An interesting topic I found on Reddit about the villains of ASOIAF

[SeanF]

7 hours ago, Wolf's Bane said:

I disagree with much of it.  Jon is indeed a bad guy.  Yes, it was unintentional, but he is nevertheless a harmful element to the survival of mankind.  He knew his actions would hurt the watch but he still chose to take his sister, the girl who he thought was Arya, away from the Boltons.  If we take the survival of mankind to be what is good, then it is very clear that Jon Snow decreased those chances when he engaged in the attempts to take his sister away from the Boltons.  He also chose to ignore justice and gave in to his feelings with regards to the judgment of two sworn brothers of the watch who committed crimes.  I am referring to Mance Rayder and Janos Slynt.  So yes, the author of this "article" does not really have inside knowledge.  He is just another commentator with an opinion.  An opinion which I, for the most part, disagree with.  It is very clear to me that Jon Snow is a "villain."  The George Martin villain is not the cartoon bad guy who plots evil because he just loves to do evil things for giggles.  The Martin villain is a compromised person who knowingly does what he knows to cause harm, but does it anyway because his heart has other priorities than what is the greater good.  Selfishness is one motivation.  But love is another strong emotion which can lead people to do destructive things.  Jon's love for Arya led him to betray the watch and his choices will lead to the collapse of the mankind's best defense against the Others, the Night's Watch.  

George is a hypocrite if he chooses to condemn a character for using force to fight slavery.  He has gone on record as saying he would have fought the Nazis in World War II.  Anybody who says war and violence are never justified, not for any reason, is a crackpot.  I do not believe George is a crackpot.  Daenerys Targaryen chose to fight slavery and that is a very noble goal.  It should be the duty of anybody who has the means to do so to fight slavery.  So far, Daenerys has been the heroine of A Song of Ice and Fire.  

 

"Whoever saves a life saves the world."

Jon's motivation is to save lives, whether the lives of the people North of the Wall, or the lives of "Arya" and others who suffer at the hands of the Boltons.  Perhaps he has bitten off more than he can chew (arguably, so has Daenerys) but that doesn't alter the fact that his motives and actions are morally good. So, no he is not a villain.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

Well the villain isn't a person I think, but rather war, and all those who facilitate it. GRRM puts it best with this

Quote

There are many sorts of outlaws, just as there are many sorts of birds. A sandpiper and a sea eagle both have wings, but they are not the same. The singers love to sing of good men forced to go outside the law to fight some wicked lord, but most outlaws are more like this ravening Hound than they are the lightning lord. They are evil men, driven by greed, soured by malice, despising the gods and caring only for themselves. Broken men are more deserving of our pity, though they may be just as dangerous. Almost all are common-born, simple folk who had never been more than a mile from the house where they were born until the day some lord came round to take them off to war. Poorly shod and poorly clad, they march away beneath his banners, ofttimes with no better arms than a sickle or a sharpened hoe, or a maul they made themselves by lashing a stone to a stick with strips of hide. Brothers march with brothers, sons with fathers, friends with friends. They've heard the songs and stories, so they go off with eager hearts, dreaming of the wonders they will see, of the wealth and glory they will win. War seems a fine adventure, the greatest most of them will ever know.

Then they get a taste of battle.

For some, that one taste is enough to break them. Others go on for years, until they lose count of all the battles they have fought in, but even a man who has survived a hundred fights can break in his hundred-and-first. Brothers watch their brothers die, fathers lose their sons, friends see their friends trying to hold their entrails in after they've been gutted by an axe.

They see the lord who led them there cut down, and some other lord shouts that they are his now. They take a wound, and when that's still half-healed they take another. There is never enough to eat, their shoes fall to pieces from the marching, their clothes are torn and rotting, and half of them are shitting in their breeches from drinking bad water.

If they want new boots or a warmer cloak or maybe a rusted iron halfhelm, they need to take them from a corpse, and before long they are stealing from the living too, from the smallfolk whose lands they're fighting in, men very like the men they used to be. They slaughter their sheep and steal their chickens, and from there it's just a short step to carrying off their daughters too. And one day they look around and realize all their friends and kin are gone, that they are fighting beside strangers beneath a banner that they hardly recognize. They don't know where they are or how to get back home and the lord they're fighting for does not know their names, yet here he comes, shouting for them to form up, to make a line with their spears and scythes and sharpened hoes, to stand their ground. And the knights come down on them, faceless men clad all in steel, and the iron thunder of their charge seems to fill the world . . .

And the man breaks.

He turns and runs, or crawls off afterward over the corpses of the slain, or steals away in the black of night, and he finds someplace to hide. All thought of home is gone by then, and kings and lords and gods mean less to him than a haunch of spoiled meat that will let him live another day, or a skin of bad wine that might drown his fear for a few hours. The broken man lives from day to day, from meal to meal, more beast than man. Lady Brienne is not wrong. In times like these, the traveler must beware of broken men, and fear them . . . but he should pity them as well.

 

[SeanF]

The other point about heroes/villains is that people can be antagonists to each other, while remaining sympathetic characters.

If Daenerys comes into conflict with Arianne Martell, I doubt if Martin will suddenly portray one of them as being Her Satanic Majesty/Fraulein Hitler.  Sympathetic people can still finish up fighting each other. 

[Hugorfonics]

The Ned was no hero, OP did a good job of listing why. However I disagree with his lable as a villain, which is of course how history will remember him, the self confessed traitor. 

 

Robb was not a villain. Yes his war killed thousands (millions?), but war is not monopolized by the villain. 

Why call Hoster a lord of a realm if Tywin can just invade it? Why did Aegon the dragons law say Robb could command an army if not to fight for the freedom of his father, uncle, grandfather and their subjects?

And if Robb was legally in the wrong then its time to examine what else with KLs law is wrong. 

Was Robb stubborn, mean, unfaithful to his fiancee? Sure! But these traits too are not monopolized by the villain.

 

Jon didnt do anything wrong!

Lol seriously though, while also an emo asshole who may have walked a thin line with beheading Janos Slynt, Ramsay said hes coming to war on the nw. Jons not braking any vows by allowing Ramsay to destroy the institution and give up his bastard heart. 

And even if he was, who cares? Braking oaths are not monopolized by the villain.

 

I do think we're seeing some villains blossom before our eyes though, yes possibly Lord Snow, but specifically the Stormborn and of course Tyrion Lannister

 

How was Arianna anything but a villain? She sought to tear the realm in half, brother vs sister, in the name of vengeance. Even if it was 20 year old vengeance with all perpetrators deceased. (It was actually though in the name of her paranoid jealousy, that her lord father wouldnt treat her like a princess)

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

How was Arianna anything but a villain? She sought to tear the realm in half, brother vs sister, in the name of vengeance. Even if it was 20 year old vengeance with all perpetrators deceased. (It was actually though in the name of her paranoid jealousy, that her lord father wouldnt treat her like a princess)

Arianne believes that she has been removed from the Dornish line of succession - a reasonable belief, given the evidence available to her.

That means that her life is in jeopardy, so far as she knows.  It's the Dornish version of the law of fratricide. She has to make her move or die - as she sees it.  Or at best, spend the rest of her life a prisoner, or in exile.

Now, we know, that Doran had other plans in mind for his daughter.  Foolishly, he never shared them with her.

[Springwatch]

22 hours ago, boltons are sick said:

And as a native Bulgarian I can tell you that during the war the English bombed our capital and killed tousands of innocent people.

War is bad. Many English cities got bombed to buggery if that's any consolation.

22 hours ago, boltons are sick said:

They even went so far as to throw toys on the streets tha were charged with explosives and many Bulgarian kids were torn to shreds by the explosives in question thrown by Churchill`s men.

Bullshit cold war propaganda out of a totalitarian communist state, sounds like. Even if we leave the moral objections aside, it is a fact that bomber crews died very easily - they're not going risk their lives playing out sadistic fantasies on children.

If you want to discuss asoiaf, you're in the right place. Find yourself some serious historians to discuss the rest.

[SeanF]

10 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

War is bad. Many English cities got bombed to buggery if that's any consolation.

Bullshit cold war propaganda out of a totalitarian communist state, sounds like. Even if we leave the moral objections aside, it is a fact that bomber crews died very easily - they're not going risk their lives playing out sadistic fantasies on children.

If you want to discuss asoiaf, you're in the right place. Find yourself some serious historians to discuss the rest.

Yes, that is bollocks.  Airmen don't chuck booby-trapped toys out of bombers, hundreds of feet in the air, that have only the remotest chance of landing anywhere near their target.

[frenin]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

That means that her life is in jeopardy, so far as she knows.  It's the Dornish version of the law of fratricide. She has to make her move or die

What?? It's just that her father removes her from power, the rest it's very odd to think.

[Frey family reunion]

15 hours ago, SeanF said:

Jon's motivation is to save lives, whether the lives of the people North of the Wall, or the lives of "Arya" and others who suffer at the hands of the Boltons.  Perhaps he has bitten off more than he can chew (arguably, so has Daenerys) but that doesn't alter the fact that his motives and actions are morally good. So, no he is not a villain.

I agree that Jon isn't a villain.  I don't really think his motivation by going to Winterfell is to save Arya though.  After all according to the Pink Letter, Ramsay's "bride" escaped.  So Jon isn't really travelling to Winterfell to save anyone.  He's going there to take retribution on the people that sacked Winterfell and killed the friends and family and return Winterfell to the Starks.  (Perhaps even if that "Stark" happens to be him, but we shall see).  

[SeanF]

15 minutes ago, frenin said:

What?? It's just that her father removes her from power, the rest it's very odd to think.

It's not odd.  She may have the wrong end of the stick, but her chapter with Ser Arys Oakheart shows that she is really frightened about her prospects. She compares herself to Rhaenyra, and fears a similar fate.   Her subsequent musings, after the failure of her coup, also reveal her fears.  She really does believe that her father could torture her to death.

Nobody wants to keep around a person who has a better claim to the throne than they have.  What we learn subsequently of Quentyn suggests that he would never execute his sister.  But, Arianne doesn't know this.  The real problem with the Martells is that people just don't talk to each other.

[The Wolves]

22 hours ago, Wolf's Bane said:

 

Jon is hurting the chances of mankind's survival because he created conflict with the Boltons over his sister.  

Mankind’s survival has no chance with the likes of the Boltons around or in power. 

[Hugorfonics]

33 minutes ago, SeanF said:

It's not odd.  She may have the wrong end of the stick, but her chapter with Ser Arys Oakheart shows that she is really frightened about her prospects. She compares herself to Rhaenyra, and fears a similar fate.  

She's manipulating Ser Arys. 

33 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Her subsequent musings, after the failure of her coup, also reveal her fears.  She really does believe that her father could torture her to death.

Umm, not really.

Quote

Why would her father go to such great pains to provide for her comfort in captivity if he had marked her for a traitor's death? He cannot mean to kill me, she told herself a hundred times. He does not have it in him to be so cruel. I am his blood and seed, his heir, his only daughter.

 

 

[frenin]

57 minutes ago, SeanF said:

It's not odd.  She may have the wrong end of the stick, but her chapter with Ser Arys Oakheart shows that she is really frightened about her prospects.

It's odd as her father and brother would not just randomly kill her, she only thinks that because that's honestly, something she'd do.

 

58 minutes ago, SeanF said:

She compares herself to Rhaenyra, and fears a similar fate.

No, she doesn't,

 

Quote

"You twist my words. I never said . . . Dorne is different. The Seven Kingdoms have never had a ruling queen."
"The first Viserys intended his daughter Rhaenyra to follow him, do you deny it? But as the king lay dying the Lord Commander of his Kingsguard decided that it should be otherwise."
Ser Criston Cole. Criston the Kingmaker had set brother against sister and divided the Kingsguard against itself, bringing on the terrible war the singers named the Dance of the Dragons. Some claimed he acted from ambition, for Prince Aegon was more tractable than his willful older sister. Others allowed him nobler motives, and argued that he was defending ancient Andal custom. A few whispered that Ser Criston had been Princess Rhaenyra's lover before he took the white and wanted vengeance on the woman who had spurned him. "The Kingmaker wrought grave harm," Ser Arys said, "and gravely did he pay for it, but . . ."

 

She's talking about  Myrce here.

 

 

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

Her subsequent musings, after the failure of her coup, also reveal her fears.  She really does believe that her father could torture her to death.

Nobody wants to keep around a person who has a better claim to the throne than they have.  What we learn subsequently of Quentyn suggests that he would never execute his sister.  But, Arianne doesn't know this.  The real problem with the Martells is that people just don't talk to each other.

This is Arianne's problem, not the Martells, none of the Martells but Arianne and the Sand Snakes, seem are depicted as kinslayers or people that would go to war against their own blood and Arianne ought to know her family better than that,  There is a say in Spanish that translated would go as this, "The thieves believes everyone at his level".

So no, the only thing that really motivates her is power.

[Angel Eyes]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

It's not odd.  She may have the wrong end of the stick, but her chapter with Ser Arys Oakheart shows that she is really frightened about her prospects. She compares herself to Rhaenyra, and fears a similar fate.   Her subsequent musings, after the failure of her coup, also reveal her fears.  She really does believe that her father could torture her to death.

Nobody wants to keep around a person who has a better claim to the throne than they have.  What we learn subsequently of Quentyn suggests that he would never execute his sister.  But, Arianne doesn't know this.  The real problem with the Martells is that people just don't talk to each other.

That's the big problem with Doran: he's too secretive. People who should be privy to his plans aren't, and wind up screwing it up, ie Viserys was locked out of the loop about a betrothal to Arianne, bounced around for eight years, and then got molten gold poured on his head because he was too impatient to wait longer. It also screwed up Quentyn's quest; similar to how Doran sent Oberyn to King's Landing with the cream of Dorne's crop, he could have done the same with Quentyn, sent the best of Dorne to wow Daenerys.

But nooo, he has Quentyn and a niche group of friends on a mission of secrecy that was obvious by the secrecy (he could have just said that Quentyn and Cletus were on holiday to visit Norvos to give an example), that resulted in the other high-ranking member of that band (Cletus) getting killed before we even meet him, Quentyn and his friends having to join a sellsword company that they survived only by luck, so that once he got to Daenerys she was underwhelmed, he was too late to reach her before she made a marriage alliance that upended the plan, and made him desperate enough to attempt to tame a dragon.

[illrede]

1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

That's the big problem with Doran: he's too secretive. People who should be privy to his plans aren't, and wind up screwing it up, ie Viserys was locked out of the loop about a betrothal to Arianne, bounced around for eight years, and then got molten gold poured on his head because he was too impatient to wait longer. It also screwed up Quentyn's quest; similar to how Doran sent Oberyn to King's Landing with the cream of Dorne's crop, he could have done the same with Quentyn, sent the best of Dorne to wow Daenerys.

But nooo, he has Quentyn and a niche group of friends on a mission of secrecy that was obvious by the secrecy (he could have just said that Quentyn and Cletus were on holiday to visit Norvos to give an example), that resulted in the other high-ranking member of that band (Cletus) getting killed before we even meet him, Quentyn and his friends having to join a sellsword company that they survived only by luck, so that once he got to Daenerys she was underwhelmed, he was too late to reach her before she made a marriage alliance that upended the plan, and made him desperate enough to attempt to tame a dragon.

There isn't a reasonable expectation that if Doran wasn't as secretive as he was that it would not be all over Doran that Quentyn was off to bring back the Targaryan queen, with celebrations and street entertainers using it for act material. If avoiding word getting back to Kings Landing is as vital as presented, a competent appraisal of Viserys and Arianne at the time all this was happening would also leave you with no choice but to leave them directly out of the loop, and work through their proxies (bear in mind that Viserys not being told about it- ever- was the choice of his guardian, not Doran, and Daenerys' analysis after being informed of the plot by Quentyn vindicated that- that Viserys would have gone immediately to Dorne, heedlessly). Doran had a choice of problems, the problems he chose to have (among them that a rough shape of his activities would be found out by his own nation's pervasive spying and intriguing) gave him a path to success and it could have worked. It didn't, but it very well might have done.

Arriane bet her life on her own plot, and she certainly thought the stakes of discovery was her own murder. She still couldn't maintain her information security while being fully aware of this at every moment- Doran is vindicated here, he doesn't get the option of having young Arianne as an ally, she needs to be kept ignorant for the safety of Dorne. It sucks for him but it's the unmitigated reality- that Arianne could not keep an intrigue secret to save her life even if she fully appreciated the stakes was empirically proven. Doran anticipating that and acting on it recommends him. For Viserys we have to rely on Daenerys read at the time but bear in mind how he came to meet his death- the man could not wait to save his life, and he refused to be restrained, again to save to life. Intrigue is likewise a fixture of the Dornish body politic- that there was a plan to be discovered was unavoidable- Arianne found out enough to details to lead to unanticipated disasters (she is not incompetent, Doran had no intention of disinheriting her, he just accurately judged that she could not keep a confidence of this nature at that time and couldn't lie to himself well enough to think that he was wrong about that), but that isn't something Doran has the power to be sure of.

[Stubby]

[MOD]

This thread will be closely monitored for references to the show and discussion that is simply there to hate on characters.

Please keep it within the rules.

[/MOD]

[frenin]

9 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

That's the big problem with Doran: he's too secretive. People who should be privy to his plans aren't, and wind up screwing it up

Nah, his plans are bad and the fact that plays too close to his chests means that at the end it ends up being useless. Should have listened to Ellaria instead of the plain characters he has for nieces.

 

 

8 hours ago, illrede said:

(bear in mind that Viserys not being told about it- ever- was the choice of his guardian, not Doran, and Daenerys' analysis after being informed of the plot by Quentyn vindicated that- that Viserys would have gone immediately to Dorne, heedlessly

Which honestly is what he should've done... When planned Doran to act??

His plan by itself was going to be shattered quite easily by the STABL alliance, Cersei gently offered three windows of opportunity and he still waited and waited and waited. So much he waited than the old players died and there was a completely different game going on he didn't really know how to adapt to it.

 

 

8 hours ago, illrede said:

Arriane bet her life on her own plot, and she certainly thought the stakes of discovery was her own murder.

 

8 hours ago, illrede said:

She still couldn't maintain her information security while being fully aware of this at every moment

The Prince of Dorne isn't Robert however, the fact that Arianne couldn't keep a secret from his father doesn't mean she couldn't keep a secret from King's Landing.

 

 

[Rose of Red Lake]

On 7/20/2020 at 12:11 PM, boltons are sick said:

Ned has the choice of saving millions by simply bowing to Joffery. But he doesn't. He chooses to kill millions by starting a war by not bowing. He justifies this through his honor. Makes sense right? No, it doesnt. You see his honor is fucked and far from consistent. He is willing to bend his honor anytime its convenient. Jon Snow? Bowing to Robert? If he cared about bloodline he should have supported Dany, not Robert. He supported Robert because they were friends and justified it through a small Targ bloodline, but refuses to acknowledge the Mad Kings legit heirs. Robert was a terrible king and that didn't stop Ned from supporting him, so it shouldnt stop him from supporting Joffery. Ned could have supported Joffery and limited his damage to the realm the same way the council created a golden age of Westeros during the rule of Robert, a terrible king. He didn't care about bloodlines, he didnt care about who the "best king" would be. He refused Joffery's crown because of an extremely inconsistent honor code that is morally questionable. He starts a war for this honor code. Only after due we see the code questioned by George through characters like Jamie.

This gets a few details wrong and just hammers a point without seeing the nuances. Ned didn't believe that Joffrey was the true heir; that's why he did indeed support bloodlines - through Robert's elder brother. Ned didn't take Littlefinger's offer which means he didn't want to bide his time to play the game of thrones LF's way; but he was still willing to play the game of thrones his particular way. His way just wasn't smart/cunning enough. If he was smart/cunning there wouldn't be a war and Ned would have won. That's the opposite of villainy to my mind (it's just foolishness). Eventually, he did bow to Joffrey, he just did it as a prisoner. And Joffrey was a loose canon - an 8th grader with absolute power - that's a war waiting to start no matter what Ned does. Most of his motives are for his family. Concern/love for family is pretty important; it shows you still have your humanity and aren't a merciless killing machine or a duty robot. 

[Rose of Red Lake]

On 7/20/2020 at 12:11 PM, boltons are sick said:

DANY IS ALREADY BAD! The swap happened back in book 1-2. Ever since she desired the throne. She will take the throne by force because it wont be given to her. And that will mean killing millions. Her "switch" in the books will be that of the readers perspective, not of Dany's character. Readers view her as the hero until she steps on Westeros. Then we see her as she is - a villain. And it will be up to Jon to stop her. This is why George will kill Dany off.

This is a bit more on point. All they had to say was, power doesn't necessarily corrupt, it reveals (x). This is what Dany always wanted to do, there were just a lot of things put in her way to tempt her away from that, and also cause readers to believe that she is something different. But Head!Viserys and Head!Jorah having the last say in Dany’s internal argument with herself suggests that she won’t just use her power irresponsibly, she’ll use it abusively. 

As for Jon - nah not a villain. Just a dumbass like his dad and brother. Maybe even worse than them if he continues to be a fool even after his resurrection. 

[boltons are sick]

18 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

This gets a few details wrong and just hammers a point without seeing the nuances. Ned didn't believe that Joffrey was the true heir; that's why he did indeed support bloodlines - through Robert's elder brother. Ned didn't take Littlefinger's offer which means he didn't want to bide his time to play the game of thrones LF's way; but he was still willing to play the game of thrones his particular way. His way just wasn't smart/cunning enough. If he was smart/cunning there wouldn't be a war and Ned would have won. That's the opposite of villainy to my mind (it's just foolishness). Eventually, he did bow to Joffrey, he just did it as a prisoner. And Joffrey was a loose canon - an 8th grader with absolute power - that's a war waiting to start no matter what Ned does. Most of his motives are for his family. Concern/love for family is pretty important; it shows you still have your humanity and aren't a merciless killing machine or a duty robot. 

Actually, even if Ned had succeeded in arresting Joffrey and Cersei, he would still have to fight Tywin Lannister. War was unevitable in that case and he knew it. However, Cersei gave him TWO CHANCES to make peace with her before his arrest and he didn`t take them. The reason why most readers don`t see this is because the story is told from Ned`s perspective and he is a likeable character and for these reasons most people immediately side with him and don`t question his decisions. However, I agree that he is not a villain.