Does Yohn Royce know about his sons' deaths???

[Canon Claude]

I brought this up earlier in a topic, but the more I think about it, the more I wonder about it. Yohn Royce is the second-most powerful person in the Vale, a well-respected warrior who can fight off Eddard Stark and Rodrik Cassel at the same time. He might not be as rich as the Lannisters or the Tyrells, or even some of their bannermen, but he has got war experience, war prowess, and a lot of prestige. His sons have also clearly got a lot of ability, given Robar was good enough that he made it onto Renly's Rainbow Guard. 

I get that the Others are still a mystery and there's a massive war going on, but does Yohn Royce know about the fates of Robar or Waymar? In the case of the latter, I'm sure he doesn't know, since the Night's Watch hasn't even listed Waymar as being "dead" without a doubt. It's more Robar that I wonder about. You would think that Yohn would at least raise an objection over the fact that Loras Tyrell killed Robar in a highly dishonourable manner. I don't care how powerful Loras's family is, Yohn Royce doesn't strike me as a man who would meekly say nothing over the death of his own flesh and blood, especially if it wasn't a death in battle. It's not like Robar's death was a secret either. The fates of the Rainbow Guard are well documented. One of them is still being held in prison as far as we know, with no idea of when he'll be released. And we know that other people are aware of the Rainbow Guard's deaths because Bryce Caron's lands have all gone to his killer as a reward, and Loras openly talks to Jaime about Robar's death, so we can assume he's talked about it to other men as well (why would he choose to confide in Jaime with secrets?). I don't have a copy of AFFC but I'm pretty sure that Yohn never brings up either of his dead sons, and I'm not expecting him to say anything about it at a meeting with Littlefinger, but it's strange that he either (A) doesn't know about Robar's death, or (B) doesn't seem to care at all. 

[Lollygag]

Good question about Robar. Maybe it'll be an issue in future books.

On Waymar, we know Royce is tight with the Starks. There's an odd line by Dolorous Edd that makes me wonder if Bronze Yohn wasn't behind Jon's nomination for LC, especially seeing as how they had Benjen missing themselves.

ASOS  Jon XII

Maester Aemon answered, from the far end of the hall. "Your name has been put forth as Lord Commander, Jon."

That was so absurd Jon had to smile. "By who?" he said, looking for his friends. This had to be one of Pyp's japes, surely. But Pyp shrugged at him, and Grenn shook his head. It was Dolorous Edd Tollett who stood. "By me. Aye, it's a terrible cruel thing to do to a friend, but better you than me."

Dolorous Edd seems an odd choice for LC, but as the Tolletts are sworn to House Royce and are very poor (in a bad position especially for Winter), I wonder if Royce didn't tell Edd to either get the LC himself or make sure it went to Jon for the ends of putting someone in who would be more favorable to finding out about Waymar.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

In Bran V, AGoT 37, they have received a raven at Winterfell to let them know that Benjen was still missing. I don't see how Bronze Yohn wouldn't have been informed that his son is missing as well. Waymar wasn't some nobody.

As far as Robar goes, there were no POV characters around him when that particular news came down. Once he knows that Renly is dead, I think the first thing he'd wonder about is his son and what happened to him. 

Plus, Royce has his own ports, Runestone is not all that far from Gulltown, and we have seen exactly how the news travels in the ports, so even if no one wrote him about Robar's death, the news of his death at the hand of Loras would still have reached him if no one bothered sending him a raven.

[Floki of the Ironborn]

Just now, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Plus, Royce has his own ports, Runestone is not all that far from Gulltown, and we have seen exactly how the news travels in the ports, so even if no one wrote him about Robar's death, the news of his death at the hand of Loras would still have reached him if no one bothered sending him a raven.

It does explain why he wished he had been involved in the War of the Five Kings, because then Robar would likely have been part of the Vale army coming to Robb's aid instead of joining Renly Baratheon. I don't know if Robar would have actually done that, but Yohn would certainly be stuck wondering if he could have avoided his son's death by keeping him close.

[Peach King]

Robar was in service to a traitor king. Of course no one is going to demand justice for him.

Also people really exaggerate Loras' actions. Robar was actively attacking him out of nowhere, what was he supposed to think?

No one  who hears about it seems to think Loras should pay for it, probably because 1) again, Renly was a traitor to the crown 2) maybe theres an addendage that Kingsguard's (which the RB seems based on) deaths are justified if they failed to protect their king.

[Lollygag]

Robar says that his swearing to Renly was his own choice because of a too many younger sons problem and Waymar going into the NW also indicates this. But even so, Catelyn does question his story. She compares to him Renly who still loves tourneys and says Robb has more sense at 15 but then Jeyne happens.

ACOK Catelyn III

Dusk was falling when Catelyn left the pavilion. Ser Robar Royce fell in beside her. She knew him slightly—one of Bronze Yohn's sons, comely in a rough-hewn way, a tourney warrior of some renown. Renly had gifted him with a rainbow cloak and a suit of blood red armor, and named him one of his seven. "You are a long way from the Vale, ser," she told him.

"And you far from Winterfell, my lady."

"I know what brought me here, but why have you come? This is not your battle, no more than it is mine."

"I made it my battle when I made Renly my king."

"The Royces are bannermen to House Arryn."

"My lord father owes Lady Lysa fealty, as does his heir. A second son must find glory where he can." Ser Robar shrugged. "A man grows weary of tourneys."

He could not be older than one-and-twenty, Catelyn thought, of an age with his king . . . but her king, her Robb, had more wisdom at fifteen than this youth had ever learned. Or so she prayed.

 

[Curled Finger]

Interesting.  As I read the OP I went through a little checklist of the Lords Declarant in my mind.  Who does what? Who is playing a game and who is better to actually rule as regent for Sweet Robin.  Who may be most likely, despite the many ties to Winterfell in the Vale, to answer a call for aid?  Second in charge at the Vale indeed.   I always bounce back to that ancient armor with the runes on it dating back to the 1st Men.  Lord Yohn's sons wore armor identical to the heirloom suit in the Tourney of the Hand.  Something older, something deep in those Royce people.  The strong ties to Runestone definitely lend credence to the idea that Royce is in the know about many things, true and false.  Little Finger got his start in Gulltown and there is no question that Bronze Yohn has had tons of grievance and complaint about Little Finger over the years.  It's not like LF actually plays square or nice.  A man like Yohn Royce would want to know these things as he strikes me as a man who is deeply patriotic and loyal to his home.  

Why haven't either of the sons come up?  We don't see inside Bronze Yohn's thoughts and only hear what he says in Sansa's vicinity.  I can't see him bringing something so painful up to Little Finger, something that would leave his remaining heirs somehow vulnerable.  It is interesting that Sansa doesn't seem to register any of this information about Royce's sons.  Why isn't she buddies with Ysilla, the Royce daughter set to marry Michel Redfort?  Hrm, another can of worms right there.  

[James Steller]

6 hours ago, Peach King said:

 

Also people really exaggerate Loras' actions. Robar was actively attacking him out of nowhere, what was he supposed to think?

 

Robar didn’t attack Loras. Loras killed him when he found out Renly died on Robar’s watch. Loras admits that he slew Robar in his rage and even feels guilty about when he admits it to Jaime. He clearly didn’t kill Robar honourably, it was an act of grief-stricken and vengeful murder, and Loras got away with it because he’s the beloved third son of Mace Tyrell and he’s a member of the Kingsguard.

[Peach King]

1 hour ago, James Steller said:

Robar didn’t attack Loras. Loras killed him when he found out Renly died on Robar’s watch. Loras admits that he slew Robar in his rage and even feels guilty about when he admits it to Jaime. He clearly didn’t kill Robar honourably, it was an act of grief-stricken and vengeful murder, and Loras got away with it because he’s the beloved third son of Mace Tyrell and he’s a member of the Kingsguard.

"She is innocent, Robar. You have my word, on my husband's grave and my honor as a Stark!"

That resolved him. "I will hold them," Ser Robar said. "Get her away." He turned and went out.

What do you think 'I will hold them' means? It means he was going to try to stop whoever was trying to come into the tent.

We also have no idea why Loras 'got away with it'. As I said, no one is going to ask recompense from the current king for the death of a traitor (I think Tarly even says he wouldn't be able to arrest Brienne for that reason). For all we know, Yohn Royce thinks he deserves it because he thinks he was foolish and glory hungry to support Renly.

[James Steller]

5 hours ago, Peach King said:

"She is innocent, Robar. You have my word, on my husband's grave and my honor as a Stark!"

That resolved him. "I will hold them," Ser Robar said. "Get her away." He turned and went out.

What do you think 'I will hold them' means? It means he was going to try to stop whoever was trying to come into the tent.

 

That is an assumption. Robar could have tried to use reason and words. Given that Emmon Cuy died while swearing Brienne killed Renly, I’m inclined to think that he and Robar weren’t attacking Loras at the time. If GRRM confirms that Robar held off Loras by force, then I’ll believe it. But from how Loras looks back on, from what I interpreted, and from what others clearly interpreted as well, Robar did not die while fighting. He died because Loras, his superior in terms of fighting, had an emotional reaction to Renly’s death which resulted in him killing his two fellow bodyguards. It’s a parallel to Jaime, just like their interactions in ASOS reveal. Jaime recognizes that Loras is like himself, all the way down to his dishonourable killing of Robar and Emmon being equated to Jaime’s own dishonourable killing.

[Lord Lannister]

Given the amount of confusion in the aftermath of Renly's death, there's probably stories of Robar and Emmon dying defending Renly, being murdered by Brienne, being murdered by Stannis, and anything else in between. 

[Thomaerys Velaryon]

I may be misremembering, but didn't Jeor Mormont send a letter to Yohn Royce announcing Waymar's death ?

[John Suburbs]

30 minutes ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

I may be misremembering, but didn't Jeor Mormont send a letter to Yohn Royce announcing Waymar's death ?

I don't know if that is stated outright, but Ned heard Gared's story just before he executed him. They thought he was raving, but he would have told them what he saw, which presumably was the Others killing Waymar, and maybe Waymar killing Will (although that was hours later).

So I can only imagine that Ned would have relayed this tale to Mormont, and then either Jeor or Ned would have gotten word to Yohn -- if not that Waymar was definitely dead (perhaps at Gared's hands?), then at least missing and presumed dead, particularly after all this time has gone by.

[Peach King]

3 hours ago, James Steller said:

That is an assumption. Robar could have tried to use reason and words. Given that Emmon Cuy died while swearing Brienne killed Renly, I’m inclined to think that he and Robar weren’t attacking Loras at the time. If GRRM confirms that Robar held off Loras by force, then I’ll believe it. But from how Loras looks back on, from what I interpreted, and from what others clearly interpreted as well, Robar did not die while fighting. He died because Loras, his superior in terms of fighting, had an emotional reaction to Renly’s death which resulted in him killing his two fellow bodyguards. It’s a parallel to Jaime, just like their interactions in ASOS reveal. Jaime recognizes that Loras is like himself, all the way down to his dishonourable killing of Robar and Emmon being equated to Jaime’s own dishonourable killing.

Fair enough. He could have used other means, but I personally don't see it that way.

This is what Robar is doing before he goes out:

Ser Robar had hung back, uncertain, but now he was reaching for his hilt.

I'm inclined to think that means he held them back by force. Considering no one thinks anyone else other than Brienne killed Renly, Robar must not have told Loras that it was Stannis or a shadow, which lends credence to the idea he didn't use his words. Tyrion also cites Loras' killing of the Rainbow guard as one of his feats, suggesting it was a real fight.

When I saw him all bloody, with her fled and the three of them unharmed . . . if she's innocent, then Robar and Emmon . . ." He could not seem to say the words.

Loras here is saying here that he thinks Brienne was guilty, and since that the others were unharmed, that placed under suspicion. Either by aiding Brienne or allowing the murder to take place, which would mean they were part of the murder plot.

Are you blind, the girl loved him! Help her!” She glanced back, saw the second guardsman fall, his blade dropping from limp fingers.

Ser Emmon was pressing Brienne hard, him in his enameled yellow steel and her in wool. He had forgotten Catelyn, until the iron brazier came crashing into the back of his head. Helmed as he was, the blow did no lasting harm, but it sent him to his knees. “Brienne, with me,” Catelyn commanded. The girl was not slow to see the chance. A slash, and the green silk parted. They stepped out into darkness and the chill of dawn.

These events happen before Loras comes. This paints a pretty accurate picture: Loras is coming to Renly's tent, hearing shouts and screams. Robar is trying to prevent him from coming inside (bodily or otherwise). Behind him the tent is ripped and the culprits are gone, and the rest of the guards are just doing nothing.

So it's not far off for him to assume they helped facilitate Renly's murder or did nothing to stop it. 

So yes, dishonorable. But IMO, still understandable. 

[Frey family reunion]

I think this is all Mormont said on the matter:

Quote

Mormont scarcely seemed to hear him. The old man warmed his hands before the fire. “I sent Benjen Stark to search after Yohn Royce’s son, lost on his first ranging. The Royce boy was green as summer grass, yet he insisted on the honor of his own command, saying it was his due as a knight. I did not wish to offend his lord father, so I yielded. I sent him out with two men I deemed as good as any in the Watch. More fool I.”

“Gared was near as old as I am and longer on the Wall,” he went on, “yet it would seem he forswore himself and fled. I should never have believed it, not of him, but Lord Eddard sent me his head from Winterfell. Of Royce, there is no word. One deserter and two men lost, and now Ben Stark too has gone missing.” He sighed deeply. “Who am I to send searching after him? In two years I will be seventy. Too old and too weary for the burden I bear, yet if I set it down, who will pick it up? Alliser Thorne? Bowen Marsh? I would have to be as blind as Maester Aemon not to see what they are. The Night’s Watch has become an army of sullen boys and tired old men. Apart from the men at my table tonight, I have perhaps twenty who can read, and even fewer who can think, or plan, or lead. Once the Watch spent its summers building, and each Lord Commander raised the Wall higher than he found it. Now it is all we can do to stay alive.”

So Mormont didn’t hear about Royce’s fate from anything that Gared told Eddard.  Presumably Mormont notified Royce about his son having gone missing, based on the deference he has previously given Royce.

ETA: I say presumably but perhaps not.   It doesn’t appear that any ravens were sent to Winterfell to notify them of Benjen’s disappearance.  Robb and Bran only find about it when Yoren and two of his other wandering crows stopped in at Winterfell and were specifically asked about Benjen.

Quote

But when Robb asked for news of their uncle Benjen, the black brothers grew ominously quiet.
“What is it?” Bran asked.
Yoren wiped his fingers on his vest. “There’s hard news, m’lords, and a cruel way to pay you for your meat and mead, but the man as asks the question must bear the answer. Stark’s gone.”
One of the other men said, “The Old Bear sent him out to look for Waymar Royce, and he’s late returning, my lord.”
“Too long,” Yoren said. “Most like he’s dead”.

 So if Mormont didn’t send a raven to the Starks to let them know about Benjen he may not have sent a raven to Royce either.  

[The hairy bear]

27 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

  It doesn’t appear that any ravens were sent to Winterfell to notify them of Benjen’s disappearance. 

Yoren informs Robb and Bran of Benjen's disappearance in Bran IV, but that's just after he has gone missing. Later on, in Bran VI, it is said:

When Robb wrote to the Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch, the bird that came back brought word that Uncle Benjen was still missing.

The fact that the the letter said that Benjan was "still missing" also suggests that it's not the first letter that Mormont sends to Winterfell on that matter.

[Frey family reunion]

20 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

Yoren informs Robb and Bran of Benjen's disappearance in Bran IV, but that's just after he has gone missing. Later on, in Bran VI, it is said:

When Robb wrote to the Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch, the bird that came back brought word that Uncle Benjen was still missing.

The fact that the the letter said that Benjan was "still missing" also suggests that it's not the first letter that Mormont sends to Winterfell on that matter.

Maybe, it just seems odd that Yoren beat any raven with the news.  And it may be that it was Yoren's visit that prompted Robb to send a raven to the Lord Commander specifically asking about his uncle.  Mormont may have been holding off any ravens hoping that he's be able to find some clue as to either Waymer or Benjen.

[James Steller]

5 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Given the amount of confusion in the aftermath of Renly's death, there's probably stories of Robar and Emmon dying defending Renly, being murdered by Brienne, being murdered by Stannis, and anything else in between. 

That’s a good point. It does seem odd that Yohn wouldn’t at least inquire about it, though. He’s down to just one son left now, that’s not a good situation.

[Lollygag]

I can see Yohn biding his time about Robar's death until the IT situation is worked out. In regards to Loras, the Tyrells are keeping Cersei in check and he's not fond of the Lannisters at all.

He's no Rickard Karstark.

[James Steller]

32 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I can see Yohn biding his time about Robar's death until the IT situation is worked out. In regards to Loras, the Tyrells are keeping Cersei in check and he's not fond of the Lannisters at all.

He's no Rickard Karstark.

So you’re saying he’s a Wyman Manderly? Granted, I’d love for that to be the case, but he doesn’t seem like the kind of man who bides his time and plots revenge behind people’s backs. Based on how I’ve seen his portrayal in the books, he seems like a blunt and direct man who prefers honest actions to stealth and cunning, hence why he despises Littlefinger so much.