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Selyse Baratheon, Mover and Shaker


Curled Finger

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Born of truly ancient Westerosi settlers, blood of Floris the Fox, Selyse Baratheon hails from House Florent.  House Florent holds Brightwater Keep in the Reach.  Sword to House Tyrell, the Florents have an old money feel to them. Thin, (think emaciated, devoid of joy or hope or happiness), large-eared and famously mustachioed, Selyse’s appearance seems to match her personality. Jon describes her as homely. Selyse is a cold and bitter woman.  In fairness, how upbeat could anyone stay in Stannis’ company on Dragonstone?  Bleak and dreary no matter where you go with that.  Selyse isn’t well-liked. Because she really is a creepy woman.  Selyse is mean spirited, fully supporting the burning of her bastard nephew-cousin Edric Storm and telling Jon to “Let them die” about the Wildlings stuck at Hardhome.  This is a scary person and worse, a true believer.  She plays queen as she imagined as a child or saw from afar from time to time.  She wasn’t raised to be grand or great and she thinks she can pull this off because her god is better than everyone else’s god.  She is fiercely dedicated to R’hllor, following Azor Ahai all over Westeros, losing her own family seat as well as the seats of many who choose to fall in line behind Stannis.  

As Queen, Selyse understands that among her many jobs it is incumbent upon her to arrange political alliances between her loyal people and Stannis’ conquered people. That amounts to the Wildlings who have already surrendered to Jon Snow.  Selyse studiously and vehemently applies some weird Southron code of reward in these marriages.  

Gerrick Kingsblood (Oh come on, you know he just took that name 15 minutes ago) will be so proud to prance about in his fancy king’s clothes at all 3 of his daughters’ weddings.  These are Wildlings having their 1st real taste of being conquered or assimilated or something.  Gerrick is my choice for smartest person in the room.  He got new clothes.  He wins.   

Selyse has arranged to reward 4 of her most trusted queens men with really primo super great marriages.  3 of these knights (Ser Axell Florent, Ser Brus Buckler and Ser Malegorn of Redpool) will marry 3 of Gerrick Kingsblood’s red-haired daughters.  This amounted to some real losers getting young dirt poor wives.   The daughters get 3 losers. Perhaps they can learn to dance?  No less than 2 deeply traditional marital customs tossed to the wind.   They’re all getting fire hitched, by R’hllor.  Score Selyse!  Like I said, Gerrick really is the winner.  Seriously, how do these match ups benefit anyone involved? 

A particularly obnoxious member of Selyse’s queens men is Ser Patrek of Kings Mountain.  Yah, that guy.  He thought he would make a better match for Alys Karstark that THENN Sigorn.  Yah, Jon, what were you thinking?   Selyse thought it would be a great idea and gave her seal of approval for Ser Patrek to marry Val…even after Jon told them both a man proves his strength to a free woman by stealing her.   We all know how that ended, so maybe Val won.  

In the downtime it’s fun to reacquaint with some minor and less characters and their plots all rarely finding limelight.  Selyse was so sad to learn more about.  I can’t say who is more insane, Selyse Baratheon or Lysa Tully, but they are clearly broken women.  I wasn’t able to dig up anything really juicy other than her self loathing born of a once great, once very powerful family wed to madness.   Selyse Baratheon is a brilliant horror character in this tale and I heartily recommend her story to anyone interested in the struggle of a person who isn’t raised to rule, but tries because she thinks she can.   Or maybe it’s just her duty.
 

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8 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Born of truly ancient Westerosi settlers, blood of Floris the Fox, Selyse Baratheon hails from House Florent.  House Florent holds Brightwater Keep in the Reach.  Sword to House Tyrell, the Florents have an old money feel to them. Thin, (think emaciated, devoid of joy or hope or happiness), large-eared and famously mustachioed, Selyse’s appearance seems to match her personality. Jon describes her as homely. Selyse is a cold and bitter woman.  In fairness, how upbeat could anyone stay in Stannis’ company on Dragonstone?  Bleak and dreary no matter where you go with that.  Selyse isn’t well-liked. Because she really is a creepy woman.  Selyse is mean spirited, fully supporting the burning of her bastard nephew-cousin Edric Storm and telling Jon to “Let them die” about the Wildlings stuck at Hardhome.  This is a scary person and worse, a true believer.  She plays queen as she imagined as a child or saw from afar from time to time.  She wasn’t raised to be grand or great and she thinks she can pull this off because her god is better than everyone else’s god.  She is fiercely dedicated to R’hllor, following Azor Ahai all over Westeros, losing her own family seat as well as the seats of many who choose to fall in line behind Stannis.  

As Queen, Selyse understands that among her many jobs it is incumbent upon her to arrange political alliances between her loyal people and Stannis’ conquered people. That amounts to the Wildlings who have already surrendered to Jon Snow.  Selyse studiously and vehemently applies some weird Southron code of reward in these marriages.  

Gerrick Kingsblood (Oh come on, you know he just took that name 15 minutes ago) will be so proud to prance about in his fancy king’s clothes at all 3 of his daughters’ weddings.  These are Wildlings having their 1st real taste of being conquered or assimilated or something.  Gerrick is my choice for smartest person in the room.  He got new clothes.  He wins.   

Selyse has arranged to reward 4 of her most trusted queens men with really primo super great marriages.  3 of these knights (Ser Axell Florent, Ser Brus Buckler and Ser Malegorn of Redpool) will marry 3 of Gerrick Kingsblood’s red-haired daughters.  This amounted to some real losers getting young dirt poor wives.   The daughters get 3 losers. Perhaps they can learn to dance?  No less than 2 deeply traditional marital customs tossed to the wind.   They’re all getting fire hitched, by R’hllor.  Score Selyse!  Like I said, Gerrick really is the winner.  Seriously, how do these match ups benefit anyone involved? 

A particularly obnoxious member of Selyse’s queens men is Ser Patrek of Kings Mountain.  Yah, that guy.  He thought he would make a better match for Alys Karstark that THENN Sigorn.  Yah, Jon, what were you thinking?   Selyse thought it would be a great idea and gave her seal of approval for Ser Patrek to marry Val…even after Jon told them both a man proves his strength to a free woman by stealing her.   We all know how that ended, so maybe Val won.  

In the downtime it’s fun to reacquaint with some minor and less characters and their plots all rarely finding limelight.  Selyse was so sad to learn more about.  I can’t say who is more insane, Selyse Baratheon or Lysa Tully, but they are clearly broken women.  I wasn’t able to dig up anything really juicy other than her self loathing born of a once great, once very powerful family wed to madness.   Selyse Baratheon is a brilliant horror character in this tale and I heartily recommend her story to anyone interested in the struggle of a person who isn’t raised to rule, but tries because she thinks she can.   Or maybe it’s just her duty.
 

Great post as ever CF! Everything that can be said has been said. This is more of a character analysis than a topc/thread or post which needs a reply.

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12 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

snip

Good character analysis.

To my mind, Selyse as Queen of the Seven Kingdoms is more distressing to House Tyrell (by which I mean Olenna, since Mace is a clueless boob) than Stannis as King. As queen, Selyse will have tremendous influence over marriages throughout the 7K, just as Queen Alysanne had in her day. The Florents have always resented losing Highgarden to those upjumped stewards, and the Tyrells seem to have made it a point not to marry their children to Florents as opposed to Redwynes, Hightowers, Fossoways, etc.

With Selyse as queen, however, I think the fear is very real that she will use her position to insert her house into the Tyrell sphere, and if she's really clever, and lucky, maybe one day sitting a Florent on the high seat in Highgarden.

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1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Good character analysis.

To my mind, Selyse as Queen of the Seven Kingdoms is more distressing to House Tyrell (by which I mean Olenna, since Mace is a clueless boob) than Stannis as King. As queen, Selyse will have tremendous influence over marriages throughout the 7K, just as Queen Alysanne had in her day. The Florents have always resented losing Highgarden to those upjumped stewards, and the Tyrells seem to have made it a point not to marry their children to Florents as opposed to Redwynes, Hightowers, Fossoways, etc.

With Selyse as queen, however, I think the fear is very real that she will use her position to insert her house into the Tyrell sphere, and if she's really clever, and lucky, maybe one day sitting a Florent on the high seat in Highgarden.

Thank you very much for your kind words.   Selyse really is an interesting read.  In research I learned how grand the Florents were over a very long time, thousands of years.  You've obviously read this history, but for those who maybe haven't, House Florent was a real contender against House Gardner for Kings of the Reach.  Lesser houses bragged about securing marriages into House Florent.   When the Tyrells were named Lords over the Reach following Aegon's conquest, no one was more outraged than House Florent.   They stood firmly on their magical blood being the qualifier.  While we may think this is silly, the idea of King's Blood is frighteningly prominent and motivating to the ancient houses in Westeros.   I surely wouldn't want to be a Tyrell in power when all hell breaks loose.  

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5 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Great post as ever CF! Everything that can be said has been said. This is more of a character analysis than a topc/thread or post which needs a reply.

I am hoping to solicit some alternate views on Selyse.   I want to feel sorry for her and have all the elements for pity stew except the sympathy. 

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6 hours ago, Orm said:

Definitely Lysa........Selyse is a fanatic but with good/real reason.......

Some day someone will compare the women side by side and trait by trait.  I tried to find the reasons for Selyse's fanaticism but this is a subtle thing I think, not to be gleaned from the 1st dig.  I am thinking Mel likely spotted her rube and has been the force behind Selyse since (Mel's) rising to power.  The exchanges between them reveal a desperate and sad willingness to be manipulated; to be what Melisandre believes she is.  This is really disturbing to read.      

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Much as I dislike Selyse, she must be as unhappy in a sexless, cold marriage with a child of the “wrong“  gender, health and disposition. Stannis was never going to be a wonderful spouse, and she does not have qualities to ameliorate the situation. She was ripe for religious fanaticism. She also doesn’t have the horses to see through Melisandre. There are a number of examples in history of fanaticism by spouse.

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14 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

House Florent was a real contender against House Gardner for Kings of the Reach.  ...  When the Tyrells were named Lords over the Reach following Aegon's conquest, no one was more outraged than House Florent. 

I think this is the key to Selyse's role: there is an ongoing rivalry between the Tyrells and the Florents as heirs of Garth Greenhands. She wants the Florents to be recognized and put in charge of Highgarden. Better yet, she would like Stannis to occupy the Iron Throne so she can reorder all of the power in the seven kingdoms. (Her arranged marriage alliances with Gerrick Kingsblood, founder of House Redbeard, is symbolic of stoking her ambitions with king's blood and beards - see below.)

As you point out, however, Selyse doesn't seem to mind throwing other Florents under the bus. We do not hear that she was outraged when her uncle Alester Florent, head of House Florent, is sacrificed to R'hllor and she has no problem if Melisandre wants Edric Storm's life so that his king's blood can advance the fortunes of Stannis. Tywin and Lord Walder Frey use family members as sacrifices. Tywin appears to resent when other people kill Lannisters, however. Maybe Selyse's "Game of Thrones" gameplay has to be taken in context with others who use family members as expendable pawn game pieces.

I suspect that the famous mustache hair is symbolic of Selyse having been reborn and of her rising strength: we see Arya, Dany and Cersei get haircuts or be shaved or have their hair burned off but they are born anew as their hair grows out again. Selyse doesn't undergo the difficult rebirth (as far as we know) but she does have this sprouting hair. In her case, that hair just isn't quite right. Is GRRM telling us that Selyse is like a man?

Gerrick Kingsblood is the founder of House Redbeard and he claims descent from a famous wildling king named Raymun Redbeard, although this is disputed by Tormund. Note that a member of the Brotherhood Without Banners is named Greenbeard and that Dany has a passionate affair with Daario, who has strange, three-pronged blue beard. It would not surprise me if we are seeing the three forks of the Trident represented in beards.

If Selyse does have a rebirth, it may be her religious conversion to the Lord of Light? Or her marriage to Stannis?

The other important point about Selyse is that her daughter is made of stone - she suffers from greyscale. I'm not sure about the Lysa / Selyse comparison, but the statue of the weeping Alyssa Arryn at the Eyrie is linked to Catelyn who later becomes Lady Stoneheart. Does it matter that the statue is at Lysa's home? Another stone woman we meet early in the books: the image of Lyanna Stark in the Winterfell crypt. If the Alyssa statue and the Lyanna statue are stone women intended to be compared to Shireen, does that tell us anything about Selyse?

Lysa Arryn went from a river kingdom to a weirwood throne to flying (out the Moon Door). I don't think she is a stone woman. I don't pick up any clues that Selyse is a stone woman, either. But maybe the pairing of Selyse and Shireen tells us that they bring complementary strengths to the household of Stannis and his quest for the Iron Throne.

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I think Martin is trying to show us how Selyse is so unappealing that Stannis only has one heir, despite his vigor.

Sure, there are other layers of imagery. Selyse has a stony character, especially if she ends up culpable in Shireens death! Yikes.

There is a character in War and Peace with hair on her lip. Can’t recall if it is Sonya, the one who remains unmarried? Still that weird detail remains long after I have forgotten much of the book, so perhaps it was appropriated by Martin.

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1 hour ago, HoodedCrow said:

There is a character in War and Peace with hair on her lip. Can’t recall if it is Sonya, the one who remains unmarried? Still that weird detail remains long after I have forgotten much of the book, so perhaps it was appropriated by Martin.

I remember! Not Sonya, but the little princess with the downy lip. I loved that detail, because she was charming and popular, and men tried to flirt with her even when she was pregnant. Made the Russians look so much less neurotic than westerners. And then I saw another translation which was more sour in every detail, and it was the princess with the moustache. [Sigh...]

tldr: War and Peace probably not the inspiration for Selyse.

ETA

Sonya was a girl like a pretty kitten, growing to be a beautiful little cat. Thanks for reminding me.... I don't suppose I'll read War & Peace again.

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1 hour ago, Seams said:

I think this is the key to Selyse's role: there is an ongoing rivalry between the Tyrells and the Florents as heirs of Garth Greenhands. She wants the Florents to be recognized and put in charge of Highgarden. Better yet, she would like Stannis to occupy the Iron Throne so she can reorder all of the power in the seven kingdoms. (Her arranged marriage alliances with Gerrick Kingsblood, founder of House Redbeard, is symbolic of stoking her ambitions with king's blood and beards - see below.)

As you point out, however, Selyse doesn't seem to mind throwing other Florents under the bus. We do not hear that she was outraged when her uncle Alester Florent, head of House Florent, is sacrificed to R'hllor and she has no problem if Melisandre wants Edric Storm's life so that his king's blood can advance the fortunes of Stannis. Tywin and Lord Walder Frey use family members as sacrifices. Tywin appears to resent when other people kill Lannisters, however. Maybe Selyse's "Game of Thrones" gameplay has to be taken in context with others who use family members as expendable pawn game pieces.

I suspect that the famous mustache hair is symbolic of Selyse having been reborn and of her rising strength: we see Arya, Dany and Cersei get haircuts or be shaved or have their hair burned off but they are born anew as their hair grows out again. Selyse doesn't undergo the difficult rebirth (as far as we know) but she does have this sprouting hair. In her case, that hair just isn't quite right. Is GRRM telling us that Selyse is like a man?

Gerrick Kingsblood is the founder of House Redbeard and he claims descent from a famous wildling king named Raymun Redbeard, although this is disputed by Tormund. Note that a member of the Brotherhood Without Banners is named Greenbeard and that Dany has a passionate affair with Daario, who has strange, three-pronged blue beard. It would not surprise me if we are seeing the three forks of the Trident represented in beards.

If Selyse does have a rebirth, it may be her religious conversion to the Lord of Light? Or her marriage to Stannis?

The other important point about Selyse is that her daughter is made of stone - she suffers from greyscale. I'm not sure about the Lysa / Selyse comparison, but the statue of the weeping Alyssa Arryn at the Eyrie is linked to Catelyn who later becomes Lady Stoneheart. Does it matter that the statue is at Lysa's home? Another stone woman we meet early in the books: the image of Lyanna Stark in the Winterfell crypt. If the Alyssa statue and the Lyanna statue are stone women intended to be compared to Shireen, does that tell us anything about Selyse?

Lysa Arryn went from a river kingdom to a weirwood throne to flying (out the Moon Door). I don't think she is a stone woman. I don't pick up any clues that Selyse is a stone woman, either. But maybe the pairing of Selyse and Shireen tells us that they bring complementary strengths to the household of Stannis and his quest for the Iron Throne.

Thanks Seams, much to chew on in your analysis.  I'm very glad you brought up the uncle burning.  I left it out on purpose because it put Selyse over the top of how I was trying to portray her.   She's not a nice person and is probably insane.  I believe her rebirth, if she had any life previously, was in conversion to the faith of R'hllor.   This appears to be the only thing she takes any pleasure in.  Not unlike Clayton Suggs, curiously enough, in that this burning of people really seems to appeal to a killer dwelling inside her.   More than Ser Suggs, it's disturbing to me to see this sort of visceral love of killing people in a seemingly gentle woman.   It's obscene, really. 

You touched on House Redbeard and I actually follow the line of connection between all your beards!   I am getting better, maybe!  @Springwatchreplied in another topic yesterday using the term winter's ladies and i find your mention of stone women intriguing.   

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1 hour ago, GoldenGail3 said:

I think Stannis would be a happier person if he didn’t marry Selyse..

I thought that too.  In this here little research project I am reminded that Stannis and his entire retinue are broke and homeless.   There is a fierce desperation in what Stannis is doing in the North so obvious in the meager marriage alliances Selyse makes with complete confidence.   They are both doing their absolute best for this miserable mission.  So having dug a little deeper I am thinking it is Selyse who may have been a happier person had she married someone else.   

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1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

Cherish her - she's the Light of the North.

For the life of me I could not get that title into the OP and believe me I tried.   It's good to see you here as I owe you a debt of thanks for this research.  You posted in another topic about comparing Winter Ladies and weddings.   I was composing a DM to you suggesting that you take a look at all the current match ups in the North.  Before I knew it, this was researched and ready to post.  So thank you very much for inspiring this research.   I enjoyed this more than I have enjoyed a lot of things recently.   I do hope you will get busy with your Winter Ladies topic so I can read it!  

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8 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

For the life of me I could not get that title into the OP and believe me I tried.   It's good to see you here as I owe you a debt of thanks for this research.  You posted in another topic about comparing Winter Ladies and weddings.   I was composing a DM to you suggesting that you take a look at all the current match ups in the North.  Before I knew it, this was researched and ready to post.  So thank you very much for inspiring this research.   I enjoyed this more than I have enjoyed a lot of things recently.   I do hope you will get busy with your Winter Ladies topic so I can read it!  

Sounds great! And I must turn back to my books....

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1 hour ago, HoodedCrow said:

I think Martin is trying to show us how Selyse is so unappealing that Stannis only has one heir, despite his vigor.

Sure, there are other layers of imagery. Selyse has a stony character, especially if she ends up culpable in Shireens death! Yikes.

There is a character in War and Peace with hair on her lip. Can’t recall if it is Sonya, the one who remains unmarried? Still that weird detail remains long after I have forgotten much of the book, so perhaps it was appropriated by Martin.

I have to agree with you that Selyse is written to be despised.   GRRM does not like this woman.  I will leave it to smarter people to really pin down Selyse's place among queens in ASOIAF.   As posted somewhere above, I think Stannis had a huge role in crushing what spirit Selyse may have had before.  Their inability to produce a male heir destabilizes both of them.  In that this really is the only expectation anyone has of a wife, Selyse must feel completely inadequate.  Stannis doesn't seem to blame her.   I wouldn't categorize that as kindness, but it sure isn't the Stannis I thought I knew.   He doesn't love her, but he does do his duty by her and she fails him and yet he continues to try.   That puts a really sweet, maybe compassionate spin on Stannis that never occurred to me before.   To be fair, man or woman or both could be responsible for the lack of further heirs.   I'm not convinced that fathering a shadow baby = Stannis' Garth Greenhands like fertility.  

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2 hours ago, HoodedCrow said:

Much as I dislike Selyse, she must be as unhappy in a sexless, cold marriage with a child of the “wrong“  gender, health and disposition. Stannis was never going to be a wonderful spouse, and she does not have qualities to ameliorate the situation. She was ripe for religious fanaticism. She also doesn’t have the horses to see through Melisandre. There are a number of examples in history of fanaticism by spouse.

Not sure how I missed this.  You captured the essence of the OP in a concise and well-stated way.  Thankee, Sai. 

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