Symbolism 101: An Introduction to Symbols in ASOIAF

[Curled Finger]

27 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

It's typically been thought of as a reference to female genitalia.  Which kind of makes it ironic that Renly brings it up.  But of course if GRRM is using this double entendre it does make sense in a way.  Renly is showing off the power of Highgarden.  The power which he obtained by marrying Margaery and thus having to eat her, umm, peach.

I think this is a bit of mockery here.  Renly, though gay, still finds the peach/vagina delicious because of the power it brings him, the power of Highgarden.  

Stannis who is probably not much of a peach eater himself takes offense and tries to puzzle out the meaning.  Interestingly enough, Stannis himself may partake in a bit of the peach with Melisandre, creating the Shadow Assassin that kills Renly and brings Highgardens army to him.

I'm reading your post and thinking, wow, this is fascinating.  I wonder if any of us drew conclusions of this nature before we began dissecting ASOIAF!  Really good stuff, Man! 

[Springwatch]

4 hours ago, Seams said:

If weapons of mass destruction are shaped like fruit, how can a peach represent, well, peace?

Renly also points out that his army is bigger just before offering Stannis a peach.

My best guess is that this is another case where GRRM is telling us that balance of opposing forces is necessary. He sets up his own unique pairs of contrasting symbols throughout ASOIAF: shaggy and sharp, bitter and sweet, smiler and slayer, shadow and rainbow, ice and fire, giant and dwarf, blood and water, iron and silk. I suspect that the characters who can strike a balance between these contrasting forces are able to thrive on some level. Even though Robert strikes the reader as a washed-up warrior who has deteriorated into a life of indulgence, the larger point may be that he was able to summon the strength, skill and strategy for combat when he needed it and he also excels at procreation when he chooses that path.

Love the wordplay in peaceful peaches. The sweet golden fruit reminds me of sweet arbor gold, the wine of choice when playing the game of thrones by non-violent means (peaceful, but not much sign of love in any case). Renly still means to win the throne from Stannis, but he has the choice of paying the gold price or the iron price (the contrasting forces) - and by nature he will always prefer the gold price.

[Seams]

The Smiler or the Slayer?

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The brusque dismissal did not sit well with Justin Massey, but he had no choice but to smile and withdraw. Horpe followed him out, after giving Jon a measured look. Clayton Suggs drained his cup dry and muttered something to Harwood Fell that made the younger man laugh. Boy was part of it. Suggs was an upjumped hedge knight, as crude as he was strong. The last man to take his leave was Rattleshirt. At the door, he gave Jon a mocking bow, grinning through a mouthful of brown and broken teeth.

All of you did not seem to include Lady Melisandre. The king's red shadow. Stannis called to Devan for more lemon water. When his cup was filled the king drank, and said, "Horpe and Massey aspire to your father's seat. Massey wants the wildling princess too. He once served my brother Robert as squire and acquired his appetite for female flesh. Horpe will take Val to wife if I command it, but it is battle he lusts for. As a squire he dreamed of a white cloak, but Cersei Lannister spoke against him and Robert passed him over. Perhaps rightly. Ser Richard is too fond of killing. Which would you have as Lord of Winterfell, Snow? The smiler or the slayer?" (ADwD, Jon IV)

GRRM often gives us pairs of what seem to be opposites or, at least, alternatives: fire and ice, shaggy and sharp, bitter and sweet, blood and water, iron and silk, shadow and rainbow, etc. In the excerpt cited, Stannis appears to be offering Jon Snow the chance to pick a new Lord for Winterfell: Justin Massey (a smiler) or Richard Horpe (a slayer).

This is the only place in the series where the two words are presented as a pair of alternatives. That is not unusual in GRRM's set-up for symbolic motifs - the "shaggy / sharp" pairing is noted by Bran when he contemplates the bearded and clean-shaven stone carvings of Stark lords and kings in the Winterfell crypt. Many characters throughout the novels are described as having sharp faces or shaggy features, but there is only one clue that these details are uniquely paired or juxtaposed.

Similarly, although Massey and Horpe are paired in the scene with Stannis and Jon Snow, we have other characters who are smilers and slayers.

• Notably, Theon Greyjoy finds everything amusing and has a cocky smile. Theon has a horse he named Smiler, purchased from the Ironborn Lord Botley with the requirement that Theon take on Wex Pyke as his squire as part of the deal.
• Samwell Tarly is nicknamed "Slayer" after he defeats an Other using a dragonglass blade.
• Ser Godry Farring, is part of the circle of devout red god worshippers / Queen's Men with Massey and Horpe. He is nicknamed Godry the Giantslayer after killing and beheading a fleeing giant in the battle beneath the Wall.
• Jaime Lannister is known as the Kingslayer.
• Tyrion Lannister comes to be known as a kinslayer.
• The Karstarks accuse Robb Stark of being a kinslayer.

And what about possible wordplay clues, with House Bolton famous for removing the skin layer from their enemies? Theon the smiler loses a number of skin layers to the flencing knife of Ramsay Bolton.

And then there are passages like this:

Quote

Needle was Robb and Bran and Rickon, her mother and her father, even Sansa. Needle was Winterfell's grey walls, and the laughter of its people. Needle was the summer snows, Old Nan's stories, the heart tree with its red leaves and scary face, the warm earthy smell of the glass gardens, the sound of the north wind rattling the shutters of her room. Needle was Jon Snow's smile. He used to mess my hair and call me "little sister," she remembered, and suddenly there were tears in her eyes. (AFfC, Arya II)

So what do you think of the smiler / slayer symbolism? What is GRRM trying to tell us?

I have a few ideas and I want to throw out one tangled set of clues that may help us to sort out the motif.

Godry Farring's nickname may be a key: "Godry the Giantslayer" offers some tantalizing anagrams that contain the word "Targaryen." Like the late Castle Black smith, Donal Noye, Godry has a niello brooch and he battles a giant - Noye and his giant killed each other in the tunnel beneath the Wall; Godry stabs his giant in the back. Maybe we will cover giant symbolism another day, but I suspect they may symbolize Targaryens.

Godry also drags "Mance Rayder" (actually Rattleshirt) to the cage where Melisandre burns him as a sacrifice to R'hllor. This starts to get complex, and you can take it or leave it, but Mance Rayder is often interpreted as a symbolic Rhaegar figure in Jon Snow's arc. Godry believes he is helping to kill Mance Rayder. Recall that Donal Noye was the smith at Storm's End before he joined the Night's Watch after losing an arm. Noye made the warhammer that Robert Baratheon used to kill Rhaegar Targaryen.

Godry is a close buddy of Richard Horpe, the guy that Stannis characterizes as a slayer (because of his fondness for war). In the battle beneath the Wall, it appears that Horpe killed Dormund, the son of Tormund Giantsbane. (Tormund identified his sigil - three death's head moths.) Earlier in the novels, Dormund had joined in with others in his family to sing along with Ygritte when she sang "I am the Last of the Giants" for Jon Snow.

The tall Night's Watch brother Small Paul is wighted after dying in combat with one of the Others. Sam Tarly tries to kill him with his dragonglass but the blade is ineffective. He instead uses a flaming log to attack Small Paul and this is effective in stopping and "killing" the wighted Small Paul. Is Small Paul a kind of giant? Are there different kinds of slayers, some who use obsidian or blades, and others who use fire?

One more giant-related thought: Jon Snow is worried that Stannis will try to force Val to marry Massey or Horpe. When another of the Queen's Men, Ser Patrek of King's Mountain, tries to get close to Val, he is brutally killed by the giant known as Wun Wun.

[Seams]

That last one may have been too much of a deep dive. Let's try this topic, spinning off a tangent from a recent thread about Robb's will. I asked whether Jon Snow might also have a will, as he asks Tyrion to deliver instructions to his siblings at Winterfell, including (joking) direction to Robb that he melt down his own sword and take up sewing with Arya and Sansa. Isobel Harper pointed out this passage from Arya:

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"I ruined that gown that Lady Smallwood gave me, and I don't sew so good." She chewed her lip. "I don't sew very well, I mean. Septa Mordane used to say I had a blacksmith's hands."

 

Gendry hooted. "Those soft little things?" he called out. "You couldn't even hold a hammer."

Symbolic Smiths

Quote

 

Excellent point. It seems significant that Donal Noye lost an arm (but somehow still managed to be a blacksmith). Here we see Arya talking about having a blacksmith's hands. We know that Septa Mordane meant that Arya was bad at sewing, but we also know that some characters in ASOIAF take off other people's finger's and hands: Joffrey threatening a singer, Stannis punishing the smuggler Davos (who loses his finger bones in the Blackwater), Ilyrio Mppatis keeping the hands of his dead wife, Vargo Hoat's men maiming Jaime Lannister.

There should probably be a thread in this forum to discuss symbolic smiths among the characters. For instance, does Khal Drogo become a symbolic smith when he melts gold to make a crown for Dany's brother Viserys? What does it mean that there is an inn called the Broken Anvil in King's Landing? The Iron Throne was made with dragon fire. Does that mean that dragons are also smiths? Aside from making things out of metal, what roles do smiths play in the story? Donal Noye has a key scene in teaching Jon to be kind and helpful to his Night's Watch brothers. Tobho Mott "raises" Gendry. Why is it relevant that Robb's crown is made by the smith at Riverrun?

 

Let's play with this before we try to pin down an answer.

Does anyone have a question about, or a favorite reference to, smiths?

I think there may be an SSM somewhere where GRRM explains that smiths represent all people who make things.

When Catelyn prays to the new gods, she asks the Smith to protect Bran.

Is there a connection between smiths and mints? The Manderlys offer to mint coins for King Robb Stark. Littlefinger is associated with chewing mint (the plant) and with being the Master of Coins.

[kissdbyfire]

8 minutes ago, Seams said:

I think there may be an SSM somewhere where GRRM explains that smiths represent all people who make things.

I don’t remember reading this SSM, but you reminded me of this passage.

AFfC, Brienne V
 

“One god with seven aspects. That’s so, my lady, and you are right to point it out, but the mystery of the Seven Who Are One is not easy for simple folk to grasp, and I am nothing if not simple, so I speak of seven gods.” Meribald turned back to Podrick. “I have never known a boy who did not love the Warrior. I am old, though, and being old, I love the Smith. Without his labor, what would the Warrior defend? Every town has a smith, and every castle. They make the plows we need to plant our crops, the nails we use to build our ships, iron shoes to save the hooves of our faithful horses, the bright swords of our lords. No one could doubt the value of a smith, and so we name one of the Seven in his honor, but we might as easily have called him the Farmer or the Fisherman, the Carpenter or the Cobbler. What he works at makes no matter. What matters is, he works. The Father rules, the Warrior fights, the Smith labors, and together they perform all that is rightful for a man. Just as the Smith is one aspect of the godhead, the Cobbler is one aspect of the Smith. It was he who heard my prayer and healed my feet.”

 

[Seams]

6 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I don’t remember reading this SSM, but you reminded me of this passage.

AFfC, Brienne V
 

“One god with seven aspects. That’s so, my lady, and you are right to point it out, but the mystery of the Seven Who Are One is not easy for simple folk to grasp, and I am nothing if not simple, so I speak of seven gods.” Meribald turned back to Podrick. “I have never known a boy who did not love the Warrior. I am old, though, and being old, I love the Smith. Without his labor, what would the Warrior defend? Every town has a smith, and every castle. They make the plows we need to plant our crops, the nails we use to build our ships, iron shoes to save the hooves of our faithful horses, the bright swords of our lords. No one could doubt the value of a smith, and so we name one of the Seven in his honor, but we might as easily have called him the Farmer or the Fisherman, the Carpenter or the Cobbler. What he works at makes no matter. What matters is, he works. The Father rules, the Warrior fights, the Smith labors, and together they perform all that is rightful for a man. Just as the Smith is one aspect of the godhead, the Cobbler is one aspect of the Smith. It was he who heard my prayer and healed my feet.”

I bet that's what I was remembering. Thanks for providing the citation.

[Aebram]

On 7/14/2020 at 3:54 PM, zandru said:

Well, we all know that oranges are a symbol and harbinger of death.

Not all of us; sorry, I must have missed that.  Can we have some evidence for this  please? 

Thanks --

[Lady Dacey]

On 7/16/2020 at 4:06 PM, Curled Finger said:

What does this say about Gendry?  To me I think it points to Gendry's sense of duty overwhelming all other considerations.  He's not just a dumb self absorbed teenager.  Premature to be sure, but I also wonder if Gendry's presence on this list doesn't point to some great failure or betrayal or disappointment or futility in his efforts somewhere down the road.  Ok, I admit I am being a little sappy here wondering if his sense of duty to Arya specifically will be his downfall.   Wasn't going to admit that, but there you have it!  

So glad you admitted it!! You got me thinking. I can see that happening, I really can. 

[Lady Dacey]

On 8/22/2020 at 11:40 AM, kissdbyfire said:

I don’t remember reading this SSM, but you reminded me of this passage.

AFfC, Brienne V
 

“One god with seven aspects. That’s so, my lady, and you are right to point it out, but the mystery of the Seven Who Are One is not easy for simple folk to grasp, and I am nothing if not simple, so I speak of seven gods.” Meribald turned back to Podrick. “I have never known a boy who did not love the Warrior. I am old, though, and being old, I love the Smith. Without his labor, what would the Warrior defend? Every town has a smith, and every castle. They make the plows we need to plant our crops, the nails we use to build our ships, iron shoes to save the hooves of our faithful horses, the bright swords of our lords. No one could doubt the value of a smith, and so we name one of the Seven in his honor, but we might as easily have called him the Farmer or the Fisherman, the Carpenter or the Cobbler. What he works at makes no matter. What matters is, he works. The Father rules, the Warrior fights, the Smith labors, and together they perform all that is rightful for a man. Just as the Smith is one aspect of the godhead, the Cobbler is one aspect of the Smith. It was he who heard my prayer and healed my feet.”

 

I'm thinking of the many smith-warriors we meet in asoiaf.

Gendry the 'prentice smith is invited to wierd a sword by Ned Stark, then is given a sword by Yoren, then steals a sword (or three) from Harenhall's armory, then is knighted to become a smith again - only now he's forging his own sword, Brienne thinks this is very queer. 

Donal Noye, obviously, is the smith of smiths, he forged the hammer the slew Rhaegar Targaryen, crown prince, then went to smith for the Night's Watch, and becomes de facto lord commander, or at least garrison commander for Castle Black, for a brief moment - he holds the Wall, and he is the one to give it over to Jon Snow. Noye dies a warrior's death, in a one to one fight agaist none other than Mag the Mighty, the King of Giants.

Mikken. Mikken is an armorer true and true, but his death is also very much one of a fighter and not of a labourer. He speaks up against Theon multiple times, even after Bran tells him to shut up. 

Tobho Mott is not a warrior at all, but then... he's not really that much of a smith either, more like a shop-owner. He's finely dressed and tending to lords and has journeymen and apprentices work his forges. 

of coooourse there's the Azor Ahai story too, which I almost forgot.

Seems to me George is always putting stuff in characters' mouths to then show us otherwise in the narrative itself... Smiths, in general, don't appear most prominently as labourers in asoiaf

post script:  (@Seams I know you will like this, Bran 5 in Clash opens with "Alebelly found him in the forge, working the bellows for Mikken." a prince smith! What are they forging, I wonder.)

[Seams]

Excellent examples!

I've been so wrapped up in Fool-Knights and Knights who are not really knights, I never thought to look more closely at the Smith-Warrior.

12 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

post script:  (@Seams I know you will like this, Bran 5 in Clash opens with "Alebelly found him in the forge, working the bellows for Mikken." a prince smith! What are they forging, I wonder.)

Yes I do like this - I love it. Bran is so often in the Winterfell crypt and here he is working the "bellows." Could be a pun on "below"? On the other hand, Bran draws strength from the howling of his direwolf, Summer. Is bellowing the same thing as howling?

But the larger point is that Bran appears to be a smith. Or, at least, a smith's apprentice - like Gendry?

[Sigella]

33 minutes ago, Seams said:

I don't want to derail the sister discussion. I'll have to finish my thoughts about The Sworn Sword and work them out in writing. Maybe that will help to determine whether fire or anything else is a fourth element. Egg's ring is an important symbol, but I don't know that it's part of the fertility cluster that I'm seeing with Ser Bennis of the Brown Shield, the Chequy Water, the dry fields and Wat's Wood, along with the small folk named after beans, melon and barleycorn and the boys in the berry patch.

The sigil ring in the boot may provide some kind of magic that brings the fertility elements together - rings are part of a major motif about the cyclical nature of time and events. Or it may be among symbols such as wine, webs, shields, baths, cellars, towers and the paying of a blood price, all of which are important elements in the story but not necessarily directly related to the seed / earth / water fertility motif.

Qouted from the Sansa and Arya-thread.

Heres my two cents:

Ser Bennis (brown) is an utter douche, going from being the jerk who raises all the shit to the coward who doesn’t want to face any consequences for his actions and runs off with some stolen goods. He is just shit all the way.

Chequy waters (blue), is a necessary resource; passive and a pawn rather than a player. I don’t remember which river the final battle took place in but that might be interesting too.

Wats wood (green and/or red?), has two faces - one that is green, shadowy, a source of some comfort and the other that is red for the big fire there.

The dry fields (yellow) with grapes turning into raisins on the vine I propose should be yellow since its ser Justice’s colour of arms, the cloak Dunk gets and because if so we get a complete colour wheel plus brown, which makes sense since Bennis’ brownness is a big thing, practically hammered into our heads with  how brown every single thing about Bennis is, the dude even smells like crap   The brown is the tinder.

Boys being burried among blackberries makes sense - black = death

The ”lords names” I cant fit with anything, only Wet Wat gets interesting since he carries all four colours: Wet (blue) Wat (green and/or red, like the wood) gets a lords name out of three possibly yellow crops.

[Walda]

On 7/17/2020 at 5:06 AM, Curled Finger said:

What does this say about Gendry?

I think it forshadows him joining the puritanical followers of the Lord of Light. 

Contast Asha, a peach-eater. She isn't impressed by the justice of the Red God.

In the Christian art of the high middle ages and the early reformation,  peaches were used to represent summer, abundance, youth, soft living, easy victories, temporal pleasures, sexual pleasure, and especially homosexuality (because the seam of a peach looks a bit like a pair of rosy buttocks).

Carrivagio famously deicted the Church as a basket of friut that looked delicious at first glance, but on closer inspection there were signs of a worm in the apple, spots on the pear, the leaf on the perfect quince was blotched with fungus, the purple figs were so overripe their sides had split, and one was visibly yellowing the green figs it was nestled beside. All four varieties of grapes had burst and withered fruit in their clusters, and this cornucopia of corruption was topped with a moth-coddled peach.

It seems to me that GRRM borrows directly from christian iconography, not only through JRRTolkien. It's not just the peaches and the pomegranates, there are things like the Northerners cutting off the breasts of the maiden in the Sallydance sept, a direct reference to St Agatha's hagiography(She is the saint usually depicted with a tray with a pair of breasts on it. Not to be confused with St Lucy, who is depicted with a plate with a pair of eyes on it, even though their storys are the same - young christian woman refuses to marry a roman man, is taken to a brothel and tortured horribly but miraculously dies a maid). 

Peaches in ASoIaF represent the Reach, summer, youth, sweetness, youthful certainty of easy victories that may prove meaningless or illusory in the longer term, twinks, Renly, and of course, sexual pleasure. 

The worshipers of the Red God are the iconoclasts of Westeros. They burn the weirwoods and the statues of the septs in opposition to idolatory, with Calvinist zeal. No suprise that these Puritans don't approve of brothels, or revels, sex outside of marriage, or even inside of marriage, if it is just for fun.

The peach metaphor that puzzles me the most is the second one in the book

Quote

He liked the way the air tasted way up high, sweet and cold as a winter peach.

(AGoT Ch8 Bran II)

Bran is a summer child, and peaches are a summer fruit. The word "winter" here throws me.

Winter Peach is a variety of apple, and could refer to a late summer peach, the especially large and sweet and juicy ones, like the ones that King Robert had brought to Winterfell from Highgarden. 

It seems to me that royal visit was the first opportunity Bran ever had to taste a winter peach, and even summer snows and cold air were a relatively new experience for him.

And, now I think about it, isn't it interesting that Robert had been speaking to Eddard of Highgarden and Storm's End as if he had visited both of them very recently? And how did the fruit stay fresh on the long journey to Winterfell?

Eddard, like Gendry and Stannis, is not the kind to be tempted by a peach.

[Curled Finger]

12 hours ago, Walda said:

I think it forshadows him joining the puritanical followers of the Lord of Light. 

Contast Asha, a peach-eater. She isn't impressed by the justice of the Red God.

In the Christian art of the high middle ages and the early reformation,  peaches were used to represent summer, abundance, youth, soft living, easy victories, temporal pleasures, sexual pleasure, and especially homosexuality (because the seam of a peach looks a bit like a pair of rosy buttocks).

Carrivagio famously deicted the Church as a basket of friut that looked delicious at first glance, but on closer inspection there were signs of a worm in the apple, spots on the pear, the leaf on the perfect quince was blotched with fungus, the purple figs were so overripe their sides had split, and one was visibly yellowing the green figs it was nestled beside. All four varieties of grapes had burst and withered fruit in their clusters, and this cornucopia of corruption was topped with a moth-coddled peach.

It seems to me that GRRM borrows directly from christian iconography, not only through JRRTolkien. It's not just the peaches and the pomegranates, there are things like the Northerners cutting off the breasts of the maiden in the Sallydance sept, a direct reference to St Agatha's hagiography(She is the saint usually depicted with a tray with a pair of breasts on it. Not to be confused with St Lucy, who is depicted with a plate with a pair of eyes on it, even though their storys are the same - young christian woman refuses to marry a roman man, is taken to a brothel and tortured horribly but miraculously dies a maid). 

Peaches in ASoIaF represent the Reach, summer, youth, sweetness, youthful certainty of easy victories that may prove meaningless or illusory in the longer term, twinks, Renly, and of course, sexual pleasure. 

The worshipers of the Red God are the iconoclasts of Westeros. They burn the weirwoods and the statues of the septs in opposition to idolatory, with Calvinist zeal. No suprise that these Puritans don't approve of brothels, or revels, sex outside of marriage, or even inside of marriage, if it is just for fun.

The peach metaphor that puzzles me the most is the second one in the book

(AGoT Ch8 Bran II)

Bran is a summer child, and peaches are a summer fruit. The word "winter" here throws me.

Winter Peach is a variety of apple, and could refer to a late summer peach, the especially large and sweet and juicy ones, like the ones that King Robert had brought to Winterfell from Highgarden. 

It seems to me that royal visit was the first opportunity Bran ever had to taste a winter peach, and even summer snows and cold air were a relatively new experience for him.

And, now I think about it, isn't it interesting that Robert had been speaking to Eddard of Highgarden and Storm's End as if he had visited both of them very recently? And how did the fruit stay fresh on the long journey to Winterfell?

Eddard, like Gendry and Stannis, is not the kind to be tempted by a peach.

Let me start with Dang, that was so well written, @Walda.  This is maybe my favorite thing about this forum and members--we can all learn something from someone(s). 

I appreciate your answer to my question.   It is such a commonly held belief or maybe just desire for Gendry to become a savior of sorts in reforging Ice or forging new VS or becoming The Baratheon or becoming Arya's love interest.   Your lovely lesson sort of vindicates the thinking that Gendry is a knight in his own right, quite separate from his trade or affiliation or bloodline.  He chose knighthood over Arya's companionship, despite his caring for her.  He chose knighthood over an investigation into why the Queen would be looking for him.  Not unlike his non peach eating nuncle Stannis, Gendry is doing his duty with the BwB.   He is one of the few and heroic who can take the high road to whatever becomes of Westeros.   

I have to ponder this bit about the R'hllorists = Puritans.   I get it to a certain point, but it obvious you see something I can't or just haven't yet.  Perhaps I misunderstand Melisandre's seductions and words officiating the marriage of Alys Karstark to Sigorn.   It sounded very sexual to me.   Feel free to straighten me out on that.  

It is damned interesting that Robert speaks to Ned of Highgarden and Storm's End as those these places were visited very recently.   Post more like this, you absolutely rocked.   Thank you for sharing your knowledge here.   

[Seams]

14 hours ago, Walda said:

The worshipers of the Red God are the iconoclasts of Westeros. They burn the weirwoods and the statues of the septs in opposition to idolatry, with Calvinist zeal. No surprise that these Puritans don't approve of brothels, or revels, sex outside of marriage, or even inside of marriage, if it is just for fun.

The statues of the new gods that were burned by Melisandre were carved from the masts of ships. This is anti-sex symbolism because of the phallic symbolism (reinforced by Sam Tarly's famous fat pink mast scene). After the masts are burned, Stannis and Selyse depart arm-in-arm, perhaps finally ready to act on Selyse's wish for more R'hllor-sanctified procreative activity. On the other hand, Stannis had to wear a glove to handle his flaming sword - perhaps he is planning to wear a condom for the tryst with his wife?

Quote

It is such a commonly held belief or maybe just desire for Gendry to become a savior of sorts in reforging Ice or forging new VS or becoming The Baratheon or becoming Arya's love interest.   Your lovely lesson sort of vindicates the thinking that Gendry is a knight in his own right, quite separate from his trade or affiliation or bloodline.  He chose knighthood over Arya's companionship, despite his caring for her. 

I think Gendry and Arya's potential hook-up is the Robert / Lyanna match that never came to fruition (so to speak). Robert could not stop eating peaches and he lost Lyanna, who was put off by his womanizing. Gendry rejects peaches because he is a one-woman man. He wants to be faithful to his lover.

[Curled Finger]

20 hours ago, Seams said:

The statues of the new gods that were burned by Melisandre were carved from the masts of ships. This is anti-sex symbolism because of the phallic symbolism (reinforced by Sam Tarly's famous fat pink mast scene). After the masts are burned, Stannis and Selyse depart arm-in-arm, perhaps finally ready to act on Selyse's wish for more R'hllor-sanctified procreative activity. On the other hand, Stannis had to wear a glove to handle his flaming sword - perhaps he is planning to wear a condom for the tryst with his wife?

I think Gendry and Arya's potential hook-up is the Robert / Lyanna match that never came to fruition (so to speak). Robert could not stop eating peaches and he lost Lyanna, who was put off by his womanizing. Gendry rejects peaches because he is a one-woman man. He wants to be faithful to his lover.

Loved the 1st bit, @Seams--almost put a laughing emoji on but I knew you would stump me with what ever came next.  Don't you give any slack for Arya being just a little bitty girl when Gendry met her?  I can't even see how he could be attracted to her and perhaps that is why I am such a buzzkill on the shipping.  

[Seams]

On 8/28/2020 at 9:26 PM, Lady Dacey said:

I'm thinking of the many smith-warriors we meet in asoiaf.

Cross-posting an observation about Long Jon Heddle as a smith-warrior, with larger implications for symbolism of creating and destroying dragons, symbols of the Targaryen dynasty:

 

[Seams]

I'm bumping this thread because the peach analysis is about to become relevant in the next installment of the Dunk & Egg analysis that is percolating in my head. 

Some thoughts that may relate to peaches:

- Jaime seems to be turning away from Cersei and toward Brienne. One woman is his only lover; the other is increasingly important in his desire to keep his oath(s). Cersei is beautiful and sexy (like a peach?) while Brienne is homely and combative. Brienne was present at the death of peach-eater Renly. Brienne has had a bite taken out of her cheek. (Cheeks are associated with peaches in GRRM's symbolism.)

- Aegon the Conqueror, Visenya and Rhaenys may also relate to the peach symbolism. Rhaenys was Aegon's favorite lover and Visenya was more of a warrior and strategic companion. Rhaenys disappeared (died) young; Aegon had to rely on Visenya to help him rule. 

- One of the notable aspects of peaches is peach fuzz. I don't remember whether I've written it up, but there is wordplay around "razor," "high" and "Azor Ahai." 

Quote

The Other slid forward on silent feet. In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on. There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor.

Ser Waymar met him bravely. "Dance with me then." He lifted his sword high over his head, defiant. His hands trembled from the weight of it, or perhaps from the cold. Yet in that moment, Will thought, he was a boy no longer, but a man of the Night's Watch.

The Other halted. Will saw its eyes; blue, deeper and bluer than any human eyes, a blue that burned like ice. They fixed on the longsword trembling on high, watched the moonlight running cold along the metal. For a heartbeat he dared to hope. (AGoT, Prologue)

Cersei is given a haircut by the Silent Sisters just as Jaime is falling out of love with her. (Or so it seems to the reader.) Brienne has hair like straw. In The Sworn Sword, Dunk notices that Egg is starting to sprout a few facial hairs. Rohanne Webber brushes her cheek with the end of her long braid (which Dunk later cuts). So this peach stuff should probably be examined along side the shaggy and sharp symbolism. My earlier puzzlement over Grand Maester Pycelle as a peach-eater and Tyrion / Bronn cutting his beard is almost certainly tied to this shaggy and sharp, peach fuzz symbolism. 

I hope to post something soon in the Knight of the Seven Kingdoms thread (in the re-read forum) that will relate to biting peaches. (And yes, it appears that Ser Eustace was not off on a tangent when he told the story about the Little Lion defending against the Lannister who wanted to take a bite out of the Reach. I am glad to help restore the much-maligned reputation of Lord Osgrey.)

[Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe]

Symbol 

A peach sliced in half. A red heart surrounded by orange and yellow.

Stanis banner? 

 

[Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe]

On 8/22/2020 at 7:28 AM, Seams said:

Septa Mordane used to say I had a blacksmith's hands."

Bah! Never noticed “I had a blacksmith’s hands”

[Seams]

Here's another motif that deserves some analysis:

• Lace (usually Myrish)
• Spiderwebs / spiders
• Tatters

GRRM has given us the mysterious but key player Varys, known as The Spider (among other nicknames).

In The Sworn Sword of the Dunk & Egg stories, we have Rohanne Webber, whose house sigil is a spider and whose workers build a network of canals that look like a web.

The purpose of a spider web is to catch prey. Does Lady Rohanne accomplish this by marrying? The incident with the servant of Ser Eustace, Lem or Dake (depending on who is telling the story) involves a forager/poacher who is punished by being tied up in a sack and dropped in Lady Rohanne's moat. This seems like an aquatic version of a bug caught in a spider web, who would be bound with spider silk and killed by having his blood drained. 

Lacemakers are known as tatters (lacemaking is called "tatting") and the spider is a symbol for their profession. 

Highborn ladies in Westeros often prize a gown that incorporates Myrish Lace in its design. Do we ever see men wearing Myrish Lace? Are there any common circumstances that unite the mentions of Myrish Lace? (I.e., is a woman trying to attract a mate or seduce someone when she wears it?)

We have an explanation for the Tattered Prince that has nothing to do with lacemaking but I never rule out the likelihood that GRRM intends a double meaning for certain words, especially if he goes out of his way to explain their meaning along a single line of logic. How could the Tattered Prince relate to Varys or to this web / lace motif?

If "tatters" as rags does tie into a lacemaking motif, is it related to the "ragged" motif that seems to be associated with daggers and Gared (deserters / turncloaks)?

As I've mentioned elsewhere, I compare GRRM's use of symbols to chain mail: links can go in several directions to make the whole garment. The lace motif could link to the larger set of symbols around fabric and sewing which is what drew me into this ASOIAF symbolism stuff in the first place. 

The spider motif could tie into a larger set of symbols around bugs: moths (Cersei watches one trapped in a lantern and wishes it would die) and cocoons (Dany wears a tight tokar that she sheds when she flies for the first time on Drogon), ants (people viewed from the Wall or another high vantage point as well as the sigil of House Ambrose), and:

Quote

Flowers, birds, bugs and fruit are often found wherever the text mentions or alludes to members of the Rainbow Guard. I suspect this is also part of the Garth Greenhand imagery, as he was associated with fertility, fruitfulness and the abundance of the harvest.

I don't think I ever worked out the bug symbolism as I intended, but here is the link to the Rainbow Guard thread. If you've seen my past posts, you know I am stuck on this death and rebirth cycle of life that involves leaves falling to the earth and becoming humus (the organic component of soil, formed by the decomposition of leaves and other plant material by soil microorganisms) that, in turn, nourishes the growth of new plants. Bugs play an important role in breaking down the leaves to create the humus.