Mirror and Foil characters

[GoldenGail3]

22 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

Not with this damn phone. I'll get my hands on a laptop or PC again soon and explain. Gonna start a new thread related to that too. Adios amigo 

I understand you in this... ive been without one for ages now.

[Jon Fossoway]

3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Brynden is not loyal to a monarch, he is loyal to his niece and grand nephew. Joffrey is his monarch, he rebelled and quickly chose another King.

Also can people stop with the 'protagonist character respected' and 'antagonist character feared' when people come to their family and vassals. Or at least come up with some citations as it is a lazy trope that people just automatically assume to be true.

We have on POV from a Frey and when he thinks of his father it is with respect. What Merret fears is not his father, but what will happen after his father.

 

The text says Black Walder is feared by people around in his own family and that he has quite a reputation. I am inclined of using GRRM wording, since I find it important. 

Also, I haven't mentioned antagonists or protagonists in my post. Please don't come back to me with arguments you make up. For me, Walder and Tully mirror each other for some feats in each I already mentioned.

 

[Angel Eyes]

Robert Baratheon and Edmure Tully. While both are hot-blooded guys who love fighting and fucking, their skillsets are opposites; Robert is a great general who wastes away in peacetime, Edmure is a poor strategist who is better in peacetime because he truly cares for his smallfolk. The respect they command also contrasts; Robert can command respect while Edmure is talked down to by his sister, uncle, and nephew, much to his and their detriment.

[GoldenGail3]

On 8/24/2020 at 9:21 PM, Orm said:

Well Ned and Stan both have the same personality type...

I also find king Bobby B an absolute idiot in distrusting Stannis the Mannis....

Besides for the fact that Ned has more of a romantic worldview then the Mannis has. 

[Angel Eyes]

Ned Stark and Randyll Tarly. Both are stern men who are/were subordinate to a fat, incompetent lord (King Robert for Ned, Mace Tyrell for Randyll). Both are superb soldiers with a strong (if twisted in Randyll's case) sense of justice. Both carry Valyrian Steel swords, are happily married, and have a son who went to The Wall but while Ned loves all his children and never showed favoritism, Randyll openly hated Sam for his weakness and forced him to take the Black.

[Angel Eyes]

Davos and Littlefinger. Both were raised from mercenary backgrounds by Baratheons who received nicknames owing to their backgrounds; Davos is the Onion Knight because he was a smuggler who brought onions to the besieged Baratheons while Littlefinger is so called because he is from the Fingers and was small as a child (he's still a relatively short man in adulthood). However, Davos embraced it as shown by his sigil (a ship with an onion on the sail) while Littlefinger hates his nickname. Davos is shown to be a decent man who is loyal to Stannis while Littlefinger is only in it for himself and backstabs everyone he doesn't need even while they're in the middle of a task. Their marital situations are different as well; Davos is happily married with several children while Littlefinger is unmarried and only married for a political alliance while retaining feelings for his wife's sister (and her daughter).

[Sigella]

Stannis and Randall Tarly. They are emotionally stunted in a very similar way. I want to say that Stannis isn't as cruel, but then again, he seems set up to burn his daughter so perhaps not.

[Angel Eyes]

On 8/27/2020 at 4:34 PM, Sigella said:

Stannis and Randall Tarly. They are emotionally stunted in a very similar way. I want to say that Stannis isn't as cruel, but then again, he seems set up to burn his daughter so perhaps not.

They're also married to Florents; Stannis is married to Selyse Florent while Randyll is married to Melessa Florent; for all his faults Randyll has had a happy marriage while Stannis' marriage is unhappy. Stannis’ daughter has inherited the Florent ears, while Sam (for some reason) hasn’t.

 

[Sigella]

On 8/28/2020 at 6:56 PM, Angel Eyes said:

They're also married to Florents; Stannis is married to Selyse Florent while Randyll is married to Melessa Florent; for all his faults Randyll has had a happy marriage while Stannis' marriage is unhappy. Stannis’ daughter has inherited the Florent ears, while Sam (for some reason) hasn’t.

 

I don’t think we really know enough to say whether or not their marriages are happy ones. Yeah, we know Stannis snaps at Selyse; but he does that to everyone so it might not be as bad as it looks on his part. Bedchamber-deaths do happen sooner or later in life and they might not equate unhapiness either.

As for Randall the one single thing we know about his marriage is that if he’d kill Sam he will lie to his wife ro spare her because he thinks she’s a ”good woman”. Given his proven poor capacity of empathy this would be totally compatible with him beating her up or being an overall douche.

 

GRRM likes them twists and both of these are almost like a set up:

on Randyll we get that one little nugget of ”aaw, at least he cares about his wife” which could soooo easily get turned 180 and maybe even be more likely considering what else we know of him,

on Stannis oth we only see him being curt and cold, although Selyse seems very supportive and is talking fondly of him, further he doesn’t complain about her (note that complaining is his #2 favourite activity so if he had cause he would, right?).

[Quoth the raven,]

On 8/27/2020 at 4:34 PM, Sigella said:

Stannis and Randall Tarly. They are emotionally stunted in a very similar way. I want to say that Stannis isn't as cruel, but then again, he seems set up to burn his daughter so perhaps not.

Stannis is a very cruel man.  He barbecued his own soldiers for the crime of eating the dead.  They ate the dead to survive.  What Tarly did to Samwell does not even compare.

[Angel Eyes]

Jon Snow and Waymar Royce. Both are members of high-end families who are not expected to inherit their father’s land and titles and so join the Night’s Watch out of a desire for honor; they even look similar, with a tall and lean build, dark hair and grey eyes. Jon was perceived as arrogant by lowborn recruits, which is the same reason Will and Gared dislike Waymar. Because Waymar is missing (we know he’s dead), Jon isn’t babied and is able to be reminded that he comes from a privileged background and becomes closer to the other recruits, while Waymar never got that lesson and ignored his more experienced colleagues’ advice, getting killed and having his body raised as a wight to kill someone else.

[Sigella]

On 8/30/2020 at 4:00 AM, Quoth the raven, said:

Stannis is a very cruel man.  He barbecued his own soldiers for the crime of eating the dead.  They ate the dead to survive.  What Tarly did to Samwell does not even compare.

Idk know about this. My reasoning goes something like this: Those soldiers did cannibalsim, wheras Sam’s crime was having an undesireable personality.

Soldiers and civilians lives aren’t morally equal. Soldiers join an army knowing they might die and/or kill other people. Civilians have a higher degree of innocence, even without cannibalism.

Adults and childrens lives aren’t morally equal. Children have a higher degree of innocence.

This weighs up the difference between buring people alive ( extremely cruel) and abusing, making death threats and forcing someone into lifelong imprisonment (moderately cruel).

[Angel Eyes]

Bran and Varamyr. Both are skinchangers who were regarded as physically weak while young and broke the warging taboos (like warging into humans), but while Bran didn’t know about the taboos and tries to follow Jojen’s instructions, Varamyr, who had a mentor, knew of the taboos and willingly broke them to become more powerful. 

Really, Varamyr is this for the Stark children as a whole, it’s just more obvious with Bran.

[Angel Eyes]

Varamyr and Euron. Both are from Westerosi fringe cultures who are magic users who use their abilities to willfully break the taboos of their culture and do whatever they please, including killing at least one of their siblings. Both have also sired many children but see them as worthless.

[Angel Eyes]

Harrold "Harry" Hardyng to Robert Baratheon. Both are strong, handsome men (when Robert was young at least) who spent much of their youths in the Vale and are womanizers with at least one bastard daughter but Harry abandoned his daughter Alys and her mother while Robert would have taken Mya Stone to court if Cersei hadn't threatened Mya. Both are also betrothed to a Stark lady (albeit unknowingly in Harry's case) and their womanizing gives the Stark lady a lot of reservations about a betrothal with him. They also contrast in that Robert was quite enthusiastic about the match while Harry is not thrilled about the idea of marrying an upjumped sellsword's bastard (which Sansa is masquerading as).

[Angel Eyes]

Doran Martell and Wyman Manderly. Both are physically infirm men with poor diets (Doran has gout, Wyman is fat enough to be unable to ride) who have the appearance of appeasers (Doran refuses to openly act against the Lannisters while Wyman appears to execute Davos and bends the knee to get his son Wylis back), with a young female relation (or two or three or four in Doran's case) who supports more aggressive action against the Lannisters. However, both are the brains behind conspiracies to restore the old regimes to power (the Targaryens for Doran, the Starks for Wyman). How they contrast? Aside from living on opposite sides of Westeros, Wyman is much more vicious (Doran doesn't have cannibalism in mind) and has far more success because he's willing to be more open about his schemes to the players in his plan (Doran allowed Arianne to believe that she was being replaced in favor of Quentyn and let that hang over her head for more than a decade which led to an botched coup).

[Mourning Star]

The most obvious mirror/foil between two character in the series for me is Ned Stark/Tywin Lannister.

Their fathers die when they are young, best friends with a king but the relationship becomes troubled because of relations with a family member (Lyanna/Johanna), raise a bastard/dwarf as a son, promise their daughter they will marry the crown prince, and serve as Hand of the King.

So while their circumstances are remarkably similar, their actions are remarkably different.

Ned teaches knowing those who serve you, Tywin calls them tools.

Ned puts down a rebellion and takes the heir as a ward in an attempt to bind them closer, Tywin destroys the rebels root and stem.

For Ned "mercy is never a mistake", Tywin spares only those who go to their knees.

Ned goes where fighting is thickest, Tywin leads from the rear.

Ned dies for his child, Tywin is killed by his.

Ned believes in men, "a wall is only as strong as the man who defends it," while Tywin believes in practicalities and position, "one man atop a wall is worth ten men below it".

And of course...

Quote

Tell me, my honorable Lord Eddard, how are you any different from Robert, or me, or Jaime?"

"For a start," said Ned, "I do not kill children. You would do well to listen, my lady. I shall say this only once. When the king returns from his hunt, I intend to lay the truth before him. You must be gone by then. You and your children, all three, and not to Casterly Rock. If I were you, I should take ship for the Free Cities, or even farther, to the Summer Isles or the Port of Ibben. As far as the winds blow."

"Exile," she said. "A bitter cup to drink from."

"A sweeter cup than your father served Rhaegar's children," Ned said, "and kinder than you deserve. Your father and your brothers would do well to go with you. Lord Tywin's gold will buy you comfort and hire swords to keep you safe. You shall need them. I promise you, no matter where you flee, Robert's wrath will follow you, to the back of beyond if need be."

A Game of Thrones - Ned 12

Tywin kills the dragonspawn, while Ned saves!

[Angel Eyes]

Cersei and Gregor "The Mountain that Rides" Clegane.

• Both are descended from houses in the Westerlands albeit from different sides of the political spectrum: Cersei's family are the rulers and The Mountain's grandfather was a kennelmaster.
• Like The Mountain, Cersei is impulsive, sadistic, petty, and cruel; however she lacks the physical means to commit personal acts of violence, which The Mountain is all about.

• Both are abusive to the people in their employ; Cersei gives maids to be experimented on by Qyburn while The Mountain once killed one of his own men for snoring too loudly, servants disappear at random at his keep, and he suggests that the outriders who fail to spot the enemy should have their eyes removed and given to the next outrider.

  Quote

  A man who sees nothing has no use for his eyes. Cut them out and give them to your next outrider. Tell him you hope that four eyes might see better than two ... and if not, the man after him will have six. 

• Each is the eldest child of three children and abusive towards their siblings, one of whom is/was a Kingsguard.
• The youngest sibling, who was of the opposite gender (Tyrion for Cersei, the Clegane daughter for Gregor) was cared for by the middle sibling and the eldest sibling probably attempted to kill the youngest sibling (successful in Gregor's case).
• Both are also suspected of killing their spouses (indirectly in Cersei's case) 
• Both take copious amounts of drugs; Cersei drinks lots of wine while The Mountain takes extensive amounts of milk of the poppy (which is insufficient to dull his headaches).

Essentially, The Mountain is the walking personification of Cersei's wish to be a man.

[Angel Eyes]

Oberyn Martell and Ned Stark.

• While each have differing personalities and marital situations (Ned is a mostly stoic Northerner who is happily married while Oberyn is a fiery-tempered Dornishman who has a number of bastards), they have a number of similarities.
• From opposing sides of the continent and originate from mostly fringe cultures
• Both are second sons of families who were on opposite sides of the Queen of Love and Beauty incident at the Tourney at Harrenhal and never got over their sisters' deaths.
• Both travel to King's Landing due to their family's betrothals to a member of the royal family (Joffrey and Sansa for Ned, Myrcella and Trystane for Oberyn), but had their own agendas to investigate the death of someone they cared about and neither left King's Landing alive to tell the tale due to head trauma (Ned loses his head, Oberyn's gets pulverized).

[Angel Eyes]

Jon Snow and Gendry. Both are illegitimate sons of the top two commanders on the Rebels' side in Robert's Rebellion (unless Jon turns out to be Rhaegar and Lyanna's son) who grew up not knowing the opposite parent; Jon has never known his mother while Gendry has never met his father. Both have a close brotherly relationship with Arya Stark. What's ironic is that while both were raised under different circumstances (Jon was acknowledged by Eddard, raised with privilege and trained to fight and read while Gendry is unacknowledged by Robert and was a mere blacksmith after his mother died) and have similar personalities.