The Wheel of Time TV Show 4: The Budget Rising [BOOK SPOILERS]

[fionwe1987]

1 hour ago, Corvinus85 said:

Oh yeah. Another example of Sanderson's mediocrity, and it lends credence to Lord Varys's criticism about so many female characters having the same voice. I hate when a character's intelligence is elevated simply by dumbing down everyone around them. Lazy, poor writing.

I'm not sure I follow. Lord Varys's claim is from maybe reading the first 4 books, at best. That can't be anything with Sanderson, and I'll happily argue with anyone who wants to claim "all the women are the same". It's almost like people think personality rests on external physical tics like smoothing skirts and folding arms under ones breasts. Jordan waay overuses that, but if that makes you think all the women have the same personality, then you have reading comprehension issues.

[David Selig]

Yeah, the "all the women are the same" claim is absurd to me.  The main female characters have very different personalities, and the second tier female characters are pretty diverse in personality too. The series has 2800+ named characters, most of them women, so certainly there are plenty with similar traits, especially among the ones who get less screen time, plus a large portion of them are from an organization (The White Tower) with a very distinct culture which weeds out during the training plenty of people who don't fit in it. But I can't take seriously people who claim that let's say Elayne and Nynaeve or Egwene and Faile are virtually the same character.

[Corvinus85]

1 hour ago, fionwe1987 said:

I'm not sure I follow. Lord Varys's claim is from maybe reading the first 4 books, at best. That can't be anything with Sanderson, and I'll happily argue with anyone who wants to claim "all the women are the same". It's almost like people think personality rests on external physical tics like smoothing skirts and folding arms under ones breasts. Jordan waay overuses that, but if that makes you think all the women have the same personality, then you have reading comprehension issues.

Maybe I shouldn't have mentioned Lord Varys, since yes he's only read the first few books. And I don't actually fully agree with his opinions.

That being said, note that I said voices (as does Lord Varys), not personalities. A character's voice is what we the readers experience from characters, and it encompasses both how character express themselves inwardly and outwardly. So that means that there is plenty of similarity in the voices of the WoT women. So many women, Aes Sedai and non-Aes Sedai often expressing similar opinions, using about the same mannerisms, about men is an example of similarity in their voices. But I don't agree with Varys that the voices are the same for the characters, but can't deny the similarities.

Then comes Sanderson, and not just for Aes Sedai, for almost all the characters the voices get even more similar to the point where there are scenes where I was genuinely confused as to who was speaking. And that is in part why that scene with the Hall and Egwene is so badly written. 

[Werthead]

There was another idea on Reddit about making Siuan Sea Folk rather than Tairen (hence the tattoos), with the idea that the Sea Folk storyline is highly prunable in an adaptation, so by making a major character from that culture, we can explore more of them through her, whilst if the TV show even loosely follows the books we will eventually see Tear and multiple other characters from there.

Interesting idea, but I think it'd be more advisable to simply cut the Sea Folk altogether, or maybe reduce them just to the subplot in The Shadow Rising.

[fionwe1987]

34 minutes ago, Werthead said:

There was another idea on Reddit about making Siuan Sea Folk rather than Tairen (hence the tattoos), with the idea that the Sea Folk storyline is highly prunable in an adaptation, so by making a major character from that culture, we can explore more of them through her, whilst if the TV show even loosely follows the books we will eventually see Tear and multiple other characters from there.

Interesting idea, but I think it'd be more advisable to simply cut the Sea Folk altogether, or maybe reduce them just to the subplot in The Shadow Rising.

Or simply combine Tear and the Sea Folk. That can work, too.

[fionwe1987]

1 hour ago, Corvinus85 said:

Maybe I shouldn't have mentioned Lord Varys, since yes he's only read the first few books. And I don't actually fully agree with his opinions.

That being said, note that I said voices (as does Lord Varys), not personalities. A character's voice is what we the readers experience from characters, and it encompasses both how character express themselves inwardly and outwardly. So that means that there is plenty of similarity in the voices of the WoT women. So many women, Aes Sedai and non-Aes Sedai often expressing similar opinions, using about the same mannerisms, about men is an example of similarity in their voices. But I don't agree with Varys that the voices are the same for the characters, but can't deny the similarities.

Then comes Sanderson, and not just for Aes Sedai, for almost all the characters the voices get even more similar to the point where there are scenes where I was genuinely confused as to who was speaking. And that is in part why that scene with the Hall and Egwene is so badly written. 

I dunno that once a character gets a distinctive enough thought process, and story arc, that those common mannerisms and offhand sexist thoughts shape my mental picture of those characters as much. The secondary and tertiary characters, sure. I can see that. But drop me in the midst of a generic Egwene scene vs a generic Elayne scene vs a generic Nynaeve scene and I'd be able to tell you who it is even if you block the names. 

Maybe that's just familiarity with the material, but I don't think so. I don't ever remembering thinking that Egwene and Nynaeve felt remotely similar. Their outlooks and thoughts are just nowhere close to each others.

[Corvinus85]

7 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Or simply combine Tear and the Sea Folk. That can work, too.

Tear - a feudalized land controlled by aristocracy that looks down on the commoners. Famed for their horses and the mighty fortress, the Stone; guardians of Callandor. 

Sea Folk - live on the seas more than on land; elect their leaders, and advancement is merit-based. Distinct roles in politics and social organization between men and women. Great traders, but generally don't mingle with the continental people.

I just don't see how combining these two peoples would work for the benefit of the story or world building. I'm with Wert on largely cutting out the Sea Folk, but I think showing a certain aspect of Sea Folk culture that we get in book 4 is probably a no-no. I would cut them out until the Bowl of Winds plot. 

[Jace, Extat]

25 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

Tear - a feudalized land controlled by aristocracy that looks down on the commoners. Famed for their horses and the mighty fortress, the Stone; guardians of Callandor. 

Sea Folk - live on the seas more than on land; elect their leaders, and advancement is merit-based. Distinct roles in politics and social organization between men and women. Great traders, but generally don't mingle with the continental people.

I just don't see how combining these two peoples would work for the benefit of the story or world building. I'm with Wert on largely cutting out the Sea Folk, but I think showing a certain aspect of Sea Folk culture that we get in book 4 is probably a no-no. I would cut them out until the Bowl of Winds plot. 

And yet they're putting nudity in The Lord of the Rings. 

Back in my day I only knew three things but I knew 'em true. 

1) Palpatine doesn't fuck

2) WoT is some kinky shit

3) J.R.R. Tolkien never saw a boob in his entire life

Now? Well, now I'm not sure if I know anything at all...

 

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

Maybe I shouldn't have mentioned Lord Varys, since yes he's only read the first few books. And I don't actually fully agree with his opinions.

That being said, note that I said voices (as does Lord Varys), not personalities. A character's voice is what we the readers experience from characters, and it encompasses both how character express themselves inwardly and outwardly. So that means that there is plenty of similarity in the voices of the WoT women. So many women, Aes Sedai and non-Aes Sedai often expressing similar opinions, using about the same mannerisms, about men is an example of similarity in their voices. But I don't agree with Varys that the voices are the same for the characters, but can't deny the similarities.

Then comes Sanderson, and not just for Aes Sedai, for almost all the characters the voices get even more similar to the point where there are scenes where I was genuinely confused as to who was speaking. And that is in part why that scene with the Hall and EgwMUSH ene is so badly written. 

Just to be clear here - I make pretty big generalizations because I last listened to this stuff years ago. It still remember some stuff but not as well as if I had read the books multiple times.

The mannerism I mean is that omnipresent tugging of braids, the characterization of nearly every woman as sullen, easily offended, and somewhat haughty who secretly desires to have a strong man in her life who tells her what to do. We do not only have that with many of the gang girls, but also, for instance, with Elayne's mother - it is Elayne? - the queen from that city with the female succession who ends up being dominated by her Forsaken lover. This whole thing is mirrored by the gender essentialist magical system which has fixed sex/gender traits rule how exactly the entire magical thing works - women are, at heart, meek and have to 'seduce' the Power, while men basically take what they want/need with force. And we do all know what that tells us for the overall relationship of boys and girls, right? Not to mention that - to my limited understanding - Jordan definitely sends the message that this world run by women is defective. Of course, the whole thing with the madness of the male Aes Sedai should be fixed, it is a real problem. But it also seems to be a problem that the world is run by 'out of control women'. That is a problem that has to be taken care of, too, because it is unnatural.

WoT has a lot female characters but very little variation among them. I liked Nynaeve at first, because she seemed to be somewhat different, but it is still a very narrow spectrum. And, hell, was I pissed when I realized that even the grown-up Aes Sedai women basically behave like teenagers. The impression I get is that this also dumbed down scheming and politicking.

[Gertrude]

7 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

Why? Veep is far closer to the reality of politics than House of Cards is. Everyone actually in politics will tell you that. 

That may be true, but it's not ALL Veep. And RJ didn't present it that way. I know that he was making a commentary. Kind of like how idiotically he presents the Game of Houses (as seen through Rand's eyes) But in the end he presents both as serious and with some real players, even if most of the people are just playing at it and thinking they are clever.

 

My example is this - in the show I want to see more of Tyrion as Hand of the King in KL, and less Tyrion in Essos making dick jokes. It doesn't have to be all KL Tyrion, just enough to make me believe it. That is one of the improvements I really want to see the show make.

[fionwe1987]

2 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

Tear - a feudalized land controlled by aristocracy that looks down on the commoners. Famed for their horses and the mighty fortress, the Stone; guardians of Callandor. 

Sea Folk - live on the seas more than on land; elect their leaders, and advancement is merit-based. Distinct roles in politics and social organization between men and women. Great traders, but generally don't mingle with the continental people.

I just don't see how combining these two peoples would work for the benefit of the story or world building. I'm with Wert on largely cutting out the Sea Folk, but I think showing a certain aspect of Sea Folk culture that we get in book 4 is probably a no-no. I would cut them out until the Bowl of Winds plot. 

I’m not saying there’s anything culturally similar about the two at all. But there’s limits number of cultures they can show, and the geography of the world is clearly going to change (already has with Tar Valon, as Wert showed). By combining, I definitely don’t mean mixing specific aspects of both.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Just to be clear here - I make pretty big generalizations because I last listened to this stuff years ago. It still remember some stuff but not as well as if I had read the books multiple times.

Or even once, it looks like. The really interesting question is why you’d want to comment based on half-remembered parts of a long series. How, exactly, do you think that’s reasonable? I can counter severel of your statements and inferences below with specific references and events from the books, but what is the point? You haven’t read those books, definitely aren’t going to, and I can make up an entire scene and you wouldn’t know I made it up. I’m just confused by your continued active discussion about a series you claim so little respect for. 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

The mannerism I mean is that omnipresent tugging of braids, the characterization of nearly every woman as sullen, easily offended, and somewhat haughty who secretly desires to have a strong man in her life who tells her what to do. We do not only have that with many of the gang girls, but also, for instance, with Elayne's mother - it is Elayne? - the queen from that city with the female succession who ends up being dominated by her Forsaken lover. This whole thing is mirrored by the gender essentialist magical system which has fixed sex/gender traits rule how exactly the entire magical thing works - women are, at heart, meek and have to 'seduce' the Power, while men basically take what they want/need with force. And we do all know what that tells us for the overall relationship of boys and girls, right? Not to mention that - to my limited understanding - Jordan definitely sends the message that this world run by women is defective. Of course, the whole thing with the madness of the male Aes Sedai should be fixed, it is a real problem. But it also seems to be a problem that the world is run by 'out of control women'. That is a problem that has to be taken care of, too, because it is unnatural.

By omnipresent tugging of braids, do you mean one single character who does this? That’s literally true. I believe a braid is tugged in a GRRM prequel as an homage to this. Is that what we’re defining omnipresence to mean, now?

7 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

That may be true, but it's not ALL Veep. And RJ didn't present it that way. I know that he was making a commentary. Kind of like how idiotically he presents the Game of Houses (as seen through Rand's eyes) But in the end he presents both as serious and with some real players, even if most of the people are just playing at it and thinking they are clever.

 

My example is this - in the show I want to see more of Tyrion as Hand of the King in KL, and less Tyrion in Essos making dick jokes. It doesn't have to be all KL Tyrion, just enough to make me believe it. That is one of the improvements I really want to see the show make.

Don’t get me wrong. I’m all for some of the Sitters getting somewhat savvier, and foregrounding the Black Ajah, who do seem savvier.

But I also want the powerful, moronic narcissists. That was a central point RJ was making. In a system that prioritizes influence by strength in the Power, something that has no merit value at all, absolute morons like Elaida and Lelaine are going to rise high and not deserve it at all.

Now, you can critique RJ for writing the Aes Sedai that way, and that was clearly a choice. We see other, more meritocratic systems among other groups of channelers. But he chose to write the Aes Sedai as being governed by some pretty dumbass customs and rules, and I don’t want the fallout of that going away.

If the politicking is going to be much better all around, they should change the Aes Sedai heirarchy system. I don’t know if they want to do that. Instead, increase the threat and capability of some specific Sitters to up the stakes, but keep the overall puffed up attitude of the Tower intact. That’d be my preference. 

[Gertrude]

2 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

But I also want the powerful, moronic narcissists. That was a central point RJ was making. In a system that prioritizes influence by strength in the Power, something that has no merit value at all, absolute morons like Elaida and Lelaine are going to rise high and not deserve it at all.

I want that too. I just think you can have both - you need both, otherwise the Aes Sedai are nothing but a clown show. I don't think RJ meant for them all to be clowns. You need the contrast so you can mourn the willful blindness and rigidity of the system and root for them to live up to the potential of their bad ass selves.

 

And I don't mind them introducing the Sea Folk with Tear either. It makes sense that they would have a lot of contact and let us get a glimpse of them so they have a more natural integration so it's not all new info when they do have a part in the story. They would feel less tacked on. If that takes some of the mystique away from the Sea Folk of the books, that's fine with me - it seems natural that they would have a presence in a major port city.

[Gertrude]

5 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

I think showing a certain aspect of Sea Folk culture that we get in book 4 is probably a no-no.

I agree but for entirely different reasons. If the Sea Folk are lounging, sure, let them loose. When they are working and being active? Bind that shit down, it gets painful.

[fionwe1987]

Moving on from the Aes Sedai... I wonder if they'll merge Logain and Taim?

Two False Dragons seems unworkable on the show, to me. In the books, they get long and distinctive enough arcs, but are showing up sparsely enough that it works.

Already, we see Logain is going to escape, which he never does, whereas Taim does escape. Wondering if the expansion of Logain's story means he gets tempted by Demandred, doesn't take up him on his offer, and gets gentled anyway, or something?

Or he does take him up on it, but later gets a redemption arc? Any of those will be big big changes from the books. Not sure how I'd feel about it, but they may end up doing something like this.

[Veltigar]

On 9/5/2021 at 11:24 PM, Corvinus85 said:

I don't know, it appears that some of the elves in the LOTR series will have short hair, which is how all the elves in that Shannara series looked like. 

This looks better than Shannara. Everything from special effects to scope looks better. Maybe not a lot better, but still above that dreadful show.

I think you are being somewhate disingenous to the Shannara Chronicles trailer. The show was shit, but the trailer for me was on a par with the WoT stuff unfortunately. I'm betting visually WoT will be better due to higher budget and advances in technology, but this trailer didn't give me much to work with.

Then again, I'm also not the audience for this show I suppose. I thought the books were dreadful when I read them many years ago, so I think this show starts at a disadvantage for me.

[fionwe1987]

I watched the Shannara Trailer for the first time to see what was comparable, and I'm now even more confused than before I watched it. What's the similarity again?

[Veltigar]

1 minute ago, fionwe1987 said:

I watched the Shannara Trailer for the first time to see what was comparable, and I'm now even more confused than before I watched it. What's the similarity again?

Both trailers convey the vibe of "generic fantasy setting " 

[fionwe1987]

4 minutes ago, Veltigar said:

Both trailers convey the vibe of "generic fantasy setting " 

Huh. Generic fantasy sure looks widely divergent, based on these two trailers. The vibe and energies of the shows look so different I'm left scratching my head. 

 

[IFR]

2 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

Huh. Generic fantasy sure looks widely divergent, based on these two trailers. The vibe and energies of the shows look so different I'm left scratching my head. 

 

You're an ardent and very vocal supporter of the books and the adaptation of the books. I think you may be just *slightly* prejudiced in viewing the trailer favorably. 

Lots of picturesque fantasy locations, glowy magic, beautiful young adults with fierce expressions talking of portentous things, warriors doing their crazy combat maneuvers, and a huge emphasis on "look everyone, we have strong women!" benevolent sexism. 

[Corvinus85]

3 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

Moving on from the Aes Sedai... I wonder if they'll merge Logain and Taim?

Two False Dragons seems unworkable on the show, to me. In the books, they get long and distinctive enough arcs, but are showing up sparsely enough that it works.

Already, we see Logain is going to escape, which he never does, whereas Taim does escape. Wondering if the expansion of Logain's story means he gets tempted by Demandred, doesn't take up him on his offer, and gets gentled anyway, or something?

Or he does take him up on it, but later gets a redemption arc? Any of those will be big big changes from the books. Not sure how I'd feel about it, but they may end up doing something like this.

Better that they combine Taim with Demandred, as RJ originally intended. 

I think what we see in the trailer is a development of the brief mentions that battles were fought and sisters were killed to capture Logain, only changed in such a way to involve some of the main characters. So Logain escapes, some Aes Sedai die, but he is recaptured, taken to the Tower and gentled.

Though maybe this arc could take the entire season, and they could borrow from the Taim story the part where he bewilderingly is defeated and captured because the real Dragon is now active. No more room for false Dragons. But I would like it if the show kept in that the frequency of false Dragons showing up had increased in the preceding years to worry people about what is coming.

I do hope that we get a captured Logain seeing Rand and laughing maniacally.