“H+L=J” v?.0

[Frey family reunion]

11 minutes ago, lehutin said:

Ned, Brandon, etc. turn ASOIAf into a run-of-the-mill incest porn scene.

I hate it when my incest porn is run of the mill.  

[TheLastWolf]

18 hours ago, lehutin said:

On 7/21/2020 at 10:55 AM, TheLastWolf said:

Hope you know that there are countless threads, topics, blogs and videos about Jon’s parentage @lehutinespecially points against the common RLJ theory.

I do know that. That is why I asked you to "Please list your objections to R+L=J that are not addressed in the thread FAQ." If that was not clear, I was referring to the "R+L=J" thread, now in its 167th version.

Add that anything I could say against RLJ has already been said before. My bad, forgot it. Instead I went on about how boring it'd be.

18 hours ago, lehutin said:

On 7/21/2020 at 10:55 AM, TheLastWolf said:

I don’t wish to bore everyone with all those fine points about it being obvious, cliché, romanticizing Rhaegar and Lyanna, Ned’s other options (in the case of RLJ being true) which he did not take and sacrificed his honor instead and more.

"obvious, cliché, romanticizing Rhaegar and Lyanna" is addressed in the thread FAQ:

Yes I know. That is why I said I don't want to bore ya'll.

18 hours ago, lehutin said:

"Ned’s other options (in the case of RLJ being true) which he did not take and sacrificed his honor instead" isn't in the thread FAQ and sounds a lot more interesting.

It is.

18 hours ago, lehutin said:

So what are these other options (assuming RLJ) that Ned did not take?

Let us assume that RLJ is true...for the sake of argument. Ned promised Lyanna to protect the boy's life by hiding his identity. 

But he did not have to sacrifice his honor by claiming it as his own bastard. Maybe Lyanna could've asked to keep him in Winterfell as his own bastard, but she would not ask her brother to sacrifice his great precious honor while OTHER WAYS to bring up Jon safely were available.

• THE MOUNTAIN CLANS OF THE NORTH
• Anywhere in ESSOS
• BEAR ISLAND
• THE NECK, TO GWW, HOWLAND REED
• EVEN SKAAGOS IF NEEDED. For some reason, I have a gut feeling that the tales of the Skaagosi are just what they are, tales....to scare away unwanted attention. Maybe that is why Maester Luwin told Osha to take Rickon there.
• Any-EFFING-where. Remember the countless characters who told that how Ned could not have besmirched his HONOR to sire a bastard.
• See it as him accepting someone else's son (Lyanna in this case of supposing) as his own at the cost of his honor.
• He could have sent Jon away like how fAegon (if he is really Aegon, son of Rhaegar) was sent.

 

 

 

WHY DIDN'T HE????

18 hours ago, lehutin said:

But even if you want to apply the standard of "reasonable doubt," note that it's reasonable doubt. Not just doubt. After nearly 25 years, there isn't any reasonable doubt left about RLJ. Lyanna Stark is Jon Snow's mother, which rapidly dwindles the list of potential fathers down to one: Rhaegar Targaryen.

 

Howland, Mance, etc. turn ASOIAF into a run-of-mill soap opera

There is reasonable doubt. Read my points. Just because one theory is tooooo likely doesn't mean that another (which is more mysterious as in our ignorance about him/it) can also not be.

18 hours ago, lehutin said:

It's also not true and frankly arrogant to imply  to imply that people who disagree with you are like Juror 7, who just want to go with the path of least resistance to get it over with: Jon's parentage has been extensively discussed for nearly 25 years.

I did not mean to be arrogant, just that you interpreted it in such a way.

[lehutin]

4 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Ned promised Lyanna to protect the boy's life by hiding his identity. 

Even taking RLJ as given, we still don't know that this was the "promise." That said, I'll accept this as true for my responses.

5 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

But he did not have to sacrifice his honor by claiming it as his own bastard.

You're right. He did not "have" to do that. But remember, as you said, we are assuming the "promise" was to protect the boy's life. Claiming Jon as his own bastard and raising him in Winterfell was the simplest, safest way to protect the boy's life, and that is what you don't appreciate with your alternatives.

 

The Mountain Clans of the North? Sure, Ned could have done that; and sure, one of them might have said yes. And Jon might well have died while living amongst these "quarrelsome folk, it must be said."

 

Anywhere in Essos? Sure, Ned could have done that. And Jon might well have killed in a Dothraki raid or captured and enslaved. It's not like we didn't see that happen in AGOT, right?

 

I am sympathetic to Bear Island and especially Greywater Watch. For example, I always maintain that if RLD were true, by far the simplest and safest thing to do would be to send RLD to Greywater Watch with Howland Reed in the North. Ned can occasionally check up on his niece under a pretext of seeing an old friend.

 

But that's because Ned can't easily claim RLD as his own bastard daughter, while Ned can easily claim RLJ as his own bastard son. So once again, under RLJ, claiming Jon as his own bastard son is still the simplest way to protect the boy's life compared to asking the Mormonts or Howland for a favor.

 

So basically, your objection to RLJ is that

• Ned could've chosen a much more dangerous or more convoluted option to protect Jon's life, which would keep Ned's external image intact
• and instead Ned chose the simplest, safest way to protect Jon's life, which damaged Ned's external image.

Well, when it came to choosing between his external image and the safety of his beloved dead sister's son, Ned chose the latter. That doesn't invalidate or weaken RLJ in any way.

Quote

“Tell me, Jon, if the day should ever come when your lord father must needs choose between honor on the one hand and those he loves on the other, what would he do?”

 

Jon hesitated. He wanted to say that Lord Eddard would never dishonor himself, not even for love, yet inside a small sly voice whispered, He fathered a bastard, where was the honor in that? And your mother, what of his duty to her, he will not even say her name. “He would do whatever was right,” he said … ringingly, to make up for his hesitation. “No matter what.”

 

“Then Lord Eddard is a man in ten thousand. Most of us are not so strong …”

 

[TheLastWolf]

13 hours ago, lehutin said:

So basically, your objection to RLJ is that

• Ned could've chosen a much more dangerous or more convoluted option to protect Jon's life, which would keep Ned's external image intact
• and instead Ned chose the simplest, safest way to protect Jon's life, which damaged Ned's external image.

Well, when it came to choosing between his external image and the safety of his beloved dead sister's son, Ned chose the latter. That doesn't invalidate or weaken RLJ in any way

@lehutinYou are assuming that the the places mentioned are dangerous. Didn't fAegon survive for so long in Essos? He had a caretaker, why couldn't Ned have assigned someone, an exile preferably. Jorah wasn't exiled then though. 

And the Neck and Mountain clans are the most loyal to the North. You say as if no kid can grow up there in the mountains. And a high priority kid will be more than safe. Anyway, I get the point. 

[TheLastWolf]

On 7/22/2020 at 9:46 PM, TheLastWolf said:

On 7/22/2020 at 9:01 PM, lehutin said:

So basically, your objection to RLJ is that

• Ned could've chosen a much more dangerous or more convoluted option to protect Jon's life, which would keep Ned's external image intact
• and instead Ned chose the simplest, safest way to protect Jon's life, which damaged Ned's external image.

Well, when it came to choosing between his external image and the safety of his beloved dead sister's son, Ned chose the latter. That doesn't invalidate or weaken RLJ in any way

@lehutinYou are assuming that the the places mentioned are dangerous. Didn't fAegon survive for so long in Essos? He had a caretaker, why couldn't Ned have assigned someone, an exile preferably. Jorah wasn't exiled then though. 

And the Neck and Mountain clans are the most loyal to the North. You say as if no kid can grow up there in the mountains. And a high priority kid will be more than safe

Still waiting for your reply @lehutin

Quote

Under this theory, Lyanna possibly gave birth to twins: Jon and Meera.

 

I found this bit particularly interesting:

 

  Quote

The tower stood upon an island, its twin reflected on the still blue waters.

 

This is how the Queenscrown tower was first described. The same tower where Meera hid within, while across the lake Jon (the twin) stood with Ygritte while a storm raged.

 

The reason of course that Ned would wish to keep Jon’s parentage secret in this scenario is to protect Howland from Robert’s possible wrath.  

 

I really liked this theory for a time. The problem I had with it is it didn’t really give a good explanation for why Ned would want to keep this a secret from Cat. Ultimately I really came up with only two good paternal possibilities that Ned would keep a secret from Cat as well. And only one possibility where Ned would especially keep a secret from Cat

Quote

If by any chance that Jon is Howland’s then Meera is 100% his twin

@Frey family reunion, I saw some crazy threads (some may call this crazy) about Meera and offer more points if you have. Her description also I've forgot. And those possibilities....? Those mentioned weren't so convincing.

And P. S do you believe the JOJEN PASTE theory? 

[Dorian Martell's son]

Ned is Jon's dad, who raised him as his own. Lyanna is Jon's mother and Rheagar is Jon's biological father. We were told this several years ago. it's time to deal with it. The news wasn't delivered in the medium we were hoping for, but it was delivered. move on from the tinfoil  

[lehutin]

3 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Still waiting for your reply @lehutin

??? I didn't think a reply was necessary after you wrote

On 7/22/2020 at 12:16 PM, TheLastWolf said:

Anyway, I get the point. 

Do you want me to reiterate the point? If so, no problem. Your objection to R+L=J is that Ned could have chosen a very convoluted, complicated, dangerous way to protect Jon's life, while keeping his external "honorable" reputation intact; and instead, Ned chose the simplest, safest way to protect Jon's life, which cost Ned his reputation.

 

If "Ned had much more complicated and much more dangerous options to protect Jon but didn't take them" is your best, unique objection to R+L=J, well, I hope it's obvious why after nearly 25 years, even if you exclude interviews outside the books, R+L=J remains the dominant "theory" of Jon's parentage.

[Kierria]

On 7/15/2020 at 7:02 AM, TheLastWolf said:

Jon Snow and his personality bears striking similarity to Mance Rayder.  He will be a more suitable choice to lead a tribe of wildlings.

Said @Kierria S in the post mentioned below. 

M + L = J

They were made from the same mold.  Read Qhorin's opinion of Mance in Clash

saidQTR....(see below)in some other post of mine about Jon becoming some King or the other(Others' King?) click to view.

@Quoth the Raven

A lot of people on this site believe the Mance is the father theory.  I remember somebody even proposing it was Mance as the black brother present at Harrenhal.  

[kissdbyfire]

Believing in something because one wants to believe it doesn’t make it a theory. I’ve seen people propose Mance as Jon’s father several times, and not a one has presented an actual, proper theory. It’s wishful thinking from some diehard Dany fans who cannot stand the idea of Jon having some Targ in him, b/c the aforementioned Dany fans usually also hate Jon and the Starks in general. There is nothing in the text that supports Mance as Jon’s father; nothing, nada, zip, zero, zilch. 
I love Mance, and I would love, love, love for Jon to be his son. Alas, this is not my story, it’s Martin’s, and Jon is the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark. 

[Haus Berlin]

„Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man‘s nature.“

Since we got only few quotes from Lyanna, this one comes close to a main theme. Of course she directed these words against Ned‘s best friend Robert.

But if the tale about the Knight of the Laughing Tree has one thing to say about Lyanna and an other friend of Ned, then it’s that yes, indeed love can change a man‘s nature. We see it with Howland Reed who was too shy to even defend himself against three squires when Lyanna first met him and who kills three Kingsguard men the last time he met Lyanna.

The nature of the knight with a laughing white tree on his/hers shield is widely believed to be discovered by Rhaegar. It gives R+L=J it‘s main impulse. The same could be true for Howland, though. Lyanna‘s kidnapping next to Harrenhal not a year after the tourney could serve as a cover-up for a pregnancy. Only it seems Rhaegar never went to the tourney for entertainment purposes as Howland did, but staged the biggest tourney of it’s time to bind the realm together against his father - who happened to be there himself. The closest thing to his plan would then be to cause more disarray between the whole watching realm and the royal family.

A budding romance between already betrothed Lyanna and one of her father’s lesser bannermen allows Rhaegar to present the young woman with a powerful defence against a marriage she doesn’t want and to play himself the part of a villain to cause rise against a system no one wants.

We got the worst case scenario of the ploy: Rhaegar and his kin did not survive the uproar his father originally caused and Lyanna... Let’s hope to learn more about the best case scenario soon.

[corbon]

22 hours ago, Haus Berlin said:

We see it with Howland Reed who was too shy to even defend himself against three squires when Lyanna first met him

He wasn't too shy to defend himself. Ned's the shy one in that story.
In the meadow he was set upon 3-1 with all three bigger than he. They knocked him down and shoved him down again every time he tried to get up.
He later declined to joust not because he was shy but because he didn't have the skills required.

22 hours ago, Haus Berlin said:

and who kills three Kingsguard men the last time he met Lyanna.

There is no evidence he killed any Kingsguard. 
Only that Ned would have died if it was not for him.

[TheLastWolf]

I think that the Jon parentage theories must end, or at least take a break. Because one thing is for sure, Jon is Ned's son and a true Stark with their First men heritage.Not biologically (though that is not to be dismissed outright), but I mean in every other sense. Hope you get the gist. Let Jon's biological parents be Rhaegar-Lyanna or Brandon/Ned-Lyanna (that gross incest ship) or Howland-Lyanna or Mance-Lyanna or Ned-Ashara or Ned-Wylla or anydamnbody like Mata Hari and Sauron ......... but Jon's father in every way was Ned and will be Ned. Contributing 23 chromosomes (the rest is surely Stark blood as is evident in Jon's appearance) is not gonna make Rhaegar the papa. Like how Rey chose to be a Skywalker when she was a Palpatine by blood. There is always another choice.Maybe the revealing of his parentage will have political repurcussions, but not in his character. Jon is not gonna go Edric storm on Rhaegar (if R is the daddy and its revealed).Moreover Jon could have been born with some of his non-stark parent's traits (Lyanna's lover or Ned's) but Nature and chance chose him to be a Stark and that is what he is and what he will be

AND SINCE @kissdbyfire was the most staunch supporter of RLJ (at least IMO) this is kinda for her (ami right in assuming she is a her? ) 

[Lord Lannister]

I'll admit that debunking R+L=J has a morbid fascination for me. Kind of like watching a train wreck, though it definitely takes us to stranger places.

[TheLastWolf]

On 8/15/2020 at 11:44 PM, Lord Lannister said:

I'll admit that debunking R+L=J has a morbid fascination for me.

On 8/15/2020 at 11:44 PM, Lord Lannister said:

Kind of like watching a train wreck, though it definitely takes us to stranger places.

Not entirely for me.... But near enough. 

All I can say this is I'm gonna put a BIG ITOLDYASO thread after TWOW comes out. Never mind about Ados

[TheLastWolf]

GRRM if you are reading this, give me a hint telling which crazy theories of mine are true (hopefully Rhaegar ain't Jon's papa). I promise not to tell anyone. After all, there is a certain pleasure in knowing you are right (The ITOLDYASO thread is coming as soon as TWOW is out), secretly of course.

[SerDuncan]

On 7/11/2020 at 8:43 AM, Ser Leftwich said:

This isn't even crackpot. This is an impossibility.

Right. It's Rhaegar or none. IVF like Jesus.