The Lord of the Crossing Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 George is wrong if he is using Meereen to criticize Iraq and Vietnam. Those three situations are very different and I would question Mr. Martin's knowledge of politics and world events if he is trying to connect the three. U.S. invaded Irag on the premise that they had weapons of mass destruction and to remove Hussein. The U. S. went to Vietnam because of colliding political beliefs. Meereen is a war to free slaves. I would consider the American Civil War as the closest analogy to Meereen. Dany is not obligated to bribe the Meereenese in order to turn them away from slavery. There is nothing even a god can offer that will make the Ghis give up slavery. The masters of the city have no right to hold people into slavery. The slaves are not property. Dany is not obligated to negotiate nor barter for the freedom of the slaves. Freedom is their right. She only has to tell the masters of the city to free their slaves or else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orm Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 9 hours ago, boltons are sick said: The reason why she did it in the first place was because she genuinely loved Jaime and was forced in an abusive marriage against her will No Robert was forced into an abusive marriage with a murderous Pyschopath against his will 9 hours ago, boltons are sick said: The reason why cheating on the king was considered treason in Meddieval ages was because back then the people were sexist and classist. Nobody should be Ok...... Agreed.But it wasn't just cheating, was it? 9 hours ago, boltons are sick said: She didn't choose Robert as her husband and he abused her and cheated on her as well. I agree that Cersei and Jaime's love is twisted because they are twins but if Cersei had slept with someone that she is not related to, it would have been considered treason again. The incest doesn't play any role in this. Choosing the biological father of your kids is considered a basic human right these days so as 21-century readers I don't think we are supposed to condemn Cersei for this. You know if she just slept around as Robert did....... I would say it was fair game......... But she tried to pass off her bastards as Robert's and gain all his property all the while killing his bastards.......Oh and also Robert raping Cersei is also iffy even by modern legal terms( Case can be made Jaime rapes her) while Cersie killed him...... And although consensual incest may have been legalised............ But I am pretty sure sibling incest babies are not legal or morally acceptable anywhere........ 9 hours ago, boltons are sick said: am simply trying to point out that there is more complexity in these books than "Starks good, Lannisters bad Of course there is.......... That's why it's so interesting to talk about........ But really Cersei brought this all on herself...... Trying to pin her shenanigans on Ned, Bob or even Jaime takes away from what you said on the first place......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orm Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 7 hours ago, BlackLightning said: It's not even about who you wanna be friends with? It's about who you wanna do business with? Well I paraphrased it that way to get a point across..... Although the word 'Hero' and 'Villain' having objective definations are very subjectively used........ To simplify it, I consider heroes those who I wanna be friends with........ And Villains those who I am very fearful of....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 9 hours ago, BloodyJollyRoger said: You have valid points except for Daenerys. Meereen is George’s criticism of the invasion of Iraq and Vietnam. Daenerys removed slavery. Many of those nobles left homeless, and are starving. She didn’t had a system in place. Nothing is meereen is changed. Daenerys is the new master of a city that is destabilized. Martin has repeatedly denied that Meereen is about Iraq or Vietnam. Nor is he writing an apologetic for slavery, nor is he trying to argue that ending slavery is the wrong thing to do. In real life, countries find that the sky does not fall in when slavery is abolished. Slavery is in fact, very inefficient from an economic point of view. What he is showing is that the consequences of change are messy. Again, in real life, the consequences of Sherman's March to the Sea and the Haitian revolution were messy. It doesn't mean that either Sherman or the Haitians were wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boltons are sick Posted July 28, 2020 Author Share Posted July 28, 2020 15 hours ago, Orm said: No Robert was forced into an abusive marriage with a murderous Pyschopath against his will Ok...... Agreed.But it wasn't just cheating, was it? You know if she just slept around as Robert did....... I would say it was fair game......... But she tried to pass off her bastards as Robert's and gain all his property all the while killing his bastards.......Oh and also Robert raping Cersei is also iffy even by modern legal terms( Case can be made Jaime rapes her) while Cersie killed him...... And although consensual incest may have been legalised............ But I am pretty sure sibling incest babies are not legal or morally acceptable anywhere........ Of course there is.......... That's why it's so interesting to talk about........ But really Cersei brought this all on herself...... Trying to pin her shenanigans on Ned, Bob or even Jaime takes away from what you said on the first place......... 1) Robert wasn`t forced to marry Cersei against his will. He decided to marry her to ensure her father`s support and he could have divorced at any time but he didn`t because he didn`t want to lose Tywin`s support and gold. Meanwhile Cersei didn`t have much choice in the matter (even though you could argue that at first she was happy but that doesn`t change anything) and she couldn`t divorce. 2) The fact that Cersei and Jaime are twins is irrelevant to our discussion. Even if Cersei decided to sleep with someone else, this would still be considered treason by Westerosi laws and she would still face the danger of losing her life and the lives of her kids and lover. I don`t know why people feel the need to constantly point out the Cersei has an incestious relationship when discussing her marriage with Robert even though it is completely irrelevant to the subject. And I don`t think that anyone deserves to be executed for sleeping with their siblings even though I personally don`t approve of such relationships and find them disgusting. 3) Yes, you are right. Cersei tried to pass her bastards as Robert`s. However, you are forgetting the fact that if she admitted that those kids weren`t from her husband, she would be immediately imprisoned (and possibly tortured to tell the name of her lover) and then she would be executed along with her kids and Jaime. Her prime motivation to keep her kids` true parentage secret was not to gain access to Robert`s property but to protect her life and the lives of her family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boltons are sick Posted July 28, 2020 Author Share Posted July 28, 2020 23 hours ago, BlackLightning said: Oh stop. Not only are you dead-wrong, you look crazy. Daenerys was forced into an abusive marriage against her will. Did Daenerys have sex with Viserys and pass off the child as Drogo's? Did Daenerys try to seduce Ser Jorah and turn him against Drogo? No because that'd be wrong, stupid and dangerous and Daenerys is actually a good person. Daenerys was a scared 13-year-old girl who probably suffered from Stockholm syndrome (the actress` words, not mine) so this comparison is not relevant. 23 hours ago, BlackLightning said: Nobody should be executed for cheating on their spouse? Uh, I don't agree, especially not in this case. And I think many people who have been cheated on and publicly humiliated may beg to differ: Nowadays if a husband kills his wife for cheating on him he would receive a long sentence from the court. The only exceptions are backwater countries from the Middle East and Africa but even they are gradually changing. Meanwhile cheating is just considered amoral but it is not illegal and it is not punishable by the laws. So even the law enforcers agree with me. 23 hours ago, BlackLightning said: If Cersei as the queen consort slept with anyone who wasn't the king, then yes, she'd still be guilty of treason. Is it sexist? Meh, it depends on your perspective? Is it classist? No not at all. The fact that she slept with one of the king's personal bodyguards makes it twice as worse--on so many levels. Yes, Cersei deserves to be executed for cheating on her husband, just like Ned Stark isn`t obliged to provide a fair trial for that deserter he executed, Theon Greyjoy deserves to be executed for the mistakes made by his father while he is into Stark custody, the slaves deserve to be treated like dirt and if they run they should be killed because they belong to their masters, Jon Snow and all the other bastards deserve to be treated like dirt because they are bastards, Tyrion Lannister deserves to be killed upon his birth or abused throughout his life because this is what people normally did to dwarves back then, Roose Bolton and Ramsay Bolton are entitled to rape as many women as they want because they are their peasants, etc. I don`t think we are supposed to accept the Westerosi customs. However, while most people agree that the examples I listed are unfair, for some reason they think that Cersei deserves to be executed for cheating even though her husband does EXACTLY THE SAME THING. I guess the reason is because most people hate Cersei with passion and they like Robert and Ned and this is why they completely ignore the messages within the books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orm Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 54 minutes ago, boltons are sick said: ) Robert wasn`t forced to marry Cersei against his will. He decided to marry her to ensure her father`s support and he could have divorced at any time but he didn`t because he didn`t want to lose Tywin`s support and go I seem to remember that Rob did not want to marry anyone after Lyanna's death........ That's why his marriage with Cersei took place almost a year after...... The fact is he was coerced into marrying Cersie by Jon and Tywin for political reasons....... This can be considered forcing someone to marry. Especially if you make the case that Cersei was forced to marry....... 58 minutes ago, boltons are sick said: Meanwhile Cersei didn`t have much choice in the matter (even though you could argue that at first she was happy but that doesn`t change anything) and she couldn`t divorce. There was always Jaime, gold and Essos......... Heck Jaime even suggested so....... If they ran I am sure Rob wouldn't have batted an eye and thank his lucky stars, And Renly would have thrown Marg at him....... No matter how much Tywin seethes, he isn't sending Gregor after his kids...... But the fact is she wanted to be Roberts wife and fuck him literally and figuratively in every way possible....... 1 hour ago, boltons are sick said: ) The fact that Cersei and Jaime are twins is irrelevant to our discussion. Even if Cersei decided to sleep with someone else, this would still be considered treason by Westerosi laws and she would still face the danger of losing her life and the lives of her kids and lover. I don`t know why people feel the need to constantly point out the Cersei has an incestious relationship when discussing her marriage with Robert even though it is completely irrelevant to the subject. And I don`t think that anyone deserves to be executed for sleeping with their siblings even though I personally don`t approve of such relationships and find them disgusting And I am saying it is fair game that she sleeps around....... With her twin brother or anyone else........... But the problem is she is not having the king's kids and pushing her bastards to take his property........ Is Robert pushing his bastards to take Cersie's property!? And also she is killing his kids out of spite and paranoia....... 1 hour ago, boltons are sick said: Her prime motivation to keep her kids` true parentage secret was not to gain access to Robert`s property but to protect her life and the lives of her family. Then why didn't she take Ned's offer????? Seems to me you are desperately trying to whitewash the brain full of cats that is Cersei...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orm Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 1 hour ago, boltons are sick said: don`t think we are supposed to accept the Westerosi customs. H Who is accepting them?..... I am sure I am not....... 1 hour ago, boltons are sick said: Cersei deserves to be executed for cheating even though her husband does EXACTLY THE SAME THING I am saying for the third time, I consider it fair game......... But she purposely had Jaime's kids after signing a contract which states that she must have Robert's kids or be executed....... And I am sure Rob knew she was cheating on him and deep down he also knew the kids weren't his....... But he was off committing slow suicide because how miserable his life got after his rebellion...... 1 hour ago, boltons are sick said: I guess the reason is because most people hate Cersei with passion and they like Robert and Ned and this is why they completely ignore the messages within the books. I think you should ask why most people like Ned and Rob, even though Rob has no POV chapter? It's because they have too many heroic and redeeming qualities....... Along with some flaws.... And why people hate Cersei? Because I can't even name one redeeming quality about her, maybe besides the love for her kids(still toxic and secluded as she aborts Roberts kids) and guess what? Tyrion agrees........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackLightning Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 3 hours ago, boltons are sick said: Daenerys was a scared 13-year-old girl who probably suffered from Stockholm syndrome (the actress` words, not mine) so this comparison is not relevant. It is relevant. Cersei was not that much older than Daenerys when she first married Robert. Yet, Cersei did everything she could to avoid having the king's children and having her bastard children rob him and the realm blind. 3 hours ago, boltons are sick said: Nowadays if a husbantence from the court. The only exceptions are backwater countries from the Middle East and Africa but even they are gradually changing. Meanwhile cheating is just considered amoral but it is not illegal and it is not punishable by the laws. So even the law enforcers agree with me. Yes, Cersei deserves to be executed for cheating on her husband, just like Ned Stark isn`t obliged to provide a fair trial for that deserter he executed, Theon Greyjoy deserves to be executed for the mistakes made by his father while he is into Stark custody, the slaves deserve to be treated like dirt and if they run they should be killed because they belong to their masters, Jon Snow and all the other bastards deserve to be treated like dirt because they are bastards, Tyrion Lannister deserves to be killed upon his birth or abused throughout his life because this is what people normally did to dwarves back then, Roose Bolton and Ramsay Bolton are entitled to rape as many women as they want because they are their peasants, etc. I don`t think we are supposed to accept the Westerosi customs. However, while most people agree that the examples I listed are unfair, for some reason they think that Cersei deserves to be executed for cheating even though her husband does EXACTLY THE SAME THING. I guess the reason is because most people hate Cersei with passion and they like Robert and Ned and this is why they completely ignore the messages within the books. Adultery is illegal and punishable by laws as a civil offense (or even a misdemeanor) in many states in the USA. It's part of the reason why people hire private investigators to catch their spouses in affairs. They take evidence to court before a judge in order to ensure that they get the best deal possible at the expense of their cheating spouse. What do you think alimony is? There was a method to the madness. Cersei Lannister deserves to be executed because her conscious decision to abort any children she had by the king without his consent and to steal the realm by putting Lannister bastards on the throne and pretending that they were trueborn Baratheons is high treason and sedition. Cersei frames it as a means of protecting herself but, in truth, it's a deceitful power grab. Cersei wouldn't have to go to such extreme lengths to protect herself and her children if she did right in the first place. It's like if a bank robber kills a police officer to protect himself and tries to use that as an defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackLightning Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 On another note, does anyone know how to block/ignore trolls? Oops I mean users. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orm Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 5 minutes ago, BlackLightning said: On another note, does anyone know how to block/ignore trolls? Oops I mean losers. Chill dude/dudet......... Bolton's are sick isn't using personal attacks....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackLightning Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 4 minutes ago, Orm said: Chill dude/dudet......... Bolton's are sick isn't using personal attacks....... I meant to say users instead of losers. And I wasn't even referring to Bolton's are sick. I'm referring to someone else... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orm Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 Just now, BlackLightning said: I meant to say users instead of losers. And I wasn't even referring to Bolton's are sick. I'm referring to someone else... Let me guess........ Is it Jolly Rogers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Sidious Posted August 2, 2020 Share Posted August 2, 2020 On 7/27/2020 at 8:58 PM, BloodyJollyRoger said: You have valid points except for Daenerys. Meereen is George’s criticism of the invasion of Iraq and Vietnam. Daenerys removed slavery. Many of those nobles left homeless, and are starving. She didn’t had a system in place. Nothing is meereen is changed. Daenerys is the new master of a city that is destabilized. The removal of slavery is an act of great heroism in itself. This is not the same as the removal of a dictator like Saddam Hussein. The Ghiscari nobles were slavers. Daenerys has no moral obligation to provide for those people. It is time they earn callouses and put in some hard work. Sure it will be tough because they have never had to. Maybe they haven't the skills. Too bad. They are no longer fit to survive in a place where they can no longer force others to do work for them. Those who cannot adapt to work will die. That is their own fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Targknight Posted August 2, 2020 Share Posted August 2, 2020 42 minutes ago, Prince Rhaego's Soul said: The removal of slavery is an act of great heroism in itself. This is not the same as the removal of a dictator like Saddam Hussein. The Ghiscari nobles were slavers. Daenerys has no moral obligation to provide for those people. It is time they earn callouses and put in some hard work. Sure it will be tough because they have never had to. Maybe they haven't the skills. Too bad. They are no longer fit to survive in a place where they can no longer force others to do work for them. Those who cannot adapt to work will die. That is their own fault. I’m just saying Daenerys didn’t replace it with a good system. She is a bad ruler. If Danny was brilliant. She would had a better system in place. Daenerys is a subversion Of The Mary Sue Trope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Sidious Posted August 3, 2020 Share Posted August 3, 2020 4 hours ago, BloodyJollyRoger said: I’m just saying Daenerys didn’t replace it with a good system. She is a bad ruler. If Danny was brilliant. She would had a better system in place. Daenerys is a subversion Of The Mary Sue Trope. Disagree. She does not have to replace slavery with another system. Her only responsibility is to force the masters to free the slaves. The rest is up to the slaves after they are free. If there is a mistake on her part it is being a little soft. Me, I would have taken everything from the masters to remove their ability to fight change. But that can be remedied very quickly. The Meereenese have taken lives from millions of people for over a thousand years. It is time to kick them in the ass and take away all of their power if they even so much as give an ounce of resistance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Targknight Posted August 3, 2020 Share Posted August 3, 2020 6 hours ago, Prince Rhaego's Soul said: Disagree. She does not have to replace slavery with another system. Her only responsibility is to force the masters to free the slaves. The rest is up to the slaves after they are free. If there is a mistake on her part it is being a little soft. Me, I would have taken everything from the masters to remove their ability to fight change. But that can be remedied very quickly. The Meereenese have taken lives from millions of people for over a thousand years. It is time to kick them in the ass and take away all of their power if they even so much as give an ounce of resistance. Who are you to decide? Daenerys caused more problems than anything. Meereen has no other economy except the fighting pits and slavery. I don’t want to play devil’s advocate here. What can the Meereenese do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rose of Red Lake Posted August 3, 2020 Share Posted August 3, 2020 On 7/28/2020 at 8:10 AM, BlackLightning said: Cersei frames it as a means of protecting herself but, in truth, it's a deceitful power grab. Cersei wouldn't have to go to such extreme lengths to protect herself and her children if she did right in the first place. There was an old poster on this forum, Queen Cersei I (now banned I guess) who would have interjected here and said that Cersei has a right to decide who the father of her children will be, has a right to decide what child she will abort from whom (because abortion is legal), and that most of the time she didnt abort, he was just too drunk to aim in the right direction. I may not be getting her arguments right but damn, I miss that crazy poster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S. D Posted August 3, 2020 Share Posted August 3, 2020 Actions aren't supposed to be judged by a domino effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackLightning Posted August 3, 2020 Share Posted August 3, 2020 16 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said: There was an old poster on this forum, Queen Cersei I (now banned I guess) who would have interjected here and said that Cersei has a right to decide who the father of her children will be, has a right to decide what child she will abort from whom (because abortion is legal), and that most of the time she didnt abort, he was just too drunk to aim in the right direction. I may not be getting her arguments right but damn, I miss that crazy poster. The funny thing about it is that this Queen Cersei I is not wrong. 16 hours ago, BloodyJollyRoger said: Who are you to decide? Daenerys caused more problems than anything. Meereen has no other economy except the fighting pits and slavery. I don’t want to play devil’s advocate here. What can the Meereenese do? Bake a cake and sell it. Cut down a tree and make a table so you can....sell it. Use the money made from selling a cake and a table to buy clothing. It's not rocket science. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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