Why are Valyrians and Qartheen so incredibly pale and white?

[Alyn Oakenfist]

So ASOIAF generally has pretty sound anthropology, with skin color varying with latitude, with Summer Islander and Sothoryosi probably being very near the equator. But then there's the Valyrians and Qartheen that are literally the whitest things in this worst, even whiter and paler then the Andals and First men, and yet they come from a latitude that has the Ghiscari and that is bellow the Dothraki. So what gives?

[Darth Sidious]

The Valyrians are a different race.  We believe they were herders living near the volcanoes before they became a powerful people.   But before then?  Are they the children of the founders of the Great Empire of the Dawn?  How are they related to the current emperor of Yi Ti?  They have lighter skin because their race did not begin in the Valyrian peninsula.  

I have no explanation for the Qartheen except to use the same reasoning as above.  They also have little taste for manual labor.  The rich are not exposed to a lot of sunlight.  

[Springwatch]

Dany was met by tiny naked children in Qarth, scattering rose petals in her path or something iirc.  I'm guessing the Qartheen have no need for melanin because they soak up sunlight like Targs soak up heat.

And for the why - some kind of symbolic thing. Black and white are the colours of the night. Or Mel's binary worldview, maybe.

[Lollygag]

If it comes to a good character or story, that'll probably come before being accurate. Thank goodness. It's also realistic that people move around.

TWOIAF Grasslands

Despite their long history, little can be said with any certainty of the Qaathi—a people now gone from the world save for a remnant in Qarth.

 

What can be said is that the Qaathi arose in the grasslands and established towns there, coming into contact and occasional conflict with the Sarnori. They would oft have the worse of these wars, and so began to drift farther south, creating new city-states. One such, Qarth, was founded on the coast of the Summer Sea. Yet the lands in the south of Essos proved more inhospitable than those the Qaathi had vacated, turning to desert even as they established their foothold there. The Qaathi people were already well on their way to collapse when the Doom struck, and any hopes of using the chaos in the Summer Sea to their advantage vanished when the Dothraki attacked, destroying all the remaining Qaathi cities save for Qarth itself.

 

As for the Valyrians, there's some heavy hints that their coloring is at least in part rooted in magic. I'm not sure I'd look for realism in magical white-haired, purple-eyed people who are blood of the dragon, whatever that means.

 

24 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Dany was met by tiny naked children in Qarth, scattering rose petals in her path or something iirc.  I'm guessing the Qartheen have no need for melanin because they soak up sunlight like Targs soak up heat.

And for the why - some kind of symbolic thing. Black and white are the colours of the night. Or Mel's binary worldview, maybe.

Yeah, something going on with light/dark. Others are white, white, white, but bring dark and hate light. Valyrian steel drinks light. Then there's Asshai and the Othery ghost grass.

 

Adding even though this line of thought always makes my brain hurt.

It appears, that Asshai is eating so much light that it's creating an environment for dark to thrive. Now we see that grass appear. We might have a yin/yang situation in that if dark or light grow too strong, it births the opposite allowing the other to begin to thrive.

More on Valyrians: vs drinks light. Dragons must blacken their food before eating it which is symbolically if not quite literally, eating the light as only dark is left. And while the steel and dragons absorb light, Valyrians are light in an unnatural way and there's the culture of incest with light being recessive.

[Rose of Red Lake]

I always thought it was an inverse of Tolkien tropes. White, pale, beautiful is now associated with hypocrisy, lust, greed, obsession, darkness, destructiveness, ect.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

35 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

White, pale, beautiful is now associated with hypocrisy, lust, greed, obsession, darkness, destructiveness, ect.

Not really. Almost everyone is kinda in that vein. The Summer Islanders literally have a religion around lust, The Ghiscari have a thing for greed, and the Dothraki have a bit of history for destructiveness. It's not any race or whatever commentary, it's just that every culture is kinda shitty in this world

[Rose of Red Lake]

2 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Not really. Almost everyone is kinda in that vein. The Summer Islanders literally have a religion around lust, The Ghiscari have a thing for greed, and the Dothraki have a bit of history for destructiveness. It's not any race or whatever commentary, it's just that every culture is kinda shitty in this world

It's not a commentary on cultures. Its just an opportunity to flip fantasy expectations when needed. Whiteness certainly doesnt signify purity and goodness in every instance, like in Tolkien's work, and in some cases, represents the opposite. 

[Loose Bolt]

In books of Michael Moorcock there was an island Melnibone which was a capital of empire that ruled the world using both magic and dragons. One of "heroes" in those books was Elric of Melnibone last emperor of that empire who look like this

Quote

It is the colour of a bleached skull, his flesh; and the long hair which flows below his shoulders is milk-white. From the tapering, beautiful head stare two slanting eyes, crimson and moody, and from the loose sleeves of his yellow gown emerge two slender hands, also the colour of bone.

Elric of Melniboné 1972

So I kind of suspect that there might be a connection between Melnibone and Valyria.

[Orm]

They have white/silver because maybe it deflects heat(dark hair absorbs heat)......... And as they ride dragons in the clear sky maybe they needed that trait..............

I thought Valyrians came in all skin tones though...... Is it not the case?

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 hour ago, Orm said:

I thought Valyrians came in all skin tones though...... Is it not the case?

I'm pretty sure pale skin is one of their traits, alongside purple eyes and platinum blonde hair. In F&B it's said about Daenaera that she had all the beauty of Old Valyria, pale skin, purple eye and platinum hair.

[Lord Varys]

14 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I always thought it was an inverse of Tolkien tropes. White, pale, beautiful is now associated with hypocrisy, lust, greed, obsession, darkness, destructiveness, ect.

Have you ever read anything of George's besides ASoIaF? He is quite obsessed with pale albino people which stretch throughout his work starting with as early a story as 'A Peripheral Affair'.

16 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So ASOIAF generally has pretty sound anthropology, with skin color varying with latitude, with Summer Islander and Sothoryosi probably being very near the equator. But then there's the Valyrians and Qartheen that are literally the whitest things in this worst, even whiter and paler then the Andals and First men, and yet they come from a latitude that has the Ghiscari and that is bellow the Dothraki. So what gives?

It makes no sense, considering where the people lived.

Although one could try to make sense of the Valyrians if one assumes that the smoke from the Fourteen Flames would have shieled the early Valyrians from the sun to the point that pale skin wasn't an evolutionary disadvantage for them.

And to be sure, the Qaathi only moved down south to the Red Waste later. Originally they were a people living farther north. How long it take until a human population develops dark skin I don't know - especially not when you clothing and hats and what not could help you deal with a southern climate.

[The Fattest Leech]

23 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So ASOIAF generally has pretty sound anthropology, with skin color varying with latitude, with Summer Islander and Sothoryosi probably being very near the equator. But then there's the Valyrians and Qartheen that are literally the whitest things in this worst, even whiter and paler then the Andals and First men, and yet they come from a latitude that has the Ghiscari and that is bellow the Dothraki. So what gives?

Because in the literary world of ASOIAF, Daenerys Targaryen is the first and the "ultimate", all of the rest are just there to lead up to Dany. It is George reverse engineering the ASOIAF world after he had already written Daenerys (mainly), Viserys and other Targaryens in the main (canon) books.

The physical looks and behaviors of Dany herself come from his character Cyrain of Lilith and Ash in his story The Glass Flower. There is also quite a bit, physical and archetypal, of Goldenboy from the story Starlady in Dany and Valyrians. Both of these character-types also have the proximity telepathy/mind control powers such as George planned (and kept) for Daenerys and the Targaryens. Pyrokenisis in the case of the Targs and Pyro and mental persuasion for Dany as being able to "bend to her will" the people around her (per GRRM).

Also, pale and silver/gold with purple eyes is not the same as albino. Superficially they seem the same, but to readers who decode the details, they function quite differently from each other.

Also, GRRM's worlds follow his own "scientific" rules. Latitude and geography have little to do with the results we see in real life. Characters are the way GRRM needs them to be.

[Lord Varys]

6 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Because in the literary world of ASOIAF, Daenerys Targaryen is the first and the "ultimate", all of the rest are just there to lead up to Dany. It is George reverse engineering the ASOIAF world after he had already written Daenerys (mainly), Viserys and other Targaryens in the main (canon) books.

Is there any evidence for the idea that George had Dany first, and did not come up with Viserys and Dany at the same time? The 'Glass Flower' is carbon copy of Daenerys physically, but that's just the last version in a long line.

6 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

The physical looks and behaviors of Dany herself come from his character Cyrain of Lilith and Ash in his story The Glass Flower. There is also quite a bit, physical and archetypal, of Goldenboy from the story Starlady in Dany and Valyrians. Both of these character-types also have the proximity telepathy/mind control powers such as George planned (and kept) for Daenerys and the Targaryens. Pyrokenisis in the case of the Targs and Pyro and mental persuasion for Dany as being able to "bend to her will" the people around her (per GRRM).

Those people are just one of many albino-like characters in the story. The first of those is the rogue thief from 'A Peripheral Affair'. The Targaryens and Lannisters are just the last incarnation of George's obsession with fair-haired, pale-skinned people.

6 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Also, pale and silver/gold with purple eyes is not the same as albino. Superficially they seem the same, but to readers who decode the details, they function quite differently from each other.

Of course they are, just go watch some real world albinos. Or use a google picture search. That would be a good link:

https://www.boredpanda.com/beautiful-albino-people-albinism/?utm_source=ecosia&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=organic

Those purple eyes the Valyrians have in the story effectively are the 'red eyes' of albinos.

It is kind of embarassing how George wanted there to be an albino in an albino family. Bloodraven cannot have paler skin kin or more platinum hair than the other Targaryens considering how people like Maekar looked like.

Also, it is also kind of embarassing to make a person who is specifically branded an albino into a great archer - when it is effectively generally known that albinos suffer from multiple eye issues, most notably stereoscopic vision and squinting. Bloodraven should be anything but a great archer.

That's bordering on making a blind person a great dance, a disabled person a great runner, or a dwarf a reasonably good fighter ... wait a minute, he did do the latter thing, too, didn't he?

6 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Also, GRRM's worlds follow his own "scientific" rules. Latitude and geography have little to do with the results we see in real life. Characters are the way GRRM needs them to be.

No, they are like he wants them to be. There is no narrative need for the Valyrians and Free City people to be all albinos, but they are. And they are in the story because George really likes his albinos and blondes. That is kind of his trade mark for some strange reason.

[The Fattest Leech]

8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Of course they are, just go watch some real world albinos.

Just answering this for the moment, but the real world science has little to nothing to do with ASOIAF. This has been shown over and over and over again. And everyone of his past pale characters have not been albino specifically. There is a narrative importance with difference between them.

What's the real world way to hatch dragons and not get burnt by fire?

[Many-Faced Votary]

6 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

What's the real world way to hatch dragons and not get burnt by fire?

Drop some 'shrooms.

[Davjos]

I mean it’s fantasy is the real answer. Why are the dragons all different colours and are there no apparent (dis)advantages/ reasons to a colour?

[zandru]

24 minutes ago, Davjos said:

I mean it’s fantasy is the real answer. Why are the dragons all different colours and are there no apparent (dis)advantages to a colour?

Heh. As the ultimate apex predator, dragons can be any colour, with no need for camoflage. Still, I agree: "it's fantasy" is the real answer.

[Lord Varys]

18 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Just answering this for the moment, but the real world science has little to nothing to do with ASOIAF. This has been shown over and over and over again. And everyone of his past pale characters have not been albino specifically. There is a narrative importance with difference between them.

What's the real world way to hatch dragons and not get burnt by fire?

Real world has to do with how albinos look like, though. It is just a fact that George's platinum blondes do look like albinos. They don't have to be specifically called 'albinos' to have all the physical features that describe albinos.

Real world also tells us that not all albinos have red eyes (only those with truly colorless irises). Bloodraven is a special albino in the sense that he has the red eyes, but that doesn't make all the other Targaryens with pale skin, platinum white hair, and bluish-purplish not albinos.

The very idea that those people do not fit the description of albinos is refuted by a real world albino pictures. If George didn't want the Valyrians and Targaryens be albinos he shouldn't have described as one would albinos.

Here would be another link for a bunch of real world Targaryens albinos:

Gorgeous albinos (according to some weird page)

Note that 'red eyes' mostly actually means 'purple eyes' in real people or at least the photographs of real people.

Making Bloodraven an albino in an albino family really makes no sense. It is inadvertently funny since it is a dead giveaway that the author really didn't know or care about what it means to be albino ... as he showed by making his 'specific special albino', Bloodraven, into a great archer. Albinos don't have good eyesight, the author failed to portray that accurately, nor did he try to deal with that by making Bloodraven overcome his eyesight problems with sorcery. Although that would be a cheap trick it would at least have the author the real world issues albinos have to deal with.

Trying to brush that aside by saying its fantasy doesn't fly. Then George could just as well giving us the Lucy Lawless Brienne I think I deserve, not to mention a proper super warrior dwarf and a proper fantasy unicorn. He usually tries to depict things realistically, but not with his albino fetish people.

[Aldarion]

On 7/19/2020 at 8:53 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So ASOIAF generally has pretty sound anthropology, with skin color varying with latitude, with Summer Islander and Sothoryosi probably being very near the equator. But then there's the Valyrians and Qartheen that are literally the whitest things in this worst, even whiter and paler then the Andals and First men, and yet they come from a latitude that has the Ghiscari and that is bellow the Dothraki. So what gives?

GRRM does not understand genetics? Valyrians are quite clearly supposed to be Romans, with Valyrian peninsula being Apennine peninsula, but it is too large and too south for that to work. And Valyrians themselves are far paler than Romans. In fact, they look as if they come from underground or some permanent-night place (as Lord Varys points out, they are basically albinos).

[Frey family reunion]

18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Also, it is also kind of embarassing to make a person who is specifically branded an albino into a great archer - when it is effectively generally known that albinos suffer from multiple eye issues, most notably stereoscopic vision and squinting. Bloodraven should be anything but a great archer.

  He triangulates his shots through the eyes of birds.