Mirror and Foil characters

[Angel Eyes]

Tywin Lannister and Willas Tyrell. Both are descended from houses in The Reach (remember that Tywin’s grandmother was Rohanne Webber), the eldest son and heir of a fat, incompetent lord (Tytos Lannister, Mace Tyrell) and are more politically astute than their fathers. Both are physically infirm; Tywin is 57 (a pretty old age in medieval times) while Willas is crippled. Among their siblings are a second son who doesn’t like the limelight (see my earlier post comparing Kevan and Garlan), a hot-tempered third son who is known for his prowess in arms that gets compared to Jaime Lannister (Tygett and Loras) and a sister who is just as astute as her brothers (Genna and Margaery). Their grandmothers also have acidic senses of humor.

[Wall Flower]

On 8/11/2020 at 10:21 AM, Rose of Red Lake said:

Brienne and Sansa - both offer moral clarity on what a knight should be. Both would agree "It's always summer in the songs. In the songs all knights are gallant, all maids are beautiful, and the sun is always shining." Both romanticize kings/princes (...sorry but Renly was saving Brienne's cloak for Barristan). Both memorize all the singer's songs by heart and have a sweet innocence about them. Brienne gets her dream ripped away from her just like Sansa and both starts to ruminate in darker thoughts. "There are walls around this one higher than Winterfell's" / "he met a wall of sullen courtesy as icy and unyielding as the Wall he had walked once in the north" Cat's thoughts about Brienne being ostracized and keeping her distance apply to Sansa in King's Landing after she's marked as a traitor and married to Tyrion. 

I agree that Sansa and Brienne are both romantics and idealists and, despite adversity, neither has lost their ideals so far. They are also foils in the sense that Sansa fits easily into the rigid requirements of Westerosi femininity that Brienne is excluded from. In that aspect, Brienne and Arya are closer foils.

[Hodor the Articulate]

2 hours ago, Wall Flower said:

I agree that Sansa and Brienne are both romantics and idealists and, despite adversity, neither has lost their ideals so far. They are also foils in the sense that Sansa fits easily into the rigid requirements of Westerosi femininity that Brienne is excluded from. In that aspect, Brienne and Arya are closer foils.

Wouldn't Arya and Brienne be parallels, not foils, when it comes to gender roles?

Brienne is idealistic but I disagree that she's a romantic... at least, not to the same degree as Sansa. She comes off as quite naive in Cat and Jaime's chapters, but in her own chapters, we see that she is aware of how nasty people are and how she's seen by them. This is markedly different to Sansa, who continued to romanticise Joffrey even after he showed his true colours.

The reason for this difference is obvious. Sansa fitted the Westerosi ideal for how a highborn girl should look and act. She was never challenged with the idea that the songs might be false, whereas Brienne has lived her whole life being treated to douchey knights and lords. The full quote is, "winter will never come for the likes of us. Should we die in battle, they will surely sing of us, and it's always summer in the songs. In the songs all knights are gallant, all maids are beautiful, and the sun is always shining" , which underlines this. Where Sansa would have believed "all knights are gallant, all maids are beautiful", Brienne recognised that it's only in song that this is true; she's saying, whoever the summer knights and maids (she is both) were or looked liked before battle, they will be remembered as brave and beautiful in songs after they die.

To be sure, she is romanticising war there, but so does every unblooded soldier and lord in this world. It does not mean she wholeheartedly embraced every song as Sansa did.

[Wall Flower]

2 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Wouldn't Arya and Brienne be parallels, not foils, when it comes to gender roles?

Brienne is idealistic but I disagree that she's a romantic... at least, not to the same degree as Sansa. She comes off as quite naive in Cat and Jaime's chapters, but in her own chapters, we see that she is aware of how nasty people are and how she's seen by them. This is markedly different to Sansa, who continued to romanticise Joffrey even after he showed his true colours.

The reason for this difference is obvious. Sansa fitted the Westerosi ideal for how a highborn girl should look and act. She was never challenged with the idea that the songs might be false, whereas Brienne has lived her whole life being treated to douchey knights and lords. The full quote is, "winter will never come for the likes of us. Should we die in battle, they will surely sing of us, and it's always summer in the songs. In the songs all knights are gallant, all maids are beautiful, and the sun is always shining" , which underlines this. Where Sansa would have believed "all knights are gallant, all maids are beautiful", Brienne recognised that it's only in song that this is true; she's saying, whoever the summer knights and maids (she is both) were or looked liked before battle, they will be remembered as brave and beautiful in songs after they die.

To be sure, she is romanticising war there, but so does every unblooded soldier and lord in this world. It does not mean she wholeheartedly embraced every song as Sansa did.

Yeah, I meant to say mirrors for Arya and Brienne and their issues with compulsory femininity!

[Rose of Red Lake]

On 8/16/2020 at 8:30 PM, Hodor the Articulate said:

Wouldn't Arya and Brienne be parallels, not foils, when it comes to gender roles?

Brienne is idealistic but I disagree that she's a romantic... at least, not to the same degree as Sansa. She comes off as quite naive in Cat and Jaime's chapters, but in her own chapters, we see that she is aware of how nasty people are and how she's seen by them. This is markedly different to Sansa, who continued to romanticise Joffrey even after he showed his true colours.

The reason for this difference is obvious. Sansa fitted the Westerosi ideal for how a highborn girl should look and act. She was never challenged with the idea that the songs might be false, whereas Brienne has lived her whole life being treated to douchey knights and lords. The full quote is, "winter will never come for the likes of us. Should we die in battle, they will surely sing of us, and it's always summer in the songs. In the songs all knights are gallant, all maids are beautiful, and the sun is always shining" , which underlines this. Where Sansa would have believed "all knights are gallant, all maids are beautiful", Brienne recognised that it's only in song that this is true; she's saying, whoever the summer knights and maids (she is both) were or looked liked before battle, they will be remembered as brave and beautiful in songs after they die.

To be sure, she is romanticising war there, but so does every unblooded soldier and lord in this world. It does not mean she wholeheartedly embraced every song as Sansa did.

But why is Brienne even replying at all -

“Because it will not last,” Catelyn answered, sadly. “Because they are the knights of summer, and winter is coming.”

She's rebuffing the idea that "things will never get bad." A dreamy statement as much as Sansa's ideals in Book 1. It's even more dreamy considering that Brienne is a full 19 years old - and has been through the ringer with Rennet Connington. She most likely replaced her romantic ideals in courtship with romantic ideals in war. It's just a transfer of one dream to another.

[Rose of Red Lake]

Cat and Brienne are mirrors because Cat feels like she's unfeminine, "a cold and unnatural mother." Cat is non-normative because she's very active and assertive, and Robb gets belittled because she advises him. She fights her "battles" with all the idiot men around her.

Cat views Brienne's unwillingness to wear a dress an oddity, which is gender clocking, but she doesn't cast her out or punish her for it. 

She also observes that Brienne's road is easier in some ways. "For men the answer was always the same, and never farther away than the nearest sword." 

I think this passage shows how they fit together quite well: 

"And who would keep you safe, my lady?"
Her smile was wan and tired. "Why, the men of my House. Or so my lady mother taught me. My lord father, my brother, my uncle, my husband, they will keep me safe . . . but while they are away from me, I suppose you must fill their place, Brienne."
Brienne bowed her head. "I shall try, my lady."

[Sigella]

On 7/12/2020 at 7:54 PM, Curled Finger said:

I don't have a lot of faith in Arianne. She's rash and impulsive and sheltered.  She is a woman of simple solutions she finds brilliant.  Not sure she could handle Cersei level political pressure or Marg's A game sneakiness.   It's very concerning to me as a bit of a fan of the Dornish culture to have Arianne calling the determining shots on joining a war.   I just hope Doran has placed his trust well.  

100% agree. Arianne has a big book of dragon facts in the tower but longs for a copy of "The Loves of Queen Nymeria"... 

[Jon Fossoway]

Black Walder and Brynden Tully. Both unwed, both apt soldiers, but whereas one is loyal to a monarch, the other isn't. Tully is well respected in his family by (Edmure and Catelyn that we know of); Walder is feared by most of his. 

[Hodor the Articulate]

4 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

But why is Brienne even replying at all -

“Because it will not last,” Catelyn answered, sadly. “Because they are the knights of summer, and winter is coming.”

She's rebuffing the idea that "things will never get bad." A dreamy statement as much as Sansa's ideals in Book 1. It's even more dreamy considering that Brienne is a full 19 years old - and has been through the ringer with Rennet Connington. She most likely replaced her romantic ideals in courtship with romantic ideals in war. It's just a transfer of one dream to another.

No she isn't. She's saying it doesn't matter because they'll be immortalised in song.

There was no "transference" of dreams. Brienne didn't take up knighthood because romance was closed to her. She wanted to fight AND be loved.

[Angel Eyes]

Sansa and Cersei. Both are the eldest daughters of grim, competent lords and wardens who served as Hand of the King, had a tumultuous relationship with a younger sibling (Arya for Sansa, Tyrion for Cersei), had high dreams of becoming a princess and queen, and were betrothed to a Baratheon who mistreated them, with their personalities hardening considerably. Sansa isn't as far gone as Cersei... yet.

[James Fenimore Cooper XXII]

Petyr Baelish and Tyrion Lannister will become adversaries in the future.  Tyrion is to Petyr as Quasimodo is to Frollo.  Sansa will be their connection.  She is what will lure Tyrion to the Vale.  Tyrion will attempt to rescue her.  The people of the Vale will march to the gates to bring Sansa to justice for her part in the death of Lysa.  We know why Lysa was killed but it looks bad for Sansa.  The Vale is the cathedral and will be where Sansa dies.  She will be thrown from the Moon door. 

[Nevets]

On 8/19/2020 at 1:49 PM, Angel Eyes said:

Sansa and Cersei. Both are the eldest daughters of grim, competent lords and wardens who served as Hand of the King, had a tumultuous relationship with a younger sibling (Arya for Sansa, Tyrion for Cersei), had high dreams of becoming a princess and queen, and were betrothed to a Baratheon who mistreated them, with their personalities hardening considerably. Sansa isn't as far gone as Cersei... yet.

Or ever.  Given how she was treated by Cersei and Joffrey, if she hasn't become Cersei 2.0 by now, and she hasn't, she isn't going to.

 

[Angel Eyes]

Tyrion Lannister and Aegon IV. Both were the sons of a Hand of the King, who was a stern and competent man who held the realm together for decades, whom they had troubled relationships with (though Tyrion admires Viserys' administrative record). Both were noted hedonists, particularly with women; Aegon boasted of having bedded nearly 900 women, no word on Tyrion. Both had similar siblings: a brother who was a Kingsguard and a sister who was the Queen, though Tyrion was much closer to Jaime (until the truth about Tysha was revealed) than Aegon ever was to Aemon. Neither got along well with their sisters. Both their fathers died under suspicious circumstances, but while Tyrion is definitely guilty, it's speculation on Aegon's part (depends on what is revealed).

[GoldenGail3]

On 7/16/2020 at 7:20 AM, Angel Eyes said:

Don’t forget the way Robert views them contrasts; Stannis is Robert’s brother who he never got along with while Ned is the brother Robert wishes he had.

Ned and Stannis are so similar I can’t even believe Robert. I think he failed to pay attention to Stannis to see the similarities between him and his bff Ned.

[Orm]

9 hours ago, GoldenGail3 said:

Ned and Stannis are so similar I can’t even believe Robert. I think he failed to pay attention to Stannis to see the similarities between him and his bff Ned.

Well Ned and Stan both have the same personality type...

I also find king Bobby B an absolute idiot in distrusting Stannis the Mannis....

[TheLastWolf]

Cersei and Margaery. 

Obvious why

[Angel Eyes]

20 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Cersei and Margaery. 

Obvious why

Could you please explain more?

[Bernie Mac]

On 8/18/2020 at 1:20 PM, Jon Fossoway said:

Black Walder and Brynden Tully. Both unwed, both apt soldiers, but whereas one is loyal to a monarch, the other isn't. Tully is well respected in his family by (Edmure and Catelyn that we know of); Walder is feared by most of his. 

Brynden is not loyal to a monarch, he is loyal to his niece and grand nephew. Joffrey is his monarch, he rebelled and quickly chose another King.

Also can people stop with the 'protagonist character respected' and 'antagonist character feared' when people come to their family and vassals. Or at least come up with some citations as it is a lazy trope that people just automatically assume to be true.

We have on POV from a Frey and when he thinks of his father it is with respect. What Merret fears is not his father, but what will happen after his father.

 

[Bernie Mac]

On 8/16/2020 at 5:27 PM, Angel Eyes said:

Tywin Lannister and Willas Tyrell. Both are descended from houses in The Reach (remember that Tywin’s grandmother was Rohanne Webber), the eldest son and heir of a fat, incompetent lord (Tytos Lannister, Mace Tyrell) and are more politically astute than their fathers. Both are physically infirm; Tywin is 57 (a pretty old age in medieval times) while Willas is crippled. Among their siblings are a second son who doesn’t like the limelight (see my earlier post comparing Kevan and Garlan), a hot-tempered third son who is known for his prowess in arms that gets compared to Jaime Lannister (Tygett and Loras) and a sister who is just as astute as her brothers (Genna and Margaery). Their grandmothers also have acidic senses of humor.

A lot to disagree with here, but I'll try to keep it to bullet points rather than stripping it all apart

 

• Mace, in the books, is not incompetent. Someone is not either incompetent or exceptional, there is a whole spectrum in between and Mace, Lord for two decades, is on the positive side of the spectrum given he was able to secure the loyalty of the majority of his lords (Tyrells in previous civil wars have not) and is now sitting as Hand of the King, daughter of the Queen and the most powerful man in the realm. It may be brief, but Mace is the most poweful Tyrell to ever have lived
• We have never met Willas, we know next to nothing about him. It is a bit soon to be jumping the gun and proclaiming him more astute than his father
• Tywin's not infirm. He's actually the opposite despite his age; Tywin Lannister, Lord of Casterly Rock and Warden of the West, was in his middle fifties, yet hard as a man of twenty. Even seated, he was tall, with long legs, broad shoulders, a flat stomach. His thin arms were corded with muscle. GRMM's description is pretty much the oppostite of what you describe.

[TheLastWolf]

2 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Could you please explain more?

Not with this damn phone. I'll get my hands on a laptop or PC again soon and explain. Gonna start a new thread related to that too. Adios amigo