Ultimately I really came up with only two good paternal possibilities that Ned would keep a secret from Cat as well.  And only one possibility where Ned would especially keep a secret from Cat.

[TheLastWolf]

34 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Ultimately I really came up with only two good paternal possibilities that Ned would keep a secret from Cat as well.  And only one possibility where Ned would especially keep a secret from Cat.

And what are those? I'd say because Cat was not so easily trusted. Sansa was like her, and see where it led. Ned got executed because of his own daughter who doesn't even accept her part in it or feels guilty... but blames Payne, Slynt and Joff. 

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

That explains a lot, my sweet summer child 

Thank you Ser Grandfather.. But all of this is speculation with nothing final... both yours and mine. 

[Frey family reunion]

12 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

And what are those? I'd say because Cat was not so easily trusted. Sansa was like her, and see where it led. Ned got executed because of his own daughter who doesn't even accept her part in it or feels guilty... but blames Payne, Slynt and Joff. 

Thank you Ser Grandfather.. But all of this is speculation with nothing final... both yours and mine. 

I think if Rhaegar was the father you could argue that the ramifications of this secret getting out would be too great to even entrust to your wife.  But the parentage possibility that Ned would especially want to keep from Cat above everyone would be if Brandon were the father.

This secret needs to be kept from everyone including Jon, because of the unpleasant incest angle.  But for Cat it would be an extremely personal affront, considering Brandon was her betrothed.  This revelation would probably only increase her antipathy towards Jon.  And then we have her paranoia concerning her chidlren's inheritence.  It would only be made worse if she saw Jon as Brandon's (the elder son and original heir the Winterfell) only son.

I personally never attributed Cat to being someone that Ned couldn't trust for most things.  I think she and Sansa are quite different in that regard.  Cat's main blind spot she seems to have, however, is certainly with Jon.

[Willam Stark]

Timeline doesn't fit with this alternative, another crackpot theory.

[Frey family reunion]

1 minute ago, Willam Stark said:

Timeline doesn't fit with this alternative, another crackpot theory.

Not true under certain caveats.  Lyanna could have conceived prior to any abduction but three scenarios have to be true:  She conceived almost immediately prior to her "abduction", the time period between her abduction and Arryn calling his banners had to be pretty short, probably within a month.  And the child probably had to be born sometime prior to the Battle of the Trident.

The last part may have some support from a so Spake Martin, if Martin was trying to line up Jon's birth with Dany's conception, when he estimated that Dany was born 8 to 9 months after Jon's birth.  Assuming of course that Dany was conceived when Jon Darry and Jaime Lannister stood guard outside of the queen's bedchamber.  This incident would have had to have happened prior to the Battle of the Trident because Jon Darry was still alive.

Now if Howland and Lyanna ran away together, and Brandon wrongly came to the conclusion that Rhaegar had abducted her (perhaps the blue roses from Harrenhal leading him to this conclusion) then the timeline is fairly open as to when Lyanna could have conceived Jon and then given birth.

[lehutin]

6 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Even those who oppose R+L=J have valid arguments. It's also cliché to quote a few. 

No, there really are no valid arguments at this point. I bet all of your cliché "valid arguments" are addressed in the R+L=J thread FAQ.

[Ygrain]

5 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

There was a time in Heresy where some of us made essays regarding possible parentages for Jon Snow.  

I remember that. The threads were many, and none convincing.

Quote

Howland Reed was the only person that Lyanna had an actual relationship with prior to her disappearance.

Did she? What about candidates like Ned/Brandon/Benjen? (Not that I ever entertained any such possibility, but those have been proposed throughout the years)

Besides, certain problems with this concept:

1) it may be incorrect - we know very little about Lyanna, who she met or not

2) it may be entirely irrelevant to her disappearance who she had been acquainted with or not

Quote

 That what happened at Harrenhal could be an inverse of the typical Knight - Maiden relationship, where the Knight champions the Maiden’s honor.  Instead if Lyanna was indeed the Knight of the Laughing Tree, then Lyanna could be seen as the Knight championing Howland’s honor.

Yeah, it is a nice reverse

Quote

And of course if the genders were reversed it was easy to see how this scenario could start a romantic relationship between the two parties.  But the fact that it was Lyanna coming to the aid of Howland (as opposed to the reverse) people couldn’t see past their own preconceived notions of gender roles to see how this too could have been the start of a romantic relationship between the two.

Two problems again:

1) if the scenario is a reverse, the traditional outcome is in no way a given

2) it is based on the meta approach,, not on the actual text

Quote

So Lyanna runs off with Howland to avoid her marriage to Robert, and perhaps Howland took her to a place where they would have been blissfully unaware of the chaos that her disappearance led to, the Isle of Faces.  

1) why would anyone think Rhaegar was involved, though?

2) would the Isle of Faces really be cut off from information flow?

Quote

Under this theory, Lyanna possibly gave birth to twins: Jon and Meera.

Always two there are, hmmm?

And why were the twins separated again?

Quote

The reason of course that Ned would wish to keep Jon’s parentage secret in this scenario is to protect Howland from Robert’s possible wrath. 

1) Robert hardly knows about Howland's existence, but even if he did, Howland

- didn't break any law

- is Ned's friend

- is perfectly safe in Greywater Watch

2) Ned would hardly feel the need to broadcast the information but even if he did, such parentage is not dangerous to his family

 

4 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Thank you Ser Grandfather..

Grandmother, if you please.

Quote

But all of this is speculation with nothing final... both yours and mine. 

If it makes you feel any better...

 

4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Not true under certain caveats.  Lyanna could have conceived prior to any abduction but three scenarios have to be true:  She conceived almost immediately prior to her "abduction", the time period between her abduction and Arryn calling his banners had to be pretty short, probably within a month.  And the child probably had to be born sometime prior to the Battle of the Trident.

Human pregnancy doesn't last about a year or close to a year, so no.

Quote

The last part may have some support from a so Spake Martin, if Martin was trying to line up Jon's birth with Dany's conception, when he estimated that Dany was born 8 to 9 months after Jon's birth.  Assuming of course that Dany was conceived when Jon Darry and Jaime Lannister stood guard outside of the queen's bedchamber.  This incident would have had to have happened prior to the Battle of the Trident because Jon Darry was still alive.

Dany is stated to be born 9 months after the Sack. That makes Jon born at the time of the Sack or later. Pushing the date towards an earlier time shortens the time window in which Ned could find Lyanna dying from birthing complications.

Quote

Now if Howland and Lyanna ran away together, and Brandon wrongly came to the conclusion that Rhaegar had abducted her (perhaps the blue roses from Harrenhal leading him to this conclusion) then the timeline is fairly open as to when Lyanna could have conceived Jon and then given birth.

Eh... wouldn't this terrible mistake of Brandon's come out, though? Making Brandon and everyone else involved look like that year's Darwin award winners? Can't believe that such a juicy gossip would never ever out.

Not to mention, why Lyanna would be found guarded by Rhaegar's closest pals, at a place which Rhaegar called "his tower of joy", and why Ned keeps obsessing about Lyanna in connection with flowers from none other than, you have guessed it, Rhaegar.

[The Fattest Leech]

8 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

As I said 

Even those who oppose R+L=J have valid arguments. It's also cliché to quote a few. 

GRRM does the unconventional, and I'm just proposing an old idea as a possibility . FYI,  I was not old enough to read ASOIAF 10years ago BTW.

GRRM doing the unconventional doesn't mean trickery or bait and switch storytelling. When he says the Butler did it, he's not going to change it to the chambermaid.

It seeeems like a cliche to some because they are bored waiting for the next book and certain topics have been talked to death and back again, but that doesn't mean the clearest path is the "worst". It's not that GRRM is undoing tropes (as often said by fans), but to me it reads that he doesn't give a shit about them and will use them if he wants, but uses them in his own way. His world, his rules. Patience, my friend, patience.

THE best and most fourth wall breaking line in any GRRM story is when Royd Eris of Nightflyers says," sadly, the truth is less dramatic."

[Bloodraven’s Spider]

I’m a firm believer that Jon is Ned’s.If by any chance that Jon is Howland’s then Meera is 100% his twin. 

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

I remember that. The threads were many, and none convincing.

Ha, alwasy a pleasure.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

Well obviously R+L=J, but my personal guess is that it's Rickard's corpse + Lyanna = Jon Snow

[Miss_Saffron]

7 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

I'd say because Cat was not so easily trusted

I don't think Ned had reason to suspect Cat of being inherently untrustworthy. It's more that by the point he returned with Jon he had no reasons to trust her either. Remember that they married without much courtship (therefore an opportunity for them to develop mutual trust), he left her the next day and he returned after a year with a baby he swore to protect in tow. 

But I have other, supplemental theory as well. Ned actually did father a bastard - with Ashara. He learned about that when he returned Arthur's sword to the Daynes. And when she killed herself because of the combined grief of losing her baby, Ned and finally Arthur as well, Ned was crushed with a guilt of it all and wanted (even if just subconsciously) to be condemned for that. So he told Cate the truth in a way, aware this might sour their relationship forever, but convinced that was the punishment je deserved. He just presented a diferent baby as the bastard.

1 hour ago, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

I’m a firm believer that Jon is Ned’s

For a long time I wished this would be the truth, but alas, I think that ship has sailed a long time ago. 

[Curled Finger]

So who is Bran's father?  

[Ser Leftwich]

This isn't even crackpot. This is an impossibility.