The Wheel of Time TV Show 4: The Budget Rising [BOOK SPOILERS]

[Werthead]

3 hours ago, Poobah said:

Haven't listened to that lengthy Dusty Wheel episode but my general feeling is that a lot is being made out of very little information and I'm gonna wait and see rather than panic. Also EotW really does not have 8 episodes of filmable material and I've always been of the opinion that they would need to introduce other characters and plots, expand the worldbuilding, and introduce important elements for later as soon as they can so there's nothing much here that's especially surprising or shocking. Since they're adapting something that's already finished they have all the insight and hindsight they need to figure out who/what's important and how to adjust the various story threads to blend together better for TV so that the principal characters all get ongoing screen time and there aren't lengthy lulls where nothing happens.

It's worth noting that The Eye of the World is (slightly) longer than A Game of Thrones, which was adapted to 10 episodes with a lot stuff left out. That's not counting the major new storyline with Logain as well.

[Poobah]

46 minutes ago, Werthead said:

It's worth noting that The Eye of the World is (slightly) longer than A Game of Thrones, which was adapted to 10 episodes with a lot stuff left out. That's not counting the major new storyline with Logain as well.

Sure but Game of Thrones is extremely dense with lots of important intrigue related dialogue, whereas Eye of the World is heavy on slow travelogue, descriptions of all the people and places the cast visit on their journey as well as other associated worldbuilding stuff. The only scenes that really hit the A Game of Thrones level of density in terms of "pages of content vs how long it's gonna take to show on screen" are the dreams where Ishmael screws with the boys, plus some exposition from Moiraine, Thom, and Loial. I love WoT but it isn't exactly chapters upon chapters of tense character drama and heavy, well-written dialogue.

There is tons of interesting stuff going on in the background but Jordan only expands upon it much later and often tended towards the "gotcha/whammie" style of reveal so that stuff isn't shown on the page much and we're left to piece things together in the aftermath of a reveal. Hence my expectation that it's gonna need to be padded out with a bit more of that juicy goodness from the get go - Aes Sedai politics, the Black Ajah (mm paranoia, anyone could be a secret Black Ajah member!), villains who are low key actually successful and don't get a Balefire enema the second they show up on screen (BA+Mesaana rotting the tower from within and pulling the strings for the schism for a start), that sorta thing. I'd be surprised if a Liandrin is the only named character who has some plot later to be made a member of the group escorting Logain back to Tar Valon just to get the audience to know them / have seen them a bit (interestingly for Jordan none of the Logain escort crew are explicitly named - we get told that Cadsuane was involved in his capture but peaced out back to retirement as soon as he was shielded, so she's maybe a possibility).

[SpaceChampion]

 

[Werthead]

I do find it interesting there was some framing of "panicking" with regards to some of the bigger changes that seem to be happening, which isn't really the case. I think there is a key problem within Wheel of Time that the story is simply far too big to tell faithfully. Maybe you could do it as an AMC show with 16 episodes per season with each season split in half, covering two books per season, but you're not going to have enough money to do the story justice that way.

As a result, WoT is in the fairly simple position of having, realistically, 6-8 seasons of 8-10 episodes apiece to tell the story. That's slightly fewer episodes than Game of Thrones to tell a story that, in the books, is more than twice as long. Any hope of this being a "faithful" retelling of the books has gone completely out the window. They're going to be changing things, big time, compressing storylines, combining characters, probably deleting entire story arcs and locations from the show. You can't adapt it any other way. That's why I think there's much greater acceptance of changes in the WoT show as being inevitable than, say, the Discworld TV show (and the WoT show is staying aesthetically and thematically close to the books even if stories and characters are shifting, whilst The Watch is definitely not).

It will be interesting seeing how they proceed in later seasons.

One idea I had which I think would work well is combining Books 2 and 3 into Season 2, not linearly (4 episodes of The Great Hunt and 4 episodes of The Dragon Reborn) but in terms of mixing the two together. The Seanchan take Tear rather than Falme and the end-of-season battle is Rand fighting Ba'alzamon in the skies over Tear, except this kills him (Ba'alzamon) outright and marks the Fall of the Stone. Mat blows the Horn to rout the Seanchan and Moiraine slays Be'lal with balefire. The Aiel have shown up to help so all of that goes down. You kill two birds with one stone and you go into Season 3 with The Shadow Rising already underway and can start getting ahead of the curve. You also eliminate the problem of Books  2 and 3 having very strong structural similarities and even redundancies (the heroes' dreams being dicked around with, a Rand/Ba'alzamon boss fight) and you don't have the probelm of losing Rand for most of a season. It does introduce a few new problems, like Faile having to show up somewhere else, but these are not particularly egregious.

[SpaceChampion]

14 minutes ago, Werthead said:

One idea I had which I think would work well is combining Books 2 and 3 into Season 2, not linearly (4 episodes of The Great Hunt and 4 episodes of The Dragon Reborn) but in terms of mixing the two together. The Seanchan take Tear rather than Falme and the end-of-season battle is Rand fighting Ba'alzamon in the skies over Tear, except this kills him (Ba'alzamon) outright and marks the Fall of the Stone. Mat blows the Horn to rout the Seanchan and Moiraine slays Be'lal with balefire. The Aiel have shown up to help so all of that goes down. You kill two birds with one stone and you go into Season 3 with The Shadow Rising already underway and can start getting ahead of the curve. You also eliminate the problem of Books  2 and 3 having very strong structural similarities and even redundancies (the heroes' dreams being dicked around with, a Rand/Ba'alzamon boss fight) and you don't have the probelm of losing Rand for most of a season. It does introduce a few new problems, like Faile having to show up somewhere else, but these are not particularly egregious.

That's sensible, and they can cover Tarabon stuff in a later season when hunting Graendal and searching for Rodel Ituralde.

Faile is a Hunter for the Horn.  Easy enough to find her on the way from Illian to Tear if she hears the Horn is going there.  It could be she receives a spy report from Saldea (assuming they have a spy in Fal Dara) with information that Padan Fain stole the Horn, so all she has to do is track him.

[unJon]

You could combine books 7-10 into a few episodes. 

[Gertrude]

Honestly, I am looking forward to a massive compression of the story. As long as they stay true to the spirit, I'm good. As you said, there is a lot of repetition and reeeeaaaalllly slow burning plots and dicking around in dreams/TAR that can be shown, but cut to the bare necessity. 

I'm also campaigning to cut the circus. Please. They can pass through, because I kind of like them seeing the se'redit (elephant) trainer and Luca isn't that horrible, but do we need the whole schtick there? I say hell no.

And Faile *sigh* You reminded me that Perrin might have a wife per early casting and I'm still not sure I'm ok with that. And I won't know until Perrin and Faile return to Emmon Field together several seasons later to see how that plays out.

[fionwe1987]

5 hours ago, Werthead said:

 

5 hours ago, Werthead said:

As a result, WoT is in the fairly simple position of having, realistically, 6-8 seasons of 8-10 episodes apiece to tell the story. That's slightly fewer episodes than Game of Thrones to tell a story that, in the books, is more than twice as long. Any hope of this being a "faithful" retelling of the books has gone completely out the window. They're going to be changing things, big time, compressing storylines, combining characters, probably deleting entire story arcs and locations from the show. You can't adapt it any other way. That's why I think there's much greater acceptance of changes in the WoT show as being inevitable than, say, the Discworld TV show (and the WoT show is staying aesthetically and thematically close to the books even if stories and characters are shifting, whilst The Watch is definitely not).

Agreed. Big changes are both expected and entirely reasonable. 

5 hours ago, Werthead said:

One idea I had which I think would work well is combining Books 2 and 3 into Season 2, not linearly (4 episodes of The Great Hunt and 4 episodes of The Dragon Reborn) but in terms of mixing the two together. The Seanchan take Tear rather than Falme and the end-of-season battle is Rand fighting Ba'alzamon in the skies over Tear, except this kills him (Ba'alzamon) outright and marks the Fall of the Stone. Mat blows the Horn to rout the Seanchan and Moiraine slays Be'lal with balefire. The Aiel have shown up to help so all of that goes down. You kill two birds with one stone and you go into Season 3 with The Shadow Rising already underway and can start getting ahead of the curve. You also eliminate the problem of Books  2 and 3 having very strong structural similarities and even redundancies (the heroes' dreams being dicked around with, a Rand/Ba'alzamon boss fight) and you don't have the probelm of losing Rand for most of a season. It does introduce a few new problems, like Faile having to show up somewhere else, but these are not particularly egregious.

Yeah I think we discussed this in one of the earlier threads. Setting up an Aiel-Seanchan rivalry early makes sense too, I feel. 

There are issues though. Mixing Callandor, tel'aran'rhiod, the Seanchan and the a'dam, the Horn, Fain and the dagger... It feels too crowded, but not a one of these things can be skipped, I feel. 

[Gertrude]

I am torn on Fain. I like his introduction as a warning that anyone can be a darkfriend. I liked some of his earlier menace, but he really started to fizzle fast and his ending was lackluster. He never really fulfilled his potential IMO. So unless they can figure out a way to up his importance to the end game, I'd almost rather they reduce his role and keep him as an early, low-level menace.

A potentially divisive opinion - I never liked Shadar Logoth. It's unfortunate in my mind that the dagger and the cleansing are tied to it. I wouldn't be sad if they figured out a way to avoid it, but I have to admit, I'm not sure how they would solely because of the dagger (unless they reworked Mat's early arc). I think it would be easier to figure out a way to tweak it or replace it in the story for the cleansing.

[Corvinus85]

Jordan should have killed off Fain in the same book with the cleansing. He also should have given more explanation as to what his evil was, as some of the Forsaken, like Aginor, knew about it.

[Werthead]

Yeah, Fain should have died at the Cleansing or during Mashadar's attack in Book 7. No reason to have him around after that.

[Derfel Cadarn]

18 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Yeah, Fain should have died at the Cleansing or during Mashadar's attack in Book 7. No reason to have him around after that.

Did RJ have an actual purpose for Fain? Seemed conplete waste of time after the first half of the series.

[Werthead]

9 minutes ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

Did RJ have an actual purpose for Fain? Seemed conplete waste of time after the first half of the series.

I think he was an EotWism (also a Great Huntism), something RJ set up as being hugely important when he was planning a trilogy or six-book series, but he lost that thread as other things came to the fore. I believe the notes were pretty light on what Fain was up to, presumably why he was killed so off-handedly.

[Poobah]

8 hours ago, Gertrude said:

I am torn on Fain. I like his introduction as a warning that anyone can be a darkfriend. I liked some of his earlier menace, but he really started to fizzle fast and his ending was lackluster. He never really fulfilled his potential IMO. So unless they can figure out a way to up his importance to the end game, I'd almost rather they reduce his role and keep him as an early, low-level menace.

Yeah I don't think even Jordan had any idea what to do with him as the series progressed.

15 hours ago, Werthead said:

As a result, WoT is in the fairly simple position of having, realistically, 6-8 seasons of 8-10 episodes apiece to tell the story. That's slightly fewer episodes than Game of Thrones to tell a story that, in the books, is more than twice as long. Any hope of this being a "faithful" retelling of the books has gone completely out the window. They're going to be changing things, big time, compressing storylines, combining characters, probably deleting entire story arcs and locations from the show. You can't adapt it any other way.

This is where I have to disagree. I saw the opinion that the series was just too large and had too much stuff in and would need to be brutally cut down in order to adapt it properly a lot on various message boards when the show was first announced and my disagreement with that hasn't changed at all since then: WoT has a massive page/word count but as much as I love it (and I do, I think more than most on these boards) in terms of actual important major plot threads there isn't nearly as much there as the book/word count would suggest - the series is just really, really slow. I think we're all expecting the gang to leave the Two Rivers by the end of the first episode at latest and that's over 150 pages and one of the more dense sections of Eye of the World to boot. WoT hits it's well-known standstill in Crossroads of Twilight but throughout there's a whole lot of words/pages spent on a whole lot of... I don't wanna say "nothing" but y'know... things which aren't really relevant to advancing any major plot or character arc.

I certainly expect changes, cuts, and compression (because there's a lot of stuff in there that those can apply to) but not on the enormous scale that you are suggesting here, and I also expect to see some expansion of certain things. Logain we know is being brought into the fore, a decision I absolutely approve of, and I don't think he's gonna be the only character to have their role expanded upon. Since it's a pretty central plot from the middle of the series onwards I expect to see the division in the tower with the plotting against Siuan introduced early, with an expanded role for her generally, as well as Elaida and some of her supporters, along with the Black Ajah, and Mesaana pulling the strings from the shadows (and also right out in the light in her cover identity). With an announced casting for Liandrin it seems like she's rising in prominence a bit, probably as our main known member of the Black Ajah for a bit, and Verrin's a no-brainer to get more screen time. Personally I'd also like to see more of Pevara since she's one of my favourite tertiary characters as well as the prime example of a non-evil, non-stupid, non-dickwad Red, and she's important in several plots later on, plus not hard to weave in to the tower politics stuff being a Sitter (she could also take any or all of Tarna's material without much work). Finally I expect the Seanchan to not completely disappear for 5 books (2-3ish seasons?).

[Werthead]

 

Quote

This is where I have to disagree. I saw the opinion that the series was just too large and had too much stuff in and would need to be brutally cut down in order to adapt it properly a lot on various message boards when the show was first announced and my disagreement with that hasn't changed at all since then: WoT has a massive page/word count but as much as I love it (and I do, I think more than most on these boards) in terms of actual important major plot threads there isn't nearly as much there as the book/word count would suggest - the series is just really, really slow. I think we're all expecting the gang to leave the Two Rivers by the end of the first episode at latest and that's over 150 pages and one of the more dense sections of Eye of the World to boot. WoT hits it's well-known standstill in Crossroads of Twilight but throughout there's a whole lot of words/pages spent on a whole lot of... I don't wanna say "nothing" but y'know... things which aren't really relevant to advancing any major plot or character arc.

I think the series became super slow, but it's certainly not at the start, and doesn't really start slowing down until Lord of Chaos (although that gets a pass from fans because of Dumai's Wells), and it certainly doesn't narratively screech to a halt until Path of Daggers through the first half of Knife of Dreams, then the last three books are absolutely jam-packed again.

You could very easily fill 10, let alone 8, episodes with a book at a time and get to five seasons down of relatively fast-moving action without having hit the slowdown in the books, so you're two-thirds of the way through the likely lifespan of the show whilst having only adapted a bit more than a third of the books.

LotR was easily as slow as some of the WoT books (not as slow as 8-10, of course) and certainly slower than the first five, and still averaged out at around an hour per 100 pages of text for the movie adaptation (with some major sequences still cut), which is the rough rule-of-thumb for adaptation in Hollywood (which is why even short books of around 350-400 pages still end up getting cut in the transition to film). On that basis, a faithful (but still with cuts) adaptation of WoT would take around 110 hours, which we're clearly not going to get.

Quote

I certainly expect changes, cuts, and compression (because there's a lot of stuff in there that those can apply to) but not on the enormous scale that you are suggesting here, and I also expect to see some expansion of certain things. Logain we know is being brought into the fore, a decision I absolutely approve of, and I don't think he's gonna be the only character to have their role expanded upon. Since it's a pretty central plot from the middle of the series onwards I expect to see the division in the tower with the plotting against Siuan introduced early, with an expanded role for her generally, as well as Elaida and some of her supporters, along with the Black Ajah, and Mesaana pulling the strings from the shadows (and also right out in the light in her cover identity). With an announced casting for Liandrin it seems like she's rising in prominence a bit, probably as our main known member of the Black Ajah for a bit, and Verrin's a no-brainer to get more screen time. Personally I'd also like to see more of Pevara since she's one of my favourite tertiary characters as well as the prime example of a non-evil, non-stupid, non-dickwad Red, and she's important in several plots later on, plus not hard to weave in to the tower politics stuff being a Sitter (she could also take any or all of Tarna's material without much work). Finally I expect the Seanchan to not completely disappear for 5 books (2-3ish seasons?).

Neither Verin nor Elaida have been cast for Season 1 (Verin you wouldn't expect, but Elaida is an interesting omission), so I'm expecting them to show up in Season 2.

Pevara and the hunters in Tower storyline I think is an obvious candidate to be cut this point. Or if they include it, it might be made more immediately relevant. It was always odd that the hunters story never really achieved its goal (finding Black Ajah sisters) but kind segued into the Black Tower story instead. The expanded role for Logain is making me wonder if they will include that story though, as that would make a certain degree of sense (I've also seen the idea that they don't have Taim and just have Logain as the leader of the Asha'man, which is more straightforward but you lose the duplicitous element of having Taim in the mix).

[fionwe1987]

2 hours ago, Poobah said:

This is where I have to disagree. I saw the opinion that the series was just too large and had too much stuff in and would need to be brutally cut down in order to adapt it properly a lot on various message boards when the show was first announced and my disagreement with that hasn't changed at all since then: WoT has a massive page/word count but as much as I love it (and I do, I think more than most on these boards) in terms of actual important major plot threads there isn't nearly as much there as the book/word count would suggest - the series is just really, really slow. 

I don't think you're disagreeing. You're saying, for instance, that Rand, Mat and Thom meeting Bayoe Domon in book 1, and the same guy coming up in books 2 and 3, and then later again with Mat in Ebou Dar is a slow, more or less pointless arc. It takes up pages that can easily he cut in the show.

And you're absolutely right. But this thing of minor characters from many books before showing up or being a small part of some other major event later... That's what RJ used to build the concept of the Pattern, and lives intersecting and affecting each other. For a lot of people, this will be seen as a major cut. 

It's easy to see the length and slowness of WoT as a pure negative. But it isn't. For a lot of people, that is part of the charm of the series, what gives the world a lived-in feeling. 

There's no easy way to do that in the show. You'd need to keep the same actors for very spaced apart scenes, and I don't see that being economical. So river boat guy who helps Rand and Mat escape Shadar Logoth, if he even exists, won't be showing up to help Elayne and Nynaeve out of Falme. Aes Sedai who tried to get Moiraine to go to the Tower when she was in disguise in Chachin won't be one of the Aes Sedai who capture Egwene in Tar Valon. 

That interconnected feeling will go, and whether you cared for it or not, that's a loss/massive cut. 

As for Fain, I do agree he can die with Shadar Logoth. He did serve a purpose after, though, in that he was misdirection that kept people from figuring out the end-game. If you followed the theorizing while the books were being written, a lot of the early stuff, from the Horn to Fain to tel'aran'rhiod and the Green Man, the Song of the Tinkers, and, of course, Callandor, were all linked to the ending. By keeping those options open, the fairly straightforward "powerful weapon in fortress that has hidden secrets crucial to defeating the Dark One" arc was never obvious to the readers. And the theorizing absolutely was a major part of WoTs success, so I'd argue Fain served his role. It just wasn't an in-world role that was satisfying.

The Horn, on the other hand, while good misdirection also got a good in-world resolution. Fain and Shadar Logoth, though, are thematically important. Mashadar is completely human made evil. And I'd rather see it's role expanded than contracted, because it keeps things interesting.

With regard to the Black Ajah hunt in the Tower... It served it's purpose, right? We got to meet these sitters in the Tower who weren't blinded fools, and who were able to put aside the inter-Ajah rivalry Mesaana fostered. In hindsight, them becoming Egwene's support, and later her voting block in the united Tower, makes perfect sense.

The reason that doesn't stand out is that Brandon straight up sucked at writing Tower politics. So their actual importance was fizzled on stupid shit. Book 12 should have been way more focussed on finding Mesaana. And I suspect the show will do that, and this lot is involved in that, so I'd rather keep them in.

Also, in general the Tower's politics makes for good TV. It's meetings in rooms, so it won't be very expensive, but it's both in the books and absolutely important to the end story, so I think they should expand it as much as possible. 

The disfunction of the White Tower as a superpower in decline, focused on infighting and petty rivalry always struck me as one of Jordan's better arcs, and it's going to resonate massively now that we're right in the middle of the real life version of that. Elaida is very Trump-y. Smarter than him by a bit, but the ego and narcissism is exactly the same. I think they should focus on her as much as they can, and on the other side of the coin where Egwene is learning from Siuan how not to fuck it all up. 

[Gertrude]

I don't mind the Tower politics - it's good and interesting in theory and becomes essential to the plot. I have to admit, in the books I was bored by most of it and the way it was written. By all means keep it, but I really hope they can condense it in a meaningful fashion. Keep it all, but don't swell on it. It's not the arc I disliked - it was the portrayal. These are weighty issues and real agendas, but it was hard to follow or care because it all blended together with cookie cutter Aes Sedai personalities on a slow burn. It needs to be punched up and given life with distinct personalities advocating their positions behind closed doors, IMO.

I can see the story cutting out the Horn, because while it was tied to a lot of things, it was really just a McGuffin, much like the Bowl of Winds. Things can be reworked without needing these specific items to advance the movement of the story. I wouldn't be sad to see things like that gone.

I'll readily admit I am one who enjoyed the books, but kind of in spite of themselves. I'd have loved to see a different author's take on it, and I'm excited that we're kind of going to get it. I want the spirit kept intact, but I'm more excited at the thought of major changes than most.

[SpaceChampion]

I'm thinking there isn't a big reason Elaida has to be stationed in Caemlyn.  She doesn't stay there, so they might as well start her out in Tar Valon, perhaps as head of the Red Ajah or scheming to become the head.  In season two.  Maybe even Mistress of Novices instead of Sheriam, but I hope not.

 

[Werthead]

The Horn will stay because its scenes are somewhat iconic. It's probably more likely that they'll cut the Bowl and the whole "long season" arc, but maybe not because that story is the casus belli for Mat meeting Tuon and getting under the skin of the Seanchan, and I think that arc will remain.

[Gertrude]

They could just have heard about a stash of angreal they are trying to find. Or something better - they're the writers, not me. I also like the girls meeting the Seafolk and the Kin, so it's not like I want all the aspects of the arcs gone, just cut out the things that don't work (but I do wish the non-Aes Sedai channelers had more oomph in the overall story - they fizzled too)

As for the Horn, I can see why some think it's iconic, but I don't. I classify it as something that doesn't live up to the hype and doesn't really work. I've always found it kind of corny.

Like I said, I like the books, but there's also a loooot I would change or cut. I don't know what balance they are trying to strike, but the showrunner is a fan, so I'm guessing it's going to try to keep as much detail as they practically can.