Open Letters- "Cancel Culture"

[BigFatCoward]

Just now, Kalbear said:

 

Whereas naziism is a deliberate choice. No one is born hating jewish people or black people. No one is born with the idea that peaceful ethnic cleansing is a good thing.

If you were raised in a house by nazis, with nazi siblings, nazi aunts and uncles and grandparents and nazi teachers at school, guess what you'd be? 

[Heartofice]

How did this thread get to this point?

[Kalbear]

2 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

If you were raised in a house by nazis, with nazi siblings, nazi aunts and uncles and grandparents and nazi teachers at school, guess what you'd be? 

A ward of the state once  they catch me? 

I mean, what's the alternative - just let people grow up to be nazis? Just let people happily espouse views that say that I and my kids should be killed? That's obviously stupid. 

I mean, literally - this is what we do with people found in dangerous cults. These exist in the US too - and they are similarly ostracised from most society and when they're found out, their kids are reprogrammed and brought into the real world. And it sucks and it's hard, but there's really no other alternative. 

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, Heartofice said:

How did this thread get to this point?

You brought up nazis and pedophiles, and James Damore and other trash that should be fired and said they shouldn't be.

[Darth Richard II]

Don't they actually take kids away from Nazis in Germany?

[Larry of the Lawn]

6 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

How did this thread get to this point?

Really it was inevitable once free speech came up for discussion.

[Darth Richard II]

10 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Eh. There's good evidence that this isn't something they can particularly control by themselves, and there are a lot of things one can do to deal with them humanely. There's no real evidence that pedophilia is a choice someone makes.

Whereas naziism is a deliberate choice. No one is born hating jewish people or black people. No one is born with the idea that peaceful ethnic cleansing is a good thing.

Hmm interesting. So Nazi's are worse then pedophiles. *makes note*

 

Edit: which is to say I agree

[DanteGabriel]

5 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

How did this thread get to this point?

Wherever we got to, part of the drift started when @JoannaL tried to make a false equivalence between "I won't work with Nazis" and "I won't work with anyone who disagrees with me."

[Ran]

You know, I never read Damore's memo. Here it is, for those curious, though the first section here seems to have been added by him after all the public outrage.

38 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

The notion that this is somehow a bad thing - when a person specifically says whole classes of people are not fit to be his coworker and are by default incompetent - is ridiculous. 

I don't know if this is a characterization of statements he made outside the memo, but in the memo itself that's definitely not what he said. His basic argument in the memo is that Google was approaching diversity in a counter-productive way (through what he considered discriminatory practices) due to cultural biases (in fact his memo is largely much more concerned with the sense that Google was a 'monoculture'), not that there should not be diversity, and indeed a section of his memo was devoted into possible approaches to make Google more welcoming to women. 

[Kalbear]

6 minutes ago, Ran said:

You know, I never read Damore's memo. Here it is, for those curious, though the first section here seems to have been added by him after all the public outrage.

I don't know if this is a characterization of statements he made outside the memo, but in the memo itself that's definitely not what he said. His basic argument in the memo is that Google was approaching diversity in a counter-productive way (through what he considered discriminatory practices) due to cultural biases (in fact his memo is largely much more concerned with the sense that Google was a 'monoculture'), not that there should not be diversity, and indeed a section of his memo was devoted into possible approaches to make Google more welcoming to women. 

He also said in that memo that women were not as suited to high level jobs in google, that they were more neurotic and less able to deal with stress, and that they would have to change a lot of how they were working by doing things like pair programming and making women do UI work in order to get them in. 

I just reread the memo too before you linked it. 4 of the 10 pages are specifically about women and Google's approach to them and how it is wrong. He states the fairly undecided science as facts several times and vastly overstates the effect these have, and ignores that Google doesnt hire populations, they hire individuals. The notion that this wasnt offensive is belied by the actual women at google who took direct offense and threatened to quit. 

[DanteGabriel]

4 hours ago, Heartofice said:

You actually defended him being physically assaulted, straight faced. 

 

Still waiting for you to back up this claim, liar. Hopefully you'll elaborate upon a direct claim about me with fewer than "3000" reminders.

[TrueMetis]

23 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

For clarity when I talk about nazis I'm talking about pathetic american fuck wit, under educated bogtrotter nazis. Not proper nazis. 

The only difference between the two is opportunity, best not to give them the opportunity. A proposition that's failing because "free speech, you've gotta debate their points rationally" a state of affairs that the nazis really want to push, because it advantages them as simply giving in to the idea that this is simply a matter of debate gives their ideas a veneer of legitimacy. Punching Sp*ncer in the face and de-platforming  Yi*nnop*ulos did more to combat nazis than all the rational debate in the world.

[Heartofice]

52 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

He also said in that memo that women were not as suited to high level jobs in google, that they were more neurotic and less able to deal with stress, and that they would have to change a lot of how they were working by doing things like pair programming and making women do UI work in order to get them in. 

I just reread the memo too before you linked it. 4 of the 10 pages are specifically about women and Google's approach to them and how it is wrong. He states the fairly undecided science as facts several times and vastly overstates the effect these have, and ignores that Google doesnt hire populations, they hire individuals. The notion that this wasnt offensive is belied by the actual women at google who took direct offense and threatened to quit. 

He was arguing that there might  be reasons there were less women in the field other than claiming it was discrimination, and offered up more productive ways of increasing those numbers. Yet he is unfairly portrayed as some sexist pig.

He said that women might be under represented in certain tech fields due to preferences which might make them choose other fields. I mean why are there so many female veterinarians?

Im pretty sure he also used neuroticism in its technical form as this was how studies used it. He wasn’t  describing women as neurotic in the way you are suggesting. This is all part of the misunderstanding about who he is and what he thinks which you seem to be very much still under. His inability to properly communicate his ideas is one of his problems.
 

On your earlier point, sure it wasn’t a mob on twitter that got him fired, but an internal chain of emails which functioned in a very similar fashion. Very much the same principals were at play when he got fired.

You are also incorrect in saying he lost his court case against google. He dropped the whole thing, maybe unsurprising, how many people are going to be able to sue google. Maybe they paid him off. We won’t know.

[Liffguard]

57 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

For clarity when I talk about nazis I'm talking about pathetic american fuck wit, under educated bogtrotter nazis. Not proper nazis. 

I think this a somewhat dangerous position. There's nothing qualitatively different between the people of Germany in the 30s and the people of today. They weren't special. The Nazi party got started with people who probably would have been considered "under-educated bogtrotters" at the time. I know posterity has turned them into super-villians, but the "proper" Nazis were mostly just random losers then too.

And look how that turned out.

Pathetic under-educated bogtrotters can do a lot of damage if you let them.

[BigFatCoward]

Just now, Kalbear said:

No? They can be considered orphans and wards of the state, and should likely be taken away from those parents as the parents are obviously endangering the children. That sucks for them, but I guess those parents should have chosen not to be nazis. 

Taking kids off people with different ideas. Nothing to fear there. 

[DanteGabriel]

2 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

Taking kids off people with different ideas. Nothing to fear there. 

Is there something that predisposes you to repeatedly re-characterize and whitewash Nazis as "people with different ideas"? Their ideas literally involve the state-led genocide of huge swaths of the population. I don't think anyone here is saying we should de-platform or "cancel" people who believe in trickle-down economics or pineapple on pizza.

[BigFatCoward]

5 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

Is there something that predisposes you to repeatedly re-characterize and whitewash Nazis as "people with different ideas"? Their ideas literally involve the state-led genocide of huge swaths of the population. I don't think anyone here is saying we should de-platform or "cancel" people who believe in trickle-down economics or pineapple on pizza.

Again. American nazis are not German nazis. To suggest they are is hyperbolic. They are fucking idiots that I wouldn't trust to put a hat on the right way round. Most of them cant even work out how to use a toothbrush, how the fuck would they manage genocide? 

[DanteGabriel]

1 minute ago, BigFatCoward said:

Again. American nazis are not German nazis. To suggest they are is hyperbolic. They are fucking idiots that I wouldn't trust to put a hat on the right way round. 

I don't think you have an accurate view of the Nazi situation in America. Especially now that they have a willing ally in Trump. I'm actually a lot less scared of German Nazis because the machinery of the German state works against them. Here in the US they are well seeded in law enforcement, the military, and Trump's government.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/nation/fbi-white-supremacists-in-law-enforcement

[DaveSumm]

3 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

Is there something that predisposes you to repeatedly re-characterize and whitewash Nazis as "people with different ideas"? Their ideas literally involve the state-led genocide of huge swaths of the population. I don't think anyone here is saying we should de-platform or "cancel" people who believe in trickle-down economics or pineapple on pizza.

But what actually is it about Nazis that qualifies them as too far? Again, if they were calling for actual genocides that’d be covered by incitement to violence, which is illegal, and you can fire them all you like.

I’m not saying I wouldn’t be deeply uncomfortable working with a Nazi, I’m playing devils advocate really, but you keep thinking this is easy; “just everything illegal, Nazis, and pedophiles, job done”. But it’s you who’s decided Nazis are too far. Shouldn’t we have a firmer definition of who qualifies? What about homophobics, do they get to have jobs? They could easily believe about gay people what Nazis believe about Jewish people.

[BigFatCoward]

3 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

I don't think you have an accurate view of the Nazi situation in America. Especially now that they have a willing ally in Trump. I'm actually a lot less scared of German Nazis because the machinery of the German state works against them. Here in the US they are well seeded in law enforcement, the military, and Trump's government.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/nation/fbi-white-supremacists-in-law-enforcement

You are more scared of the people that have achieved nothing than the people that killed millions of jewish people (along with many others) and nearly took over the world? Have you banged your head, repeatedly, with an anvil?