Mirror and Foil characters

[King Adrian Storm]

Grrm is good at making charactaers who are parallel to each other in a lot of ways. Sometimes it's a darker version of a character, and sometimes it's a character who has the same beliefs. To add on to this post I want to talk about mirror characters who are likely to have a confrontation in the next books. I find it interesting when you have similar characters oppose each other.

1. Ramsay and Jon Snow- Both are bastards to Northern Lords. Ramsay is basically what Jon could have been if he didn't have Ned. He's a perfect foil to Jon. There should definitely be a battle between the 2 at some point in the story. I think Ramsay will come to the wall, and Jon will have to defend castle black against him. And if Jon is resurrected and a darker character than he was before it will be interesting to see their interaction.

2. Dany and Stannis- This is a confrontation I'm dying to see. I am going to make another post involving Stannis, so I won't dive too deep into how I think their interaction will go down. But the'r parallels are obvious. Both are very entitled, and believe themselves to be the rightful heir. They could never be allies because neither would bow to the Other. Stannis believes in the red god, and Dany likley will too after meeting the red priest. Both believe in fighting for the greater good, but will they agree to work together, or will they fight over who's in charge.

These are the main two I want to talk about, because I find them fascinating. I know Jon and Dany, and Dany and Aegon are mirror/foils as well, but those conversations have been done to death.

If there are any other couples like this post them.

[Curled Finger]

16 minutes ago, King Adrian Storm said:

1. Ramsay and Jon Snow- Both are bastards to Northern Lords. Ramsay is basically what Jon could have been if he didn't have Ned. He's a perfect foil to Jon. There should definitely be a battle between the 2 at some point in the story. I think Ramsay will come to the wall, and Jon will have to defend castle black against him. And if Jon is resurrected and a darker character than he was before it will be interesting to see their interaction.

2. Dany and Stannis- This is a confrontation I'm dying to see. I am going to make another post involving Stannis, so I won't dive too deep into how I think their interaction will go down. But the'r parallels are obvious. Both are very entitled, and believe themselves to be the rightful heir. They could never be allies because neither would bow to the Other. Stannis believes in the red god, and Dany likley will too after meeting the red priest. Both believe in fighting for the greater good, but will they agree to work together, or will they fight over who's in charge.

These are the main two I want to talk about, because I find them fascinating. I know Jon and Dany, and Dany and Aegon are mirror/foils as well, but those conversations have been done to death.

If there are any other couples like this post them.

Point 1:  Are you implying that Jon will become darker along the lines of Ramsay's cruelty?  

Point 2:  I would love to see Dany meet Stannis.  That couldn't be anything but fun to read. 

I have a little topic going about lose ends at Winterfell.   Jeyne Poole has become the star of that topic.   Would you consider her to be something of a mirror for Sansa and Arya?   The premise being Jeyne's marriage to Ramsay being a close facsimile to the marriage Sansa would have had with Joffrey and Arya being offered the opportunity to become a courtesan.  

As just nasty political players I do like Margaery as a foil for Cersei eventually.  Cersei would hate that which would make me enjoy it all the more. 

[Miss_Saffron]

7 minutes ago, King Adrian Storm said:

Ramsay and Jon Snow- Both are bastards to Northern Lords. Ramsay is basically what Jon could have been if he didn't have Ned.

For me the most interesting foil aspect of those two is that Ramsay stops at nothing to be recognized as Roose's legitimate heir (to the point of killing off his legitimate sons), while Jon struggles with the desire to be 'true' Stark, but it would be massively OCC for him to stoop to similar measures. I think setting those two up as foils is meant to foreshadow some of the future drama with Robb's testament (I think by the time the testament will be made public, so would be the fact that Rickon/Bran are in fact alive and this would cause a split in the North with some of the lords sticking to the rules of inheritance and some prefering a grown up over children to lead the North against the Others). Also, in more general terms, it may forshadow that Jon shouldn't build his self-identity around his bloodline and legitimacy (right now in relation to Starks and in the future to Targs, when R+L=J will be revealed). 

Another foil paring I'm seeing is Jon and Jaime as the two characters struggling with the oaths they've sworn. I don't know if they would ever had a chance to interact in this context in books, but it's a dynamic I'd love to explore. Especially if book!Jon will hit the plot points introduced in the last episode of the tv show. 

[Miss_Saffron]

6 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

As just nasty political players I do like Margaery as a foil for Cersei eventually.  Cersei would hate that which would make me enjoy it all the more. 

IMHO, Margaery is already a foil to Cersei, employing soft power and 'steering events from the back seat' when Cersei is forever resentful she can't have power in her own right due to the unfortunate accident of her gender. But I would love to see their dynamic explored with older and more independent Margeary clearly overtaking Cersei's in terms of the influence she wields. For that matter, I'd love to see how Arianne would've play against those two. 

[Curled Finger]

2 minutes ago, Miss_Saffron said:

IMHO, Margaery is already a foil to Cersei, employing soft power and 'steering events from the back seat' when Cersei is forever resentful she can't have power in her own right due to the unfortunate accident of her gender. But I would love to see their dynamic explored with older and more independent Margeary clearly overtaking Cersei's in terms of the influence she wields. For that matter, I'd love to see how Arianne would've play against those two. 

I don't have a lot of faith in Arianne. She's rash and impulsive and sheltered.  She is a woman of simple solutions she finds brilliant.  Not sure she could handle Cersei level political pressure or Marg's A game sneakiness.   It's very concerning to me as a bit of a fan of the Dornish culture to have Arianne calling the determining shots on joining a war.   I just hope Doran has placed his trust well.  

[Miss_Saffron]

1 minute ago, Curled Finger said:

I don't have a lot of faith in Arianne. She's rash and impulsive and sheltered.  She is a woman of simple solutions she finds brilliant.  Not sure she could handle Cersei level political pressure or Marg's A game sneakiness. 

I quite agree. But I still think that would be fun thing to see. 

And, since I'm apparently in a mood for a political catfight, I'd like to throw in Sansa and Myrcella into the mix, if/when they develop into characters with more of a personal agency. I think each of those five would have unique style of wielding political power and very different political goals. All of them dancing circles around each other would be immensly entertaining for me. Sadly, this almost certainly won't happen in the books. 

[James Fenimore Cooper XXII]

1 hour ago, King Adrian Storm said:

Grrm is good at making charactaers who are parallel to each other in a lot of ways. Sometimes it's a darker version of a character, and sometimes it's a character who has the same beliefs. To add on to this post I want to talk about mirror characters who are likely to have a confrontation in the next books. I find it interesting when you have similar characters oppose each other.

1. Ramsay and Jon Snow- Both are bastards to Northern Lords. Ramsay is basically what Jon could have been if he didn't have Ned. He's a perfect foil to Jon. There should definitely be a battle between the 2 at some point in the story. I think Ramsay will come to the wall, and Jon will have to defend castle black against him. And if Jon is resurrected and a darker character than he was before it will be interesting to see their interaction.

2. Dany and Stannis- This is a confrontation I'm dying to see. I am going to make another post involving Stannis, so I won't dive too deep into how I think their interaction will go down. But the'r parallels are obvious. Both are very entitled, and believe themselves to be the rightful heir. They could never be allies because neither would bow to the Other. Stannis believes in the red god, and Dany likley will too after meeting the red priest. Both believe in fighting for the greater good, but will they agree to work together, or will they fight over who's in charge.

These are the main two I want to talk about, because I find them fascinating. I know Jon and Dany, and Dany and Aegon are mirror/foils as well, but those conversations have been done to death.

If there are any other couples like this post them.

3.  Aegon and Jon are also foils of one another.  Perhaps the best foil of all.  Jon died and Aegon takes his place in the plot. 

4.  Myranda and Sansa.  The Royce girl has the mental edge but who knows what will happen.

 

[King Adrian Storm]

32 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Point 1:  Are you implying that Jon will become darker along the lines of Ramsay's cruelty?  

 

No, I don't think Jon will be come a rapist serial killer who skins people for fun haha. I just mean Ramsay will probably tempt Jon, calling him a monster like himself. And with Jon being resurrected, more wolfish, and less of himself it could hit at Jon's internal struggle and cause for good drama with his character. It's like Jon is a monster in a physical sense, knife wounds all over his body, loss of memory, his face will probably be pale, with hollow eyes, and his eyes will most likely be fiery like Beric's. Ramsay on the other hand will be a monster in a mental level. With how fucked up he is. That's what I was trying to get at.

[Curled Finger]

Arya and Theon both contain strong identity themes that call to each other if not actually mirror.  Of course if there is mirroring between them perhaps Arya Stark will remember her name soon.  

[King Adrian Storm]

8 minutes ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

3.  Aegon and Jon are also foils of one another.  Perhaps the best foil of all.  Jon died and Aegon takes his place in the plot. 

 

Yes that's a very good one as well. A lot of people think of him as a foil to Dany, but he's even more of a foil to Jon. This makes Jon even more fascinating to me. Ramsay-Jon-Aegon. Ramsay being the evil side of him, and Aegon being the good leader side of him that he could have been if things were different.

[Curled Finger]

1 minute ago, King Adrian Storm said:

No, I don't think Jon will be come a rapist serial killer who skins people for fun haha. I just mean Ramsay will probably tempt Jon, calling him a monster like himself. And with Jon being resurrected, more wolfish, and less of himself it could hit at Jon's internal struggle and cause for good drama with his character. It's like Jon is a monster in a physical sense, knife wounds all over his body, loss of memory, his face will probably be pale, with hollow eyes, and his eyes will most likely be fiery like Beric's. Ramsay on the other hand will be a monster in a mental level. With how fucked up he is. That's what I was trying to get at.

Oh that's just great in its awfulness.  I can handle changes, but a mean Jon Snow doesn't compute.  Now an ugly Jon Snow is a worth considering.  So long as his lips don't come to resemble worms.  

[Springwatch]

3 hours ago, King Adrian Storm said:

Grrm is good at making charactaers who are parallel to each other in a lot of ways. Sometimes it's a darker version of a character, and sometimes it's a character who has the same beliefs. To add on to this post I want to talk about mirror characters who are likely to have a confrontation in the next books. I find it interesting when you have similar characters oppose each other.

Terrific topic! I believe in this stuff like it's religion science.

3 hours ago, King Adrian Storm said:

If there are any other couples like this post them.

I offer Jaime & Cersei versus Loras & Margaery, but I've forgotten most of the details so I'll have to put them in later.

3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Point 1:  Are you implying that Jon will become darker along the lines of Ramsay's cruelty?  

The books are heading dark for many characters, isn't that what we're told? But I'd prefer it if Jon slays Ramsay to put an end to that fork in the future.

Consider Dany and Doreah - both beautiful young blondes, both sold the to the Dothraki. Both make their way using their sexual skills. Interestingly, Dany gifts Doreah the fertility charm she wanted just about the time that she herself feels interested in men again (iirc). Dany feels like a queen among the Dothraki, but Doreah highlights the weakness of her position - Doreah is given to Drogo's bloodriders and abused by them, as Dany might have been according to custom.

Doreah I believe represents the path of weakness - she dies in the Red Waste at the time Dany finds her inner strength. Let the girl die and the woman be born.

Quote

I have a little topic going about lose ends at Winterfell.   Jeyne Poole has become the star of that topic.   Would you consider her to be something of a mirror for Sansa and Arya?   

I would, but I prefer to think Ramsay marries Jon's 'sisters' so Jon doesn't have to.

[Curled Finger]

30 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Terrific topic! I believe in this stuff like it's religion science.

I offer Jaime & Cersei versus Loras & Margaery, but I've forgotten most of the details so I'll have to put them in later.

The books are heading dark for many characters, isn't that what we're told? But I'd prefer it if Jon slays Ramsay to put an end to that fork in the future.

Consider Dany and Doreah - both beautiful young blondes, both sold the to the Dothraki. Both make their way using their sexual skills. Interestingly, Dany gifts Doreah the fertility charm she wanted just about the time that she herself feels interested in men again (iirc). Dany feels like a queen among the Dothraki, but Doreah highlights the weakness of her position - Doreah is given to Drogo's bloodriders and abused by them, as Dany might have been according to custom.

Doreah I believe represents the path of weakness - she dies in the Red Waste at the time Dany finds her inner strength. Let the girl die and the woman be born.

I would, but I prefer to think Ramsay marries Jon's 'sisters' so Jon doesn't have to.

You are in rare form today.   Love your sibling contribution.  I'm good with Jon just becoming ugly in appearance.  At first blush I read the OP to mean Jon would get all nasty like Ramsay, which is why I had to ask.  Reading your Dany/Doreah contrast & comparison runs right along the same lines as the essence of my own thinking Jeyne Poole may have been the one to live out both terrible possibilities Sansa and Arya were given.  Very nice.  

[Springwatch]

23 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

You are in rare form today.   Love your sibling contribution.  I'm good with Jon just becoming ugly in appearance.  At first blush I read the OP to mean Jon would get all nasty like Ramsay, which is why I had to ask.  Reading your Dany/Doreah contrast & comparison runs right along the same lines as the essence of my own thinking Jeyne Poole may have been the one to live out both terrible possibilities Sansa and Arya were given.  Very nice.  

Thanks! I'm totally with you on Jeyne Poole. I want to compare her wedding to Alys Karstark's - both winter's lady, sort of - but very different. Not sure where to go with that one.

[Springwatch]

Cersei & Jaime v's Margaery & Loras

Done this already, quoting myself:

Quote

Not twins, but Loras and Margaery shadow Jaime and Cersei pretty closely, and I wonder why. A pointer towards more marriages for Cersei, maybe?

Cersei and Margaery:

• Married Robert/a Robert clone
• Husband murdered by stealth; a violent death.
• Both tried to control Tommen
• Both imprisoned by the Faith

Jaime and Loras:

• Considered the finest knights in the kingdom.
• Brilliant jousters at a young age.
• Became Kingsguard for the sake of their sisters.
• Became Kingsguard at a very young age.

Quote

He's me, Jaime realized suddenly. I am speaking to myself, as I was, all cocksure arrogance and empty chivalry. This is what it does to you, to be too good too young.

ASOS - JAIME VIII

Both pairs:

• Very beautiful.
• Powerful family with ambitions to marry royally.
• Incest/slander of incest (by Taena)

The major difference (apart from age) is hair and eye colour: soft brown instead of bright gold and emerald green.

ETA

And of course, it's been remarked how alike Loras and Margaery look - even more alike than Jaime and Cersei in the later books.

Quote

They could be twins, Cersei thought as she watched them.... they were more alike than she and Jaime.

AFFC - CERSEI III

 

I love this parallel, but it's so mysterious. They can't be foreshadowing each other, because they occupy the same space, the same time. I don't know what it achieves.

ETA

Cersei sort of mirrors Jaime's 'He is me' with 'I am the queen!' in response to Margaery being called the queen. A recognition of an overlapping identity.

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Thanks! I'm totally with you on Jeyne Poole. I want to compare her wedding to Alys Karstark's - both winter's lady, sort of - but very different. Not sure where to go with that one.

Have some fun with it if you have nothing pressing.  Do all the weddings then do all the winter's ladies.  It doesn't suck being grounded at home all the time.   My ASOIAF research has been as interesting as the story itself.  GRRM put an awful great lot of very cool stuff in this tale.  I say enjoy it if you can. 

[Lady Topspin]

Daenerys will stop Stannis from getting what he wants.  The only intersection between their characters will happen when Daenerys slays his lie; she is Azor Ahai.  In that specific part of the story, yes, she will foil Stannis and keep him from getting what he wants.  She will slay their lies and prevent the liars (Stannis, Young Griff, and Jon Snow) from getting what they want.   

[Angel Eyes]

Sandor Clegane and Littlefinger are surprisingly similar characters despite being on different sides of the physical spectrum. One could say that Sandor is Littlefinger writ large; Littlefinger is a two-face politician while Sandor is literally two-faced. Both were idealistic kids growing up and received a harsh lesson in how the world worked, receiving permanent injury (The Hound had half his face melted while Littlefinger was nearly gutted open). Both grew up to be very cynical individuals that have strange feelings for Sansa Stark, who for them represents what they were before their life-changing event.

[Darth Sidious]

Walder Frey and Arya Stark are not mirrors but are for sure antagonists.  One of his sons will end Arya's campaign of revenge.  

[Angel Eyes]

Apart from being blonde and the most important women in Jaime Lannister's lives, Cersei and Brienne are polar opposites. Brienne is ugly but kindhearted while Cersei is beautiful but psychopathic, Brienne is honorable while Cersei is treacherous and Brienne is a warrior while Cersei is a schemer.