The Wheel of Time TV Show 4: The Budget Rising [BOOK SPOILERS]

[fionwe1987]

38 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Egwene and Rand certainly aren't a couple in EotW. They've been sort-of promised to one another and there is an assumption that they will be married based on their parents' relationship with one another, but there's no indication they have ever kissed, or been together in a romantic sense. If they had, it would have come up, and it seems to be implied that Rand's first-ever sexual encounter is with Aviendha in TFoH (followed by later encounters with Min and Elayne). Pretty much the second they meet other people they're actually attracted to, they dismiss their relationship with one another as a mild teenage infatuation and move on rather quickly.

They most certainly are a couple, just not bethrothed, and just not sexually active to the point of fucking: 

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“Oh, why not?” Mat said resignedly. “Like your da said, the quicker it’s in the cellar. . . .” Picking up one of the casks of cider in both arms, he hurried toward the inn in a half trot. “Maybe Egwene is around. Watching you stare at her like a poleaxed ox will be as good as a badger any day.”         
Rand paused in the act of putting his bow and quiver in the back of the cart. He really had managed to put Egwene out of his mind. That was unusual in itself. But she would likely be around the inn somewhere. There was not much chance he could avoid her. Of course, it had been weeks since he saw her last.        
“Well?” Mat called from the front of the inn. “I didn’t say I would do it by myself. You aren’t on the Village Council yet.”
With a start, Rand took up a cask and followed. Perhaps she would not be there after all. Oddly, that possibility did not make him feel any better.

Chapter 1, Eye of the World.

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“Will you dance with me tomorrow?” That was not what he had meant to say. He did want to dance with her, but at the same time he wanted nothing so little as the uncomfortable way he was sure to feel while he was with her. The way he felt right then.

The corners of her mouth quirked up in a small smile. “In the afternoon,” she said. “I will be busy in the morning.”
         
 From the others came Perrin’s exclamation. “A gleeman!”
 Egwene turned toward them, but Rand put a hand on her arm. “Busy? How?”
         Despite the chill she pushed back the hood of her cloak and with apparent casualness pulled her hair forward over her shoulder. The last time he had seen her, her hair had hung in dark waves below her shoulders, with only a red ribbon keeping it back from her face; now it was worked into a long braid.
         He stared at that braid as if it were a viper, then stole a glance at the Spring Pole, standing alone on the Green now, ready for tomorrow. In the morning unmarried women of marriageable age would dance the Pole. He swallowed hard. Somehow, it had never occurred to him that she would reach marriageable age at the same time that he did.
         “Just because someone is old enough to marry,” he muttered, “doesn’t mean they should. Not right away.”
 
         “Of course not. Or ever, for that matter.”
 
         Rand blinked. “Ever?”
       
         “A Wisdom almost never marries. Nynaeve has been teaching me, you know. She says I have a talent, that I can learn to listen to the wind. Nynaeve says not all Wisdoms can, even if they say they do.”
     
         “Wisdom!” he hooted. He failed to notice the dangerous glint in her eye. “Nynaeve will be Wisdom here for another fifty years at least. Probably more. Are you going to spend the rest of your life as her apprentice?”
 
         “There are other villages,” she replied heatedly. “Nynaeve says the villages north of the Taren always choose a Wisdom from away. They think it stops her from having favorites among the village folk.”
 
         His amusement melted as fast as it had come. “Outside the Two Rivers? I’d never see you again.”
 
         “And you wouldn’t like that? You have not given any sign lately that you’d care one way or another.”

No one ever leaves the Two Rivers,” he went on. “Maybe somebody from Taren Ferry, but they’re all strange anyway. Hardly like Two Rivers folk at all.”
     
         Egwene gave an exasperated sigh. “Well, maybe I’m strange, too. Maybe I want to see some of the places I hear about in the stories. Have you ever thought of that?”
   
         “Of course I have. I daydream sometimes, but I know the difference between daydreams and what’s real.”
 
         “And I do not?” she said furiously, and promptly turned her back on him.
 
         “That wasn’t what I meant. I was talking about me. Egwene?”
 
         She jerked her cloak around her, a wall to shut him off, and stiffly walked a few paces away. He rubbed his head in frustration. How to explain? This was not the first time she had squeezed meanings from his words that he never knew were in them. In her present mood, a misstep would only make matters worse, and he was fairly sure that nearly anything he said would be a misstep.

He wants to dance with her, but he’s uncomfortable around her. She wants to have a career but is prodding him to see if he actually wants something together. He is scared of marriage, but hearing her think of never getting married bugs him.

I fail to see how you guys don’t see the page scream “couple”. Its all fairly tired and tropey, but they’re what you’d call high-school sweethearts beginning to realize maybe they’re not meant for each other.

Rand’s  thoughts after sleeping with Aviendha hint that they haven’t had sex, but his conversation with Elayne before they first kiss also makes it clear Rand isn’t new to kissing, and Egwene isn’t either, when she meets Gawyn in the 6th book.

They most certainly don’t split up the first instance they meet someone else. Egwene dances with a Tinker, Rand meets Elayne, they both feel guilty, then Galad and Lanfear happen, then Min and Egwene’s Accepted Test… it takes a while for them to see the writing on the wall, filled with angst and guilt and all the tropes of a teenage romance. 

And then there’s this, from Min:

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“What makes you think Mistress Alys has another name?”
         “Because she told me,” Min said, so patiently that he blushed again. “Not that she had a choice, I suppose. I saw she was . . . different . . . right away. When she stopped here before, on her way downcountry. She knew about me. I’ve talked to . . . others like her before.”
         “ ‘Saw’?” Rand said.
         “Well, I don’t suppose you’ll go running to the Children. Not considering who your traveling companions are. The Whitecloaks wouldn’t like what I do any more than they like what she does.”
         “I don’t understand.”
         “She says I see pieces of the Pattern.” Min gave a little laugh and shook her head. “Sounds too grand, to me. I just see things when I look at people, and sometimes I know what they mean. I look at a man and a woman who’ve never even talked to one another, and I know they’ll marry. And they do. That sort of thing. She wanted me to look at you. All of you together.”

Rand shivered. “And what did you see?”
         “When you’re all in a group? Sparks swirling around you, thousands of them, and a big shadow, darker than midnight. It’s so strong, I almost wonder why everybody can’t see it. The sparks are trying to fill the shadow, and the shadow is trying to swallow the sparks.” She shrugged. “You are all tied together in something dangerous, but I can’t make any more of it.”
         “All of us?” Rand muttered. “Egwene, too? But they weren’t after—I mean—”
         Min did not seem to notice his slip. “The girl? She’s part of it. And the gleeman. All of you. You’re in love with her.” He stared at her. “I can tell that even without seeing any images. She loves you, too, but she’s not for you, or you for her. Not the way you both want.”
         “What’s that supposed to mean?”
         “When I look at her, I see the same as when I look at . . . Mistress Alys. Other things, things I don’t understand, too, but I know what that means. She won’t refuse it.”

Unless you want to rewrite WoT so Min is wrong in her interpretation of her vision just this once, there’s no two ways about it. Rand and Egwene are in love with each other, and both want to be together, at this point in the story.

[Quijote Light]

34 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

They most certainly are a couple, just not bethrothed, and just not sexually active to the point of fucking: 

Chapter 1, Eye of the World.

He wants to dance with her, but he’s uncomfortable around her. She wants to have a career but is prodding him to see if he actually wants something together. He is scared of marriage, but hearing her think of never getting married bugs him.

I fail to see how you guys don’t see the page scream “couple”. Its all fairly tired and tropey, but they’re what you’d call high-school sweethearts beginning to realize maybe they’re not meant for each other.

Rand’s  thoughts after sleeping with Aviendha hint that they haven’t had sex, but his conversation with Elayne before they first kiss also makes it clear Rand isn’t new to kissing, and Egwene isn’t either, when she meets Gawyn in the 6th book.

They most certainly don’t split up the first instance they meet someone else. Egwene dances with a Tinker, Rand meets Elayne, they both feel guilty, then Galad and Lanfear happen, then Min and Egwene’s Accepted Test… it takes a while for them to see the writing on the wall, filled with angst and guilt and all the tropes of a teenage romance. 

And then there’s this, from Min:

Unless you want to rewrite WoT so Min is wrong in her interpretation of her vision just this once, there’s no two ways about it. Rand and Egwene are in love with each other, and both want to be together, at this point in the story.

None of the things you’ve written prove they’re a couple. 

[fionwe1987]

3 minutes ago, Quijote Light said:

None of the things you’ve written prove they’re a couple. 

Ok. How about you offer some proof that they're not?

[Quijote Light]

3 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Ok. How about you offer some proof that they're not?

Why? I didn’t make that point, Wert and Ran did. I was just pointing out that nothing you wrote contradicted their assertion. 

[fionwe1987]

6 minutes ago, Quijote Light said:

Why? I didn’t make that point, Wert and Ran did. I was just pointing out that nothing you wrote contradicted their assertion. 

Yes it did.

[Lord Varys]

I'll give the show a chance. This thing can only get better if they change things, so no pressure for a 'faithful adaptation' at my end.

The books were unreadable. And when I tried the audiobooks I only got into the fourth book when the slow pacing basically caused me to abandon it. And I hear it only gets worse as the story progresses. Slow pacing as such isn't all that bad ... but it is when pretty much nothing happens. Not to mention the repetive plot device of 'gang splits up, gang reunites at/around the finale of the book, gang splits up again at the beginning of the next novel' and, I guess, this continues ad infinitum nauseam.

I guess you had to be pretty young to get invested in this stuff. I remember trying the first book when I was around twenty ... but if I want to read the Lord of the Rings I can do that, no? I also remember having read the world book they had and liking the setting as such. I get why people might be invested in the world and its history.

The worst aspect, I guess, is the way the women are written, all that infantile braid-tugging is unbearable. They are all pretty much the same character.

That the show will likely do away with, and hopefully also with the silly gender essentialism thing.

[fionwe1987]

5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I'll give the show a chance. This thing can only get better if they change things, so no pressure for a 'faithful adaptation' at my end.

The books were unreadable. And when I tried the audiobooks I only got into the fourth book when the slow pacing basically caused me to abandon it. And I hear it only gets worse as the story progresses. Slow pacing as such isn't all that bad ... but it is when pretty much nothing happens. Not to mention the repetive plot device of 'gang splits up, gang reunites at/around the finale of the book, gang splits up again at the beginning of the next novel' and, I guess, this continues ad infinitum nauseam.

I guess you had to be pretty young to get invested in this stuff. I remember trying the first book when I was around twenty ... but if I want to read the Lord of the Rings I can do that, no? I also remember having read the world book they had and liking the setting as such. I get why people might be invested in the world and its history.

The worst aspect, I guess, is the way the women are written, all that infantile braid-tugging is unbearable. They are all pretty much the same character.

That the show will likely do away with, and hopefully also with the silly gender essentialism thing.

Man, that's so many bad guesses in a row, it's funny. 

[Corvinus85]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I guess you had to be pretty young to get invested in this stuff. I remember trying the first book when I was around twenty ... but if I want to read the Lord of the Rings I can do that, no? I also remember having read the world book they had and liking the setting as such. I get why people might be invested in the world and its history.

 First read them in college. Liked it a lot, but I understand some of your criticisms. I do mostly dislike Sanderson's take on it, because I think he is a mediocre writer, who really does put the same voice in many of his characters. Not sure I can really say the same about RJ (similar voices, maybe, but not the same voice)

[Werthead]

19 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

They most certainly are a couple, just not bethrothed, and just not sexually active to the point of fucking: 

The books say they might become a couple and others consider them well-matched and it's possible or even likely they will marry, and there is some kind of understanding between their parents that they would be fine with it, but that's about it. They are not in an actively romantic relationship. There's no cuddling or kissing or honest conversations, Rand can't even talk to her properly without having a weird existential breakdown.

If you want to say they're engaged in a very chaste kind of semi-courtship (or by our standards, dating but nothing has happened), sure, that's more or less accurate, but they are not in an actively romantic relationship and Egwene even notes that Rand is not able to commit to whether he wants that or not and also notes that she is pursuing basically another career goal even though she knows it will lead to them not being together.

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I fail to see how you guys don’t see the page scream “couple”. Its all fairly tired and tropey, but they’re what you’d call high-school sweethearts beginning to realize maybe they’re not meant for each other.

I can safely say in 25 years following the discourse in the fandom (including being a mod on the biggest WoT fansite for over a decade), this is the first time I've seen someone claiming vehemently that Rand-Egwene was an active thing. I've seen plenty of people asking what others thought and if there was something more. Amusingly, I've seen the exact same quotes produced to prove they were absolutely not in a relationship. Those quote prove they can't talk to one another, they have radically different interpretations of what their future holds, they haven't had sex and they go weeks or months on end without seeing one another.

 

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And then there’s this, from Min:

Unless you want to rewrite WoT so Min is wrong in her interpretation of her vision just this once, there’s no two ways about it. Rand and Egwene are in love with each other, and both want to be together, at this point in the story.

She specifically says that she has not had any visions about them, but she thinks they love each other (which they do, after a fashion) but are not right for one another, and then she notes her vision that Egwene will become Aes Sedai (although she doesn't realise it). Min does not say her visions show them being in a relationship.

[john]

The scene in the trailer seems to be in a bathhouse or something, so not necessarily indicating that they’re involved, but it would make sense given an ageing up of the characters. I would think it would be harder to portray the old fashioned propriety of the TR in the show where you can’t get in anybody’s head but they should certainly do something to indicate the gang are a bit unworldly.

I’m intrigued by this Steppin guy weeping over the ring, he looks cool. I hope they don’t just chuck that in to show the bond between Aes Sedai and Warders and it’s part of a bigger story.

[fionwe1987]

1 hour ago, Werthead said:

The books say they might become a couple and others consider them well-matched and it's possible or even likely they will marry, and there is some kind of understanding between their parents that they would be fine with it, but that's about it. They are not in an actively romantic relationship. There's no cuddling or kissing or honest conversations, Rand can't even talk to her properly without having a weird existential breakdown.

Can we get the actual quotes from the books that say what you say they do? If you don't have the time, no worries, but I'm currently rereading Eye of the World, and I can find nothing to say that those things are all that is said. The being semi-promised part is a side-effect of their obsession with each other, not the cause, as we saw with Ravens. 

And Rand notes that his inability to talk with Egwene was recent:

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For the past year she had been making him increasingly jittery whenever they were together. Worse, she did not even seem to be aware of it. No, he certainly did not want to add Egwene to his thoughts.

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If you want to say they're engaged in a very chaste kind of semi-courtship (or by our standards, dating but nothing has happened), sure, that's more or less accurate, but they are not in an actively romantic relationship and Egwene even notes that Rand is not able to commit to whether he wants that or not and also notes that she is pursuing basically another career goal even though she knows it will lead to them not being together.

Ok, the issue here is with the word chaste. We don't know that, firstly, but beyond that, just because it's chaste doesn't mean it isn't a romantic relationship. That's an abused construction of what a relationship means. Plenty of folk, me included, who grow up in sexually restrictive societies would find it mystifying to be told our romantic attachments as teenagers don't count if we weren't boinking every day.

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I can safely say in 25 years following the discourse in the fandom (including being a mod on the biggest WoT fansite for over a decade), this is the first time I've seen someone claiming vehemently that Rand-Egwene was an active thing.

Perhaps because no one thought to make the claim that they weren't? RJ was pretty clear himself they were. From the Wheel of Time Companion:

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Egwene al’Vere. An Emond’s Field woman born in 981 NE, the fifth daughter of Bran and Marin al’Vere. She and Rand were sweethearts.

From Google:

sweet·heart

/ˈswētˌhärt/

noun

plural noun: sweethearts

1. a person with whom someone is having a romantic relationship.

   "the pair were childhood sweethearts"

    

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I've seen plenty of people asking what others thought and if there was something more. Amusingly, I've seen the exact same quotes produced to prove they were absolutely not in a relationship. Those quote prove they can't talk to one another, they have radically different interpretations of what their future holds, they haven't had sex and they go weeks or months on end without seeing one another.

So the moment people begin to feel uncomfortable in a relationship, or have different views of it's future, stop, or don't have sex, or live in different locations during it's course, it both doesn't exist, and never existed before? I dunno who used those quotes to prove there was no relationship, but that makes their reading comprehension pretty suspect. 

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She specifically says that she has not had any visions about them,

No, she says that even without the vision, she could tell they were in love, but her vision is that they're not meant for each other the way they want to be. Rand is startled she knows he's in love, not hastening to deny it, and he and Egwene are both shown at times thinking about Min's vision and what it means, which doesn't make sense if they aren't in love, or interesting in being "meant for each other".

 

In the Great Hunt, when Egwene meets Elayne, and Elayne asks about Rand, Egwene gets jealous. When Elayne says there are two other girls Rand met during his travel who are in the Tower, here are Egwene's thoughts:

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“Two girls? Rand seems to meet a lot of girls.”

“Ummm?” Still drawing Egwene down the corridor, Elayne studied her. “Yes. Well. One of them is a lazy chit named Else Grinwell. I don’t think she will be here long. She shirks her chores, and she is always sneaking off to watch the Warders practice their swords. She says Rand came to her father’s farm, with a friend of his. Mat. It seems they put notions of the world beyond the next village into her head, and she ran away to come be an Aes Sedai.”

“Men,” Egwene muttered. “I dance a few dances with a nice boy, and Rand goes around looking like a dog with a sore tooth, but he—” She cut off as a man stepped into the hall ahead of them. Beside her, Elayne stopped, too, and her hand tightened on Egwene’s.

The she meets Min:

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She turned to Egwene. “Is Rand well?” Egwene’s mouth tightened. He should wear ram’s horns like a Trolloc, she thought angrily. “I was sorry when your inn caught fire, and I am glad Master Fitch was able to rebuild. Why have you come to Tar Valon? It’s clear you do not mean to be an Aes Sedai.” Min arched an eyebrow in what Egwene was sure was amusement.

“She likes him,” Elayne explained. “I know.” Min glanced at Egwene, and for an instant Egwene thought she saw sadness—or regret?—in her eyes.

So we're saying there's no romantic relationship, but they're both jealous when the other so much as meets some stranger? And what's Min regretful of, exactly, here?

 

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but she thinks they love each other (which they do, after a fashion) but are not right for one another,

No. She has seen that she'll be falling for Rand and ending up with him. Whether she also sees something in Egwene's future to indicate that, I don't know, but she has no judgment on whether they're right for each other, just that they won't end up together that way, even though Egwene loves Rand as Rand loves her.

Ugh this is all so sugary it's vomitous. 

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and then she notes her vision that Egwene will become Aes Sedai (although she doesn't realise it). Min does not say her visions show them being in a relationship.

Her visions show her they're in love. In a society that policies sex and the interactions of immature boys and girls, relationships don't look like the modern Western acts of dating, constantly hanging out and being highly sexually active in a non-discreet way. It's pretty offensive and complete wrong when you claim a relationship isn't a relationship unless it meets these standards. 

[Veltigar]

The trailer reminded me an awful lot of MTV's Shannara Chronicles series of a few years back. I hope the LOTR series will look better.

[fionwe1987]

Another quote:

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And then he came out into a dimly torch-lit corridor, and Egwene was creeping along it, pausing to peer into the storerooms she passed. Her dark hair, hanging to her waist, was caught back with a red ribbon, and she wore a goose-gray dress in the Shienaran fashion, trimmed in red. At the sight of her, sadness and loss rolled over him, worse than when he had chased Mat and Perrin and Loial away. He had grown up thinking he would marry Egwene one day; they both had. But now. . . .

This is from the Great Hunt, and it shows that it wasn't just that their parents wanted them married. They wanted it, too.

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“Too many know already,” he said. “Egwene, I wish things were different, but they aren’t. I wish. . . . Take care of yourself. And promise me you won’t choose the Red Ajah.” Tears blurred her vision as she threw her arms around him. “You take care of yourself,” she said fiercely into his chest. “If you don’t, I’ll—I’ll. . . .” She thought she heard him murmur, “I love you,” and then he was firmly unwrapping her arms, gently moving her away from him. He turned and strode away from her, almost running.

Rand even says "I love you", to Egwene on screen, which I'd forgotten about. 

Throughout the Great Hunt, Rand says quite a few times that if he could marry, he'd marry Egwene. And she keeps thinking miserably about how his channeling affects their chance of being married. 

None of this makes sense in your formulation of their relationship.

[Which Tyler]

Gotta say, this thread is the first time I've heard the theory that Rand and Egwene weren't "stepping out" before leaving Emond's Field.

 

OK, so I've never been a part of online fandom before, but merely read the books a few dozen times, but it's always seemed clear and obvious to me personally. Never knew it was contentious.

TBH, I also always expected it to be much more front and centre in any TV/film adaptation as A] they're being aged up, and B] it needs to be shown visually, not told with inner monologue.

 

[David Selig]

Personally I hope the show makes the Two Rivers customs a lot less prudish, not just because it would allow to show Rand and Egwene being in couple better (I don't need a sex scene, but there has to be some kissing at least) but more but also because they make little sense given the history of the world and presence of reliable contraceptive which is widely known.

[Corvinus85]

1 hour ago, Veltigar said:

The trailer reminded me an awful lot of MTV's Shannara Chronicles series of a few years back. I hope the LOTR series will look better.

I don't know, it appears that some of the elves in the LOTR series will have short hair, which is how all the elves in that Shannara series looked like. 

This looks better than Shannara. Everything from special effects to scope looks better. Maybe not a lot better, but still above that dreadful show.

[Lord Varys]

21 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

 First read them in college. Liked it a lot, but I understand some of your criticisms. I do mostly dislike Sanderson's take on it, because I think he is a mediocre writer, who really does put the same voice in many of his characters. Not sure I can really say the same about RJ (similar voices, maybe, but not the same voice)

Never got as far as the Sanderson books. But plot-wise the whole thing is just so derivative it is not something you can read if you have already read a lot of fantasy stuff. And then it is just infantile. If you want to spend your time reading stuff for adults - and that's something folks want to do when they approach forty - then this is really not (or rather: no longer) for you.

I think what did it for me was the point where the old Aes Sedai leader and her companion have to leave the White Tower and turn into giggling, badly-written teenage girls. That was the point where I drew the line in the sand ;-).

As for Rand and Egwene:

They weren't in an actual romantic relationship. It was expected and they expected to marry one day ... but that isn't the same as actually being in love if there is no actual romatic/sexual stuff going on.

If you count that as folks being a couple than preteen children telling each other that they are boyfriend and girlfriend are 'in a relationship', too.

That doesn't mean they couldn't have been in a relationship if they had actually kissed and actually told each other what exactly they felt and that they wanted 'to be together'. But so far as I recall the big point of their plot is that this never happens. And to be in a romantic relationship actually means you talk about it and make it clear, at least to each other if not the world at large, that you actually are in a romantic relationship.

Also to be clear here - being betrothed to marry isn't the same as being in love or a relationship. That just means you are in legal contract and one day you might end up in a marriage, but that doesn't have to include a romantic relationship.

[Poobah]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Never got as far as the Sanderson books. But plot-wise the whole thing is just so derivative it is not something you can read if you have already read a lot of fantasy stuff. And then it is just infantile. If you want to spend your time reading stuff for adults - and that's something folks want to do when they approach forty - then this is really not (or rather: no longer) for you.

You're entitled to your own tastes but it seems pretty fucking rude to take shots at and pass sweeping judgements on, probably a good chunk of posters in this thread.

The last time I fully read Wheel of Time I was in my late 20s and still found it enjoyable with a great deal of depth and many things of interest, Certainly my nostalgic attachment to it plays a part in colouring my appreciation for it (though in part I think as a series heavy with foreshowing and characters who take some understanding / don't view eachother or themselves and their motivations clearly it benefits greatly from hindsight) but if I thought it was an unreadable morass I wouldn't bother with it - there're plenty of books and other pieces of media that I've jettisoned as I've grown and evolved but Wheel of Time isn't and will never be one of them. Not to mention that Wheel of Time is somewhat foundational in modern epic fantasy and was appreciated by many writers I presume you esteem including GRRM who included a couple of references to Jordan in A Song of Ice and Fire and credited his cover quotation with doing a lot to help the success of A Game of Thrones.

[SpaceChampion]

Standard disclaimers apply.  The WOTup! channel on youtube claims a leak from the set is that Lews Therin has been cast, and it's a Black/Swedish actor named Alexander Karim.

He's been in a lot of things, notablye Zero Dark Thirty, Dying of the Light and Tyrant.

Showreel here:

Sounds like all his scenes are in the Old Tongue.

[Corvinus85]

Mad props to them if they've done the entire Dragonmount prologue in the Old Tongue. That means they've hired a linguist. Did we hear news of that?