The Wheel of Time TV Show 4: The Budget Rising [BOOK SPOILERS]

[Gertrude]

7 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

Better that they combine Taim with Demandred, as RJ originally intended.  

No one will convince me he didn’t. And the plus with this is that maybe we don’t see Shara in the last battle.

But whatever they do, I think they need both Taim and Logain. Since they are expanding Logain’s role, he needs something to do. Without the leadership struggle, there’s a lot of thumb twiddling. In the books, Logain feels like an afterthought, but the show could believably develop him into a strong leader to fulfill his promise of glory. I always expected more from Logain and it never really materialized. It feels like Androl stole a lot of Logain’s story.

[fionwe1987]

44 minutes ago, IFR said:

You're an ardent and very vocal supporter of the books and the adaptation of the books. I think you may be just *slightly* prejudiced in viewing the trailer favorably. 

Yes, but that cuts both ways, no?

44 minutes ago, IFR said:

Lots of picturesque fantasy locations, glowy magic, beautiful young adults with fierce expressions talking of portentous things, warriors doing their crazy combat maneuvers, and a huge emphasis on "look everyone, we have strong women!" benevolent sexism. 

I tried to look for beautiful young adults talking, in the trailer. Apart from Nynaeve in the very first scene, not a one of them speaks, let alone says anything portentious. Not that this determines anything about the question at hand, but can we at least be accurate?  

27 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

Better that they combine Taim with Demandred, as RJ originally intended. 

Asbolutely. Unless they combine him with Logain, there’s no way they shouldn’t make Taim be Demandred.

7 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

No one will convince me he didn’t. And the plus with this is that maybe we don’t see Shara in the last battle.

Yeah, no Shara makes sense. And no one should be able to convince you. We know from the notes now that RJ changed his mind on this due to the fans figuring it out.

7 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

But whatever they do, I think they need both Taim and Logain. Since they are expanding Logain’s role, he needs something to do. Without the leadership struggle, there’s a lot of thumb twiddling. In the books, Logain feels like an afterthought, but the show could believably develop him into a strong leader to fulfill his promise of glory. I always expected more from Logain and it never really materialized. It feels like Androl stole a lot of Logain’s story.

I can see the case for both, but maybe they have Taim be Demandred from the beginning, intentionally confusing things. That’ll make it better.

And Android definitely got too much screen time, and absolutely stole storylines meant for Logain.

[Corvinus85]

12 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

No one will convince me he didn’t. And the plus with this is that maybe we don’t see Shara in the last battle.

But whatever they do, I think they need both Taim and Logain. Since they are expanding Logain’s role, he needs something to do. Without the leadership struggle, there’s a lot of thumb twiddling. In the books, Logain feels like an afterthought, but the show could believably develop him into a strong leader to fulfill his promise of glory. I always expected more from Logain and it never really materialized. It feels like Androl stole a lot of Logain’s story.

WHY DID YOU SAY THAT NAME?  I was so annoyed in AMoL when Logain was a total dickhead and his sole development was that maybe he shouldn't have tried to fight Demandred on his own. smh

[Gertrude]

Logain really was a dick, wasn’t he?

[fionwe1987]

6 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

WHY DID YOU SAY THAT NAME?  I was so annoyed in AMoL when Logain was a total dickhead and his sole development was that maybe he shouldn't have tried to fight Demandred on his own. smh

There was a little bit more than that, but yes. The whole thing was nuts.

Frankly, I’d have Logain finish off Taim, and Egwene finish off Demandred. It made very little sense that Lan fought him and survived more than a few miliseconds. 

[IFR]

13 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Yes, but that cuts both ways, no?

Uh...I guess? If someone hated the series then I would say they are prejudiced to view the trailer unfavorably. I hope you aren't implying that I hate the series. As I've said before, I thought the books were fine. I wouldn't have read all of them if I didn't like them well enough. And I hope for the best for the series.

13 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

I tried to look for beautiful young adults talking, in the trailer. Apart from Nynaeve in the very first scene, not a one of them speaks, let alone says anything portentious. Not that this determines anything about the question at hand, but can we at least be accurate?

Haha, have it your way. I only saw the trailer once. Let me correct myself. Beautiful people saying portentous things while beautiful young adults assume very serious and dramatic expressions.

And I forgot another similarity: The fantasy monsters!

[Poobah]

1 hour ago, Corvinus85 said:

WHY DID YOU SAY THAT NAME?  I was so annoyed in AMoL when Logain was a total dickhead and his sole development was that maybe he shouldn't have tried to fight Demandred on his own. smh

1 hour ago, Gertrude said:

Logain really was a dick, wasn’t he?

Yeah Logain was always a dick, long before Sanderson got his hands on him. He declared himself Dragon - knowing he obviously wasn't - and started a war as a result that killed a bunch of people - I don't think his motivations are ever really discussed (the whole thing of "the red ajah made me do it" was certainly a fabrication of Siuan) but it doesn't exactly say anything good about his character. And while he's no darkfriend in the glimpses we get of him from Jordan later he's still hungry for power and glory, and seems rather resentful towards Rand - showing some Gawyn levels of denial with his refusal to believe that Rand (and Nynaeve to give her her due) cleansed Saidin.

I actually liked his arc in AMoL, and if not for the omnipresence of the hilariously Sandersonian Androl would've considered it one of the more Jordan parts of the book with its more... I dunno how to put this exactly: when Sanderson sits down and says "I'm gonna write a character with x mental health issue" he just writes an essay about what it feels like to live with that thing from inside that character's head every few chapters, whereas Jordan just writes the depression, anxiety, paranoia, PTSD, imposter syndrome, and so on into the characters in WoT without any of that "I did a ton of 21st century therapy and I'm really self aware" type of internal monologuing. I got much more of that feeling from Logain in AMoL who's clearly suffering from his imprisonment and torture and feels an overwhelming need to feel safe, to gain power, to make sure no one can ever hurt him or cage him again - he doesn't talk about it he just lives it, and so his struggle and ultimate decision to give up on that to do the right thing and save others instead of himself feels far more real to me than most Sanderson style "big character emotional (and also power) growth / level up" moments.

Androl is a weird character to me. I think the concept is cool. He does work as a plausible to exist character within the universe of WoT - Jordan already established that one Kinswoman with the exceptional Talent for shielding to the point that she pretty much defies all known rules about shielding with her Talent - and in theory I like the idea. And yet he really does feel incredibly out of place. It is somewhat of the issue with the One Power where in theory it can be used to do all kinds of inventive and exotic things, and if you use it smartly especially with modern knowledge of how the world works there're so many "broken" things that one can do, and yet all our main characters, both protagonist and antagonist who are all on the world-destroyer level of power and have access to an unlimited toolkit of weaves in theory never actually do anything more than lob slightly larger than average basic elemental spells at one another. Perhaps if the rest of the cast did more with their magic then he wouldn't feel so out of place.

The thing that really bothers me about him though is that Sanderson linked him so tightly with Pevara who is unequivocally one of my favourite characters. In the few chapters Jordan gave her he wrote a unique, competent, and interesting character and did a bunch of work to show an entirely different side to the Red Ajah far from the misandrist morons and darkfriends that they'd almost universally been shown as prior to his introduction of her. She's someone I really hope is kept.

[Werthead]

Quote

Already, we see Logain is going to escape, which he never does, whereas Taim does escape. Wondering if the expansion of Logain's story means he gets tempted by Demandred, doesn't take up him on his offer, and gets gentled anyway, or something?

Reportedly not.

Spoiler

From set reports, Logain is recaptured during that sequence, taken to Tar Valon and gentled. That's why Moiraine is back in the Tower again.

You can see a bit of that in the trailer.

Spoiler

Moiraine has Logain bound with the Power and a furious Steppin - his Aes Sedai having just been killed - tries to kill Logain but is stopped. 

 

[fionwe1987]

1 hour ago, Poobah said:

Yeah Logain was always a dick, long before Sanderson got his hands on him. He declared himself Dragon - knowing he obviously wasn't - and started a war as a result that killed a bunch of people - I don't think his motivations are ever really discussed (the whole thing of "the red ajah made me do it" was certainly a fabrication of Siuan) but it doesn't exactly say anything good about his character. And while he's no darkfriend in the glimpses we get of him from Jordan later he's still hungry for power and glory, and seems rather resentful towards Rand - showing some Gawyn levels of denial with his refusal to believe that Rand (and Nynaeve to give her her due) cleansed Saidin.

 

1 hour ago, Poobah said:

I actually liked his arc in AMoL, and if not for the omnipresence of the hilariously Sandersonian Androl would've considered it one of the more Jordan parts of the book with its more... I dunno how to put this exactly: when Sanderson sits down and says "I'm gonna write a character with x mental health issue" he just writes an essay about what it feels like to live with that thing from inside that character's head every few chapters, whereas Jordan just writes the depression, anxiety, paranoia, PTSD, imposter syndrome, and so on into the characters in WoT without any of that "I did a ton of 21st century therapy and I'm really self aware" type of internal monologuing. I got much more of that feeling from Logain in AMoL who's clearly suffering from his imprisonment and torture and feels an overwhelming need to feel safe, to gain power, to make sure no one can ever hurt him or cage him again - he doesn't talk about it he just lives it, and so his struggle and ultimate decision to give up on that to do the right thing and save others instead of himself feels far more real to me than most Sanderson style "big character emotional (and also power) growth / level up" moments.

That's an interesting take. If I ever get back to aMoL, I'll need to keep an eye out for this. But my biggest issue with Logain was that there was barely enough of him in the last book. And some weird misses with characters forgetting they've met/had extensive interaction. 

I do agree on the mental health thing. The neuroses of RJ's characters are visible, but not explicitly stated out. 

1 hour ago, Poobah said:

Androl is a weird character to me. I think the concept is cool. He does work as a plausible to exist character within the universe of WoT - Jordan already established that one Kinswoman with the exceptional Talent for shielding to the point that she pretty much defies all known rules about shielding with her Talent - and in theory I like the idea. And yet he really does feel incredibly out of place. It is somewhat of the issue with the One Power where in theory it can be used to do all kinds of inventive and exotic things, and if you use it smartly especially with modern knowledge of how the world works there're so many "broken" things that one can do, and yet all our main characters, both protagonist and antagonist who are all on the world-destroyer level of power and have access to an unlimited toolkit of weaves in theory never actually do anything more than lob slightly larger than average basic elemental spells at one another. Perhaps if the rest of the cast did more with their magic then he wouldn't feel so out of place.

That isn't true. They don't constantly invent new stuff, like characters in Sanderson's books do. But the main characters do do cool and inventive things using the Power and within it's rules. They're just sparse.

And yes Androl having a Talent for gateways is plausible. What's not is him pretty much using only that weave. Even most of the "inventive" stuff Sanderson has him doing is plausible. There's just too much, too fast. It's hugely unearned. 

RJ had Egwene spend pretty much a whole book figuring out Traveling, it's different pieces, before she puts it together. It's not a "and in that moment, she knew what to do".

Same with Nynaeve and healing Stilling. She doggedly researches it for chapters and chapters, despite everyone telling her she's aiming for something impossible, and when it finally clicks, it feels earned. 

Cleansing saidin, too, is something Rand had to do quite a bit of thinking on, and get injured in a particularly awful way to put the pieces together.

None of that counts, for Androl. His making giant Gateways for his strength level is all fine. But the ways he uses that are just stuff he pulls out because he's a suuuuper genius. They're all ideas fans and readers have had. Including, I'm sure, Brandon. But he is unable to write a character who can think things through and reach that answer, instead of just divining it when convenient.

1 hour ago, Poobah said:

The thing that really bothers me about him though is that Sanderson linked him so tightly with Pevara who is unequivocally one of my favourite characters. In the few chapters Jordan gave her he wrote a unique, competent, and interesting character and did a bunch of work to show an entirely different side to the Red Ajah far from the misandrist morons and darkfriends that they'd almost universally been shown as prior to his introduction of her. She's someone I really hope is kept.

I did like Pevara, and also Sylviana. Tarna was another interesting Red. Complicating the story of the Red Ajah was a good choice.

1 hour ago, Werthead said:

Reportedly not.

  Hide contents

From set reports, Logain is recaptured during that sequence, taken to Tar Valon and gentled. That's why Moiraine is back in the Tower again.

You can see a bit of that in the trailer.

  Hide contents

Moiraine has Logain bound with the Power and a furious Steppin - his Aes Sedai having just been killed - tries to kill Logain but is stopped. 

 

That's good, then. 

[Corvinus85]

Androl is a Gary Sue. Besides his super talent that allows him to often surprise his enemies, he's also a man of the world, having been a soldier, a merchant, a tanner, or whatever else. He has experience in whatever Sanderson needed him to have experience to move along some dialogue scene or the plot itself.

[karaddin]

Is it widely thought that Taimandred was the only candidate for Asmodean assassin that was actually even remotely obvious at the time? I saw a couple of people on Reddit claiming that not only was it always meant to have been Graendal but that it was indeed obvious at the time as claimed and that's so far away from my experience of reading the books lol

[Free Northman Reborn]

21 minutes ago, karaddin said:

Is it widely thought that Taimandred was the only candidate for Asmodean assassin that was actually even remotely obvious at the time? I saw a couple of people on Reddit claiming that not only was it always meant to have been Graendal but that it was indeed obvious at the time as claimed and that's so far away from my experience of reading the books lol

In RJ’s notes, made public after his death, it is revealed that Taim was originally Demandred. There is some confusion over when RJ changed his mind on this, with at least some indication that it happened mid-book in LoC, which is damn weird given that parts of LoC clearly indicate Demandred as Taim’s impersonator, while the Prologue disproves it. It suggests the Prologue was written well after the rest of the book, but RJ didn’t make the effort to go back and update the rest of the book, or else decided to leave the original hints in there as deliberate misdirection.

 

[fionwe1987]

30 minutes ago, karaddin said:

Is it widely thought that Taimandred was the only candidate for Asmodean assassin that was actually even remotely obvious at the time? I saw a couple of people on Reddit claiming that not only was it always meant to have been Graendal but that it was indeed obvious at the time as claimed and that's so far away from my experience of reading the books lol

Graendal had been narrowed down, in the boards, that much I remember.

I was convinced it was her, at least. I was also a loud proponent of her surviving Rand's balefire WMD strike. 

She's RJ's preferred Forsaken. She's shown as wily enough to get away with a lot, and even when temporarily disadvantaged, she is shown to have enough contingencies and alternate plans in place for her to survive.

She made the most sense, stylistically, for the silent, no traces assassination. And she had the best chain of evidence. RJ actually gave that away in the Prologue of the next book, where he also clearly eliminated Demandred. So while not exactly "intuitively obvious", as he claimed, it was solved by many people. It was a good game of clue.

[karaddin]

I can accept it being her that did it, it's specifically the idea that it could be considered obvious that I find ridiculous. And if it takes a game of clue, it's not obvious lol.

So my objection is really just to the meta textual comment, not what was portrayed in the book. I honestly can't remember what I thought at the time, other than her not being my pick - it's been a long time though. I do think there's a comment from Rand shivering at saidar usage at around the same time that's a nod to it having been a woman? But is not remotely definitive either.

[Corvinus85]

I only got into WoT around the time when the 11th book was released. So I didn't spend that much time on the boards, compared to here, at least. I have no idea what discussions were had around Asmodean's death, and I have no idea what clues were peppered in the books to make Graendal the obvious answer. Even now, after a few re-reads, I still don't know.

[fionwe1987]

1 hour ago, karaddin said:

I can accept it being her that did it, it's specifically the idea that it could be considered obvious that I find ridiculous. And if it takes a game of clue, it's not obvious lol.

So my objection is really just to the meta textual comment, not what was portrayed in the book. I honestly can't remember what I thought at the time, other than her not being my pick - it's been a long time though. I do think there's a comment from Rand shivering at saidar usage at around the same time that's a nod to it having been a woman? But is not remotely definitive either.

I think the "intuitively obvious" comment was obviously tongue in cheek. Some rabid fans got it right, and since that happened, RJ just refused to answer with anything but that statement, and pointied to the fact that people got it right. Since several factions firmly believed they were the ones who got it right, this didn't solve the mystery, but kept it alive as a discussion point, probably way longer than it truly needed to be.

As for the clues, the biggest is that in the Prologue of Lord of Chaos, Demandred visits the Dark One and says Asmodean has disappeared, and based on the conversation that follows, he thinks that the Dark One's seems to know more of Asmodean than he does. Which doesn't make sense if he secretly killed Asmodean, because then, he knows more than the Dark One, not the other way around.

In that same convo, he mentions that Moghedien was to meet Graendal that same day (ie the day Rahvin died and Asmodean "disappeared"), but failed to show.

This is the big clue. The Forsaken are shown meeting often in tel'aran'rhiod. And that's where Nynaeve captures Moghedien and takes her to Caemlyn to help Rand.

The chain of events, in my head, at least, is that when Moghedien didn't show, Graendal looked for her in the World of Dreams, which is rather easy to do, you just focus on what you Need. That would have taken her to the Caemlyn Palace, where she'd have been able to witness Rand's battle with Rahvin, and seen first hand how powerful Rand had gotten.

To me, it makes sense that Graendal saw that and realized Asmodean's continued aid to Rand would make him too well trained and too dangerous, so she killed him to cut that threat short.

We know she knew Asmodean was Rand's teacher. We know she knew where Rahvin was. We can guess she knew Lanfear had plans to draw Rand to Caemlyn, because one of her big distinctions is that barring Demandred, she figures out exactly where each Forsaken is, and she figures out their major plans fairly often. And we know she was to meet Moghedien on the day of Asmodean's death, and Moghedien missed the meeting, because she was captive and contributed to Rahvin's death, at the same location, on the same day.

It's nothing close to intuitively obvious, but the clues were there. 

[Myrddin]

By the time the mystery was revealed, I had long since stopped caring.

But thank you, Fionwe. Your reasoning explains it well and makes sense to me. I'm about to start book 5 in my re-read, something I haven't done since book 11, I think.

[SpaceChampion]

I missed it earlier but a few weeks back WoTUp believes Elayne Trakand has been cast