An interesting topic I found on Reddit about the villains of ASOIAF

[Targknight]

3 hours ago, R2D said:

No you look up the word anti villian.

So you don’t know what a anti-villain is?

[Davjos]

11 minutes ago, BloodyJollyRoger said:

So you don’t know what a anti-villain is?

Great comeback mate! 

[Targknight]

3 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

I know what an anti-villain is.

Catelyn did not kidnap Tyrion; she arrested Tyrion and she had good reason to do so. The evidence -- as she knew it -- pointed to Tyrion. And she tried to give him a fair trial. Tyrion would have gotten a fair trial if Robert only had a backbone and if Lysa wasn't a looney-toon. Catelyn never tried to execute Tyrion...

Daenerys did destabilize Meereen...but it was an accident. She didn't intentionally set out to destabilize Meereen. If she meant to destabilize Meereen, why did she stay so long? Anti-villains don't do bad things on accident (heroes and anti-heroes make mistakes), they intentionally do bad things for a good purpose.

Ned? Okay, Ned is a good example overall but I do want to say that it depends on perspective. Although Ned is really just doing his job (are cops anti-villains for "doing their job"), he made a mistake (again, anti-villains don't commit acts of evil and injustice by mistake!!!!!!!) by not investigating and corresponding with the Lord Commander. But it makes sense why he did what he did. Deserters don't really get fair trials though: you either go AWOL and abandon your post or you don't.

A anti-villain think they are good guys, but their are different types of anti-villains.

 

1). The evidence didn’t point to Tyrion. Littlefinger lied about the dagger. If she was smart.  Catelyn could had spoken to Tywin about it, so basically she kidnapped Tyrion for no reason. Tyrion was innocent. Catelyn’s sister poisoned Jon Arryn, and it was Catelyn responsible for the division with the Starks and Lannisters. 

2). Daenerys did destabilized Meereen, because she is a bad ruler. She thinks herself highly. Dany lacks wisdom, and isn’t politically savvy.  George critics different type of rulers. Fake Aegon is a better ruler than she will ever be.

3). Ned killed Arthur Dwayne, after Reed backstabbed him. He didn’t fight honorably. George critics that honor is flimsy.   

[Targknight]

1 minute ago, Davjos said:

Great comeback mate! 

You are a absolute genius. The highest level intellectual in the world. Clap.Clap.Clap. (Sarcastically) 

[BlackLightning]

7 minutes ago, BloodyJollyRoger said:

A anti-villain think they are good guys, but their are different types of anti-villains.

1). The evidence didn’t point to Tyrion. Littlefinger lied about the dagger. If she was smart.  Catelyn could had spoken to Tywin about it 

I stopped reading after this.

Did you literally fix your fingers to type out "If Catelyn was smart, she could have spoken to Tywin about it...."

BRUH. I can't.

You really think that that was a good idea?!?! Tywin Lannister, the man who hates Tyrion but still felt compelled to set half of the Riverlands on fire on his behalf, the man who more than likely ordered the murder of Rhaegar Targaryen's wife and children out of sheer spite that Elia Martell was chosen and not Cersei Lannister.

If you really think it was smart for Catelyn to go all the way to Casterly Rock and speak to Tywin Lannister about how she has reason to believe that his son Tyrion hired an assassin to kill her son AFTER an attempt had already been made on her son's life....then I rest my case.

The stupidity of it all...I just can't

[Davjos]

1 minute ago, BloodyJollyRoger said:

You are a absolute genius. The highest level intellectual in the world. Clap.Clap.Clap. (Sarcastically) 

You’re right it was childish and I’m sorry for that but how does Ned fighting in a war and killing AD or Cat not ‘talking to Tywin’ an antihero.  You say the evidence doesn’t point to Tyrion but give no evidence Cat possessed at the time, only hindsight. 
It’s becoming my catchphrase: ‘it’s fine to dislike a character but don’t lie about the reason why’

[Targknight]

Just now, BlackLightning said:

I stopped reading after this.

Did you literally fix your fingers to type out "If Catelyn was smart, she could have spoken to Tywin about it...."

BRUH. I can't.

If you really think it was smart for Catelyn to go all the way to Casterly Rock and speak to Tywin Lannister about how she has reason to believe Tyrion hired an assassin to kill her son AFTER an attempt had already been made on her son's life....then I rest my case.

The stupidity of it all...I just can't.

Tyrion didn’t send the assassin. Littlefinger did. It was Littlefinger’s dagger. She couldn’t piece something this simple. Catelyn couldn’t ask Robert, and her husband. Who is the Hand Of The King. To get the bottom of it. Tyrion laughed when she kidnapped him. Ned had a heart attack. Catelyn Stark started a war.

[Targknight]

4 minutes ago, Davjos said:

You’re right it was childish and I’m sorry for that but how does Ned fighting in a war and killing AD or Cat not ‘talking to Tywin’ an antihero.  You say the evidence doesn’t point to Tyrion but give no evidence Cat possessed at the time, only hindsight. 
It’s becoming my catchphrase: ‘it’s fine to dislike a character but don’t lie about the reason why’

The information she received is from Littlefinger. She isn’t smart to piece that Tyrion is being set up? Even I knew Tyrion was being set up. 

[Targknight]

5 minutes ago, Davjos said:

You’re right it was childish and I’m sorry for that but how does Ned fighting in a war and killing AD or Cat not ‘talking to Tywin’ an antihero.  You say the evidence doesn’t point to Tyrion but give no evidence Cat possessed at the time, only hindsight. 
It’s becoming my catchphrase: ‘it’s fine to dislike a character but don’t lie about the reason why’

Catelyn Tully kidnapped Tyrion, and send him to be executed in the Vale.

[BlackLightning]

Just now, BloodyJollyRoger said:

Tyrion didn’t send the assassin. Littlefinger did. It was Littlefinger’s dagger. She couldn’t piece something this simple. Catelyn couldn’t ask Robert, and her husband. Who is the Hand Of The King. To get the bottom of it. Tyrion laughed when she kidnapped him. Ned had a heart attack. Catelyn Stark started a war.

Didn't Littlefinger say that Tyrion was the last man who was known to possess the dagger? Didn't Littlefinger say that it was his dagger but he lost it in a bet to Tyrion?

Those are yes or no questions by the way.

It doesn't matter if he lied or not. Did she know that he was lying? Did she have any reason to suspect that he was lying to her?

@Lord Varys can you believe this tomfoolery. Apparently, it is Catelyn Stark's fault that she was deceived and manipulated by someone who deceived and manipulated Tywin Lannister. Apparently, Catelyn Stark would've been better off prancing into Casterly Rock to talk to Tywin Lannister about a crime she believes that his son committed.

[Targknight]

1 minute ago, BlackLightning said:

Didn't Littlefinger say that Tyrion was the last man who was known to possess the dagger? Didn't Littlefinger say that it was his dagger but he lost it in a bet to Tyrion?

Those are yes or no questions by the way.

It doesn't matter if he lied or not. Did she know that he was lying? Did she have any reason to suspect that he was lying to her?

@Lord Varys can you believe this tomfoolery. Apparently, it is Catelyn Stark's fault that she was deceived and manipulated by someone who deceived and manipulated Tywin Lannister. Apparently, Catelyn Stark would've been better off prancing into Casterly Rock to talk to Tywin Lannister about a crime she believes that his son committed.

Tyrion brought up a good point. Tyrion:”What kind of imbecile gives a assassin his own dagger”.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=exOBYU3TnsA

[BlackLightning]

5 minutes ago, BloodyJollyRoger said:

The information she received is from Littlefinger. She isn’t smart to piece that Tyrion is being set up? Even I knew Tyrion was being set up. 

I would hope you would know that Tyrion was being set-up. Every single person reading the book could figure that Tyrion was being set up.

You wanna know why that even someone like you knew that Tyrion was being set up? I'll let you in on a secret.

 

 

BECAUSE

YOU

ARE

THE

READER!!!!

YOU

KNOW

THINGS

THE

CHARACTERS

DO

NOT

KNOW!!!!

!!!!

[BlackLightning]

6 minutes ago, BloodyJollyRoger said:

Catelyn Tully kidnapped Tyrion, and send him to be executed in the Vale.

Okay, this is how I know you are trolling.

Either you are trolling or you are on planet Mars reading the book on Earth with a old telescope

[Targknight]

17 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Okay, this is how I know you are trolling.

Either you are trolling or you are on planet Mars reading the book on Earth with a old telescope

Now you resulted to petty insults. 

Why didn’t Catelyn question the information? If it is bad evidence. It is bad evidence.Tyrion was accused of murdering Jon Arryn as well. 

[BlackLightning]

2 minutes ago, BloodyJollyRoger said:

Now you resulted to petty insults. 

Why didn’t Catelyn question the information? If it is bad evidence. It is bad evidence.Tyrion was accused of murdering Jon Arryn as well. 

Petty insults?

Are you trolling? Because if you aren't trolling, then how can you think that it would be smart for Catelyn to confront Tywin Lannister about how she believes that his son tried to murder her son and that she received the information from Littlefinger?

LOL

By entertaining that idea that Cat would be better off at the mercy of the ever-vengeful Tywin Lannister who feels that the slightest slight against his House calls for extreme acts of violence, you are telling me that you either don't know what you're talking about or that you're trolling.

Which is it?

----

If it is bad evidence, ok. It will be solved at trial. That's what trials are for. Catelyn did question the information/evidence.....but as she is a smart woman, she realizes that she has to take things one thing at a time and that going to trial would set the record straight.

That's what a trial is for.

Cat wanted to Tyrion to be put on trial before the king but obviously waltzing into the Red Keep unannounced (and thus, without any good faith or assurances of security) with a captive Tyrion in tow when his sister is in a position of great power is a bad idea. She and her prisoner must be summoned.

Going to Riverrun is a bad move because it's too close to Lord Tywin's seat of power and it puts Riverrun and its smallfolk in the surrounding countryside in a very difficult position. Going back to Winterfell is neither feasible nor wise due to the distance. Going to the Eyrie though is a very good idea...

It would've gone well if Lysa wasn't a depraved, underhanded nutcase.

[Darth Sidious]

1 hour ago, BloodyJollyRoger said:

A anti-villain think they are good guys, but their are different types of anti-villains.

 

1). The evidence didn’t point to Tyrion. Littlefinger lied about the dagger. If she was smart.  Catelyn could had spoken to Tywin about it, so basically she kidnapped Tyrion for no reason. Tyrion was innocent. Catelyn’s sister poisoned Jon Arryn, and it was Catelyn responsible for the division with the Starks and Lannisters. 

2). Daenerys did destabilized Meereen, because she is a bad ruler. She thinks herself highly. Dany lacks wisdom, and isn’t politically savvy.  George critics different type of rulers. Fake Aegon is a better ruler than she will ever be.

3). Ned killed Arthur Dwayne, after Reed backstabbed him. He didn’t fight honorably. George critics that honor is flimsy.   

Daenerys did not destabilize Meereen.  The masters did that.  Daenerys liberated a quarter of a million slaves.  Their former masters refused to accept this and are working very hard to get back to their old ways.  It is they who are causing the destabilization.  Daenerys is a very capable leader, unlike Jon Snow.  George critiques leadership and Jon absolutely failed the test of leadership.  Daenerys is actually doing very well in Meereen.  The Harpy and the Ghiscari slavers are the problem.  They only need to cooperate and Meereen can make speedy progress.  There are ways to easily build an economy in this region.  Meereen is not a waste land like the north of Westeros.  There are oceans to fish.  The slaves who are now free have craft skills.  The Harpy is unfortunately attempting to stand in the way of progress.  

I do think Catelyn chose wrongly when she arrested Tyrion.  She put justice for her son above the welfare and safety of the people of the riverlands.  Getting justice for Bran was more important to Catelyn over the lives of many innocent people.  She was wrong to do that.  But let us consider her decisions based on her peer group.  It is accurate to say that the average noblewoman of Westeros would do as Catelyn did.  It is unfortunate and it is unjust that the nobles have less regard for the welfare of the smallfolk. And you know what, Catelyn is getting punished for it.  Cat's punishment is not easy.  George punishes the powerful who disregard the welfare of many people to pursue their own agendas.  Cases in point are Cat, Jon Snow, Theon, and Jorah Mormont.  

Well, we really have no idea how Arthur Dayne was taken down.  It looks fishy to me too.  The crannogman cheated is likely.  But we don't know and should wait before judging.  Ned Stark was a good man.  At least the mature Ned that we met in GOT.  He carried out the sentence and executed Gared.  It was his duty to do that.  His mistake was automatically assuming Gared to be a madman.  He should have listened to the man and made inquiries.  One lesson to learn in this series is to always take the time to listen.  If we judge Ned according to his peers, yes, he would look good.  They would have done the same to Gared.  

You can say Ned, Daenerys, and Catelyn are grey characters.  I think that would be fair.  But you would also have to put Tyrion, Jon, Robert, Sansa, Arya, and Stannis in the grey area.  I might actually put Stannis and Arya in the dark category.  

[Targknight]

32 minutes ago, Prince Rhaego's Soul said:

Daenerys did not destabilize Meereen.  The masters did that.  Daenerys liberated a quarter of a million slaves.  Their former masters refused to accept this and are working very hard to get back to their old ways.  It is they who are causing the destabilization.  Daenerys is a very capable leader, unlike Jon Snow.  George critiques leadership and Jon absolutely failed the test of leadership.  Daenerys is actually doing very well in Meereen.  The Harpy and the Ghiscari slavers are the problem.  They only need to cooperate and Meereen can make speedy progress.  There are ways to easily build an economy in this region.  Meereen is not a waste land like the north of Westeros.  There are oceans to fish.  The slaves who are now free have craft skills.  The Harpy is unfortunately attempting to stand in the way of progress.  

I do think Catelyn chose wrongly when she arrested Tyrion.  She put justice for her son above the welfare and safety of the people of the riverlands.  Getting justice for Bran was more important to Catelyn over the lives of many innocent people.  She was wrong to do that.  But let us consider her decisions based on her peer group.  It is accurate to say that the average noblewoman of Westeros would do as Catelyn did.  It is unfortunate and it is unjust that the nobles have less regard for the welfare of the smallfolk. And you know what, Catelyn is getting punished for it.  Cat's punishment is not easy.  George punishes the powerful who disregard the welfare of many people to pursue their own agendas.  Cases in point are Cat, Jon Snow, Theon, and Jorah Mormont.  

Well, we really have no idea how Arthur Dayne was taken down.  It looks fishy to me too.  The crannogman cheated is likely.  But we don't know and should wait before judging.  Ned Stark was a good man.  At least the mature Ned that we met in GOT.  He carried out the sentence and executed Gared.  It was his duty to do that.  His mistake was automatically assuming Gared to be a madman.  He should have listened to the man and made inquiries.  One lesson to learn in this series is to always take the time to listen.  If we judge Ned according to his peers, yes, he would look good.  They would have done the same to Gared.  

You can say Ned, Daenerys, and Catelyn are grey characters.  I think that would be fair.  But you would also have to put Tyrion, Jon, Robert, Sansa, Arya, and Stannis in the grey area.  I might actually put Stannis and Arya in the dark category.  

You have valid points except for Daenerys. Meereen is George’s criticism of the invasion of Iraq and Vietnam. Daenerys removed slavery. Many of those nobles left homeless, and are starving. She didn’t had a system in place. Nothing is meereen is changed. Daenerys is the new master of a city that is destabilized. 

[Targknight]

1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

Petty insults?

Are you trolling? Because if you aren't trolling, then how can you think that it would be smart for Catelyn to confront Tywin Lannister about how she believes that his son tried to murder her son and that she received the information from Littlefinger?

LOL

By entertaining that idea that Cat would be better off at the mercy of the ever-vengeful Tywin Lannister who feels that the slightest slight against his House calls for extreme acts of violence, you are telling me that you either don't know what you're talking about or that you're trolling.

Which is it?

----

If it is bad evidence, ok. It will be solved at trial. That's what trials are for. Catelyn did question the information/evidence.....but as she is a smart woman, she realizes that she has to take things one thing at a time and that going to trial would set the record straight.

That's what a trial is for.

Cat wanted to Tyrion to be put on trial before the king but obviously waltzing into the Red Keep unannounced (and thus, without any good faith or assurances of security) with a captive Tyrion in tow when his sister is in a position of great power is a bad idea. She and her prisoner must be summoned.

Going to Riverrun is a bad move because it's too close to Lord Tywin's seat of power and it puts Riverrun and its smallfolk in the surrounding countryside in a very difficult position. Going back to Winterfell is neither feasible nor wise due to the distance. Going to the Eyrie though is a very good idea...

It would've gone well if Lysa wasn't a depraved, underhanded nutcase.

Catelyn Stark was wrong to arrest Tyrion.  YOU FORGOT THAT HER HUSBAND IS THE HAND OF THE KING. SHOULD HAD BEEN BROUGHT TO HIS ATTENTION.

Lysa poisoned Jon Arryn to be with Littlefinger. Her plot would had been discovered. The Eryie is a dangerous place. Tyrion saved Catelyn’s life, and Tyrion pointed out doubts in her dumb accusations. The Trial was one sided. They wanted to sentence him to death. If Tyrion died, Tywin would executed her entire family.

[BlackLightning]

2 minutes ago, BloodyJollyRoger said:

Catelyn Stark was wrong to arrest Tyrion.  YOU FORGOT THAT HER HUSBAND IS THE HAND OF THE KING. SHOULD HAD BEEN BROUGHT TO HIS ATTENTION.

Lysa poisoned Jon Arryn to be with Littlefinger. Her plot would had been discovered. The Eryie is a dangerous place. Tyrion saved Catelyn’s life, and Tyrion pointed out doubts in her dumb accusations. The Trial was one sided. They wanted to sentence him to death. If Tyrion died, Tywin would executed her entire family.

It's official: you're trolling.

Because if you were the least bit serious, you would realize that Catelyn supported absolutely nothing of what occurred at the Eyrie and that she was taken completely by surprise by what she encountered there.

How is Cat supposed to bring it to Ned's attention. She obviously can't do it in person -- not immediately -- for several reasons; she had a hard enough time getting within spitting distance of King's Landing in disguise as it were....how is she going to get in with Tyrion and the rest of her retinue. She couldn't trust a rider with that kind of mission for -- again -- several reasons. She could send a message to Ned by raven but she'd have to get to a castle first. Which castles can she go to where she will have leave to send any message she want to any person she wanted without question or impediment? The top choices are Riverrun, the Eyrie and Winterfell. Riverrun is a bad idea, Winterfell is too far...that leaves the Eyrie.

Your point about Tyrion dying? Please, Tywin would've executed her entire family regardless. He came close enough as it were.

Yes, the plots of Lysa and Littlefinger would have been discovered with a real trial. Everyone with a brain knows that so it's good to know that you know it too. The fact that Lysa did everything she could to prevent an actual real trial without losing face supports that notion. So good for you.

Catelyn didn't start this war. You can put it on Littlefinger, Lysa, Ned, Cersei, Robert, Jaime, Stannis and Tywin (ding ding ding!!!) but not Cat. A lawful arrest void of any brutality doesn't give someone license to set hundreds of miles of countryside ablaze and put thousands of peasants to the sword. Like what the hell?

How is she wrong to arrest Tyrion? She and her son were nearly murdered by an assassin and the results of some detective work pointed to Tyrion. Which isn't hard to believe given that Tyrion opted to go for the Wall (relatively close) whereas everyone else he came to Winterfell with left the North. Are the police wrong to arrest and detain someone that they have reason to believe (aka evidence) committed a crime?

[Targknight]

1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

It's official: you're trolling.

Because if you were the least bit serious, you would realize that Catelyn supported absolutely nothing of what occurred at the Eyrie and that she was taken completely by surprise by what she encountered there.

How is Cat supposed to bring it to Ned's attention. She obviously can't do it in person -- not immediately -- for several reasons; she had a hard enough time getting within spitting distance of King's Landing in disguise as it were....how is she going to get in with Tyrion and the rest of her retinue. She couldn't trust a rider with that kind of mission for -- again -- several reasons. She could send a message to Ned by raven but she'd have to get to a castle first. Which castles can she go to where she will have leave to send any message she want to any person she wanted without question or impediment? The top choices are Riverrun, the Eyrie and Winterfell. Riverrun is a bad idea, Winterfell is too far...that leaves the Eyrie.

Your point about Tyrion dying? Please, Tywin would've executed her entire family regardless. He came close enough as it were.

Yes, the plots of Lysa and Littlefinger would have been discovered with a real trial. Everyone with a brain knows that so it's good to know that you know it too. The fact that Lysa did everything she could to prevent an actual real trial without losing face supports that notion. So good for you.

Catelyn didn't start this war. You can put it on Littlefinger, Lysa, Ned, Cersei, Robert, Jaime, Stannis and Tywin (ding ding ding!!!) but not Cat. A lawful arrest void of any brutality doesn't give someone license to set hundreds of miles of countryside ablaze and put thousands of peasants to the sword. Like what the hell?

How is she wrong to arrest Tyrion? She and her son were nearly murdered by an assassin and the results of some detective work pointed to Tyrion. Which isn't hard to believe given that Tyrion opted to go for the Wall (relatively close) whereas everyone else he came to Winterfell with left the North. Are the police wrong to arrest and detain someone that they have reason to believe (aka evidence) committed a crime?

All a read was gibberish. It is Catelyn who started the war. Let me show in a mathematical formula.

Catelyn(Catalyst)+Tyrion=Effect(The War). She kidnapped Tyrion. It wasn’t under the justice system. Their is no justice, but taking the law under her hands. She should had brought attention to her husband. Catelyn wasn’t patient.Maybe, Tywin would send Tyrion to the wall. He was eager to get rid of Tyrion.

In Russia their is a saying:”Tragedy of a foolish mind.” Catelyn was foolish.