“H+L=J” v?.0

[Ser Leftwich]

On 7/13/2020 at 4:13 AM, TheLastWolf said:

Glass candles need to be with both of those who are communicating. It's like a scrying bowl from the Inheritance cycle (eragon) and this explanation is also just a theory. 

 

This is from the books? Where is it explained how the glass candles work? (Pretty sure it is not.)

[Frey family reunion]

On 7/15/2020 at 11:17 AM, kissdbyfire said:

Well, we do know Jon is 8 - 9 months older than Dany.

We also know that Dany was probably conceived before the Trident.  Since Jon Darry stood guard for her conception.

On 7/15/2020 at 11:17 AM, kissdbyfire said:

I’m assuming this is a slip, yeah? The Rebellion lasted close to a year. And IMO “close to a year” means less than a year; say, ~ 10 months. 

Yes, I was typing faster than I was thinking.  The war lasted close to a year when the sack occurrs.

On 7/15/2020 at 11:17 AM, kissdbyfire said:

But then Jon would be significantly older than Robb. I know this isn’t an issue for some, but it is for me. Regardless of who is older, Jon and Robb have to be close enough in age, or else a lot of things don’t make sense. My best guesstimate is that the difference between the two has to be roughly 3 months; perhaps less but definitely not more.

He would have to be older, I'm not sure how older.  I've heard a lot of arguments that the Battle of the Bells took place only 3 to 4 months after the start of the war.  I personally think that's too soon, but in reality it helps my theory out a bit.   If there was a significant period of time between the Bells and the Trident then that decreases how much older Jon has to be then Robb.  We're still probably looking at at least 4 to 6 months older though.

On 7/15/2020 at 11:17 AM, kissdbyfire said:

But... Rickard was coming down from the North, and Brandon rides from Riverrun to meet the party when he hears of Lyanna’s “. abduction”. I know a lot of people dismiss info from the app, but I see no reason to do so, especially irt this. 

Yes Rickard was coming down from the North and Brandon was leaving Riverrun to meet them.  Presumably then they met up somewhere inbetween.  I'm suggesting that they all converged at Harrenhal.  

[Willam Stark]

On 7/10/2020 at 5:24 PM, Frey family reunion said:

Not true under certain caveats.  Lyanna could have conceived prior to any abduction but three scenarios have to be true:  She conceived almost immediately prior to her "abduction", the time period between her abduction and Arryn calling his banners had to be pretty short, probably within a month.  And the child probably had to be born sometime prior to the Battle of the Trident.

The last part may have some support from a so Spake Martin, if Martin was trying to line up Jon's birth with Dany's conception, when he estimated that Dany was born 8 to 9 months after Jon's birth.  Assuming of course that Dany was conceived when Jon Darry and Jaime Lannister stood guard outside of the queen's bedchamber.  This incident would have had to have happened prior to the Battle of the Trident because Jon Darry was still alive.

Now if Howland and Lyanna ran away together, and Brandon wrongly came to the conclusion that Rhaegar had abducted her (perhaps the blue roses from Harrenhal leading him to this conclusion) then the timeline is fairly open as to when Lyanna could have conceived Jon and then given birth.

Sorry but no, Howland was with Ned during all the rebellion and Jon has been conceived in the late 282 to early 283, the war had already started. 

If we assume that Lyanna is Jon's mother, then the father can only be Rhaegar, or one of his companions but it's unlikely.

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, Willam Stark said:

Sorry but no, Howland was with Ned during all the rebellion and Jon has been conceived in the late 282 to early 283, the war had already started. 

If we assume that Lyanna is Jon's mother, then the father can only be Rhaegar, or one of his companions but it's unlikely.

Sorry but no, all GRRM has stated about Howland Reed's involvement during the war is this:

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I'm curious about a few matters concerning Howland Reed (with a name like that I always think he should be a Blues performer) During the Robert's rebellion was Howland the only Crannogman to play a part? Did Howland fight by Ned's side throughout or was accompanying him to the Tower of Joy a one off?

No, he was part of the northern host through the war.

and from the books/Bran's POV all we know is that 

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And yet Howland Reed had been one of Father's staunchest companions during the war for King Robert's crown, before Bran was born.

We dont' know role Howland played during the war or whether he was "with Ned during all of the rebellion".  It very well may be that Howland's role in the war often took him away from Ned.  All we specificallyknow is that Howland was with Reed at the time of the tower of joy.

We also don't know about Howland Reed's whereabouts before the war do we?  After all the war did not start when Lyanna was abducted, but only after Rickard and Brandon were killed and Arryn called the banners.  

But regardless what you quoted from me didn't specifically have to do with Howland (it was specifcally referencing Brandon).  It had to do with the possibility that Lyanna could have conceived Jon prior to her "adbuction".

[TheLastWolf]

On 7/10/2020 at 3:40 PM, TheLastWolf said:

Let us again go back to Harrenhal where Robert Baratheon and Richard Lonmouth, (Rhaegar’s former squire and probably one of his 6/7 best mates who rode with him when they took Lyanna) vowed to unmask the Mystery Knight. I think that Lonmouth found that the mystery knight was Lyanna/Howland and that they were in a relationship. Good think that Lonmouth succeeded where Robert failed (Robert had no cause to hate Reed like he did Rhaegar, but he was Robert after all and we do not know what he’d have done if he learnt about his betrothed being with another man). I also think that Lonmouth is now…Lem Lemoncloak of the BwB  ( see ladygwynhyfvar’s article about it).

https://ladygwynhyfvar.com/2014/02/03/lemuncloaked-the-true-identity-of-lem-lemoncloak/

LEM'S SIGNIFICANCE IN JONS PARENTAGE.

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 At the very least he would be one of the few attendees of the Harrenhal tourney who is still alive.  This would place him in the same category as the elusive Howland Reed of One Who Knows Much and More.

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 if he was a part of the search for the knight of the laughing tree, and some revelation was made, Ser Richard could be possessed of interesting insight into the story of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark.

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Who among us hasn’t wondered at the true identity of the charming Lem Lemoncloak? One of the leaders of the Brotherhood without Banners, Lem appears on the page with no true name and no history, although we have names and stories for many of his fellows, including several of far less significance to the narrative. Some time ago a chance combination of musings inspired by the questions of fellow posters at westeros.org led me to connect Lem with another character whose name is mentioned but once and who is alluded to on only one other occasion. What would lead one to connect Lem with Ser Richard Lonmouth, erstwhile squire and companion of Prince Rhaegar Targaryen? To be honest, at first it was nothing more than the colour of his cloak combined with the conviction that the knight of skull and kisses is meant to be significant. But it turns out that there are quite a few textual hints that support the connection. While I initially laid this theory out on my own, much credit must be given to posters at westeros who picked up this cracked pot and ran with it. I don’t think it’s an exaggeration to say that with their help, this pot will now hold water.

In ASoS chapter 43, the Ghost of High Heart demands payment for her news:

“A skin of wine for my dreams, and for my news a kiss from the great oaf in the yellow cloak…His mouth will taste of lemons and mine of bones“

Earlier, the GoHH was consulted regarding Lord Beric’s whereabouts. At that meeting, the little woman who speaks of everyone in terms of their sigils and representations of their Houses, had this exchange with Lem:

“Dreams,” grumbled Lem Lemoncloak, “what good are dreams? Fish women and drowned crows. I had a dream myself last night. I was kissing this tavern wench I used to know. Are you going to pay me for that, old woman?”

“The wench is dead,” the woman hissed. “Only worms may kiss her now.” ASoS, chapter 17

With the bard Tom o’ Sevens the connecting reference at both meetings is a song. For Lem … kisses.

The arms of House Lonmouth have been described as “quartered of six: red lips strewn on yellow, yellow skulls strewn on black.” It was the connection of kisses, skulls (bones) and yellow with Lem which provided the “aha!” But the connections do not end there.

When Arya first meets him, she thinks he has the look of a soldier:

The man beside him stood a good foot taller, and had the look of a soldier. A longsword and dirk hung from his studded leather belt, rows of overlapping steel rings were sewn onto his shirt, and his head was covered by a black iron half-helm shaped like a cone. He had bad teeth and a bushy brown beard, but it was his hooded yellow cloak that drew the eye. Thick and heavy, and stained here with grass and there with blood, frayed along the bottom and patched with deerskin on the right shoulder, the greatcloak gave the big man the look of some huge yellow bird. ASoS, chapter 13

From lack of direct reference, it appears that he was not one of the original company that set out from King’s Landing with Lord Beric, but one of those who joined the Brotherhood in the Riverlands. Yet he does make a possibly revealing comment in this exchange:

Anguy the Archer said, “We’re king’s men.”

Arya frowned. “Which king?”

“King Robert,” said Lem, in his yellow cloak. ASoS, chapter 13

How to explain a large man loyal to Robert who has the look of a soldier, wears a distinctive yellow cloak and was living in the Riverlands prior to Lord Beric’s mission? Let’s take a look at the bare facts of Richard Lonmouth. We know that he was once Prince Rhaegar’s squire and companion:

Myles Mooton was Prince Rhaegar’s squire, and Richard Lonmouth after him. When they won their spurs, he knighted them himself, and they remained his close companions. ASoS, chapter 8

We also know that House Lonmouth was a stormlands house, and that Ser Richard was a one-time drinking companion to the Lord of the Stormlands, Robert Baratheon:

The storm lord drank down the knight of skulls and kisses in a wine-cup war. ASoS, chapter 24

Knowing Robert’s reputation as a prodigious drinker, Ser Richard must have been of a similar bent, to engage him so. Lem is a large man also known to enjoy his drink:

Lem Lemoncloak pushed forward. He and Greenbeard were the only men there tall enough to look the Hound in the eye. ASoS, chapter 34

“You must have been drunk, or asleep.”

“Us? Drunk?”  Tom drank a long draught of ale. “Never.” ASoS, chapter 13

We are never told which side Ser Richard joined Robert’s Rebellion on.  Myles Mooton fought for the Targaryens and was killed at Stoney Sept by Robert Baratheon himself. Even the last we hear of Lonmouth doesn’t give a clear indication. Following the appearance of the Knight of the Laughing Tree at the Harrenhal tourney:

That night at the great castle, the storm lord and the knight of skulls and kisses each swore they would unmask him, and the king himself urged men to challenge him, declaring that the face behind the helm was no friend of his … The king was wroth and even sent his son the dragon prince to seek the man, but all they ever found was his painted shield. ASoS, chapter 24

Here we have no clear indication of which House he would side with: that of his friend and mentor Rhaegar Targaryen or that of his drinking buddy and overlord Robert Baratheon. But perhaps the words of House Lonmouth might be a hint that Ser Richard did indeed take a side.

The Choice is Yours

In his role of hangman for the Brotherhood, Lem is carrying out sentences based on a choice. In the case of Merret Frey, Lem gives the choice to Lady Stoneheart:

“She don’t speak,” said the big man in the yellow cloak. “You bloody bastards cut her throat too deep for that. But she remembers.” He turned to the dead woman and said. “What do you say, m’lady? Was he part of it?” ASoS, Epilogue

At Brienne’s “trial” the choice is given by the northman, while the sentence is carried out by Lem:

The northman said, “She says that you must choose. Take the sword and slay the Kingslayer, or be hanged for a betrayer. The sword or the noose, she says. Choose, she says. Choose.” AFfC, chapter 42

Lem is involved in choices being offered by the BwB, while there is also enough evidence to speculate he has made other fateful choices in his past. While “choice” can be seen as a major theme of ASoIaF, the fact that it is prominently featured in the house words of a minor house seems almost like a flag saying “look closely here”! Looking closely in this case has certainly led to some interesting theorizing.

Treading into speculative territory with the theme of choice, I’m going to suggest that Richard chose his overlord, Robert Baratheon and fought on his behalf during the Rebellion.  Just after Arya, Gendry and Hot Pie are taken in by the BwB the company arrives at the Inn of the Kneeling Man. Here the young people are given ale by the innkeeper’s wife because she has no milk or clean water to offer:

“…the river water tastes of war, with all the dead men drifting downstream. If I served you a cup of soup full of dead flies, would you drink it?”

“Arry would,” said Hot Pie. “I mean, Squab.”

“So would Lem,” offered Anguy with a sly smile. ASoS, chapter 13

Why would Anguy say such a thing? Could it be that Lem once drifted in the river with the dead? Much later the Elder Brother on the Quiet Isle tells Brienne his story of being left for dead in the river after the Battle of the Trident, and washing up downriver, alive and reborn to a new life. Could something similar have happened to Lem?

Later, Lem reveals some local knowledge that just might indicate he was in the area as these events occurred:

“Lord Lychester’s sons died in Robert’s Rebellion,” grumbled Lem. “Some on one side, some on t’other. He’s not been right in the head since.” ASoS, chapter 17

And finally at the Peach, the brothel in Stoney Sept where Robert may have taken refuge before the battle, Tansy has this to say to Lem:

“…Lem is that you? Still wearing the same ratty cloak are you? I know why you never wash it, I do. You’re afraid all the piss will wash out and we’ll see you’re really a knight o’ the Kingsguard!” ASoS, chapter 29

If Lem is Richard Lonmouth, he might have been present at Stoney Sept with Robert and be known to Tansy from that event.  If she had knowledge of him being a knight in service to the man who went on to become the king, it might well explain her “Kingsguard” joke. But why vanish from the page then? Speculation brings us back to AFfC, and Brienne’s POV. In chapter 25 Septon Meribald describes to Brienne, Pod and Ser Hyle the inner turmoil of the broken man.

“…even a man who has survived a hundred fights can break in his hundred-and-first. Brothers watch their brothers die, fathers lose their sons, friends see their friends trying to hold their entrails in after they’ve been gutted by an axe … They take a wound, and when that’s half-healed they take another … And one day they look around and realize all their friends and kin are gone … And the knights come down on them, faceless men clad all in steel, and the iron thunder of their charge seems to fill the world … And the man breaks.”

Meribald makes it clear that anyone can break, at any time. Every man has his limit and it’s just possible Ser Richard reached it in the aftermath of the Trident.  Two references make me believe this could be what happened to Lem:

“Bugger that,” said Lem Lemoncloak. “He’s our god too, and you owe us for your bloody lives. And what’s false about him? Might be your Smith can mend a broken sword, but can he heal a broken man?” ASoS, chapter 39

“You are not the only one with wounds, Lady Brienne. Some of my brothers were good men when this began…” AFfC, chapter 42

I’ve already suggested that Anguy’s “sly” comment may indicate that Lem went into the river with the dead at one time. Let’s suppose that Richard Lonmouth went into the river after the Battle of the Trident, as the Elder Brother did. If he was fished out and nursed back to health by some kind soul, it would have been some time before he was able to get news of what had happened in the battle and afterwards. Would he have been devastated to know that his friend the Prince had been killed by his overlord? Would the guilt of his choice have weighed heavily on him? Certainly that would be enough to cause a break. But I think there’s even more at play here. I’m speculating that Ser Richard chose the winning side, so why wouldn’t he have emerged at some point to claim his reward from his overlord and new King? Assuming Lem is Ser Richard, I think the explanation behind his abiding hatred of Lannisters might be the final piece of the puzzle. We don’t for sure know why Lem hates Lannisters so much, or if Richard Lonmouth was ever married. But we do know that Lem Lemoncloak was married, and had a child:

“I want my wife and daughter back,” said the Hound. “Can your father give me that?” AFfC, chapter 42

Going right on assuming Lem and Richard are one and the same, I will posit that Richard Lonmouth’s family was in King’s Landing during the Rebellion. Perhaps his wife came from a loyalist family, perhaps they thought it would be a safe place to retreat to. But we know that when the Lannisters sacked the city there was no mercy for anyone, from the royal family down to the poorest smallfolk. Could his wife and daughter have been among the casualties? It might explain his need to hang “lions” and judging by his comment, his association of them with that act. Finally, Lannisters being the new good-family of his former overlord might make it once and for all impossible to come forward and publicly serve Robert.

Because a revelation of this sort would require a narrative purpose, we return to the Tourney of Harrenhal and the knight of skulls and kisses vow to unmask the knight of the laughing tree (whom most of us assume to be Lyanna Stark.) We know that GRRM uses thematic parallels frequently in his narrative. We also know that Arya Stark bears a resemblance to her aunt:

“Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it. You remind me of her sometimes. You even look like her.” AGoT, chapter 22

Looking at some of the interactions between Arya and Lem, one incident in particular stands out. When Arya learns that she is in truth the prisoner of the BwB, she attempts to flee:

…when she glanced back over her shoulder four of them were coming after her, Anguy and Harwin and Greenbeard racing side by side with Lem farther back, his big yellow cloak flapping behind him as he rode. ASoS, chapter 17

It’s easy enough to imagine a similar scene with Lyanna pursued over similar ground by a group including Ser Richard Lonmouth.  Later, almost like a sly nod to this possibility Tom sings to Arya:

Tom winked at her as he sang:

And how she smiled and how she laughed,

the maiden of the tree.

She spun away and said to him,

No featherbed for me.

I’ll wear a gown of golden leaves,

And bind my hair with grass.

But you can be my forest love,

and me your forest lass.

ASoS, chapter 17

Here then we arrive at a possible narrative purpose for Lem being Richard Lonmouth. He might be able to shed light of Rhaegar and Lyanna’s first interaction, the reason Rhaegar crowned Lyanna QoLaB and possibly (if he remained in the Prince’s confidence) events that came after. At the very least he would be one of the few attendees of the Harrenhal tourney who is still alive.  This would place him in the same category as the elusive Howland Reed of One Who Knows Much and More.

In conclusion, Ser Richard Lonmouth, whose house colours are black and yellow, is never mentioned after his cameo at the Tourney of Harrenhal. During the Wot5K an outlaw of no known name or history appears in the Riverlands wearing a distinctive yellow cloak of heavy (and most likely at one time, expensive) cloth. In his arc, Lem is associated with kisses and choices, both known motifs of House Lonmouth. Based on these associations, a connection between the two can be made. Close reading further allows us to enter into some speculation to fill in the details of the intervening years. Finally, as to the significance of this theory, if he was a part of the search for the knight of the laughing tree, and some revelation was made, Ser Richard could be possessed of interesting insight into the story of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark.

Addendum, December 2014:

With new information now available from TWoIaF, the Supreme Court of Westeros taking up the case, and E09 of Radio Westeros presenting the theory in audio format, the time seems right for a short addendum. TWoIaF tells us that Ser Richard Lonmouth was among Rhaegar’s supporters at court when there was an obvious divide between Rhaegar and Aerys:

Prince Rhaegar’s support came from the younger men at court, including Lord Jon Connington, Ser Myles Mooton of Maidenpool, and Ser Richard Lonmouth. The Dornishmen who had come to court with the Princess Elia were in the prince’s confidence as well, particularly Prince Lewyn Martell, Elia’s uncle and a Sworn Brother of the Kingsguard. But the most formidable of all Rhaegar’s friends and allies in King’s Landing was surely Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning.

Since this description comes during a discussion of court politics and conspiration around the time of the Tourney of Harrenhal, the implication seems to be that Lonmouth supported regime change. Next from TWoIaF is the strong hint that Lonmouth accompanied Rhaegar into the Riverlands on that fateful mission that resulted in the disappearance of Lyanna Stark:

With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the riverlands, not ten leagues from Harrenhal . . . where Rhaegar would once again come face-to-face with Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, and with her light a fire that would consume his house and kin and all those he loved—and half the realm besides.

Let’s revisit Ser Barristan’s information: “Myles Mooton was Prince Rhaegar’s squire, and Richard Lonmouth after him. When they won their spurs, he knighted them himself, and they remained his close companions” With that in mind, combined with the information in TWoIaF, we can surmise that the half dozen companions were most likely Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent (as previously revealed in the WoIaF app) Mooton and Lonmouth (both identified as close companions of the Prince on more than one occasion) and possibly Connington and Prince Lewyn Martell, whom TWoIaF indicates were also strong supporters of Rhaegar.

Given the outcome of the Rhaegar and Lyanna situation, with Aerys executing Rickard and Brandon Stark and calling for the heads of two of his Lords Paramount, we propose that Richard Lonmouth chose Robert in the Rebellion in order to effect that regime change it was earlier implied he supported. Remember that quite early on Rhaegar was well out of things and the Rebellion was technically against Aerys, aimed at removing an increasingly mad tyrant from power. Rhaegar’s eventual involvement– no doubt out of a sense of duty to his House and perhaps an effort to safeguard his children in King’s Landing– would play right into the themes of choice and the broken man that were identified earlier.

For the record it doesn’t seem like we’ll have to wait too long to put this theory to the test. Last we saw of the Riverlands in ADwD, one person who likely knew Richard Lonmouth was on a collision course with Lem Lemoncloak and is a strong candidate for a reveal. When Jaime Lannister resurfaces he may find himself in for a surprise reunion with someone from his past.

 

[TheLastWolf]

I would like to add something which may sound crazy.... 

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  11 hours ago, @Bloodraven's Spidersaid:

Nan + Aerys = Jon

 

Aerys being Jon's father is crazy.......but possible. See the post by @Orm

 

in https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/157222-grrms-world-and-its-resemblances-to-our-real-one-from-religion-to-politics-and-geography-to-wildlife/

 

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Hmm...... The climax of the Battle of the Trident seems eerily similar to Thor killing Jormungandr in Norse mythology.....

 

Both events are a sort of a poisoned victory and are followed and preceded by a chain of doomsday events......

 

If Rhaegar is Jormungadr and Robert is Thor, then Aerys is Loki. Then Fenrir/s wolf is Jon

 

[TheLastWolf]

18 hours ago, Ser Leftwich said:

On 7/13/2020 at 3:43 PM, TheLastWolf said:

Glass candles need to be with both of those who are communicating. It's like a scrying bowl from the Inheritance cycle (eragon) and this explanation is also just a theory. 

 

This is from the books? Where is it explained how the glass candles work? (Pretty sure it is not.)

Please see the emboldened text. The explanation(s) which I referred to as just theory(ies) were both that of mine and @Ygrain 's.

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For Quaithe, there is already an in-world explanation: glass candles.

I'm not sure about my explanation of the working of Glass candles, and also say that Ygrain must also not be sure. Because,the facts are not complete and we do not know if either of our explanations are for a certainity.

POSSIBLE WAYS HOW GLASS CANDLES WORK

 

the next is a series of excerpts from the Wiki (click it to see)

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1. It is claimed that when the glass candles burn the sorcerers can see across mountains, seas and deserts, give men visions and dreams and communicate with one another half a world apart.

2. It was reported that glass candles that had not burned in a hundred years were now burning in the house of Urrathon Night-Walker. (in Qarth)

3. Leo Tyrell reports that the glass candle is burning in Marwyn's study.^[1] There is a black glass candle burning in Marwyn's study on the Isle of Ravens when Samwell Tarly arrives there. When Sam asks Alleras how they knew he was coming, Alleras nods at the glass candle.

4. One night in the apex of the Great Pyramid of Meereen Daenerys Targaryen is unable to sleep. She leaves her private chambers and heads for the terrace garden where she decides to take a bath alone in the terrace pool.

   As she is bathing Daenerys hears a noise and sees Quaithe standing under a persimmon tree, clad in a hooded robe long enough to touch the grass at her feet. Daenerys wonders how an intruder could get past her guards. Quaithe replies that she "came another way", and that the guards never saw her.

   Quaithe then delivers to Daenerys another cryptic warning that starts with "The glass candles are burning. . ." ^[4]

• The phrase "can see across mountains, seas and deserts" can be taken as something similar to Bran's Weirnet visions.
• The phrase "give men visions" can be interpreted as what it is, literally.....like how Ygrain did....Or not. I see no reason to take it at face value, especially something so powerful as it. Why can it not be visions in dreams and not like how Dany experienced?
• The phrase "communicate with one another half a world apart"  led me to the idea of something similar to Eragon's scrying bowls and our Zoom meetings.
• Jumping to the last point, I see that the phrase "came another way' also supports this. Why should Quaithe say that she came (sounds literal) if it was a glass candle vision like @Ygrain claims? And IIRC, traces of her appearance, like smell or something remained at the apex after she disappeared. That supports teleportation.
• Quaithe's warning about the glass candles could easily be about the maesters (grey sheep) finding about her and sending someone to kill her. If she is Shiera Seastar, this point is supported.
• Even if Quaithe used glass candles, how could she have mastered them so quickly when they had not burned for a loooooong time?(with dragons dead then, glass candles would not have worked even in Shiera Seastar's time)
• The points about glass candles burning in the Mage's room is just what it is, no more.
• The part about that Night Walker is confusing and I suggest that you check that thread/topic whose link I embedded above.
• But there are certain theories in the wiki about that Urrathon(click it to view)

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  It has been theorized that Urrathon Night-Walker, a character supposedly living in Qarth mentioned in A Clash of Kings, is actually Euron Greyjoy using an alias.

  Supporting Evidence

  Urrathon and similar names (such as Urragon) are common among the ironborn. Euron has been to Qarth. Another character named Urrathon, High King Urrathon IV Goodbrother, is known as "Badbrother". Some readers have taken this as a hint by George R. R. Martin, as Euron is a bad brother to Balon, Victarion, and Aeron.

  • Urrathon Badbrother was known for his arrogance and impiety, and was opposed by the priests in the kingsmoot. The exact same can be said for Euron Greyjoy.

   

• HERE'S MORE ANYWAY...

 

[kissdbyfire]

Pasting huge walls of text written by other people isn’t really supporting what you believe in. Just sayin’.

[TheLastWolf]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Pasting huge walls of text written by other people isn’t really supporting what you believe in. Just sayin’.

I really can't help you if don't have the patience to read them ( though I confess that neither do I, usually). Usually I just post links, but I had to make an exception for Lady Gwyn's splendid article. Besides, people who are not so interested in some topics don't go into links, so I had to bring the text to them. And since English is not my first language (nor my second or third), I could not spend valuable time (I'm a student BTW) typing out points in a less convincing way than those who have already put them in a best way. 

Aaaaand......, I'm not the one to blame if you chose to take in only those HUGE walls of text and ignore my original points like in my last reply for your convenience........ Just saying, you know? 

[Bloodraven’s Spider]

No just stop...

[TheLastWolf]

1 hour ago, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

No just stop...

How Wude!!! Mesa disagree. 

[Ser Leftwich]

4 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Please see the emboldened text. The explanation(s) which I referred to as just theory(ies) were both that of mine and @Ygrain 's.

The way it was phrased was weird.

[The Green Bard]

On 7/10/2020 at 9:11 AM, Ygrain said:

not to mention that star-crossed lovers who both fucking die and don't achieve their goal is not a cliché

Ahem, Romeo and Juliet is not cliché?

GRRM all but confirmed that Lyanna is Jon's mom in his "An Ending" notablog post last May, so at least OP is right about the mom and the cliché, if not right about anything else. 

@TheLastWolf while I am certainly more receptive to alternative parentage theories than many, ultimately, we would need for the author to have hinted at this, which he hasn't done.  Yes, you refer to their meeting, but getting your ass kicked by three boys isn't exactly going to be the best way to woo a woman.  Beyond that I don't see much else to base your theory about Jon's parentage, and since I have just trashed that, well...  

On 7/10/2020 at 6:10 AM, TheLastWolf said:

Then Jon could be the most powerful warg/skinchanger ever, more than even Bran (though we don’t know about Jon’s greenseer abilities, if he has any). Best profile if he ends up as King of Winter/King-beyond-the-Wall/NightKing.

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/157180-king-jon-snow/

P.S. Could Jon skinchange with a dragon or two? Not kidding. OK, I ‘am. But answer it please!!

I see that you are interested in warging / skinchanging / and the bond to dragons.  I'd say that under R+L=J, Jon does have all those abilities.  THis is a much more fulfilling path, and the one I choose to subscribe to at this point. 

I consider myself the foremost fandom expert in the area of magical bonds to magical beasts, so I'd urge you to read my essays on the wolves and on Dany and her dragons (more on dragons coming soon).  Or You could watch my YT series on the wolves.  Peace.

[kissdbyfire]

4 hours ago, The Green Bard said:

I consider myself the foremost fandom expert in the area of magical bonds to magical beasts,

Well, at least you’re clear that your legendary foremost expert status was bestowed on you... by yourself!

Nice one!

[The Green Bard]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Well, at least you’re clear that your legendary foremost expert status was bestowed on you... by yourself!

Nice one!

Lol, Well, if you want something done right...  

[TheLastWolf]

Quote

While it's possible that there will be a new "father-son" gift or inheritance of a cloak from Mance to Jon, it strikes me as inconsistent with the pattern of symbols for cloaks on the one hand and father-son gifts on the other hand. (I realize Mance is not literally Jon's father, but the symbolism is strong.)

@SeanFcould be right and wrong in some places. Read the whole theory. It also promotes MLJ in many places.

 

 

[TheLastWolf]

On 7/18/2020 at 12:31 PM, TheLastWolf said:

@SeanFcould be right and wrong in some places. Read the whole theory. It also promotes MLJ in many places.

 

 

Adding to this I think that Mance/Abel singing The Dornishman's Wife with the said Dornishman being replaced by the Northman/Northern Lord/Northerner's wife (I forgot the exact word used) is a hint to him deflowering Lyanna, if M+L=J is true. Also Bael the Bard is the name which Mance takes while coming to rescue fArya, albeit in an anagram of A-B-E-L. This is another hint. 

Lord Commander Qorgyle traveled to Winterfell to meet with Lord Eddard Stark, with Mance among the black brothers escorting him. In Winterfell, he encountered the young Robb Stark and Jon Snow playing a prank, and promised not to tell.

Maybe Mance came to see his son?

Quote

in Lyanna's tomb, most probably Rhaegar's Harp or Howland Reed's Knight of the Laughing tree shield or Mance Rayder's lute. It will prove Jon's parentage among other proofs

All said, I still am not finalised on any Jon parentage theories. See above, a quote from one of my other posts.

[lehutin]

6 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

All said, I still am not finalised on any Jon parentage theories.

Please list your objections to R+L=J that are not addressed in the thread FAQ.

[TheLastWolf]

14 hours ago, lehutin said:

20 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

All said, I still am not finalised on any Jon parentage theories.

Please list your objections to R+L=J that are not addressed in the thread FAQ.

Hope you know that there are countless threads, topics, blogs and videos about Jon’s parentage @lehutinespecially points against the common RLJ theory. I don’t wish to bore everyone with all those fine points about it being obvious, cliché, romanticizing Rhaegar and Lyanna, Ned’s other options (in the case of RLJ being true) which he did not take and sacrificed his honor instead and more.

I can only repeat those points if I wish to oppose RLJ, which I don’t. My reasons are much simpler. Why can’t it be otherwise? How can we be so sure while other options are nearly as likely? Note that I did not express any certainty about any of the theories, be it H or R or M or N who is the father. Don’t get started about the mothers, please. What I mean to say is that there is room for doubt and argument in this particular issue.

If you have seen the Henry Fonda film, 12 Angry Men, you’d understand what I’m saying. Long story short, a single jurist tries and manages to convince the rest 11 of the accused’s innocence. He says that he does not know the real murderer or even if the boy is guilty or not, just that it is not an issue to be discussed in 5 minutes for catching the 8 pm ball game.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12_Angry_Men_(1957_film)

 

[lehutin]

9 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Hope you know that there are countless threads, topics, blogs and videos about Jon’s parentage @lehutinespecially points against the common RLJ theory.

I do know that. That is why I asked you to "Please list your objections to R+L=J that are not addressed in the thread FAQ." If that was not clear, I was referring to the "R+L=J" thread, now in its 167th version.

9 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

I don’t wish to bore everyone with all those fine points about it being obvious, cliché, romanticizing Rhaegar and Lyanna, Ned’s other options (in the case of RLJ being true) which he did not take and sacrificed his honor instead and more.

"obvious, cliché, romanticizing Rhaegar and Lyanna" is addressed in the thread FAQ:

Quote

George R.R. Martin is a "breaker of tropes, there can be no hidden prince, it's simply too cliché.

In order to break a trope it needs to be installed in the first place. It is yet unknown what will happen to Jon in the future. Being the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar does not imply the fairy-tale style happy ending associated with the hidden prince trope.

"Ned’s other options (in the case of RLJ being true) which he did not take and sacrificed his honor instead" isn't in the thread FAQ and sounds a lot more interesting.

 

The reason I find it interesting is that "other options" are one of the biggest objections I have to fanfic theories like RLD etc. Authors of those theories always dismiss "other options" in favor of convoluted Rube Goldberg plots that involve gratuitous and/or dangerous baby swaps etc.

 

So what are these other options (assuming RLJ) that Ned did not take?

9 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

If you have seen the Henry Fonda film, 12 Angry Men, you’d understand what I’m saying.

I have seen that film. It's a classic that has aged marvelously. But your analogy doesn't apply here for several reasons.

1. It's not like we're deciding Jon's parentage in a hot summer non-air conditioned room under a time limit.
2. It's also not true and frankly arrogant to imply that people who disagree with you are like Juror 7, who just want to go with the path of least resistance to get it over with: Jon's parentage has been extensively discussed for nearly 25 years.

Most importantly, 12 Angry Men illustrates how the standard of "reasonable doubt" is supposed to work in the American criminal justice system, which for obvious reasons doesn't apply in the case of a fictional mystery.

 

But even if you want to apply the standard of "reasonable doubt," note that it's reasonable doubt. Not just doubt. After nearly 25 years, there isn't any reasonable doubt left about RLJ. Lyanna Stark is Jon Snow's mother, which rapidly dwindles the list of potential fathers down to one: Rhaegar Targaryen.

 

Howland, Mance, etc. turn ASOIAF into a run-of-mill soap opera. Not a reasonable doubt. Ned, Brandon, etc. turn ASOIAf into a run-of-the-mill incest porn scene. Again, not a reasonable doubt.