The Wheel of Time TV Show 4: The Budget Rising [BOOK SPOILERS]

[Myrddin]

Billy Zane was not cast?!?

I am disappoint.

[fionwe1987]

Interesting casting. But is this just for the Prologue scene as a flashback, or are they going to have a disembodied ghost-Lews Therin talking in Rand's head, eventually? How they'll depict the internal state of Rand's creeping madness is going to be a big challenge for the series, I feel.

[Which Tyler]

33 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Interesting casting. But is this just for the Prologue scene as a flashback, or are they going to have a disembodied ghost-Lews Therin talking in Rand's head, eventually? How they'll depict the internal state of Rand's creeping madness is going to be a big challenge for the series, I feel.

Matt's implanted memories as well - not sure how to do that without just relying on exposition to tell, not show

[fionwe1987]

1 hour ago, Which Tyler said:

Matt's implanted memories as well - not sure how to do that without just relying on exposition to tell, not show

Those are memories, so easier to show as flashbacks when needed. With Rand, the situation is different, I feel. It's a voice in his head. I don't see them making it a disembodied voice. And if the LTT actor is to be around, visible only to Rand, that has its own issues. 

[Myrddin]

2 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

Those are memories, so easier to show as flashbacks when needed. With Rand, the situation is different, I feel. It's a voice in his head. I don't see them making it a disembodied voice. And if the LTT actor is to be around, visible only to Rand, that has its own issues. 

It worked well for Six and Baltar. A bit different, yes, but a similar television convention.  It's be the reactions of other characters who glimpse Rand talking to himself that will sell it. Or Rand laughing. Or Rand whistling. 

That said, I'd prefer just a voice, tbh. Ideally, they'll use Lews Therin's visual presence sparingly, if at all. Just enough to remind us it's the sae guy from the prologue. A glimpse in the shadows. A reflection in a mirror.

[Lord Varys]

20 hours ago, Poobah said:

You're entitled to your own tastes but it seems pretty fucking rude to take shots at and pass sweeping judgements on, probably a good chunk of posters in this thread.

Well, I intend to give the show a try. In fact, I'm looking forward to that show because I didn't finish the books, didn't like those I read/listened to, and hope there are significant diversions from the source material to improve plot and characterization in the show.

And my point was that I cannot bring myself to read or enjoy stuff like that anymore. And I daresay that I'm not alone in this. I could be wrong, but I don't see where the harm is in offering such an opinion. Most people who seem to like WoT in this thread apparently didn't read the series first around forty nor after they have read a lot of adult stuff. And I also expect most people here secretly agree with me that they would not bother with or get deeply invested in Robert Jordan-like stuff if they were to read it now without having any emotional connection to it.

And to be clear: I'm very much infantile in the same way with stuff I first read as a youth (for me it is the bad Star Wars EU novels and really bad German horror pulp magazines and audio plays) ... but there comes a point where you have to face the fact that you cannot really offer this stuff to readers of a certain age with a certain reading experience. At least not with a straight face.

That doesn't mean you cannot still like that stuff if you do. Me not liking it has nothing to do with your preferences.

20 hours ago, Poobah said:

The last time I fully read Wheel of Time I was in my late 20s and still found it enjoyable with a great deal of depth and many things of interest, Certainly my nostalgic attachment to it plays a part in colouring my appreciation for it (though in part I think as a series heavy with foreshowing and characters who take some understanding / don't view eachother or themselves and their motivations clearly it benefits greatly from hindsight) but if I thought it was an unreadable morass I wouldn't bother with it - there're plenty of books and other pieces of media that I've jettisoned as I've grown and evolved but Wheel of Time isn't and will never be one of them. Not to mention that Wheel of Time is somewhat foundational in modern epic fantasy and was appreciated by many writers I presume you esteem including GRRM who included a couple of references to Jordan in A Song of Ice and Fire and credited his cover quotation with doing a lot to help the success of A Game of Thrones.

I take you at your word that Robert Jordan was a great influence on modern fantasy. But sometimes - or rather often - the student overcomes the master. Just because something is a classic doesn't mean it is (or remains) a good classic.

And to be clear: I think there is some interesting stuff in WoT. The setting and the world are pretty intriguing. There are interesting elements (for instance, I really wanted to know what the point of the travelling people with the wagons was). There were interesting characters, too - I liked both Mat and Perrin pretty much, and there certainly is character development in this series and definitely see how one can get invested in all that. I also liked the plot about the King Arthur descendants from across the sea.

The problem for me is that I'm far too old to actually get invested in those things if they are presented in such a manner, i.e. badly structured novels, a creeping plot, badly written female characters who seem to be effectively all the same character (in the sense that they have the same manierism and all seem to react similarly or the same in similar situations), gender essentialism in the magical metaphysics, and lots of blatant ripoffs from other stories - the first book is far too much like LotR, Rand is Muad'dib to WoT's own Fremen, etc.

[Corvinus85]

32 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And to be clear: I think there is some interesting stuff in WoT. The setting and the world are pretty intriguing. There are interesting elements (for instance, I really wanted to know what the point of the travelling people with the wagons was). There were interesting characters, too - I liked both Mat and Perrin pretty much, and there certainly is character development in this series and definitely see how one can get invested in all that. I also liked the plot about the King Arthur descendants from across the sea.

How far did you get? The first 3 books? Regarding your comment about the travelling people, you stopped one book too soon. I'm not going to spoil it for you, suffice to say that I hope the show doesn't mess up some of the best stuff RJ wrote arguably in the entire series.

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

How far did you get? The first 3 books? Regarding your comment about the travelling people, you stopped one book too soon. I'm not going to spoil it for you, suffice to say that I hope the show doesn't mess up some of the best stuff RJ wrote arguably in the entire series.

I listened to the German audiobooks, and they had the books split in two, sometimes three volumes, making it difficult to pin down how far I got. But I think I stopped listening sometime in book 4. Rand was already with the Aiel and there had been a coup at the White Tower and the former leader of the Aes Sedai was on the road with her secretary and she was starting to get the hots for the general guy. That was the point when I couldn't take it anymore.

I was thinking those travelling folks were an interesting genuine idea of Jordan himself. I hope they got a good plot.

[karaddin]

3 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

Those are memories, so easier to show as flashbacks when needed. With Rand, the situation is different, I feel. It's a voice in his head. I don't see them making it a disembodied voice. And if the LTT actor is to be around, visible only to Rand, that has its own issues. 

I was only thinking about this the other day. I think it would help the story, and the dynamics with both Lanfear and Lews Therin, if they manage to make Ilyena more of a character.

I was thinking having Rand dreaming memories of LT with Ilyena that start turning into nightmares of her dying could work for part of that. Have it clear that he's only half remembering them on waking other than the strong impression of horror as he starts to lose it and LT is gaining in influence.

I was also wondering what they'll do with the Forsaken. I really don't want their threat to be undermined the way I felt it was in the book once the resurrecting chump Forsaken start showing up again, and just from the number of them that don't follow through on the menace. But at the same time I think the tension over using balefire to prevent them coming back is actually an important dynamic.

I think what I'd prefer is ditching Aginor and Balthamel and having Rand actually kill Demandred at the Eye of the World, then make Rand aware that he's been resurrected in the events of The Dragon Reborn so there's a double whammy of "I didn't kill the dark one at Falme, I didn't even get rid of Demandred" to contribute to his desperation throughout that journey. And then he gets balefire to fix, as he sees it, at least one of those problems.

And have the resurrected Demandred be Taim because I refuse to accept he wasn't meant to be and Jordan changed it when it was figured out.

[Corvinus85]

11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I listened to the German audiobooks, and they had the books split in two, sometimes three volumes, making it difficult to pin down how far I got. But I think I stopped listening sometime in book 4. Rand was already with the Aiel and there had been a coup at the White Tower and the former leader of the Aes Sedai was on the road with her secretary and she was starting to get the hots for the general guy. That was the point when I couldn't take it anymore.

I was thinking those travelling folks were an interesting genuine idea of Jordan himself. I hope they got a good plot.

Oh, well then you already know about the travelling people.

 

[polishgenius]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

The problem for me is that I'm far too old to actually get invested in those things if they are presented in such a manner,

 

 

I don't even like the WoT books but I gotta agree with Poobah: the claim that you just don't like Jordan coz you're too grown up comes with the direct inbuilt implication that people who still like him must be childish and that's a weird tone to take for an extended fan topic on the matter.

[Inkdaub]

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And my point was that I cannot bring myself to read or enjoy stuff like that anymore.

That was in truth not your point.

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Most people who seem to like WoT in this thread apparently didn't read the series first around forty nor after they have read a lot of adult stuff.

Here is your point.

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

infantile

There it is again.

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

there comes a point where you have to face the fact that you cannot really offer this stuff to readers of a certain age with a certain reading experience. At least not with a straight face.

Here's the point once more.  It does not appear that you are talking about yourself here. 

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That doesn't mean you cannot still like that stuff if you do. Me not liking it has nothing to do with your preferences.

Generous.  Your posts do not reflect this sentiment, though.

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't see where the harm is in offering such an opinion.

Most people would say, secretly of course, that such an opinion is idiotic and the world has enough of that already.

[Lord Varys]

10 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

Oh, well then you already know about the travelling people.

I do? Oh, then I either forgot and/or thought there must be more to them than that.

7 hours ago, polishgenius said:

I don't even like the WoT books but I gotta agree with Poobah: the claim that you just don't like Jordan coz you're too grown up comes with the direct inbuilt implication that people who still like him must be childish and that's a weird tone to take for an extended fan topic on the matter.

That wasn't the intent. The intent was to say that this is literature I don't think people with considerable reading experience - especially in the genre we are talking about - are likely to get invested in if they first read it in their later years. Because then you are invested in other things ... and you have a more sober view of things in general.

I didn't say people who like this stuff shouldn't like it because I don't like it. Or that it is somehow bad to be attached to things from childhood and youth. But one can (and perhaps should) reflect on why one likes certain things ... or whether one would get invested in something at the age of 38 one actually got invested in at the age of 18. And I find it to be something I might have gotten invested in at an earlier age - and perhaps still at this point if I hadn't read other (in my opinion) better genre stuff. I mean, now that I'm thinking about this whole thing it might be interesting to give the whole thing another try. Even only to figure how bad I actually think the series is ;-).

Another good example for that can be videogames or silent movies - folks who grew up with silent movies may have keep a soft spot for them whereas people who grew up with 'proper movies' might never really get what the older folk liked with silent movies. I myself grew up with early 1990s videogames. My girlfriend, five years younger and only starting to play in the 2000s, has no emotional connection to shitty graphics and bad music. Doesn't mean I have to stop liking those - but I should realize that only a rather tiny demographic likes stuff like that and that this kind of thing will die (at the latest) with my generation.

[fionwe1987]

35 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I do? Oh, then I either forgot and/or thought there must be more to them than that.

That wasn't the intent. The intent was to say that this is literature I don't think people with considerable reading experience - especially in the genre we are talking about - are likely to get invested in if they first read it in their later years. Because then you are invested in other things ... and you have a more sober view of things in general.

I didn't say people who like this stuff shouldn't like it because I don't like it. Or that it is somehow bad to be attached to things from childhood and youth. But one can (and perhaps should) reflect on why one likes certain things ... or whether one would get invested in something at the age of 38 one actually got invested in at the age of 18. And I find it to be something I might have gotten invested in at an earlier age - and perhaps still at this point if I hadn't read other (in my opinion) better genre stuff. I mean, now that I'm thinking about this whole thing it might be interesting to give the whole thing another try. Even only to figure how bad I actually think the series is ;-).

Another good example for that can be videogames or silent movies - folks who grew up with silent movies may have keep a soft spot for them whereas people who grew up with 'proper movies' might never really get what the older folk liked with silent movies. I myself grew up with early 1990s videogames. My girlfriend, five years younger and only starting to play in the 2000s, has no emotional connection to shitty graphics and bad music. Doesn't mean I have to stop liking those - but I should realize that only a rather tiny demographic likes stuff like that and that this kind of thing will die (at the latest) with my generation.

You seem incredibly invested, as an adult, in convincing other adults they shouldn't be invested in this series as adults, unless for nostalgia reasons. And you present that as fact. What if someone here did read the series as an adult who has read plenty of other fantasy and science fiction? I suppose you will next want to dig into what exactly they've read and dismissing their reading as not up to the perceived superiority of your own reading experience? How is this not meant to be insulting and personal?

Your stated intent is meaningless. The actuality of your words are what matter. One would think, given the wide reading experience you imply for yourself here, this basic understanding of how words work would be clear to you. 

In other words, show us your intent by your actions, don't tell us about it. 

[fionwe1987]

Back to actual discussion, someone mentioned Ilyena, and I think in general, having more scenes in the Age of Legends would make sense. It'll just be expensive AF CGI, but I think they should do it. But I'd hold back till Rand gets to see the history of the Aiel. You don't want the past Age to be too familiar to viewers. I enjoyed seeing how much more technologically advanced they were, in book 4, and it really brought home the utter chaos and destructiveness of the Breaking, and it makes the fear male channelers induce in everyone clear and understandable. 

[Corvinus85]

17 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Back to actual discussion, someone mentioned Ilyena, and I think in general, having more scenes in the Age of Legends would make sense. It'll just be expensive AF CGI, but I think they should do it. But I'd hold back till Rand gets to see the history of the Aiel. You don't want the past Age to be too familiar to viewers. I enjoyed seeing how much more technologically advanced they were, in book 4, and it really brought home the utter chaos and destructiveness of the Breaking, and it makes the fear male channelers induce in everyone clear and understandable. 

From what I've seen of fan and licensed artwork, which primarily focused only on characters, it seems the AoL had a strong late 19th century vibe combined with more advanced technology in a few areas. A lot of the advanced tech they had seems to be directly linked to the One Power. In terms of that the show may display, for budget sake they could easily show a modern city and add in One Power special effects. They did film in Prague, right? A city that combines modernism with older architecture. 

[Jace, Extat]

Dawg, I just can't get over being patronized at for liking a 14 book marathon series as somehow infantile by someone whose fascinations include the fucking Bad Batch and the terrible crime that Chakotay and Janeway didn't become mommy and daddy of Voyager.

I've been trying not to be as bellicose, but goddamn man. 

[fionwe1987]

6 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

From what I've seen of fan and licensed artwork, which primarily focused only on characters, it seems the AoL had a strong late 19th century vibe combined with more advanced technology in a few areas. A lot of the advanced tech they had seems to be directly linked to the One Power. In terms of that the show may display, for budget sake they could easily show a modern city and add in One Power special effects. They did film in Prague, right? A city that combines modernism with older architecture. 

No Prague wouldn't do. Fashions were late Victorian, sure, but the buildings and cities look nothing like ours. 

As it is, Tar Valon looks nothing like in the books, architecture wise. And I can forgive them that. It's a lot harder to do every building in CGI, but even Ogier architecture is way more advanced than ours, and the Age of Legends is in a distinctly more advanced class than even that. So I don't think using a current city would make sense. Maybe Dubai, but even Dubai looks too like our world.

[Lord Varys]

11 minutes ago, Babblebauble said:

Dawg, I just can't get over being patronized at for liking a 14 book marathon series as somehow infantile by someone whose fascinations include the fucking Bad Batch and the terrible crime that Chakotay and Janeway didn't become mommy and daddy of Voyager.

I've been trying not to be as bellicose, but goddamn man. 

Hey, I never said I was better than anyone ... and besides, reading is hard, watching is easy. I'm watching a ton of shit before actually reading the same amount of shit. And of course it is pretty infantile to watch cartoons aimed at a pretty young audience as an adult.

Thinking about the show:

The titles of the episodes seem to imply that the first season will cover more than one book - which might be a good thing. Does anybody know how far the plot will advance in the first season?

[Corvinus85]

35 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The titles of the episodes seem to imply that the first season will cover more than one book - which might be a good thing. Does anybody know how far the plot will advance in the first season?

No, but the showrunner said there will be elements of books 2 and 3 in the first season. I believe in an interview a while ago, he said that they are not necessarily going for the formulaic match seasons to books approach, and will craft the story organically, meaning they may pull in some stuff from later books earlier, and maybe push stuff from book 1 later.