The Brotherhood Without Banners, Lady Stonehart, and Objectives

[Lady Rhodes]

17 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Im still holding on to the hope that she can find peace though

I feel you there.

18 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

What's Arya if not someone consumed with revenge? 

Word. I love Arya, but this is true.  I could definitely see them being catalysts for each other (or at the very least, LS for Arya) to find peace.

21 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Whats the difference? Vengeance, justice, mercy and murder, it's all semantics.

I'd argue that it is a huge difference.  There is a difference between Robin Hood and his Merry Men (who I would be willing to bet the BwB are based on) and vigilantism.  I only watched the first couple of seasons of Arrow, but (and this is of course an extreme summary and paraphrase) he is seeking revenge and investigating problems, but he is killing people to do it.  At one point, he is finally questioned on it, basically "you are being detective, judge, jury, and executioner. by killing these people, how does that make you any better?"  it makes him vow not to kill, which becomes a whole other thing and detracts from the point I am trying to make.  I think you get the gist of what I am trying to say though with Robin Hood ethos versus Vigilante ethos.

29 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

But yea, an orphanage is pretty humanitarian.

It is...I was thinking that was earlier in the series, not post Stoneheart.

30 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Dondarrion's men are looking for him too. They have put out word that they mean to hang him for what he did at Saltpans. They had no part of that. Lord Randyll is putting it about that they did in hopes of turning the commons against Beric and his brotherhood. He will never take the lightning lord so long as the smallfolk are protecting him. And there's this other band, led by this woman Stoneheart . . .

This seems to lend credence to the theory that the group has split.  Obviously Randyll doesn't know that Beric is dead, but still.

 

Reading the rest of your post, you make some good points.  It has been too long since I have given this a close read. I am going to need to revisit some things!

 

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Yea, your probably right. Im still holding on to the hope that she can find peace though

I’ve never been particularly fond of Cat myself.  I think we see her true inner ugliness come to the forefront during her resurrection.  Her actions towards Jon show that she can be particularly cruel and her motivation is jealous possessiveness.

And let us not forget the bloodshed that she started when she without cause unjustly kidnapped Tyrion Lannister and subjected him to that farce of a trial in the Eyrie.  

ETA: and let us also not forget the murder of poor mentally challenged Jinglebells.  Granted she was probably going insane at the time but still, very unecessary.

Justice for Jinglebells.

[Hugorfonics]

29 minutes ago, zandru said:

RE: "rescue". More like "recover stolen property." Arya was a bag of gold on long skinny legs, and little more, to the Brothers w/o Banners. But yes, the Bros are definitely doing investigative work.

We know they spoke to the ferrymen; it's in the text. Sandor didn't "rob" them, he cheated them of their payment. The man he did "rob" was the pig farmer, taking his wagon, boots, and clothing. The Bros knew this, too. They also knew he was spotted at the Twins during the Red Wedding, even though Merrett Frey did not.

Re: Inn at the Crossroads. Arya and Sandor went first to a town near the mountains around the Vale of Aryn. That's where their trail would run, not to the Inn. Who in that village would know where the unlikely pair went next? They could hardly wait to see the back of them.

Question the horse seller in Saltpans? Really? Very shortly after Arya's ship left (and ironically, Brienne saw it set sail), the Brave Companions remnant, with Rorge wearing Sandor's helm, attacked the city and none survived. No further information from those quarters.

Arya's trail has gone cold. They'll never find her.

Rescue, recovery, liberate, swear fealty. Semantics lol 

Lmao, cold. I totally forgot she boarded at the saltpans.

26 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I love Arya

Of course

26 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I could definitely see them being catalysts for each other (or at the very least, LS for Arya) to find peace.

Yea that sounds nice. 

26 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I'd argue that it is a huge difference.  There is a difference between Robin Hood and his Merry Men (who I would be willing to bet the BwB are based on) and vigilantism.  I only watched the first couple of seasons of Arrow, but (and this is of course an extreme summary and paraphrase) he is seeking revenge and investigating problems, but he is killing people to do it.  At one point, he is finally questioned on it, basically "you are being detective, judge, jury, and executioner. by killing these people, how does that make you any better?"  it makes him vow not to kill, which becomes a whole other thing and detracts from the point I am trying to make.  I think you get the gist of what I am trying to say though with Robin Hood ethos versus Vigilante ethos.

But Beric was detective judge jury and executioner too. He knew he was braking the law but continued to drape the trees like christmas. Catelyns just more in your face with it because the rl are now swarming with Lannister and Frey foot soldiers. Plus shes all zombied out, unlike Beric who was only like 3/4 zombied out

30 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

It is...I was thinking that was earlier in the series, not post Stoneheart

Nah. All those quotes are from affc. Gendry doesn't seem like a newcomer or anything either

32 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

This seems to lend credence to the theory that the group has split.  Obviously Randyll doesn't know that Beric is dead, but still.

Exactly. In fact, who does? If I was there I wouldnt belive it (asos quote) 

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What matters is, we have the scent now. You'll soon be seeing Thoros and the lightning lord, I'll wager."

"If you're their men, why do they hide from you?"

Tom Sevenstrings rolled his eyes at that, but Harwin gave her an answer. "I wouldn't call it hiding, milady, but it's true, Lord Beric moves about a lot, and seldom lets on what his plans are. That way no one can betray him. By now there must be hundreds of us sworn to him, maybe thousands, but it wouldn't do for us all to trail along behind him. We'd eat the country bare, or get butchered in a battle by some bigger host. The way we're scattered in little bands, we can strike in a dozen places at once, and be off somewhere else before they know. And when one of us is caught and put to the question, well, we can't tell them where to find Lord Beric no matter what they do to us."

Theyre always kinda split. 

I think Thoros would have mentioned a riff. Plus whos gonna quit? Aryas friends? Hosters subjects? Eddards household guards? The bwb is practically tailor made for Catelyn 

36 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Reading the rest of your post, you make some good points.  It has been too long since I have given this a close read. I am going to need to revisit some things!

bwb is one of my favorite parts of asoiaf.  Theres always lots to revisit lol

12 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I’ve never been particularly fond of Cat myself.  

I didnt like her my first read, until she became LSH, then, wow. (My favorite part of asoiaf) Now on rereads im a fan, pre Stoneheart too

14 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Her actions towards Jon show that she can be particularly cruel and her motivation is jealous possessiveness.

For real. What a fucking disgusting person. But you know, its asoiaf so almost everyone is lol

17 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

And let us not forget the bloodshed that she started when she without cause unjustly kidnapped Tyrion Lannister and subjected him to that farce of a trial in the Eyrie.

 Uh, I disagree. Tywin started the bloodshed. She had cause. It was a legal arrest.

She didnt know her sister was a lying murderous nutbag 

[Frey family reunion]

22 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

 Uh, I disagree. Tywin started the bloodshed. She had cause. It was a legal arrest.

She didnt know her sister was a lying murderous nutbag

I'm not sure of the legality of the arrest.  It was basically all on the word of Petyr Baelish with his ridiculous story of losing his dagger to Tyrion during a bet.  Pretty flimsy.

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

I'm not sure of the legality of the arrest. 

Its kosher.

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"This man came a guest into my house, and there conspired to murder my son, a boy of seven," she proclaimed to the room at large, pointing. Ser Rodrik moved to her side, his sword in hand. "In the name of King Robert and the good lords you serve, I call upon you to seize him and help me return him to Winterfell to await the king's justice."

The knights and men at arms are charged with defending the realm, so they have every right to arrest a suspect of attempted murder

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

It was basically all on the word of Petyr Baelish with his ridiculous story of losing his dagger to Tyrion during a bet. 

The word of Petyr, the kings advisor, and all in the presence of the master of whisperers. The fact that Varys the spymaster was there, and didnt object to anything, gives credence to Petyrs story. 

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

Pretty flimsy

Very flimsy. If Lysa wasnt so nuts, or treasonous, then Tyrions trial would have easily proved Petyr guilty of framing and possibly Joff for attempt murder

[TheLastWolf]

11 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

One of the reasons that I suspect that Lem is the Bastard of Darry that Varys mentioned, is that the story seems to be setting up a direct conflict with Lem under his current guise as the Hound and Ser Lyle Crakehall aka Strongboar who in turn is acting as a champion for Lady Mariya Frey, formerly Mariya Darry.

Mariya Frey is now the mother in law of the current Lord of House Darry, Lancel Lannister.  But more importantly she is also the last surviving daughter of House Darry.  If Lem is the MIA Bastard of Darry then their conflict in effect sets up a conflict of the last remaining son, albeit bastard son, of Darry and the true born daughter of Darry. Even though neither sport the name Darry.

This may be an intentional parallel to a conflict that may be setting up regarding Winterfell.  The Bastard of Winterfell, Jon Snow, vs the daughter of Winterfell Sansa Stark, aka Alayne Stone.  A conflict that Lady Stoneheart could possibly take an interest in.

https://ladygwynhyfvar.com/2014/02/03/lemuncloaked-the-true-identity-of-lem-lemoncloak/

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Who among us hasn’t wondered at the true identity of the charming Lem Lemoncloak? One of the leaders of the Brotherhood without Banners, Lem appears on the page with no true name and no history, although we have names and stories for many of his fellows, including several of far less significance to the narrative. Some time ago a chance combination of musings inspired by the questions of fellow posters at westeros.org led me to connect Lem with another character whose name is mentioned but once and who is alluded to on only one other occasion. What would lead one to connect Lem with Ser Richard Lonmouth, erstwhile squire and companion of Prince Rhaegar Targaryen? To be honest, at first it was nothing more than the colour of his cloak combined with the conviction that the knight of skull and kisses is meant to be significant. But it turns out that there are quite a few textual hints that support the connection. While I initially laid this theory out on my own, much credit must be given to posters at westeros who picked up this cracked pot and ran with it. I don’t think it’s an exaggeration to say that with their help, this pot will now hold water.

In ASoS chapter 43, the Ghost of High Heart demands payment for her news:

“A skin of wine for my dreams, and for my news a kiss from the great oaf in the yellow cloak…His mouth will taste of lemons and mine of bones“

Earlier, the GoHH was consulted regarding Lord Beric’s whereabouts. At that meeting, the little woman who speaks of everyone in terms of their sigils and representations of their Houses, had this exchange with Lem:

“Dreams,” grumbled Lem Lemoncloak, “what good are dreams? Fish women and drowned crows. I had a dream myself last night. I was kissing this tavern wench I used to know. Are you going to pay me for that, old woman?”

“The wench is dead,” the woman hissed. “Only worms may kiss her now.” ASoS, chapter 17

With the bard Tom o’ Sevens the connecting reference at both meetings is a song. For Lem … kisses.

The arms of House Lonmouth have been described as “quartered of six: red lips strewn on yellow, yellow skulls strewn on black.” It was the connection of kisses, skulls (bones) and yellow with Lem which provided the “aha!” But the connections do not end there.

When Arya first meets him, she thinks he has the look of a soldier:

The man beside him stood a good foot taller, and had the look of a soldier. A longsword and dirk hung from his studded leather belt, rows of overlapping steel rings were sewn onto his shirt, and his head was covered by a black iron half-helm shaped like a cone. He had bad teeth and a bushy brown beard, but it was his hooded yellow cloak that drew the eye. Thick and heavy, and stained here with grass and there with blood, frayed along the bottom and patched with deerskin on the right shoulder, the greatcloak gave the big man the look of some huge yellow bird. ASoS, chapter 13

From lack of direct reference, it appears that he was not one of the original company that set out from King’s Landing with Lord Beric, but one of those who joined the Brotherhood in the Riverlands. Yet he does make a possibly revealing comment in this exchange:

Anguy the Archer said, “We’re king’s men.”

Arya frowned. “Which king?”

“King Robert,” said Lem, in his yellow cloak. ASoS, chapter 13

How to explain a large man loyal to Robert who has the look of a soldier, wears a distinctive yellow cloak and was living in the Riverlands prior to Lord Beric’s mission? Let’s take a look at the bare facts of Richard Lonmouth. We know that he was once Prince Rhaegar’s squire and companion:

Myles Mooton was Prince Rhaegar’s squire, and Richard Lonmouth after him. When they won their spurs, he knighted them himself, and they remained his close companions. ASoS, chapter 8

We also know that House Lonmouth was a stormlands house, and that Ser Richard was a one-time drinking companion to the Lord of the Stormlands, Robert Baratheon:

The storm lord drank down the knight of skulls and kisses in a wine-cup war. ASoS, chapter 24

Knowing Robert’s reputation as a prodigious drinker, Ser Richard must have been of a similar bent, to engage him so. Lem is a large man also known to enjoy his drink:

Lem Lemoncloak pushed forward. He and Greenbeard were the only men there tall enough to look the Hound in the eye. ASoS, chapter 34

“You must have been drunk, or asleep.”

“Us? Drunk?”  Tom drank a long draught of ale. “Never.” ASoS, chapter 13

We are never told which side Ser Richard joined Robert’s Rebellion on.  Myles Mooton fought for the Targaryens and was killed at Stoney Sept by Robert Baratheon himself. Even the last we hear of Lonmouth doesn’t give a clear indication. Following the appearance of the Knight of the Laughing Tree at the Harrenhal tourney:

That night at the great castle, the storm lord and the knight of skulls and kisses each swore they would unmask him, and the king himself urged men to challenge him, declaring that the face behind the helm was no friend of his … The king was wroth and even sent his son the dragon prince to seek the man, but all they ever found was his painted shield. ASoS, chapter 24

Here we have no clear indication of which House he would side with: that of his friend and mentor Rhaegar Targaryen or that of his drinking buddy and overlord Robert Baratheon. But perhaps the words of House Lonmouth might be a hint that Ser Richard did indeed take a side.

The Choice is Yours

In his role of hangman for the Brotherhood, Lem is carrying out sentences based on a choice. In the case of Merret Frey, Lem gives the choice to Lady Stoneheart:

“She don’t speak,” said the big man in the yellow cloak. “You bloody bastards cut her throat too deep for that. But she remembers.” He turned to the dead woman and said. “What do you say, m’lady? Was he part of it?” ASoS, Epilogue

At Brienne’s “trial” the choice is given by the northman, while the sentence is carried out by Lem:

The northman said, “She says that you must choose. Take the sword and slay the Kingslayer, or be hanged for a betrayer. The sword or the noose, she says. Choose, she says. Choose.” AFfC, chapter 42

Lem is involved in choices being offered by the BwB, while there is also enough evidence to speculate he has made other fateful choices in his past. While “choice” can be seen as a major theme of ASoIaF, the fact that it is prominently featured in the house words of a minor house seems almost like a flag saying “look closely here”! Looking closely in this case has certainly led to some interesting theorizing.

Treading into speculative territory with the theme of choice, I’m going to suggest that Richard chose his overlord, Robert Baratheon and fought on his behalf during the Rebellion.  Just after Arya, Gendry and Hot Pie are taken in by the BwB the company arrives at the Inn of the Kneeling Man. Here the young people are given ale by the innkeeper’s wife because she has no milk or clean water to offer:

“…the river water tastes of war, with all the dead men drifting downstream. If I served you a cup of soup full of dead flies, would you drink it?”

“Arry would,” said Hot Pie. “I mean, Squab.”

“So would Lem,” offered Anguy with a sly smile. ASoS, chapter 13

Why would Anguy say such a thing? Could it be that Lem once drifted in the river with the dead? Much later the Elder Brother on the Quiet Isle tells Brienne his story of being left for dead in the river after the Battle of the Trident, and washing up downriver, alive and reborn to a new life. Could something similar have happened to Lem?

Later, Lem reveals some local knowledge that just might indicate he was in the area as these events occurred:

“Lord Lychester’s sons died in Robert’s Rebellion,” grumbled Lem. “Some on one side, some on t’other. He’s not been right in the head since.” ASoS, chapter 17

And finally at the Peach, the brothel in Stoney Sept where Robert may have taken refuge before the battle, Tansy has this to say to Lem:

“…Lem is that you? Still wearing the same ratty cloak are you? I know why you never wash it, I do. You’re afraid all the piss will wash out and we’ll see you’re really a knight o’ the Kingsguard!” ASoS, chapter 29

If Lem is Richard Lonmouth, he might have been present at Stoney Sept with Robert and be known to Tansy from that event.  If she had knowledge of him being a knight in service to the man who went on to become the king, it might well explain her “Kingsguard” joke. But why vanish from the page then? Speculation brings us back to AFfC, and Brienne’s POV. In chapter 25 Septon Meribald describes to Brienne, Pod and Ser Hyle the inner turmoil of the broken man.

“…even a man who has survived a hundred fights can break in his hundred-and-first. Brothers watch their brothers die, fathers lose their sons, friends see their friends trying to hold their entrails in after they’ve been gutted by an axe … They take a wound, and when that’s half-healed they take another … And one day they look around and realize all their friends and kin are gone … And the knights come down on them, faceless men clad all in steel, and the iron thunder of their charge seems to fill the world … And the man breaks.”

Meribald makes it clear that anyone can break, at any time. Every man has his limit and it’s just possible Ser Richard reached it in the aftermath of the Trident.  Two references make me believe this could be what happened to Lem:

“Bugger that,” said Lem Lemoncloak. “He’s our god too, and you owe us for your bloody lives. And what’s false about him? Might be your Smith can mend a broken sword, but can he heal a broken man?” ASoS, chapter 39

“You are not the only one with wounds, Lady Brienne. Some of my brothers were good men when this began…” AFfC, chapter 42

I’ve already suggested that Anguy’s “sly” comment may indicate that Lem went into the river with the dead at one time. Let’s suppose that Richard Lonmouth went into the river after the Battle of the Trident, as the Elder Brother did. If he was fished out and nursed back to health by some kind soul, it would have been some time before he was able to get news of what had happened in the battle and afterwards. Would he have been devastated to know that his friend the Prince had been killed by his overlord? Would the guilt of his choice have weighed heavily on him? Certainly that would be enough to cause a break. But I think there’s even more at play here. I’m speculating that Ser Richard chose the winning side, so why wouldn’t he have emerged at some point to claim his reward from his overlord and new King? Assuming Lem is Ser Richard, I think the explanation behind his abiding hatred of Lannisters might be the final piece of the puzzle. We don’t for sure know why Lem hates Lannisters so much, or if Richard Lonmouth was ever married. But we do know that Lem Lemoncloak was married, and had a child:

“I want my wife and daughter back,” said the Hound. “Can your father give me that?” AFfC, chapter 42

Going right on assuming Lem and Richard are one and the same, I will posit that Richard Lonmouth’s family was in King’s Landing during the Rebellion. Perhaps his wife came from a loyalist family, perhaps they thought it would be a safe place to retreat to. But we know that when the Lannisters sacked the city there was no mercy for anyone, from the royal family down to the poorest smallfolk. Could his wife and daughter have been among the casualties? It might explain his need to hang “lions” and judging by his comment, his association of them with that act. Finally, Lannisters being the new good-family of his former overlord might make it once and for all impossible to come forward and publicly serve Robert.

Because a revelation of this sort would require a narrative purpose, we return to the Tourney of Harrenhal and the knight of skulls and kisses vow to unmask the knight of the laughing tree (whom most of us assume to be Lyanna Stark.) We know that GRRM uses thematic parallels frequently in his narrative. We also know that Arya Stark bears a resemblance to her aunt:

“Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it. You remind me of her sometimes. You even look like her.” AGoT, chapter 22

Looking at some of the interactions between Arya and Lem, one incident in particular stands out. When Arya learns that she is in truth the prisoner of the BwB, she attempts to flee:

…when she glanced back over her shoulder four of them were coming after her, Anguy and Harwin and Greenbeard racing side by side with Lem farther back, his big yellow cloak flapping behind him as he rode. ASoS, chapter 17

It’s easy enough to imagine a similar scene with Lyanna pursued over similar ground by a group including Ser Richard Lonmouth.  Later, almost like a sly nod to this possibility Tom sings to Arya:

Tom winked at her as he sang:

And how she smiled and how she laughed,

the maiden of the tree.

She spun away and said to him,

No featherbed for me.

I’ll wear a gown of golden leaves,

And bind my hair with grass.

But you can be my forest love,

and me your forest lass.

ASoS, chapter 17

Here then we arrive at a possible narrative purpose for Lem being Richard Lonmouth. He might be able to shed light of Rhaegar and Lyanna’s first interaction, the reason Rhaegar crowned Lyanna QoLaB and possibly (if he remained in the Prince’s confidence) events that came after. At the very least he would be one of the few attendees of the Harrenhal tourney who is still alive.  This would place him in the same category as the elusive Howland Reed of One Who Knows Much and More.

In conclusion, Ser Richard Lonmouth, whose house colours are black and yellow, is never mentioned after his cameo at the Tourney of Harrenhal. During the Wot5K an outlaw of no known name or history appears in the Riverlands wearing a distinctive yellow cloak of heavy (and most likely at one time, expensive) cloth. In his arc, Lem is associated with kisses and choices, both known motifs of House Lonmouth. Based on these associations, a connection between the two can be made. Close reading further allows us to enter into some speculation to fill in the details of the intervening years. Finally, as to the significance of this theory, if he was a part of the search for the knight of the laughing tree, and some revelation was made, Ser Richard could be possessed of interesting insight into the story of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark.

Addendum, December 2014:

With new information now available from TWoIaF, the Supreme Court of Westeros taking up the case, and E09 of Radio Westeros presenting the theory in audio format, the time seems right for a short addendum. TWoIaF tells us that Ser Richard Lonmouth was among Rhaegar’s supporters at court when there was an obvious divide between Rhaegar and Aerys:

Prince Rhaegar’s support came from the younger men at court, including Lord Jon Connington, Ser Myles Mooton of Maidenpool, and Ser Richard Lonmouth. The Dornishmen who had come to court with the Princess Elia were in the prince’s confidence as well, particularly Prince Lewyn Martell, Elia’s uncle and a Sworn Brother of the Kingsguard. But the most formidable of all Rhaegar’s friends and allies in King’s Landing was surely Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning.

Since this description comes during a discussion of court politics and conspiration around the time of the Tourney of Harrenhal, the implication seems to be that Lonmouth supported regime change. Next from TWoIaF is the strong hint that Lonmouth accompanied Rhaegar into the Riverlands on that fateful mission that resulted in the disappearance of Lyanna Stark:

With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the riverlands, not ten leagues from Harrenhal . . . where Rhaegar would once again come face-to-face with Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, and with her light a fire that would consume his house and kin and all those he loved—and half the realm besides.

Let’s revisit Ser Barristan’s information: “Myles Mooton was Prince Rhaegar’s squire, and Richard Lonmouth after him. When they won their spurs, he knighted them himself, and they remained his close companions” With that in mind, combined with the information in TWoIaF, we can surmise that the half dozen companions were most likely Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent (as previously revealed in the WoIaF app) Mooton and Lonmouth (both identified as close companions of the Prince on more than one occasion) and possibly Connington and Prince Lewyn Martell, whom TWoIaF indicates were also strong supporters of Rhaegar.

Given the outcome of the Rhaegar and Lyanna situation, with Aerys executing Rickard and Brandon Stark and calling for the heads of two of his Lords Paramount, we propose that Richard Lonmouth chose Robert in the Rebellion in order to effect that regime change it was earlier implied he supported. Remember that quite early on Rhaegar was well out of things and the Rebellion was technically against Aerys, aimed at removing an increasingly mad tyrant from power. Rhaegar’s eventual involvement– no doubt out of a sense of duty to his House and perhaps an effort to safeguard his children in King’s Landing– would play right into the themes of choice and the broken man that were identified earlier.

For the record it doesn’t seem like we’ll have to wait too long to put this theory to the test. Last we saw of the Riverlands in ADwD, one person who likely knew Richard Lonmouth was on a collision course with Lem Lemoncloak and is a strong candidate for a reveal. When Jaime Lannister resurfaces he may find himself in for a surprise reunion with someone from his past.

 

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I know there is a theory he is one of the sellwords Littlefinger takes on at the end of aDwD, Ser Morgarth, but I think that's a stretch. Instead, I believe he comes from someplace more familiar to us, from House Darry.

Brienne and her little group reach the Quiet Isle led by Septon Meribald. Interestingly, they get to the Quiet Isle by walking across the mud flats at the mouth of the Trident at low tide, following a complicated pattern of going one way, then doubling back, then going the wrong way, taking very careful steps to avoid being swallowed up by the mud.

When Brienne is brought to meet the Elder Brother, leader of the community on the Isle, she is surprised by what she sees before her:
 

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He could hardly be called elder for a start; whereas the brothers weeding in the garden had had the stooped shoulders and bent backs of old men, he stood straight and tall, and moved with the vigor of a man in the prime of his years. Nor did he have the gentle, kindly face she expected of a healer. His head was large and square, his eyes shrewd, his nose veined and red. Though he wore a tonsure, his scalp was as stubbly as his heavy jaw.

He looks more like a man made to break bones than to heal one, thought the Maid of Tarth, as the Elder Brother strode across the room to embrace Septon Meribald and pat Dog.

 

From this description the Elder Brother sounds like a man in his early or mid 40s, and in fact, he's 44. He's youthful and vigorous, and obviously a soldier in Brienne's eyes, which fact he later confirms.

And when he tells Brienne of all the manner of things that wash ashore at the Isle, two stand out, rubies and dead bodies. Darry supported the Targaryens, and it was Lord Darry who tore down the infamous black dragon sign from the Clanking Dragon inn and cast it in the Trident at the time of the Blackfyre rebellion. What better hint about the Elder Brother's identity than to make him the keeper of Rhaegar's rubies. And when he tells Brienne about the bodies washed up and enemies buried side by side, he names Starks and Lannisters, Blackwood and Bracken, and Frey and Darry. It's a strange thing to say when a Frey daughter was married to the last lord of Darry, but House Frey supported the Blackfyre side in the rebellion.

He has knowledge about the Stark girls that we assume he discovered from Sandor Clegane, who he insists is dead. Since he tells Brienne about his life as a knight, we might assume that he's protecting Sandor in sympathy with a fellow soldier damaged by war. But could it be because Sandor hates his brother Gregor so much, and Gregor burned the Darry lands in aGoT, as part of Tywin's plot to lure Ned Stark into the trap Beric Dondarrion fell into instead? And then returned to murder the last male Darry, a child of 8 who had ridden to support Robb Stark and who Robb allowed to return to Darry? Sandor notably has abandoned the Lannisters, who betrayed the Targaryens and who have taken over House Darry. Perhaps the Elder Brother has future plans for Sandor?

 

 

As conversation with Brienne continues, we come to see that this is a very educated and articulate soldier, who is also on top of the latest news from King's Landing, rather surprising for the leader of a religious settlement where silence is the order of the day.

The Elder Brother escorts Brienne over to the small huts where women visitors stay while on the Quiet Isle, and when Brienne asks him why he left off being a knight, he tells her the story of his life. Some of the important details:

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My father was a knight, and his before him. So were my brothers, every one. I was trained for battle since the day they deemed me old enough to hold a wooden sword. I saw my share of them, and did not disgrace myself. I had women too, and there I did disgrace myself, for some I took by force. There was a girl I wished to marry, the younger daughter of a petty lord, but I was my father's third born son and had neither land nor wealth to offer her...only a sword, a horse, a shield. All in all, I was a sad man."

She asks when things changed, and he answers:

When I died in the Battle of the Trident. I fought for Prince Rhaegar, though he never knew my name. I could not tell you why, save that the lord I served served a lord who served a lord who decided to support the dragon rather than the stag. Had he decided elsewise, I might have been on the other side of the river."

His horse is killed from under him, he takes an arrow, and he continues to fight while looking for a horse to catch, because without a horse he will not be a knight. But then gets struck down, waking up some time later naked, washed up on the shore of the Quiet Isle. He spends the next ten years in silence.

So why do I think he is from House Darry?

The first thing that caught my attention was the fact that he was a third son of a family of knights, an educated, eloquent third son. Many of the knights we see in Westeros, and even lords, can't even read, and need their maesters to read and write for them. Lord Darry at the time of Aerys II had four sons, three of whom died at the Trident. Elder Brother "died" at the Trident. House Darry before Robert's Rebellion was a prosperous house, one that would educate all its sons. In many houses, a third son would have gone to Oldtown to become a maester, but House Darry was famous for its knights, including an illustrious member of the Kingsguard and the master-at-arms at the Red Keep, Ser Willem Darry who took Viserys and Danaerys across the sea to Braavos.

He wanted to marry the daughter of a petty lord, a suitable match for a third son of higher rank than a petty lord, but if the daughter had no dowry to bring with her and he had no money (the sad state of affairs for third sons) it couldn't happen.

His age seems right as well. At 44 he would have been born in 256 or 257, making him around 27 at the Battle of the Trident, which matches his description as someone who had seen his share of battles, an experienced knight.

The description of why he fought for the Targaryens, serving a lord who served a lord who served a lord, may also fit. As a third son, he may have served his oldest brother, who served their father, who would have served House Tully. House Tully followed the stag, not the dragon. But as Targaryen supporters, they may have switched allegiance to Harrenhal. Or perhaps as a third son he joined one of the lesser houses as a knight, since there was no money for him in his own house. So he may have served a lord who served his brother who served his father, who chose the Targaryens. Another strong possibility, and one that I believe fits, is that the Elder Brother did not want to reveal to Brienne who he was, and disguised his heritage by adding an extra layer or two of lords to his description. After all, he lied to her about Sandor Clegane.

I also think the fact that he is holding Rhaegar's rubies to be very significant. While there is no confirmation that the rubies are Rhaegar's, logically speaking whose rubies could they otherwise be? Especially six rubies, which surely would have cost a princely sum. House Darry is a house Viserys believed will support the return of the Targaryens, and I am now expecting that the 7th ruby from Rhaegar's armor will show up and all 7 will be presented to fAegon.

And finally, the fact that the path across the Trident at low tide was so convoluted is also a hint that what the path led to, the Quiet Isle, holds a convoluted secret.
 

Thoughts?

@Fragile Bird

[Fragile Bird]

I absolutely love the idea Lem Lemoncloak is Richard Lonmouth. Thanks for tagging me!

It will be fascinating to see if GRRM gives us any answers to our questions. I have seen him talk about the fact he’s amazed how people will spin stories about minor characters, but when he plants so many clues and hints in his narrative I wonder which minor characters he’s talking about or if he’s just trying to be sly.

[Lady Rhodes]

17 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I’ve never been particularly fond of Cat myself.  I think we see her true inner ugliness come to the forefront during her resurrection.  Her actions towards Jon show that she can be particularly cruel and her motivation is jealous possessiveness.

I think she is a very complex character. Her motivation is "jealous possessiveness" in that she is hurt that, to her knowledge, her husband cheated on her and had another kid and he brought the kid home to live with them.  Yeah, that would become a sore subject.  Again, not at all Jon's fault and if she has forgiven Ned, she needs to suck it up and embrace Jon. I am not defending her treatment of Jon, which I think is abhorrent.  If she took one minute to actually get to know Jon, she would understand that he cares deeply for his siblings. But in the class and feudal system of the 7 Kingdoms, her point of view isn't really strange or different or odd.  Dorne is the exception to this rule.   And in this view, he is a direct threat to her children.  For all of her faults, Catelyn deeply loves her children.  As a mother myself, I can understand the motivation to ensure their well being. When examining it this way, I think a blanket categorization of "inner ugliness" is not accurate.  Everyone in this story has an inner ugliness, the "grey", that makes them problematic is some way. Martin did a good job at creating deeply flawed characters that mimic real people.

 

[Frey family reunion]

@TheLastWolf

I'm aware of both theories that you posted.  I thought the Lem = Lonmouth to be interesting for a while, but the more closely I read Lem the less likely I think he was a squire for Rhaegar Targaryen.  TGOHH asking for a kiss from him is a cute idea I suppose in creating an identity for Lem as the Knight of Kisses but I think that's about it.  But ultimately I think it quite unlikely that Longmouth being one of Rhaegar's closest confidants would have fought against him for Robert.  As for being a drinking buddy with Robert, perhaps.  But my suspicion is that this drinking contest may have been intentionally set up by Rhaegar to get Robert drunk that night.  Which is kind of mirrored by the drinking contest we see at the Red Wedding where the Freys try to get Smalljon drunk.  

As for Lem's wife and daughter, I think it's more probable that they died fairly recently in all of the fighting that forged the Brotherhood without Banners.  And if you look at one of the Houses and one of the regions most heavily affected by the fighting, we are told that the Mountain and his troops ravaged the lands of House Darry.  If Lem's wife and daughter died during this raid it would explain why Lem has such hatred for the Lannisters.  Remember how wroth Lem was when TGOHH told him about her vision of Riverrun being beset by a sea of lions.

And its fairly obvious that GRRM is setting up a conflict between the current House Darry, Ser Strongboar, vs the BWB and the Hound.  Lem being both a memeber of BWB and taking on the identity of the Hound is putting him in direct conflict with the current denizens of House Darry which now includes the last Darry daughter.

As for theorizing about Anguy's sly smile about Lem willing to eat the Tavern Wench's soup if it had dead flies in it, I think this theory gets a little carried away here.  I dont' think this is a reference to Lem formerly being "dead in the water".  Anguy is smiling because he knows that Lem is attracted to the Taven Wench and would be willing to eat anything she put in front of him.  Which is why the tavern wench changes the subject when Anguy brings up Lem and this is why Lem brings up his dream about the Tavern Wench the one that TGOHH tells him is dead.

Sometimes we get a bit too carried away with the Rhaegar saga and wish to attribute everything in the story to weave it with his alleged romance with Lyanna.  I think this is one of those instances.

Instead, GRRM loves making parallel storylines running throughout the books.  I think we're seeing one here.  And in this case Lem ( the bastard of Darry with the head of a dog) may be an intentional parallel to Jon Snow (the bastard of Winterfell who often shares the headspace of a wolf).

As for the Elder Brother, I already explained why he probably isn't a Darry.  His own description of his role in the war and why he was fighting seems to disqualify him from being from House Darry.  

Instead I gave the reasons why I think he may be from House Fossoway from New Barell.  Which means he probably fought for the Tyrells starting with the Battle at Ashford (a neighbor to the lands of House Fossoway) and was one of the troops that chased Robert to the Stoney Sept, before being rounded up and sent out to the Trident.

[zandru]

1 hour ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I think [Catelyn] is a very complex character.

Definitely! I've been impressed at how much good political and strategic sense Cat seems to have, when she's in her right mind.

It's only when she's in "Mommy Mode" that she gets singleminded and irrational. Like wanting to just forgive and forget the Lannister's killings and war-making, with no retribution or punishment, because "haven't enough died already?" And "It won't bring Ned back" so his killing was non-punishable? Letting known liar, Lannister, king-slayer, and troop commander Ser Jaime of the Kingsguard free, in the desperate hope that he'd return her daughters to her? That's truly cuckoo-bananas.

I can easily forgive the fiasco with taking Tyrion to the Eyrie: it was a great way to throw potential pursuers off the trail, and how was Cat to know her sister was now a few trenchers short of a banquet? Kidnapping Tyrion might have been a good move - had it not been inspired by Petyr Baelish's lies (and Varys's apparent agreement.)

This is where George RR excels: having good people doing things that seem reasonable, even smart - but leading to their ultimate doom.

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I think she is a very complex character. 

Agreed, I was being a bit tongue and cheek.  I still don't like her though, the "it should have been you" comment she made to Jon sealed the deal for me.

5 minutes ago, zandru said:

And "It won't bring Ned back" so his killing was non-punishable? Letting known liar, Lannister, king-slayer, and troop commander Ser Jaime of the Kingsguard free, in the desperate hope that he'd return her daughters to her? That's truly cuckoo-bananas.

I think it was an act out of desperation.  I truly think she was scared to death that Jaime was going to be the next Lannister killed, and I think she thought that would spell the death of her daughters.

[Lady Rhodes]

5 minutes ago, zandru said:

Definitely! I've been impressed at how much good political and strategic sense Cat seems to have, when she's in her right mind.

It's only when she's in "Mommy Mode" that she gets singleminded and irrational.

Thank you! I would argue, as a mother myself, that we are often irrational when it comes to our children. Probably some residual evolutionary trait to keep wolves and lions (haha!) away from our children.

[Lady Rhodes]

8 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I still don't like her though, the "it should have been you" comment she made to Jon sealed the deal for me.

You aren't wrong.  The one thing that I preferred in the TV version was during her conversation with Talisa where she was making a the prayer wheel (?) and she tells the story about Jon having the pox and she was praying by his bedside and felt awful for how she treated him and how she promised the gods she would love him and treat him as her own, but when he was healed she could keep her promise. She was asking herself if all of the horror that befalls her family is the result of her not loving a motherless child.  It showed so much development, reflection on her mistakes that I thought made the character more.  Alas, this is not textual canon, so irrelevant to our debate, but just an addition that I enjoyed.

10 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I think it was an act out of desperation.  I truly think she was scared to death that Jaime was going to be the next Lannister killed, and I think she thought that would spell the death of her daughters.

Agreed.

[Frey family reunion]

5 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

You aren't wrong.  The one thing that I preferred in the TV version was during her conversation with Talisa where she was making a the prayer wheel (?) and she tells the story about Jon having the pox and she was praying by his bedside and felt awful for how she treated him and how she promised the gods she would love him and treat him as her own, but when he was healed she could keep her promise. She was asking herself if all of the horror that befalls her family is the result of her not loving a motherless child.  It showed so much development, reflection on her mistakes that I thought made the character more.  Alas, this is not textual canon, so irrelevant to our debate, but just an addition that I enjoyed.

Yes she was much more sympathetic in the show.  I do think that GRRM has gone out of his way to set up the conflict between Cat and Jon in the books.  Even "recently" revisiting that conflict in ADWD when Jon goes into a berserker rage thinking back on the time that Robb told him that Lady Stark said Jon could never be the Lord of Winterfell because he was a bastard.

So perhaps this conflict will come to a head at some point.  And the only way it probably could at this point is if Jon is resurrected or revived and resume his plans to head to Winterfell, and if Lady Stoneheart finishes up her revenge against the Freys and heads to Winterferll herself with the BWB to seek vengeance on the Boltons.

[Lady Rhodes]

5 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Yes she was much more sympathetic in the show.  I do think that GRRM has gone out of his way to set up the conflict between Cat and Jon in the books.  Even "recently" revisiting that conflict in ADWD when Jon goes into a berserker rage thinking back on the time that Robb told him that Lady Stark said Jon could never be the Lord of Winterfell because he was a bastard.

So perhaps this conflict will come to a head at some point.  And the only way it probably could at this point is if Jon is resurrected or revived and resume his plans to head to Winterfell, and if Lady Stoneheart finishes up her revenge against the Freys and heads to Winterferll herself with the BWB to seek vengeance on the Boltons.

Hmm. You and I have very different takes on it.  I think when (because most likely it is when) Jon is resurrected (presumably by Melisandre) he and Catelyn are going to have a pivotal life experience shared by....a total of 3 people? I'm cautiously optimistic that they will join forces. As we have discussed, death changes these characters. If I am correct and your final motivations are sharpened, a desire to avenge Winterfell from the Boltons is a powerful motivator.

[Curled Finger]

On 7/15/2020 at 6:25 AM, Lady Rhodes said:

@Curled Finger Yep, he is listed! I agree, this shoe will drop at some point.

I agree that he has become disenchanted with the mission. Perhaps it is the sunk cost fallacy- he has already invested time, plus loyalty, to the brotherhood. He would no longer be welcome at court. Where else would he go?  The other option is that he is trying to check her or the remaining brotherhood's worst impulses, trying to prevent them from doing something truly heinous.

I completely agree. There is a lot going on that we don't realize.  I do think that it is possible that some of the group have splintered off, but I think that many of them are on "missions" so to speak. Perhaps there is a group looking for Arya in the Saltpans/Vale/Crownlands area, but as I explained in my initial post, I don't think that is likely. I don't think they know that it was Arya and I think their focus is the North.  Why do you think Anguy is at Riverrun? I had not heard that before.

 

You know I looked twice for Gendry because it looked like a complete list to me.  Time to get the prescription for glasses checked again.   Sorry for drawing attention to an omission you did not make.   

To the bold, I have spent the last day or so looking for my reference.  There is no actual reference only an interesting conversation from 5 years ago in a topic.   In summary, there are all the mentions of archers at Riverrun.   It isn't a stretch to assume Anguy is at Riverrun.   A thousand pardons.  I will try not to confuse perception with actuality for at least 5 more posts.  

[Hugorfonics]

4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Agreed, I was being a bit tongue and cheek.  I still don't like her though, the "it should have been you" comment she made to Jon sealed the deal for me.

I think it was an act out of desperation.  I truly think she was scared to death that Jaime was going to be the next Lannister killed, and I think she thought that would spell the death of her daughters.

Definitely off putting, I think since I immediately took a dislike to Ned, maybe I felt sympathy for his wife. Either way, I was very invested in both of their stories, doubled when Cat came back.

Facts. I think theres a large chance Jaime would have been murdered too

4 hours ago, zandru said:

Definitely! I've been impressed at how much good political and strategic sense Cat seems to have, when she's in her right mind.

Word. Her visualizing the WW was pretty cool, and she was pretty on point too when thinking of Renlys horrendous battle plans

Quote

How like his brother Robert he was, even in that . . . only Robert had always had Eddard Stark to temper his boldness with caution. Ned would surely have prevailed upon Robert to bring up his whole force, to encircle Stannis and besiege the besiegers. That choice Renly had denied himself in his headlong rush to come to grips with his brother. He had outdistanced his supply lines, left food and forage days behind with all his wagons and mules and oxen. He must come to battle soon, or starve.

 

4 hours ago, zandru said:

It's only when she's in "Mommy Mode" that she gets singleminded and irrational. Like wanting to just forgive and forget the Lannister's killings and war-making, with no retribution or punishment, because "haven't enough died already?" And "It won't bring Ned back" so his killing was non-punishable?

It's a little soft, sure. But, I mean, she was right. Warring on Lannister was not beneficial. Cat was ready to take an L. I think that showed wisdom and maturity (and a little softness)

4 hours ago, zandru said:

Letting known liar, Lannister, king-slayer, and troop commander Ser Jaime of the Kingsguard free, in the desperate hope that he'd return her daughters to her? That's truly cuckoo-bananas.

Whats he doing but malnourishing himself in the cells while batting his eyelashes at Karstark? 

Sansa is the north, thats worth a kingslayer or two.

[Lady Rhodes]

39 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Sorry for drawing attention to an omission you did not make.

All is well. We've all done it at some point, myself included!

40 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

To the bold, I have spent the last day or so looking for my reference.  There is no actual reference only an interesting conversation from 5 years ago in a topic.   In summary, there are all the mentions of archers at Riverrun.   It isn't a stretch to assume Anguy is at Riverrun.   A thousand pardons.  I will try not to confuse perception with actuality for at least 5 more posts. 

Again, no apology needed. I did the same thing in this same thread. It is so easy to do!

31 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I think since I immediately took a dislike to Ned

Out of curiosity, why?

31 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Facts. I think theres a large chance Jaime would have been murdered too

Oh, most definitely. It was not a matter of "if" but "when"

 

[Curled Finger]

3 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

All is well. We've all done it at some point, myself included!

Again, no apology needed. I did the same thing in this same thread. It is so easy to do!

 

You are very kind, Lady.  

[zandru]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

It's a little soft, sure. But, I mean, she was right. Warring on Lannister was not beneficial. Cat was ready to take an L. I think that showed wisdom and maturity (and a little softness)

Well, Catelyn would have just showed Tywin, Roose Bolton, and Walder Frey that there was no cost to making war, to mass slaughter at the dinner table, to treachery. Robb couldn't just say "Okay, fine" and walk back to Occupied Winterfell. At the very least, some kind of settlement had to be arranged to end the war, not total abdication.

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Whats [Jaime] doing but malnourishing himself in the cells while batting his eyelashes at Karstark? 

Sansa is the north, thats worth a kingslayer or two.

And that settlement would include the disposition of Ser Jaime of the Kingsguard, whom Tywin is all hot to make his heir, since Cersei is a woman, and also incompetent and temperamentally unsuited to rule Casterly Rock, and Tyrion is a misshapen little monkey demon (in Tywin's view; don't accuse me of dwarfophobia).

A settlement would also have a guarantee of the return of Sansa, probably some kind of mediated exchange of her and Jaime. I disagree with "Sansa is the north"; that sentence makes no sense to me at all.

The settlement need  also include territorial concessions, reparations, and the like. But in her Myopic Momminess, Catelyn would skip all of that. She was under a lot of stress, with Ned dead, her father also, two of her sons murdered by Theon, and Robb going out into battle. It's too bad she didn't  have a confidante, someone who would give good council, recognize how distraught she was, and steer her towards other options.