The Brotherhood Without Banners, Lady Stonehart, and Objectives

[Lady Rhodes]

2 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

If, not when

https://ladygwynhyfvar.com/2014/02/03/lemuncloaked-the-true-identity-of-lem-lemoncloak/

I believe that Lem being Richard Lonmouth will also have great consequences from BwB motives to Jon's parentage. 

I am interested in the theory of Lem being Lonmouth.  There is also a passing reference (I believe from Jeyne Heddle, but not positive, and this is a paraphrase) that his cloak could be the stained white of a Kingsguard.  Makes me wonder if he is one of Aerys seven.

I still do not understand what you are saying about the Blackfish.  How is he supposed to know about the Hound and Arya? When would he have discovered this information?

[TheLastWolf]

2 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

still do not understand what you are saying about the Blackfish.  How is he supposed to know about the Hound and Arya? When would he have discovered this information?

I mean we don't even know for sure if BF is with the BwB

And Lem could have been Rhaegar own Kingsguard. See my H+L = J post for more. 

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Let us again go back to Harrenhal where Robert Baratheon and Richard Lonmouth, (Rhaegar’s former squire and probably one of his 6/7 best mates who rode with him when they took Lyanna) vowed to unmask the Mystery Knight. I think that Lonmouth found that the mystery knight was Lyanna/Howland and that they were in a relationship. Good think that Lonmouth succeeded where Robert failed (Robert had no cause to hate Reed like he did Rhaegar, but he was Robert after all and we do not know what he’d have done if he learnt about his betrothed being with another man). I also think that Lonmouth is now…Lem Lemoncloak of the BwB ( see ladygwynhyfvar’s article about it).

 

https://ladygwynhyfvar.com/2014/02/03/lemuncloaked-the-true-identity-of-lem-lemoncloak/

 

[Lady Rhodes]

5 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

I mean we don't even know for sure if BF is with the BwB

I have grown very confused with this point.  I don't think anyone said that he was with the Brotherhood. I think it is an interesting thought, but I have not seen anything conclusive.

I think the point about Lyanna and Howland is not substantial.  I have speculated about an "inner circle" that is trying to bring about the Prince that Was Promised Prophecy, and Richard Lonmouth being part of that is interesting to me. 

[Frey family reunion]

27 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I am interested in the theory of Lem being Lonmouth.  There is also a passing reference (I believe from Jeyne Heddle, but not positive, and this is a paraphrase) that his cloak could be the stained white of a Kingsguard.  Makes me wonder if he is one of Aerys seven.

The problem with the theory is that unless Lonmouth picked up some mummery after the rebellion, it seems unlikely that the fairly rough, uncouth rotten toothed Lem was the son of a noble family.  Add in the fact that Lem has some choice words to say about nobility and lords, it also makes it unlikely that he is a child of such priveledge.

I did a thread a while back with the theory that Lem may be the unnamed Bastard of Darry that Varys references in ACOK.  Perhaps named after Willem Darry; Lem being short for Willem as opposed to short for Lemon as Sevenstrings claims.

[Lady Rhodes]

3 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

The problem with the theory is that unless Lonmouth picked up some mummery after the rebellion, it seems unlikely that the fairly rough, uncouth rotten toothed Lem was the son of a noble family.  Add in the fact that Lem has some choice words to say about nobility and lords, it also makes it unlikely that he is a child of such priveledge.

I did a thread a while back with the theory that Lem may be the unnamed Bastard of Darry that Varys references in ACOK.  Perhaps named after Willem Darry; Lem being short for Willem as opposed to short for Lemon as Sevenstrings claims.

I like this better.

 

[TheLastWolf]

5 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

The problem with the theory is that unless Lonmouth picked up some mummery after the rebellion, it seems unlikely that the fairly rough, uncouth rotten toothed Lem was the son of a noble family.  Add in the fact that Lem has some choice words to say about nobility and lords, it also makes it unlikely that he is a child of such priveledge.

I did a thread a while back with the theory that Lem may be the unnamed Bastard of Darry that Varys references in ACOK.  Perhaps named after Willem Darry; Lem being short for Willem as opposed to short for Lemon as Sevenstrings claims.

See links about that Darry being the Elder Brother of Quiet Isle. That is better. And you know how circumstances change a man. See Lady Gwen's thread/article properly, all points are obvious. 

[Lord Lannister]

21 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I think that is the point.  War is hell and tarnishes everyone. Nothing is noble. I completely agree with your analysis of BwB under Beric versus Stoneheart, but I think that the "fall of man", so to speak, is the point.

I get that being the point. I just think there are plenty of examples of that in the story as is. The pre Stoneheart BWB was a perfect example. A noble goal with questionable means like kidnapping and ransoming little girls. The zombieification of it was just over the top to me to the point of cringe. 

I really hope Martin's going somewhere meaningful with zombie Cat because right now it just seems a cheap shock value thrill to me so far. It takes away far more from the characters and story than it gives to me.

[Lady Rhodes]

1 minute ago, Lord Lannister said:

I really hope Martin's going somewhere meaningful with zombie Cat because right now it just seems a cheap shock value thrill to me so far. It takes away far more from the characters and story than it gives to me.

That's a fair criticism. I believe GRRM said that she has a large role to play, so I think there is something to it.

[Frey family reunion]

2 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

See links about that Darry being the Elder Brother of Quiet Isle. That is better. And you know how circumstances change a man. See Lady Gwen's thread/article properly, all points are obvious. 

If we take the Elder Brother at his word, I don't think he can be a Darry:

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"When I died in the Battle of the Trident.  I fought for Prince Rhaegar, though he never knew my name.  I could not tell you why, save that the lord I served served a lord who served a lord who had decided to support the dragon rather than the stag.

The Darrys were directly under House Tully who had decided to support the stag as opposed to the dragon.

My guess is that the Elder Brother had to be from a Kightly House since it served another lord which served another lord in turn.  And that last Lord had to be one of the major houses that fought for the Targaryens.  Which means either the Martells or the Tyrells.  

My suspicion is that the Elder Brother may have served under House Fossoway of New Barrel (the green apple), which was a knightly House that served under House Fossoway of Cider Hall (red apple) which in turn served under House Tyrell, which supported the dragon.

It also just so happens to be a House who's founding we were made privy to in the tale of the Mystery Knight.

And interestingly, the Elder Brother greets Brienne and Ser Hyle thusly:

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"You must be thirsty.  Please, have some of our sweet cider to wash the dust of travel from your throats."

 

[zandru]

1 hour ago, TheLastWolf said:

Let us again go back to Harrenhal where Robert Baratheon and Richard Lonmouth, (Rhaegar’s former squire and probably one of his 6/7 best mates who rode with him when they took Lyanna) vowed to unmask the Mystery Knight.

Thanks for excerpting this! I'd been wondering who in 7 hells "Richard Lonmouth" was; the only references I've seen have been on this discussion group. Things make much more sense to me now.

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I like this better.

 

One of the reasons that I suspect that Lem is the Bastard of Darry that Varys mentioned, is that the story seems to be setting up a direct conflict with Lem under his current guise as the Hound and Ser Lyle Crakehall aka Strongboar who in turn is acting as a champion for Lady Mariya Frey, formerly Mariya Darry.

Mariya Frey is now the mother in law of the current Lord of House Darry, Lancel Lannister.  But more importantly she is also the last surviving daughter of House Darry.  If Lem is the MIA Bastard of Darry then their conflict in effect sets up a conflict of the last remaining son, albeit bastard son, of Darry and the true born daughter of Darry. Even though neither sport the name Darry.

This may be an intentional parallel to a conflict that may be setting up regarding Winterfell.  The Bastard of Winterfell, Jon Snow, vs the daughter of Winterfell Sansa Stark, aka Alayne Stone.  A conflict that Lady Stoneheart could possibly take an interest in.

[zandru]

4 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

This may be an intentional parallel to a conflict that may be setting up regarding Winterfell.  The Bastard of Winterfell, Jon Snow, vs the daughter of Winterfell Sansa Stark, aka Alayne Stone.  A conflict that Lady Stoneheart could possibly take an interest in.

A very interesting possibility! But note also that "the Bastard Alayne Stone" is also Mrs. Tyrion Lannister. And there is a suggestion that, as a result, Lord Rob Stark of Winterfell, once known as King Rob of the Free and Independent North (FAIN), put a clause disinheriting Sansa in favor of Jon Snow into his will. Which might have been shipped off to Oldtown for archiving in the Citadel's records on the Mirraham, and might yet be found.

Still lots of complexities.

[Lady Rhodes]

27 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

One of the reasons that I suspect that Lem is the Bastard of Darry that Varys mentioned, is that the story seems to be setting up a direct conflict with Lem under his current guise as the Hound and Ser Lyle Crakehall aka Strongboar who in turn is acting as a champion for Lady Mariya Frey, formerly Mariya Darry.

Mariya Frey is now the mother in law of the current Lord of House Darry, Lancel Lannister.  But more importantly she is also the last surviving daughter of House Darry.  If Lem is the MIA Bastard of Darry then their conflict in effect sets up a conflict of the last remaining son, albeit bastard son, of Darry and the true born daughter of Darry. Even though neither sport the name Darry.

This may be an intentional parallel to a conflict that may be setting up regarding Winterfell.  The Bastard of Winterfell, Jon Snow, vs the daughter of Winterfell Sansa Stark, aka Alayne Stone.  A conflict that Lady Stoneheart could possibly take an interest in.

This is a very interesting parallel.  This also places Lady Stoneheart in an interesting predictament because, as a previous poster mentioned, she hates bastards yet she know has one in her employ (for lack of a better phrasing).  

While I have steadfastly argued for my belief that death and resurrection sharpens the last motives of characters, part of me wonders if this will, for lack of a better word, bond Jon and Catelyn. (I am operating under the presumption that Jon will be resurrected by Melisandre here)  A shared experience, if you will.

 

[Lady Rhodes]

20 minutes ago, zandru said:

a clause disinheriting Sansa in favor of Jon Snow into his will. Which might have been shipped off to Oldtown for archiving in the Citadel's records on the Mirraham, and might yet be found.

Still lots of complexities.

Woah, woah, woah.  I am pretty sure that the will is with Mormont and Glover at Grey Waterwatch.  What makes you think it is in Oldtown on the Mirraham?

[kissdbyfire]

33 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Woah, woah, woah.  I am pretty sure that the will is with Mormont and Glover at Grey Waterwatch.  What makes you think it is in Oldtown on the Mirraham?

What makes you think the will is w/ either Maege or Glover? Robb specifically tells them they’ll be carrying false intel, in case they’re captured. He not only never says anything about sending the will w/ them, but he’s being careful enough to make a plan in case they fall into enemy hands. It would make zero sense to send the will w/ Mormont and Glover.

[zandru]

38 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Woah, woah, woah.  I am pretty sure that the will is with Mormont and Glover at Grey Waterwatch.  What makes you think it is in Oldtown on the Mirraham?

Because Robb & Co. had just been getting the news out of the Iron Isles from the captain. With Balon Greyjoy's sudden death, he managed to get his ship out of Pyke and within reporting distance of Robb's armies. The captain would have been headed south (keeping his distance from the Iron Fleet), and Oldtown is a major destination at any time. The Citadel would have been a relatively nonpartisan repository for anything of lasting importance.

[Lady Rhodes]

12 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

What makes you think the will is w/ either Maege or Glover? Robb specifically tells them they’ll be carrying false intel, in case they’re captured. He not only never says anything about sending the will w/ them, but he’s being careful enough to make a plan in case they fall into enemy hands. It would make zero sense to send the will w/ Mormont and Glover.

 

6 minutes ago, zandru said:

Because Robb & Co. had just been getting the news out of the Iron Isles from the captain. With Balon Greyjoy's sudden death, he managed to get his ship out of Pyke and within reporting distance of Robb's armies. The captain would have been headed south (keeping his distance from the Iron Fleet), and Oldtown is a major destination at any time. The Citadel would have been a relatively nonpartisan repository for anything of lasting importance.

Fair points. I concede that it is possible Mormont and Glover do not have the will. But I am still not seeing how it could have gotten to the Mirraham?

[Hugorfonics]

6 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

You are not wrong. Before she died she was willing to sue for peace. But upon her resurrection, I think that goes out the window. 

Yea, your probably right. Im still holding on to the hope that she can find peace though

6 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

  (and Ironborn, I'd argue, too),

I aint arguing. Ironborn commit mad crimes, which was the brotherhoods reason for hanging Hyle Hunt

6 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

  I don't think that finding Arya would bring out the good in her, more that she would use Arya to further her plots for revenge because that is now what has consumed her.

As a wise man once said, takes one to know one. What's Arya if not someone consumed with revenge? 

Perhaps when they find each other theyll recognize each other as the vengeance fiends they are and decide to change their lives

At the very least, I do think theyll be happy to see each other, as any mother and child would be

6 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I have speculated that Areo Hotah may find out whilst in Dorne what happened at the Tower of Joy. What a twist for him, of all people, being the one to unravel that mystery!

Thatd be pretty cool

6 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Can you provide text to support this?

Sure!

6 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I wanted to double check because my understanding is the humanitarian mission went by the wayside and they are now in pursuit of a vengeance mission

Whats the difference? Vengeance, justice, mercy and murder, it's all semantics.

6 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I have looked for your quote about the orphanage, but I only find references to Lem trying to find "the hound"/Biter in the Saltpans. 

But yea, an orphanage is pretty humanitarian. We see Gendry, whom is a knight of the hollow hill, residing with the other children. Compounded with Lem we can see that the orphanage is under Cats protection and probably facilitation 

(This quote? And Rorge, not Biter)

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Lem should not have left the crossroads. He was told to stay close, hidden, to come at once if he saw smoke rising from the chimney . . . but when word reached him that the Mad Dog of Saltpans had been seen making his way north along the Green Fork, he took the bait. We have been hunting that lot for so long . . . still, he ought to have known better. As it was, it was half a day before he realized that the mummers had used a stream to hide their tracks and doubled back behind him, and then he lost more time circling around a column of Frey knights. If not for you, only corpses might have remained at the inn by the time that Lem and his men got back.

We also see that the smallfolk/minor lords still look upon the Brotherhood as friends

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Dondarrion's men are looking for him too. They have put out word that they mean to hang him for what he did at Saltpans. They had no part of that. Lord Randyll is putting it about that they did in hopes of turning the commons against Beric and his brotherhood. He will never take the lightning lord so long as the smallfolk are protecting him. And there's this other band, led by this woman Stoneheart . . .

And even take their side

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How far did Black Walder track this hooded woman and her men?"

"His hounds picked up their scent again north of Hag's Mire," the older woman told him.

"He swears that he was no more than half a day behind them when they vanished into the Neck."

"Let them rot there," declared Ser Kennos cheerfully. "If the gods are good, they'll be swallowed up in quicksand or gobbled down by lizard-lions."

"Or taken in by frogeaters," said Ser Danwell Frey. "I would not put it past the crannogmen to shelter outlaws."

"Would that it were only them," said Lady Mariya. "Some of the river lords are hand in glove with Lord Beric's men as well."

"The smallfolk too," sniffed her daughter. "Ser Harwyn says they hide them and feed them, and when he asks where they've gone, they lie. They lie to their own lords!"

In fact some have fully embraced Lady Azor Ahai

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Don't get me started on Lord Beric. He's here, he's there, he's everywhere, but when you send men after him, he melts away like dew. The river lords are helping him, never doubt it. A bloody marcher lord, if you can believe it. One day you hear the man is dead, the next they're saying how he can't be killed." Ser Daven put his wine cup down. "My scouts report fires in the high places at night. Signal fires, they think . . . as if there were a ring of watchers all around us. And there are fires in the villages as well. Some new god . . ."

 

6 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I think that we are in agreement more than appears.  I agree with this. I think the Brotherhood, thematically, is an exploration of the fall of man. How noble their cause (welfare of the commonfolk!) yet how quickly it decayed and rotted. I don't think it is hypocrisy, though, as much as it is the inevitably that war is hell and it touches even the noblest of causes. Were they outlaws before? Absolutely. But that was a badge they could wear with pride. What they have become though is much less so.  

They were always murderous outlaws though, they kidnap Sandor and try to put the entirety of 5 kings upon him, along with Aegon and Rhaenys. 

6 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I don't know if you watch this or are familiar, but the CW television show Arrow explored this in the earlier seasons with vigilantism versus common criminal.  That is what I feel with the Brotherhood.

Nah, I tried getting into it but couldn't.

If theres any literature i like more then asoiaf though its batman lol, so im similar with the conflict

6 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

She isn't carving herself a kingdom. She is fighting for revenge. Very different.

Again, semantics. Robb did not go south to create a kingdom either

6 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

This leads me to believe that they lost Arya way ahead of time.

They had her though, certainly Gendry and Harwin wanted to rescue her from Sandor. But yea at the end of asos Cats men were looking for Sandor possibly last seen at the Twins. This means the brotherhoods doing some detective work and probably spoke to that ferrymen who Sandor robbed. 

The next step would probably be to the inn where Poliver and the Tickler were killed, pretty memorable incident. Then lastly to the docks where some horse seller would remember a little girl who sold off two horses. Its a strong possibility someone saw her on the Bravossi ship sailing home

[zandru]

20 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

But I am still not seeing how it could have gotten to the Mirraham?

(sigh)

From the Tower of the Hand's summary of that chapter:

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The rain does not let up, and the progress slows to a crawl in Hag's Mire. Lord Jason catches up to the column there. He brings with him the captain of the Myraham, who reports that Balon Greyjoy is dead. What's more, his brother Euron returned to Pyke the very day Balon died and claimed the Seastone Chair. When Lord Sawane Botley objected, Euron had him drowned in a cask of seawater. Robb sees the opportunity here. He realizes that Victarion and Asha must return to Pyke to contest Euron's hold on the throne and that they will take most of their ships and captains with them, weakening the defenses at Moat Cailin. Robb tells Lord Jason to prepare two ships to return to the North. Galbart will be on one and Lady Maege on the other, and they will make for Greywater Watch to inform Lord Howland of the plan. After the wedding, Robb will divide his army into three battles led by himself, the Greatjon, and Lord Roose. While the Greatjon leads an attack up the causeway, Robb's battle will bypass Moat Cailin with Howland's help and fall on the castle from the rear. He also informs Catelyn that she will wait out the rest of the war at Seagard. Finally, he has his lords witness his royal decree naming his heir, presumably Jon.

And from the chapter itself (Catelyn V, Storm of Swords):

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"Captain," said Robb when the man was done, "you have my thanks, and you will not go unrewarded. Lord Jason [Mallister] will take you back to your ship when we are done. Pray wait outside."

Done with what? Making plans for their next series of troop movements and...

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"One more matter. Lord Balon has left chaos in his wake, we hope. I would not do the same. Yet I have no son as yet, my brothers are dead, and my sister is wed to a Lannister. I've thought long and hard about who might follow me. I commmand you now as my true and loyal lords to fix your seals to this document as witnesses to my decision."

So we have the Captain  of the Myraham waiting outside. A document is being witnessed and finalized. Jason Mallister will then escort the Captain back to his ship, the Myraham. That's how Robb's will could have gotten to that ship.

Note that nothing says explicitly that the Captain will receive a copy, or that he's headed to Oldtown. But one could easily draw that conclusion. It would be a very sensible and logical decision, as Robb had become known for (all except for that thing with Jeyne Westerling...)

[zandru]

20 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

They had her though, certainly Gendry and Harwin wanted to rescue [Arya] from Sandor. But yea at the end of asos Cats men were looking for Sandor possibly last seen at the Twins. This means the brotherhoods doing some detective work and probably spoke to that ferrymen who Sandor robbed. 

The next step would probably be to the inn where Poliver and the Tickler were killed, pretty memorable incident. Then lastly to the docks where some horse seller would remember a little girl who sold off two horses. Its a strong possibility someone saw her on the Bravossi ship sailing home

RE: "rescue". More like "recover stolen property." Arya was a bag of gold on long skinny legs, and little more, to the Brothers w/o Banners. But yes, the Bros are definitely doing investigative work.

We know they spoke to the ferrymen; it's in the text. Sandor didn't "rob" them, he cheated them of their payment. The man he did "rob" was the pig farmer, taking his wagon, boots, and clothing. The Bros knew this, too. They also knew he was spotted at the Twins during the Red Wedding, even though Merrett Frey did not.

Re: Inn at the Crossroads. Arya and Sandor went first to a town near the mountains around the Vale of Aryn. That's where their trail would run, not to the Inn. Who in that village would know where the unlikely pair went next? They could hardly wait to see the back of them.

Question the horse seller in Saltpans? Really? Very shortly after Arya's ship left (and ironically, Brienne saw it set sail), the Brave Companions remnant, with Rorge wearing Sandor's helm, attacked the city and none survived. No further information from those quarters.

Arya's trail has gone cold. They'll never find her.