The Wheel of Time TV Show 4: The Budget Rising [BOOK SPOILERS]

[SpaceChampion]

7 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

I don't know what balance they are trying to strike, but the showrunner is a fan, so I'm guessing it's going to try to keep as much detail as they practically can.

That's my chief reason for thinking they're not going to cut Caemlyn and go straight to Tar Valon.  The showrunner is a fan.

Plus Caemlyn is a frequent location in the books.  It has to be established anyway, and deleting it sounds like playing havoc with the geography.  There is little reason to visit Tar Valon now instead of it.  I can see them do both, but not just the latter.

[fionwe1987]

10 hours ago, Gertrude said:

I don't mind the Tower politics - it's good and interesting in theory and becomes essential to the plot. I have to admit, in the books I was bored by most of it and the way it was written. By all means keep it, but I really hope they can condense it in a meaningful fashion. Keep it all, but don't swell on it. It's not the arc I disliked - it was the portrayal. These are weighty issues and real agendas, but it was hard to follow or care because it all blended together with cookie cutter Aes Sedai personalities on a slow burn. It needs to be punched up and given life with distinct personalities advocating their positions behind closed doors, IMO.

Nah. RJ knew what he was doing there, I think. The Aes Sedai are petty, insular, disconnected little shits. A large majority of them don't have differences based on well considered positions but out of centuries of petty jealousies and slights. Which is why a majority of them appear to be cookie cutter morons who you can swap for another in a heartbeat and not notice. Rebel Sitter no. 5 from the Blue Ajah and loyalist Sitter no..18 from the Red have their tribal differences, sure, but they're part of a system that has rewarded scheming and powerplay for it's own sake rather than one where principle matters.

The ones who break this norm tend to be memorable and also, in the end of the day, the actually useful Aes Sedai. And I don't want that changing. The destruction of the Aes Sedai mystique and the revelation that inside, they're in a particularly nighmarish state of dysfunction that would rightly belong in Veep is good.

It feels right. It feels like a real problem for a major character to solve just in time for the Last Battle. The end is still way too optimistic, of course, but this is a fantasy series in the escapism sense, so that's fine.

If you make the Rebels and Tower loyalists a bunch of considerate, passionate deeply principled women... I think that just changes the arc. 

For one, it becomes hard to buy that Siuan and Moiraine decided to tell literally no one else about what they knew. 

And it becomes hard to see how such a group could get so deeply infiltrated by the Black Ajah, and how Mesaana had to barely twitch a finger to make things even worse. 

If you had a hard time keeping all the characters straight, I think good casting will help resolve that. When they're more than merely names on a page, their external tics and other features can be more memorable. But if Lelaine and Romanda turn from power hungry children so focused on their rivalry they are too blind to see a literal kid steal it all from them,  that'd make the show less good.

[Gertrude]

26 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

If you make the Rebels and Tower loyalists a bunch of considerate, passionate deeply principled women... I think that just changes the arc. 

...

If you had a hard time keeping all the characters straight, I think good casting will help resolve that. When they're more than merely names on a page, their external tics and other features can be more memorable. But if Lelaine and Romanda turn from power hungry children so focused on their rivalry they are too blind to see a literal kid steal it all from them,  that'd make the show less good.

Even in their pettiness, the issues matter. If that position is "Jane is ugly and she sat in my seat once so I refuse to work with her, even if we do have roughly the same goals" great. Just be more explicit than staring coldly at her and clutching your shawl.

I do think good casting will help sort some of this out.

I also do think that a lot of what Jordan did and the themes he presents are good - as you said, showing the Aes Sedai as petty, bickering highschoolers who can't see past their noses. My problem is the execution.  It's personal taste. 

[Werthead]

13 hours ago, SpaceChampion said:

That's my chief reason for thinking they're not going to cut Caemlyn and go straight to Tar Valon.  The showrunner is a fan.

Plus Caemlyn is a frequent location in the books.  It has to be established anyway, and deleting it sounds like playing havoc with the geography.  There is little reason to visit Tar Valon now instead of it.  I can see them do both, but not just the latter.

Wheel of Time does  have a key weakness in the early books that the story is very mobile, which is a weakness compared to Game of Thrones which establishes Winterfell and King's Landing as anchor-points of the story at the very start and the story stays in those locations for a long period of time (later Meereen and Dragonstone fulfil the same role), which is great for having standing sets.

WoT doesn't have that and there are budget limitations to having your entire story as a road trip without regular sets. If you want to establish a location early on as a continuous setting that will go on to appear throughout the entire show, Tar Valon makes more sense to do that than Caemlyn, if you have to choose (and even WoT's enormous budget means they likely have to choose, at least in Season 1 which also has to bear setup costs).

There is also the fact that the importance of Caemlyn in the early books is Jordan setting up the city as the location of the Last Battle. When they changed that in the last few books because the logistics didn't work, it becomes questionable if you need to have Caemlyn as a major location in the same way (I think you do eventually but not early on, because Rand obviously can't use Tar Valon as his base of operations; maybe he can use Cairhien as his sole base instead, which also helps the set issue).

[Gigei]

I'm glad they have such a big budget for the series. They also seem to have a good cast. It all hinges on how good the writing for the show is.

I'm excited about the Lan casting. The actor is the right age and looks like someone Nynaeve would fall hard for.  I haven't seen him in anything though. How good is he in Criminal Minds?

I also have high hopes for Rosamund Pike.

[Corvinus85]

6 hours ago, Werthead said:

Wheel of Time does  have a key weakness in the early books that the story is very mobile, which is a weakness compared to Game of Thrones which establishes Winterfell and King's Landing as anchor-points of the story at the very start and the story stays in those locations for a long period of time (later Meereen and Dragonstone fulfil the same role), which is great for having standing sets.

WoT doesn't have that and there are budget limitations to having your entire story as a road trip without regular sets. If you want to establish a location early on as a continuous setting that will go on to appear throughout the entire show, Tar Valon makes more sense to do that than Caemlyn, if you have to choose (and even WoT's enormous budget means they likely have to choose, at least in Season 1 which also has to bear setup costs).

There is also the fact that the importance of Caemlyn in the early books is Jordan setting up the city as the location of the Last Battle. When they changed that in the last few books because the logistics didn't work, it becomes questionable if you need to have Caemlyn as a major location in the same way (I think you do eventually but not early on, because Rand obviously can't use Tar Valon as his base of operations; maybe he can use Cairhien as his sole base instead, which also helps the set issue).

There's also the Emond's Field set which we know they've built. That means that either it's cheap enough to maintain it without actual use, or they intend to do more TR stuff earlier than in the books, meaning Perrin's return to the TR might happen sooner.

[Werthead]

2 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

There's also the Emond's Field set which we know they've built. That means that either it's cheap enough to maintain it without actual use, or they intend to do more TR stuff earlier than in the books, meaning Perrin's return to the TR might happen sooner.

The Emond's Field set was dismantled after shooting the first episode, so it sounds like they're not returning to it at least for Season 2 (otherwise you'd imagine they'd just leave it up).

[David Selig]

On 9/23/2020 at 1:33 PM, Werthead said:

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As of right now, they haven't filmed any material for Caemlyn apart from Base Gill's inn (which obviously doesn't need to be in Caemlyn, it could be moved to Tar Valon or anywhere else) and they have not cast most of the Trakands or Elaida. Elayne is up in the air, with a very strong actress candidate having been seen on set, but not announced yet, but she could be someone else.

 

Could you give a bit more info about the possible Elayne actress you mentioned, if the rumour is still not debunked?

[Werthead]

5 minutes ago, David Selig said:

Could you give a bit more info about the possible Elayne actress you mentioned, if the rumour is still not debunked?

The actress Kate Franz visited the set a while back in January. Officially she was visiting her friends, writer-producers Amanda Shurman (whom she worked with on The Blacklist) and showrunner Rafe Judkins and his partner Taylor Napier (who plays a Warder on the show), but some people thought that it was more likely she'd been cast and was trying to cover it up. Everyone immediately assumed Elayne based on her looks. Franz's boyfriend was also on Agents of SHIELD and is still good friends with Judkins from that and is also filming Wallander in Europe, so some assumed she might have been visiting him and fitted in a side-trip to Prague at the same time.

She's also 30 years old, the same age as the actress playing Min who was declared "too old" to be in a relationship with Rand (whose actor is 25), but oddly the same criticism has not been voiced here.

[David Selig]

Thanks for the info.

I doubt she was shooting scenes in January and still hasn't been announced, but who knows...

 

[SpaceChampion]

That's really doubtful she is Elayne.  Why of all characters keep that one secret?

I just saw a mention that some Eye of the World stuff are actually being pushed to later seasons.  Seems maybe the Caemlyn stuff from book 1 could be that.  Or that could be just most of the Fain stuff.

[fionwe1987]

Could they possibly be combining Cairhein and Caemlyn? Their politics get pretty intertwined anyways, and making the two cities into one, with the political insanity if Cairhein and the War of Succession of Andor would be a good way to make a tighter story.

 

This has many many implications of course, but this could mean Rand meets Elayne in book 2, when hunting for Fain.

[Werthead]

18 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

Could they possibly be combining Cairhein and Caemlyn? Their politics get pretty intertwined anyways, and making the two cities into one, with the political insanity if Cairhein and the War of Succession of Andor would be a good way to make a tighter story.

This has many many implications of course, but this could mean Rand meets Elayne in book 2, when hunting for Fain.

I hadn't heard that idea, but it's possible.

[Corvinus85]

13 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

Could they possibly be combining Cairhein and Caemlyn? Their politics get pretty intertwined anyways, and making the two cities into one, with the political insanity if Cairhein and the War of Succession of Andor would be a good way to make a tighter story.

 

This has many many implications of course, but this could mean Rand meets Elayne in book 2, when hunting for Fain.

I would hope that they keep each nation's cultural differences in the show. It's one of the allures of Jordan's world. Of course, if they attempt to show all the nations where the story moves, we run the risk of having a GoT repeat where entire regions/people are entirely forgotten for no reason.

I would think the possibility of Rand meeting Elayne could be with the Amyrlin's visit at Fal Dara. They could justify having a novice who is destined to be queen as part of the Amyrlin's entourage.

Or I could see a plot where Moiraine and the group meet up with the Aes Sedai escorting Logain, which could also include Elayne and her brothers. With Logain having a larger role, they could actually include a conversation between Logain and Rand that is more meaningful than Logain laughing through the streets of Caemlyn, and we only learn why much later. Moiraine intends to take the boys to Tar Valon, tensions rise when other Aes Sedai being suspecting Moiraine's purpose, especially Liandrin or other DFs. Then the dreams about the Eye start occurring, and Moiraine sneaks away with the group using a Waygate. (If they decide to do the Ways and the Black Wind)

[Gertrude]

I don't imagine they'd cut the Ways. They do use the portal stones and Way Gates to do a fair bit of traveling early on. Unless they go for timeskips and restructuring, I think it's just a handy way to handwave the traveling - plus it's such a flavorful element, and kind of a soft intro to TAR and Traveling. Also, I kind of don't want them to change anything about Perrin's 'last stand' in Emond Field. I do advocate for large changes generally, but some things were just written beautifully, that being one of them. (well, maybe not the spanking, but you get what I mean)

I believe there was a photo depicting *something* that could be a Way Gate or a Portal Stone - I'd bet they cut portal stones sooner than the Ways. I think they could be combined and the portal stones weirdness be folded into the Ways menace. 

[Werthead]

4 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

Or I could see a plot where Moiraine and the group meet up with the Aes Sedai escorting Logain, which could also include Elayne and her brothers. With Logain having a larger role, they could actually include a conversation between Logain and Rand that is more meaningful than Logain laughing through the streets of Caemlyn, and we only learn why much later. Moiraine intends to take the boys to Tar Valon, tensions rise when other Aes Sedai being suspecting Moiraine's purpose, especially Liandrin or other DFs. Then the dreams about the Eye start occurring, and Moiraine sneaks away with the group using a Waygate. (If they decide to do the Ways and the Black Wind)

The leaked auditions have a sequence where Moiraine, Lan and Nynaeve (at least, possibly with Perrin and Egwene as well) meet the Aes Sedai with Logain, including Liandrin.

Quote

I believe there was a photo depicting *something* that could be a Way Gate or a Portal Stone - I'd bet they cut portal stones sooner than the Ways. I think they could be combined and the portal stones weirdness be folded into the Ways menace. 

Yes, they've built a waygate and some scenes were filmed there for episode 6. The waygate was in open countryside rather than on a set or in a street in Prague, which is where you'd expect it to be for the entry scene in Caemlyn. Some have suggested they were filming the exit scene when they arrive in Shienar, which is also possible (but seems to go against the idea that they enter the portal in episode 6 and then the Ways are part of episode 7, but there doesn't seem to be hard evidence in favour of that).

We know Fal Dara is in because the showrunner was talking about how great the set was as they were building it.

[SpaceChampion]

Audio-only clip from WOT, with image that might be how weaving One Power is presented?

 

[Gertrude]

On 10/28/2020 at 12:41 PM, SpaceChampion said:

Audio-only clip from WOT, with image that might be how weaving One Power is presented?

I would be disappointed if that was how the weaves were depicted.

[Werthead]

A history of the previous attempts to adapt the books as a TV show.

This was quite cool, I got access to a whole bunch of information which I don't think was previously available, especially about the 2004 Warner Brothers attempt (which prior to this I didn't even know was a thing) and then the Universal project.

[Werthead]

A brief look at the swords.