The Anti-Targ Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 3 hours ago, rotting sea cow said: I saw earlier today and ... this is bad. It's probably larger and better than the european studies I posted before. Of course, there might be things that are very Korean-specific (like school size, class size, etc) but still... Nevertheless, I still think that the best effort should be made to provide children with functioning schools. You don't really need functioning schools in terms of hundreds of kids gathered in one place in school buildings. But you do need functioning schools in terms of delivering education to ALL kids during the course of the pandemic. If that means snail mailing lessons and phone calls to kids with no online capability then that's what should be done. Correspondence school for kids in remote rural locations, full time, was around for decades before the internet. Low-tech distance education is entirely possible. Neighbourhood based education is also doable. While the weather is still good, kids in a neighbourood can get together at a local park and do some learning together, outside and with social distancing. Govts / school boards should be hiring parents who have reduced work or are out of work to teach decentralised classes where there isn't a locally based school teacher available to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorral Posted July 20, 2020 Author Share Posted July 20, 2020 7 minutes ago, Triskele said: There going to have to come up with some term in the psychology literature for kids dealing with guilt when their grandparents die from COVID after the school reopenings. Not being snarky at all; I think this is a genuine worry (both the deaths and the new psychological problems). Not to mention the guilt of killing the teachers and their family members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karaddin Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 Yeah, I agree completely - this is one of the potential long term impacts and the people least likely to provide psychological care for these kids in the future are the same people forcing them into the situation. On another note, I'm not sure what the key differences are but I accept that Sweden doesn't seem to have an issue with school transmission, but we just can't use that as representative for the rest of the world. Whatever it is that Sweden and the other Nordic countries are doing differently with respect to schooling is obviously a good call. An early factor in the second wave in Victoria (Aus) was a high school which has had over 147 cases linked to it. We need to stop treating primary and secondary schooling like they're the same with the same risk profiles - as per the earlier comments teenagers don't have the lower spread risk that small kids have. ETA: Forgot the link https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07-14/al-taqwa-coronavirus-outbreak-schools-reopening-questioned/12452266 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ormond Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 3 hours ago, Triskele said: They're going to have to come up with some term in the psychology literature for kids dealing with guilt when their grandparents die from COVID after the school reopenings. Not being snarky at all; I think this is a genuine worry (both the deaths and the new psychological problems). This would not be a "new psychological problem." In the history of the world I am sure there have been thousands of cases where someone has had an infectious disease and passed it on to a relative or friend who died of it. We don't need a new term when we already have "irrational guilt" and "survivor guilt" in existence. This pandemic may greatly increase the instances of this, but there is no need for any new psychiatric labels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoannaL Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 Saw this article today on bbc, if true that is great and could be real a breakthrough, unfortunately no peer review yet, just the notification form the company because of stock market rules: "The preliminary results of a clinical trial suggest a new treatment for Covid-19 dramatically reduces the number of patients needing intensive care, according to the UK company that developed it. The treatment from Southampton-based biotech Synairgen uses a protein called interferon beta which the body produces when it gets a viral infection. The protein is inhaled directly into the lungs of patients with coronavirus, using a nebuliser, in the hope that it will stimulate an immune response. The initial findings suggest the treatment cut the odds of a Covid-19 patient in hospital developing severe disease - such as requiring ventilation - by 79%." https://www.bbc.com/news/health-53467022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rotting sea cow Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 8 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said: You don't really need functioning schools in terms of hundreds of kids gathered in one place in school buildings. But you do need functioning schools in terms of delivering education to ALL kids during the course of the pandemic. If that means snail mailing lessons and phone calls to kids with no online capability then that's what should be done. Correspondence school for kids in remote rural locations, full time, was around for decades before the internet. Low-tech distance education is entirely possible. Neighbourhood based education is also doable. While the weather is still good, kids in a neighbourood can get together at a local park and do some learning together, outside and with social distancing. Govts / school boards should be hiring parents who have reduced work or are out of work to teach decentralised classes where there isn't a locally based school teacher available to do it. Sure some of these ideas might work in particular contexts, but schools are more than lessons and homework. They are fundamental for the social development of kids. I'm very skeptical of online learning, specially with small kids. I know for parents who had to do remote office and remote schooling it has been a nightmare. I've personally seen how difficult has been remote working during the stay-at-home, when everything slowed to a snail pace. Now, all projects are delayed for far longer than than expected from the quarantine timespan and with decreased funding many are in serious danger. Simply, at least from my personal experience, home office sucks. And I don't think it's better for home schooling. My opinion is that society should get their sh!t together during the emergency and protect what it's the most important for the future. If the cost of keeping the number of infections low so that schools can work is that restaurants, bars, gyms, events, churches must remain closed for the time being, let's do it. Let's be clear about it. Say that to prevent general outbreaks at schools we need to do that. Let's reorganize the schools and reinvent it. Study carefully the S. Korean, Swedish and others experience and see what can be applied. (I've have family and friends who own restaurants, they are having a bad time, so I'm not minimizing the impacts of those measures, but certain things are more important) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rotting sea cow Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 1 hour ago, JoannaL said: Saw this article today on bbc, if true that is great and could be real a breakthrough, unfortunately no peer review yet, just the notification form the company because of stock market rules: "The preliminary results of a clinical trial suggest a new treatment for Covid-19 dramatically reduces the number of patients needing intensive care, according to the UK company that developed it. The treatment from Southampton-based biotech Synairgen uses a protein called interferon beta which the body produces when it gets a viral infection. The protein is inhaled directly into the lungs of patients with coronavirus, using a nebuliser, in the hope that it will stimulate an immune response. The initial findings suggest the treatment cut the odds of a Covid-19 patient in hospital developing severe disease - such as requiring ventilation - by 79%." https://www.bbc.com/news/health-53467022 I know that Cuba uses interferon-alpha to treat COVID-19, but I don't know if with success. I'm unsure of the differences with interferon-beta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoannaL Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 1 hour ago, rotting sea cow said: My opinion is that society should get their sh!t together during the emergency and protect what it's the most important for the future. If the cost of keeping the number of infections low so that schools can work is that restaurants, bars, gyms, events, churches must remain closed for the time being, let's do it. Let's be clear about it. Say that to prevent general outbreaks at schools we need to do that. Let's reorganize the schools and reinvent it. Study carefully the S. Korean, Swedish and others experience and see what can be applied. Yes, I agree, real school and not some online stuff is really important. And it is not more dangerous than other things we allow back like church service. Here in Germany, day care and primary schools reopened in most states for the last 6 oder 8 weeks, and there was no major outbreak, but there were several large outbreaks related to church services. there are new security measures and they are working e.g. in primary school the class only meets one teacher and the breaks are such that the class does not meet other classes. there is no sports and no singing. there is mask wearing on the floor/restroom, but not in the classroom. the high schools have not totally opened yet, they use a model of part time school learning in small groups (up to 8-10 ) and part time homeschooling. This is much better than full time homeschooling, because the interaction with the teacher is so much better (just my personal experience as a mother who had children for 6 weeks full time at home and now only half time) . Still this is not good enough and I really hope that the high schools open fully (with security measures) after the summer holidays. The education of our children is not some unimportant minor stuff, and it should not be treated like that. there is also a social problem with this , children from less well-to-do households are more likely to loose the necessary level for their class (they do not have a private teacher-mother), some also do not have the technical requirements for homeschooling. There is even the fear that domestic abuse is risening, because it is not detected that easily without school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Anti-Targ Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 4 hours ago, rotting sea cow said: Sure some of these ideas might work in particular contexts, but schools are more than lessons and homework. They are fundamental for the social development of kids. That is a longer term matter which a year of alternative schooling won't really influence. And if you can have neighbourhood classes with smaller groups that facilitates social development anyway. And I know plenty of home schooled kids who are well adjusted socially. There is also the possibility of having year group days at school so that ~1/4 of the students go to school on a given day, which allows for social distancing and protection of kids and staff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 The Oxford researchers have published their phase 1/2 vaccine trial findings. Not my field so I don't know how to interpret it. But they seem to be providing the level of detail that people have been saying has been lacking from the various press releases all the different research teams have put out: https://marlin-prod.literatumonline.com/pb-assets/Lancet/pdfs/S0140673620316044.pdf Any experts want to weigh in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 Just listening to an expert, the Oxford vaccine has triggered production of both t-cells and antibodies that fight Covid-19 in the small (10 person, I gather), human trial. The bad news is that one shot did not stimulate enough production, a second shot was required. It's good news, because people have wondered if a vaccine could be developed that would stimulate the production of antibodies and t-cells. It's bad news in that two shots are needed. More testing has to be done in order to determine how long the vaccine would last. We are used to getting vaccines and basically not having to worry about whatever disease we've been vaccinated against. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorral Posted July 20, 2020 Author Share Posted July 20, 2020 9 hours ago, rotting sea cow said: I know that Cuba uses interferon-alpha to treat COVID-19, but I don't know if with success. I'm unsure of the differences with interferon-beta. This is from the meds they developed to treat HIV back in the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clueless Northman Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 That inteferon-beta might be useful against Covid had already been suspected 2 months ago, iirc. It might well have been the same lab. So, good to see that they confirm their preliminary findings. Now, hopefully, other teams might confirm that it indeed works. I'm not sure we'll have an efficient vaccine before Summer 2021, but at least I have solid hope that we'll have some drugs that might be effective against the disease - either once infection is confirmed or as protection against it, like we use with malaria. We have to soldier on for some more months, though, and try our best to limit the spread of infections and avoid a 2nd wave as big as the 1st (or crush the current wave, depending on our country). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
williamjm Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 3 hours ago, Fragile Bird said: Just listening to an expert, the Oxford vaccine has triggered production of both t-cells and antibodies that fight Covid-19 in the small (10 person, I gather), human trial. The bad news is that one shot did not stimulate enough production, a second shot was required. From the reports I've read (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53469839) they found that 90% of the subjects (the story mentions 1077 of them) did have t-cells and antibodies after a single dose. They gave two doses to 10 people and they all had both t-cells and antibodies, but they'd obviously need more people to prove whether 2 doses was really an improvement on a single dose. 1 hour ago, Clueless Northman said: That inteferon-beta might be useful against Covid had already been suspected 2 months ago, iirc. It might well have been the same lab. So, good to see that they confirm their preliminary findings. Now, hopefully, other teams might confirm that it indeed works. I remember in a previous thread we were discussing a study (might have been Chinese) where they found a combination of interferon beta and other drugs was helpful, although I think that might have been a fairly small study as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Impmk2 Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 Looks pretty positive. A 2 shot vaccine schedule isn't unusual. One of the major concerns about the technology, the presence neutralizing antibodies to the adenovirus vector reducing vaccine efficacy, was addressed and doesn't seem to have had an effect in this cohort. And no severe adverse events so far. We'll have to see how it fares in phase 3. Major concern is duration at this stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clueless Northman Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 39 minutes ago, Impmk2 said: Looks pretty positive. A 2 shot vaccine schedule isn't unusual. Yeah, I had 3 shots when I got vaccinated against hepatitis A/B (and actually had the 3rd one a few months later than I should because I had actually totally forgotten about that). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Anti-Targ Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 Needing a booster shot to ensure immunity isn't bad news. It's common enough to be almost an expected outcome. It'll be all down to duration of immunity, which is why I think it's wrong for the people in charge of this to be suggesting a vaccine could be ready at the end of this year, if you pick a vaccine before the end of the year you might pick one that has shorter immunity than if you wait for the 1 year data to some through. But maybe if a vaccine still produces good immunity at 6 months it might be worth rolling the dice and start to deploy the vaccine to hotspots before the northern winter really bites. I don't think a vaccine will realistically be ready to completely avoid a winter peak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maarsen Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 2 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said: Needing a booster shot to ensure immunity isn't bad news. It's common enough to be almost an expected outcome. It'll be all down to duration of immunity, which is why I think it's wrong for the people in charge of this to be suggesting a vaccine could be ready at the end of this year, if you pick a vaccine before the end of the year you might pick one that has shorter immunity than if you wait for the 1 year data to some through. But maybe if a vaccine still produces good immunity at 6 months it might be worth rolling the dice and start to deploy the vaccine to hotspots before the northern winter really bites. I don't think a vaccine will realistically be ready to completely avoid a winter peak. A vaccine just needs to provide immunity for long enough that the virus, which needs a human host to survive, to be essentially removed from the environment. From what I have read so far, the virus does not mutate as fast as an influenza strain does. As has been done with smallpox, and polio soon I hope, once there is no human host to live in, the virus will be essentially extinct. If I need a booster shot every 6 months to ensure immunity, I will put up with that to eradicate this virus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clueless Northman Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 Yeah, the real issue - ethical issue as well, obviously - would be if there are enough doses around to give to all at-risk people. I'm definitely not getting a coronavirus vaccine (or this year's flu shot) before I know my mom had her, for a starter. But if there are enough left around, I wouldn't have any problem getting a short-lived first vaccine (provided it's guaranteed to be safe, which isn't a given if it's rushed for this Winter), just to need another better longer-lived one 8 months later. I mean, I went through 8-9 shots when I went to Central Africa and had to redo all the vaccines I got in my youth, which were pretty most all expired by that time, so I don't fear to get several vaccines in a row. Blood samples, on the other hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Anti-Targ Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 3 hours ago, Clueless Northman said: Yeah, the real issue - ethical issue as well, obviously - would be if there are enough doses around to give to all at-risk people. I'm definitely not getting a coronavirus vaccine (or this year's flu shot) before I know my mom had her, for a starter. But if there are enough left around, I wouldn't have any problem getting a short-lived first vaccine (provided it's guaranteed to be safe, which isn't a given if it's rushed for this Winter), just to need another better longer-lived one 8 months later. I mean, I went through 8-9 shots when I went to Central Africa and had to redo all the vaccines I got in my youth, which were pretty most all expired by that time, so I don't fear to get several vaccines in a row. Blood samples, on the other hand... I'm actually hoping New Zealand and other countries that have, at the moment, eliminated the virus choose to go to the back of the mass vaccination queue, and only mandates vaccination for people leaving the country. And of course a vaccination certificate for anyone coming into the country. Since those of us staying put here aren't at any risk of getting the disease (assuming it doesn't get back in) there is no reason for us to get vaccinated until after countries that are experiencing community spread are well through their vaccination programme. Unfortunately, I think politically the general population will be screaming for it to be used here ASAP and the govt won't ignore the demands of the masses. According to Worldometers the USA has had its first 1000 deaths day since 9 June. Sad but inevitable consequence of the escalation of cases. But a silver lining is that for the infection rate the USA is seeing right now it's a much lower daily death toll than earlier in the epidemic with much lower daily infection numbers. But still I've got to think that up to half of the daily deaths were preventable with more sensible public health policies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.