Frey family reunion Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 15 hours ago, Davjos said: I mean it’s fantasy is the real answer. Why are the dragons all different colours and are there no apparent (dis)advantages/ reasons to a colour? Perhaps based on the model of the chameleon: Quote Chameleons or chamaeleons (family Chamaeleonidae) are a distinctive and highly specialized clade of Old World lizards with 202 species described as of June 2015.[1] These species come in a range of colors, and many species have the ability to change color. Chameleons are distinguished by their zygodactylous feet; their very extensive, highly modified, rapidly extrudable tongues; their swaying gait;[2] and crests or horns on their brow and snout. Most species, the larger ones in particular, also have a prehensile tail. Chameleons' eyes are independently mobile, but in aiming at a prey item, they focus forward in coordination, affording the animal stereoscopic vision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 3 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said: He triangulates his shots through the eyes of birds. Oh, well, to be sure, I'd accept stuff like that. Or simply if it had been left vague how he does it. He could have had Brynden Rivers squinting over those death warrants he is signing in TMK, and have him wear a Myrish lense for a monocle in that scene. Dunk could have found it odd that this guy with obvious eye problems is supposed to be this great archer, but he could have shrugged it off as one of the many things he doesn't understand. Instead we get a guy who seems to be straight out of some Animé - whenever I hear about a one-eyed guy brushing his long hair in his face to hide his missing eye I have to think about that guy from Yu-Gi-Oh! and no longer can take anything seriously... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey family reunion Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 4 hours ago, Lord Varys said: Oh, well, to be sure, I'd accept stuff like that. Or simply if it had been left vague how he does it. He could have had Brynden Rivers squinting over those death warrants he is signing in TMK, and have him wear a Myrish lense for a monocle in that scene. Dunk could have found it odd that this guy with obvious eye problems is supposed to be this great archer, but he could have shrugged it off as one of the many things he doesn't understand. Instead we get a guy who seems to be straight out of some Animé - whenever I hear about a one-eyed guy brushing his long hair in his face to hide his missing eye I have to think about that guy from Yu-Gi-Oh! and no longer can take anything seriously... I think the real answer is that GRRM always liked MIchael Moorcock's Elric series. ETA: to explain a bit further for the those who haven't been initiated to Moorcock. Melnibone was an island inhabited by dragon riders and powerful sorcerers. All were pale, and beautiful. Elric was even paler, being an albino, and an outcast. (And had no problem with his vision, but didn't like the sun too much). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 18 hours ago, Lord Varys said: Real world has to do with how albinos look like, though. It is just a fact that George's platinum blondes do look like albinos. They don't have to be specifically called 'albinos' to have all the physical features that describe albinos. We have actual albinos in the story and ones that are called as such. The "pale" peoples of Valyria are something different for reasons that are different. Simply put because this is a weird-ass discussion we are having, the ASOIAF albinos are more related to natural-tree-old gods "magics", whereas the Dany and Valyrians are more related to the (mad) scientist-genetic splicing-Hrangans. I'm taking a quick look now, and are you suggesting that this blonde guy from A Peripheral Affair is an albino? You mentioned something about this story a few posts back and I am curious to make sure we're talking about the same dude: There was a color photograph of Hollander on the file cover, showing a young man of medium height with a dark sun tan that spoke of birth under a sun harsher than Earth’s. His hair, so blond that it was almost white, was worn long and combed forward so it fell across his forehead to his eyebrows. His eyes were bright blue, and he was grinning crookedly at the camera, which was rather unusual for a fleet mug shot. Quote Real world also tells us that not all albinos have red eyes (only those with truly colorless irises). Bloodraven is a special albino in the sense that he has the red eyes, but that doesn't make all the other Targaryens with pale skin, platinum white hair, and bluish-purplish not albinos. Yes, it can, especially in Martin's own writing style. Quote The very idea that those people do not fit the description of albinos is refuted by a real world albino pictures. If George didn't want the Valyrians and Targaryens be albinos he shouldn't have described as one would albinos. Here would be another link for a bunch of real world Targaryens albinos: Gorgeous albinos (according to some weird page) Note that 'red eyes' mostly actually means 'purple eyes' in real people or at least the photographs of real people. So back in the late 60's-early 70's GRRM was googling what "true albinos" are rather than say, use purple in a fantastical creative way because it's his stated favorite color (his Tesla is purple), and Liz Taylor (another va-va-va-voom favorite) had 'purple' eyes? The what about the Daynes? And what about the Targ bastards that inherit nothing but purple eyes? And those monkeys in Essos? There are only two "entities" that GRRM has said are "inhumanly beautiful" in ASOIAF and they happen to both be the ones with blood-tinkered genes that signify they are not entirely of the same blood as other humans, and both are the major dragons of the title of the series- the ice dragon and then the fire dragon. It's the same with hair color. Silver and gold hair has a narrative purpose. As does Mel's red eyes and red hair... but her hair isn't plain ol'red. It is redder than anything else and is like fire. Sansa doesn't just have plain ol'red hair, she has auburn hair- browny red, and that is important. Lannisters don't have boring ol'blonde hair, they have gold hair. The white hair of Ghost, Ghost of High Heart, Bloodraven is specifically NOT related to the fire-blooded Targaryens (something BR rejected being). Quote Making Bloodraven an albino in an albino family really makes no sense. It makes PERFECT narrative sense. Brynden Bloodraven Rivers rejected being a Targaryen, he rejected the name which rejects that personal identity. It's the psychology of give a thing a name and it becomes that. ADDING because I just refound it: Give a thing a name and it will somehow come to be. George R. R. Martin from Dying of the Light Quote It is inadvertently funny since it is a dead giveaway that the author really didn't know or care about what it means to be albino BINGO! ...in a way. It means that Martin has his own rules and real world rules be damned. Quote ... as he showed by making his 'specific special albino', Bloodraven, into a great archer. Albinos don't have good eyesight, the author failed to portray that accurately, nor did he try to deal with that by making Bloodraven overcome his eyesight problems with sorcery. Although that would be a cheap trick it would at least have the author the real world issues albinos have to deal with. Trying to brush that aside by saying its fantasy doesn't fly. Then George could just as well giving us the Lucy Lawless Brienne I think I deserve, not to mention a proper super warrior dwarf and a proper fantasy unicorn. He usually tries to depict things realistically, but not with his albino fetish people. It's not just fantasy, it's GRRM Don't worry, I am adding all of this to the beer tab you will owe me once TWOW and Winds is out. I think you now are up to owing me (3,45,8,92,66, divided by 9...) 42 pints Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 33 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said: We have actual albinos in the story and ones that are called as such. The "pale" peoples of Valyria are something different for reasons that are different. The idea that Valyrians are albinos when we do actually have albinos in the story makes no sense whatsoever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 @The Fattest Leech You can make arbitrary distinctions based on your own interpretation preferences, but the point is that Maekar Targaryen, for instance, is just as much albino as Bloodraven - as are many other Targaryens. There is no distinction there. And I'd of course also make the point that George's work isn't some kind of silly precursor for ASoIaF - at best, ASoIaF is sort of the abortive end of his career, so to speak. He reuses motifs and looks and names he introduced earlier. Orys Baratheon and Argilac the Arrogant have nothing to do with the characters from those childish fantasy story he stopped writing when his peers ridiculed him in colleagues. But they have the same names, anyway. Targaryens and Lannisters are variations of Cyrain and Arkin and all the other characters with those traits - not the other way around. 42 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said: We have actual albinos in the story and ones that are called as such. The "pale" peoples of Valyria are something different for reasons that are different. Simply put because this is a weird-ass discussion we are having, the ASOIAF albinos are more related to natural-tree-old gods "magics", whereas the Dany and Valyrians are more related to the (mad) scientist-genetic splicing-Hrangans. Stuff like that is just nonsense - as it the idea that the Hrangans are mad or evil just because they were different. We don't even meet any Hrangans in any of the stories. If you wanted to make a comparison then the Valyrians could have some inspiration from the Prometheans - but then, there are fucked up people there like the guys from 'Starlady' and great guys like Melantha Jhirl. 42 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said: I'm taking a quick look now, and are you suggesting that this blonde guy from A Peripheral Affair is an albino? You mentioned something about this story a few posts back and I am curious to make sure we're talking about the same dude: There was a color photograph of Hollander on the file cover, showing a young man of medium height with a dark sun tan that spoke of birth under a sun harsher than Earth’s. His hair, so blond that it was almost white, was worn long and combed forward so it fell across his forehead to his eyebrows. His eyes were bright blue, and he was grinning crookedly at the camera, which was rather unusual for a fleet mug shot. He is an albino from a hot world - and the first time where George failed to properly write albinos. All people with naturally occurring platinum white hair are albinos. That is not a normal hair color - it is the kind of hair you get when you have color pigment issues. 42 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said: So back in the late 60's-early 70's GRRM was googling what "true albinos" are rather than say, use purple in a fantastical creative way because it's his stated favorite color (his Tesla is purple), and Liz Taylor (another va-va-va-voom favorite) had 'purple' eyes? The what about the Daynes? And what about the Targ bastards that inherit nothing but purple eyes? And those monkeys in Essos? Sure, George also likes his Elizabeth Taylor clones and his redheads, etc. but them albinos show up again and again and again. It gets annoying. Since I know how much the man is into such people I no longer can the Valyrians/Targaryen seriously. 42 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said: There are only two "entities" that GRRM has said are "inhumanly beautiful" in ASOIAF and they happen to both be the ones with blood-tinkered genes that signify they are not entirely of the same blood as other humans, and both are the major dragons of the title of the series- the ice dragon and then the fire dragon. Yeah, the narrative purpose is that the author feels pretty good while writing characters he would like to fuck in real life. It is not that strong in ASoIaF but very much so in 'The Glass Flower'. 42 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said: It's the same with hair color. Silver and gold hair has a narrative purpose. As does Mel's red eyes and red hair... but her hair isn't plain ol'red. It is redder than anything else and is like fire. Sansa doesn't just have plain ol'red hair, she has auburn hair- browny red, and that is important. Lannisters don't have boring ol'blonde hair, they have gold hair. The white hair of Ghost, Ghost of High Heart, Bloodraven is specifically NOT related to the fire-blooded Targaryens (something BR rejected being). I don't care what you think Bloodraven rejected or whether that's possible or relevant - I'm just saying Bloodraven looks like Maekar. And Melisandre is just a female variation of Williams' Pryrates - down to her red robe. 42 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said: BINGO! ...in a way. It means that Martin has his own rules and real world rules be damned. No, that's an author dropping the ball on describing albinos the way they are - both for the Targaryens and for Bloodraven. If you introduce real world conditions like albinism then you should properly depict that - meaning the Valyrians would have skin cancer issues and other health problems instead of being immune to many illnesses. 19 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said: The idea that Valyrians are albinos when we do actually have albinos in the story makes no sense whatsoever. Well, that give us the differences in the depiction of Maekar and Bloodraven? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 24 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: @The Fattest Leech You can make arbitrary distinctions based on your own interpretation preferences, but the point is that Maekar Targaryen, for instance, is just as much albino as Bloodraven - as are many other Targaryens. There is no distinction there. And I'd of course also make the point that George's work isn't some kind of silly precursor for ASoIaF - at best, ASoIaF is sort of the abortive end of his career, so to speak. He reuses motifs and looks and names he introduced earlier. Orys Baratheon and Argilac the Arrogant have nothing to do with the characters from those childish fantasy story he stopped writing when his peers ridiculed him in colleagues. But they have the same names, anyway. Targaryens and Lannisters are variations of Cyrain and Arkin and all the other characters with those traits - not the other way around. Uh, that's what I keep saying. Also, it literally can't be the other-other way around 24 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: Stuff like that is just nonsense - as it the idea that the Hrangans are mad or evil just because they were different. We don't even meet any Hrangans in any of the stories. Pfffft! And what and who caused the Double War? 24 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: If you wanted to make a comparison then the Valyrians could have some inspiration from the Prometheans - but then, there are fucked up people there like the guys from 'Starlady' and great guys like Melantha Jhirl. The Prometheans in the way that they mess with genetic manipulation, sure. That's what I've been saying. 24 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: He is an albino from a hot world - and the first time where George failed to properly write albinos. All people with naturally occurring platinum white hair are albinos. That is not a normal hair color - it is the kind of hair you get when you have color pigment issues. Sure, George also likes his Elizabeth Taylor clones and his redheads, etc. but them albinos show up again and again and again. It gets annoying. Since I know how much the man is into such people I no longer can the Valyrians/Targaryen seriously. Yeah, the narrative purpose is that the author feels pretty good while writing characters he would like to fuck in real life. It is not that strong in ASoIaF but very much so in 'The Glass Flower'. I don't care what you think Bloodraven rejected or whether that's possible or relevant - I'm just saying Bloodraven looks like Maekar. Except Maekar has purple eyes and not the same build as BR, so, just pale gold hair (not BR's white) 24 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: And Melisandre is just a female variation of Williams' Pryrates - down to her red robe. Really? Ummm, no, Melisandre comes almost exactly directly from Morgan Full of Magic and Lies from Bitterblooms, down to her red robe, red hair, fire brazier, visions, lies about magics, etc, etc, etc. 24 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: No, that's an author dropping the ball on describing albinos the way they are - both for the Targaryens and for Bloodraven. He's been 'dropping the ball' for 40ish years?!?! What the hell are we doing reading his stories then if he can't keep details straight!?!?! I guess this means we'll never see Ghost juggle 24 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: If you introduce real world conditions like albinism then you should properly depict that - meaning the Valyrians would have skin cancer issues and other health problems instead of being immune to many illnesses. Right, exactly, but Martin is following his own rules. The same with the multi-generational (and controlling) incest. NOOOO, I'm not falling for any more of this particular discussion with you... unless you buy a few more rounds first 24 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: Well, that give us the differences in the depiction of Maekar and Bloodraven? Ummm, because they are different in archetype and have different narrative purposes (as partially noted above). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 33 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said: Except Maekar has purple eyes and not the same build as BR, so, just pale gold hair (not BR's white) Bloodraven and Maegor look nothing like each other, I have no idea where @Lord Varys got that from. ETA: my bad, I misread Maegor when LV was talking about Maekar. Still, change the Targ but I maintain what I said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morte Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 20 hours ago, Lord Varys said: Making Bloodraven an albino in an albino family really makes no sense. It is inadvertently funny since it is a dead giveaway that the author really didn't know or care about what it means to be albino ... as he showed by making his 'specific special albino', Bloodraven, into a great archer. Albinos don't have good eyesight, the author failed to portray that accurately, nor did he try to deal with that by making Bloodraven overcome his eyesight problems with sorcery. Although that would be a cheap trick it would at least have the author the real world issues albinos have to deal with. Trying to brush that aside by saying its fantasy doesn't fly. Then George could just as well giving us the Lucy Lawless Brienne I think I deserve, not to mention a proper super warrior dwarf and a proper fantasy unicorn. He usually tries to depict things realistically, but not with his albino fetish people. He clearly didn't care, as you said. He just thinks they are beautiful, so he uses them. And yes: Making Bloodraven an Albino within a family of Albinos is kind of bogus, but hey: ... It's just the same as with naval warfare - unfortunately, the author did not care. 10 hours ago, Aldarion said: GRRM does not understand genetics? Valyrians are quite clearly supposed to be Romans, with Valyrian peninsula being Apennine peninsula, but it is too large and too south for that to work. And Valyrians themselves are far paler than Romans. In fact, they look as if they come from underground or some permanent-night place (as Lord Varys points out, they are basically albinos). I don't think GRRM did put much thoughts into this; he clearly did not take a read on genetics, nor did he look up problems the condition "Albino" can cause to the person. Also: Of course the fair skin is neither natural nor practical nor healthy as far south as Valyria. But I wouldn't be surprised if we would be told that the strange colouring is a side-effect of the magic done to create the dragons and Valyrians-as-we-know-them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 2 minutes ago, Morte said: He clearly didn't care, as you said. He just thinks they are beautiful, so he uses them. And yes: Making Bloodraven an Albino within a family of Albinos is kind of bogus, but hey: ... It's just the same as with naval warfare - unfortunately, the author did not care. I don't think GRRM did put much thoughts into this; he clearly did not take a read on genetics, nor did he look up problems the condition "Albino" can cause to the person. Also: Of course the fair skin is neither natural nor practical nor healthy as far south as Valyria. But I wouldn't be surprised if we would be told that the strange colouring is a side-effect of the magic done to create the dragons and Valyrians-as-we-know-them. Or, it could be more “natural” with dragon blood when you consider places of dragon origins like Asshai, and Asshai by the Shadow. Again, another The Glass Flower/Cyrain of Lilith and Ash reference point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted July 21, 2020 Author Share Posted July 21, 2020 18 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said: Or, it could be more “natural” with dragon blood when you consider places of dragon origins like Asshai, and Asshai by the Shadow. Or maybe it's to do with the volcanoes??? Valyria seems to be Mauna Kea levels of volcanic activity so maybe all that sulfur and what not in the atmosphere led to limited UV rays and cooler temperatures, thus no need for darker skin? Still doesn't explain the Qartheen though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 9 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: Or maybe it's to do with the volcanoes??? Valyria seems to be Mauna Kea levels of volcanic activity so maybe all that sulfur and what not in the atmosphere led to limited UV rays and cooler temperatures, thus no need for darker skin? Still doesn't explain the Qartheen though They are like some other "spider people" equivalent, in a (not literal) related way. There was a good theory with lots of text added that I will have to find and post. Something a little closer to a type of story that he likes to read and write about; a mixed bag of "extraterrestrial" races, but in a human-fantasy way rather than scifi. That's the simplest way I can describe it with just a few minutes before I have to drive off... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey family reunion Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 Well clearly they (Valyrians) aren’t albinos, or at least Dany isn’t: Quote The merchant must have taken her for Dothraki, with her clothes and her oiled hair and sun-browned skin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted July 22, 2020 Share Posted July 22, 2020 3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said: Well clearly they (Valyrians) aren’t albinos, or at least Dany isn’t: That is just another wrong portrayal of albinos - their skin doesn't get brown the way Dany's does. Or rather: It would be very painful if she tried to get brown. Not to mention that albinos come in all shape and forms, meaning there could and likely would be Dothraki who are albinos. 4 hours ago, kissdbyfire said: Bloodraven and Maegor look nothing like each other, I have no idea where @Lord Varys got that from. ETA: my bad, I misread Maegor when LV was talking about Maekar. Still, change the Targ but I maintain what I said. The only difference between these two is that Bloodraven doesn't pox marks, and lacks the red eyes - as many albinos do. Aside from that, they look alike. All Targaryens with hair as silvery/fair/blond that 'it almost looked white' are full-blown albinos - because that's how albinos look like. 5 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said: Uh, that's what I keep saying. Also, it literally can't be the other-other way around Unless I'm mistaken you are reading a lot of ASoIaF stuff into the early stories, no? 5 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said: Pfffft! And what and who caused the Double War? The Fyndii, the Hrangans, and the Federal Empire, of course. We don't know much about it, to be sure, but we know how fucked up humans in that era were from both 'The Hero' and 'Greywater Station'. 5 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said: Except Maekar has purple eyes and not the same build as BR, so, just pale gold hair (not BR's white) I didn't talk about build but looks. Maekar has hair so pale that it almost looks white. Albinos have exactly the same hair as pictures do show - most albino white isn't the same white we get in old age. It is the platinum white/silver-gold stuff we get in the books. 5 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said: Really? Ummm, no, Melisandre comes almost exactly directly from Morgan Full of Magic and Lies from Bitterblooms, down to her red robe, red hair, fire brazier, visions, lies about magics, etc, etc, etc. Nah, the entire plot setting of the evil king led astray by some red-robed priest is taken straight from Tad Williams. The Morgan woman is a completely different character. 5 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said: He's been 'dropping the ball' for 40ish years?!?! What the hell are we doing reading his stories then if he can't keep details straight!?!?! I'm not saying he wanted all those other people to be albinos - they are mostly individuals there, not entire dynasties/peoples. The ridiculous thing is that he has an albino born to a family of albinos. Which is kind of redundant. 5 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said: Right, exactly, but Martin is following his own rules. The same with the multi-generational (and controlling) incest. His own rules idealize and twists things around, assuming they actually exist. With the incest we have a family of inbred albinos who did that for thousands of years. One can, perhaps, assume that they bred out most of the health issues, but albinism comes with health issues attached. You cannot bred the skin thing and the eyes thing out of an albino bloodline. 5 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said: Ummm, because they are different in archetype and have different narrative purposes (as partially noted above). The only archetype there is George's albino/blond people fetish. 5 hours ago, Morte said: He clearly didn't care, as you said. He just thinks they are beautiful, so he uses them. And yes: Making Bloodraven an Albino within a family of Albinos is kind of bogus, but hey: ... It's just the same as with naval warfare - unfortunately, the author did not care. I just realized this whole thing right now and like to rant about it. I always hated 'Bloodraven the healthy albino' but checking on albinos some more I remembered real albinos look like Targaryens, making Bloodraven a real joke. 5 hours ago, Morte said: Also: Of course the fair skin is neither natural nor practical nor healthy as far south as Valyria. But I wouldn't be surprised if we would be told that the strange colouring is a side-effect of the magic done to create the dragons and Valyrians-as-we-know-them. He has the maesters speculate about the Valyrians breeding themselves, comparing them to breeding animals. That does not indicate that the looks have any connection with the dragon magic stuff - that is about physical beauty, not so much about magic (also seen by the fact that you don't have to look Valyrian to become a dragonrider). If all the dragons were white and silver and gold and all combined then this could perhaps make some sense, but the way it is we can assume George just channeled Jorah fetishizing Valyrians when creating them ;-). There is no intentional system to this. That is also reflected in the way the author has those specific looks being something many people idealize and see as perfect beauty - not just the Westerosi with their rulers, but also the Lyseni breeding slaves with very distinct Valyrian looks, etc. Not to mention the ridiculousness to make an albino people connected to fire and dragons and stuff - if there are people we would intuitively not associate with heat and fire it's albinos. They would have made the perfect Others or even Starks if one imagines them as people associated with ice. George did that much better in 'The Ice Dragon', where Adara is pretty much another albino girl - which very much fits with her being a child of ice. 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Bobity. Posted July 22, 2020 Share Posted July 22, 2020 I have noticed a pattern of different Essos cultures taking on unique physiological characteristics with an affinity towards certain creatures. Dothraki - Horses Ghiscari - Harpy Leng - Tigers Its not very overt, but their is a theme of snakes in Quartheen culture. We first see snakes at Vaes Tolorro, which I believe had been established to be a ruin of a former larger regional Qarth based culture. Quote Dany settled down with her small band of survivors in the place they named Vaes Tolorro....children wandered the twisty alleys and found...stone flagons with handles carved like snakes. - A Clash of Kings - Daenerys I We are further shown snake imagery upon Dany's arrival at Qarth Quote On the walls of Qarth, men beat gongs to herald her coming, while others blew curious horns that encircled their bodies like great bronze snakes. - A Clash of Kings - Daenerys II and Quote She passed under a bronze arch fashioned in the likeness of two snakes mating, their scales delicate flakes of jade, obsidian, and lapis lazuli. - A Clash of Kings - Daenerys II With the most ancient of buildings shaped as a snake. Quote Dany had expected the House of the Undying Ones to be the most splendid of all, but she emerged from her palanquin to behold a grey and ancient ruin. Long and low, without towers or windows, it coiled like a stone serpent - A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV Why are the Qarth "Milk Men" so tall and pale? Me thinks an ancient religious affinity to snakes is the source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lollygag Posted July 22, 2020 Share Posted July 22, 2020 I get the impression that some people on this forum have no idea how blondes work. Being tow-headed or nearly so and having very fair skin that still darkens a lot with no problem isn't in the slightest unusual. ------------------------------------------------------ I've seen purple eyes as just a marker of being special, unusual or different in literature. When it comes to eye color, there aren't a lot of options: Red - evil or linked to being albino Orange/yellow - hazel or light brown are normal colors; more strictly orange/yellow is linked to animals Green - normal color Blue - normal color Purple - unusual but believable Brown/black - normal colors White - death. So what other options are out there for marking someone as different? Targs also often have eyes that almost black. Not the color to go for when trying to indicate albinism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted July 22, 2020 Share Posted July 22, 2020 On 7/19/2020 at 8:53 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said: So ASOIAF generally has pretty sound anthropology, with skin color varying with latitude, with Summer Islander and Sothoryosi probably being very near the equator. But then there's the Valyrians and Qartheen that are literally the whitest things in this worst, even whiter and paler then the Andals and First men, and yet they come from a latitude that has the Ghiscari and that is bellow the Dothraki. So what gives? I can't remember how the Qartheen look like but with the Valyrians it seems to come down to beauty standards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted July 22, 2020 Share Posted July 22, 2020 10 hours ago, Lollygag said: I get the impression that some people on this forum have no idea how blondes work. Being tow-headed or nearly so and having very fair skin that still darkens a lot with no problem isn't in the slightest unusual. For people with very pale skin it is rather difficult/dangerous to get dark skin. A realistical depiction of Targaryens would have them all wear hats outside and ensure that their skin is protected from sunlight. Else most of them would die of skin cancer pretty early - and prior to that they would have to deal with sunburns the entire time. 10 hours ago, Lollygag said: Targs also often have eyes that almost black. Not the color to go for when trying to indicate albinism. Not often, one or two have such eyes. Albinos with colorless irises do have 'red eyes' - although they look more pinkish violet than red. But not all albinos have colorless irises - many do have bluish or violet eyes. Again, if you go look at real albinos they all look like George's Valyrians. The important issue is that it is ridiculous to assume Bloodraven is an albino when the Targaryens themselves are already described as albinos without the author realizing this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted July 22, 2020 Share Posted July 22, 2020 4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: The important issue is that it is ridiculous to assume Bloodraven is an albino when the Targaryens themselves are already described as albinos without the author realizing this. No one is “assuming” Bloodraven is an albino, since we have the author clearly and plainly stating it. You don’t like it, you think it makes no sense, and that’s fine. But you can’t just bend the text so that it will fit your beliefs and ideas. In ASoIaF Targs have light skin, weird fantasy purple/lilac/indigo eyes and very light coloured hair; many are otherworldly beautiful; none of that makes them albinos just b/c you want them to be and disagree w/ what the author has done. It’s Martin’s world, he gets to play by his own rules. Whether you like/agree or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted July 22, 2020 Share Posted July 22, 2020 5 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said: No one is “assuming” Bloodraven is an albino, since we have the author clearly and plainly stating it. You don’t like it, you think it makes no sense, and that’s fine. But you can’t just bend the text so that it will fit your beliefs and ideas. In ASoIaF Targs have light skin, weird fantasy purple/lilac/indigo eyes and very light coloured hair; many are otherworldly beautiful; none of that makes them albinos just b/c you want them to be and disagree w/ what the author has done. It’s Martin’s world, he gets to play by his own rules. Whether you like/agree or not. I phrased that poorly. It makes no sense to call Bloodraven an albino when his father and uncle and one of his half-brothers and many of his parental kin also were albinos. What doesn't make sense is to pretend that the Valyrians and the Targaryens do not also fit the descriptions of albinos - and thus are albinos even if the author doesn't realize this. Viserys and Dany could have been played by albino actors without having to wear those bad wigs - because albinos do look like Targaryens. And this whole thing clashes rather severely with George's other intentions to depict things 'realistically', i.e. his depiction of Brienne as muscular, heavily built warrior rather than a clichéd fantasy woman warrior, his decision to not have four-legged dragons (because it would make no sense that there would be six-legged vertebrates), his decision to try to portray kingship and politics realistically, etc. It is quite clear the man never properly researched albinism - both when he had his Valyrians there, but especially with Bloodraven himself who definitely shouldn't be a great natural archer if he actually was an albino. A fantasy albino is a meaningless concept - like fantasy horses or fantasy pigs or fantasy pigeons. If you use a real world concept you use it either the way it is in the real world, or you establish in detail how it is different from the real world concept - which isn't done for albinos in this case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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