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Lord of Raventree Hall

Best Written Characters

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On 7/31/2020 at 9:49 PM, Mordred said:

 

I am asking myself what is considered well-written characters.  What makes a character 3 dimensional?  A character must be fleshed out to be in consideration.  They cannot be included simply because they are interesting.  You are not asking for Most Interesting.  Those conditions would leave out interesting but hollow characters like Drogo, Roose, Oberyn, Bronn, Skahaz, and Hizdahr.  We know next to nothing about their past.  A solid character has a past and a future.  This person is someone who we get to know.  We know what they want.  Lastly, the character is someone who provokes deep feelings in the readers.  I think these would meet my criteria.

  1. Theon is a loser and we know why.  We know what he's yearning for and how it led him to Ramsay's kennels.  How much torture can a man take and still be a man. 
  2. Jorah the finest example of what a gray character is.  When he loves, he loves deeply and completely.
  3. Barristan is a man with a lot of regrets.  He gets his chance to set things right with Dany. 
  4. Daenerys is a wonderful character.  We know not only her backstory but her family's.  She is going through an amazing journey.  This is what fantasy is all about.  Daenerys is the antidote to the boredom from the too common boy heroes of lesser novels. 
  5. Jon is the angry boy with a chip on his shoulders.  Remember what I said about provoking strong feelings.  I don't like Jon.  That is saying it politely.  But the fact that he annoys the hell out of me means he meets the criteria.
  6. Walder is the way he is because his father almost lost the family fortune.  He is careful because his father's recklessness almost lost them the bridge.  Any fair reader can understand and sympathize with him for being mad at the Starks.  What he did may be terrible but we know why he did it.  I want to have more pages of Walder material in the last two volumes. 

You could get a lucky break but I doubt it.  A Walder Frey point of view would be awesome.

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Posted (edited)
On 7/31/2020 at 7:49 PM, Mordred said:

I am asking myself what is considered well-written characters.  What makes a character 3 dimensional?  A character must be fleshed out to be in consideration.  They cannot be included simply because they are interesting.  You are not asking for Most Interesting.  Those conditions would leave out interesting but hollow characters like Drogo, Roose, Oberyn, Bronn, Skahaz, and Hizdahr.  We know next to nothing about their past.  A solid character has a past and a future.  This person is someone who we get to know.  We know what they want.  Lastly, the character is someone who provokes deep feelings in the readers.  I think these would meet my criteria.

  1. Theon is a loser and we know why.  We know what he's yearning for and how it led him to Ramsay's kennels.  How much torture can a man take and still be a man. 
  2. Jorah the finest example of what a gray character is.  When he loves, he loves deeply and completely.
  3. Barristan is a man with a lot of regrets.  He gets his chance to set things right with Dany. 
  4. Daenerys is a wonderful character.  We know not only her backstory but her family's.  She is going through an amazing journey.  This is what fantasy is all about.  Daenerys is the antidote to the boredom from the too common boy heroes of lesser novels. 
  5. Jon is the angry boy with a chip on his shoulders.  Remember what I said about provoking strong feelings.  I don't like Jon.  That is saying it politely.  But the fact that he annoys the hell out of me means he meets the criteria.
  6. Walder is the way he is because his father almost lost the family fortune.  He is careful because his father's recklessness almost lost them the bridge.  Any fair reader can understand and sympathize with him for being mad at the Starks.  What he did may be terrible but we know why he did it.  I want to have more pages of Walder material in the last two volumes. 

1)Was Theon a loser? He clearly had deep insecurities, but he was highborn, good looking, a skilled archer and a capable soldier since he fought in Robb’s vanguard.

2) Walder Frey’s father nearly lost his fortune? Are you referring to the Mystery Knight?

If I had to pick two characters, it would be Catelyn and Theon. They’re not my favourite characters, but they’re very well written.

Edited by Lee-Sensei

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Catelyn Stark, Theon Greyjoy, Daenerys TargaryenJaime LannisterArya Stark and Tyrion Lannister

I still can't make heads or tails concerning Bran Stark's character but his chapters are all expertly written. Not only that but Bran's chapters are all getting more and more spooky.

As far as non-POVs go, Barbrey DustinStannis Baratheon

I think Arianne Martell, Aeron Greyjoy and Melisandre will join my list by the end of the series.

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Who leaps off the page so vividly and realistically that I don't feel like I'm reading a "character" but a real person, and the author's efforts/opinions completely disappear? 

I think that's Catelyn, Ned, Victarion, Sansa, and Cersei.

I can see GRRM's opinions at work behind the curtain in Dany, Tyrion, and Jon (ugh...those three).

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On 7/23/2020 at 4:58 AM, frenin said:

Well a lot are, Jaime and Daemon Blackfyre also end up in the same barrel one could also count Rhaegar and Dayne.

Being super charming, hell of a warrior and super handsome seems to indicate your life is going to suck at the end.

Well the thing with Bobby B, is that he got everything but still wasted away...

He seems to be a prime example of not being able to buy happiness.....

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Theon.

I wanted to throw my book into the fire every time I saw "where do whores go" and "have you seen a maid...", despite Tyrion and Brienne being some of my favourite characters. I never got sick of "Reek, Reek, it rhymes with..." though. That's gotta mean something.

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On 8/15/2020 at 2:09 PM, Putin said:

perfect 

Cersei is the best written evil character though. I’ve gotta way that.

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Posted (edited)
On 7/30/2020 at 4:16 PM, R2D said:

Brienne? I like her but she is completely two dimensional.

Lol, just because you don't understan her arc (which I am guessing you don't) does not make her two dimensional. I am a gender non- conforming man, and her experiences are extremely accurate to how it feels to not conform to the gender norms of that you were assigned too. As well, her careful methodical way of thinking is entirerly realistic. She is not two dimensional at all, and if you feel the need to come on here and insult others choices, I would suggest actually backing it up with evidence. Brienne is two dimensional from Jaime's perspective for about two seconds, before he realizes there is more to her than he thought. Her speech to Catelyn when she offers her her allegience is one of my favorite, and she recognizes something about Catelyn that no other character seems to recognize.  Brienne's feelings on Dick Crabb are much more complicated then how other characters would treat him. How she treats Pod. I mean period, a strong female character in fantasy that actually comes with the issues that would come with breaking gender roles? In many ways as well she reminds me of her possible ancestor, Ser Duncan fhe Tall. Her stubborn resolve, her ability to stand up for what is right. Other characters often take te path of least resistance, Brienne does not. That isn't two dimensional, those character traits are rare. I could literally go on and on step by step on her gender non-conforming storyline and why it is accurate and complex.  God, did you read her section, or were you just bored because you didn't relate to her?

Edited by Lord of Raventree Hall

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Theon, Jaime and Stannis epitomise GRRM's human heart in conflict with itself style so brilliantly. Theon's chapters had me welling up most often. 

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Lol, just because you don't understan her arc (which I am guessing you don't) does not make her two dimensional. I am a gender non- conforming man, and her experiences are extremely accurate to how it feels to not conform to the gender norms of that you were assigned too. As well, her careful methodical way of thinking is entirerly realistic. She is not two dimensional at all, and if you feel the need to come on here and insult others choices, I would suggest actually backing it up with evidence. Brienne is two dimensional from Jaime's perspective for about two seconds, before he realizes there is more to her than he thought. Her speech to Catelyn when she offers her her allegience is one of my favorite, and she recognizes something about Catelyn that no other character seems to recognize.  Brienne's feelings on Dick Crabb are much more complicated then how other characters would treat him. How she treats Pod. I mean period, a strong female character in fantasy that actually comes with the issues that would come with breaking gender roles? In many ways as well she reminds me of her possible ancestor, Ser Duncan fhe Tall. Her stubborn resolve, her ability to stand up for what is right. Other characters often take te path of least resistance, Brienne does not. That isn't two dimensional, those character traits are rare. I could literally go on and on step by step on her gender non-conforming storyline and why it is accurate and complex.  God, did you read her section, or were you just bored because you didn't relate to her?

Wow rein it in man. 

 

Edited by R2D

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I like the dynamics between Jonos Bracken and Tytos Blackwood.

Jonos is an impulsive and headstrong man, while Tytos is rather subtle and reserved. On top of everything, both are ancient enemies. I liked the transition between them, when Jaime visits Raventree Hall. GRRM took care of the prose, in these chapters, so that the reader seems to be really moving from one side of the lane to the other in a conflict that, by then, was little more than a sidenote to the main story. In this light, the dialogues of both men are well measured to achieve the atmosphere.

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, R2D said:

Wow rein it in man. 

 

...Sorry for...debating/discussing on a forum meant for debate and discussion. Ill keep in mind to make short sarcastic or disagreement quips from now on. 

Oh wait, you aren't the forum police and can't tell others how to act. Sorry, I forgot that. 

Edited by Lord of Raventree Hall

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On 7/22/2020 at 4:23 PM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I found a lot of archived content like this, but frankly, I just wanted to discuss my opinion (and hear others) opinion on who the best written characters in the series are (regardless of whether you like them). Of course it can be hard to be unbiased, but here is my best attempt. 

#1 : Theon Greyjoy. In all the archived content I found, Theon was rarely on the top which baffled me. In my opinion, he is not just the best written character in ASOIAF, but in all of fiction. The deep dive in what drives human beings at their core, what cocky people are hiding underneath, and the road to being oneself after torture are all just amazing. I cry every time that Theon says his name is Theon when discovered by Asha. 

#2 : Brienne of Tarth. So now I get into the bias section as I love Brienne. But as a gender non-conforming man, I relate to Brienne pretty much all the way through. I think she, at least from my perspective, perfectly mirrors the experiences I had going through life. Unaccepted by either gender and the struggles in how to be oneself. Fortunately, I've found some acceptance in adulthood that I'm afraid Brienne will never find. 

#3 : Tyrion Lannister. Trying to be unbiased, I have to admit Tyrion is an excellent written character. I find myself, the more times I read the book, I dislike Tyrion more (although I still find his chapters interesting). I just think he is so well written people miss how badly he treats other people. Anyways, he is one of the best "gray" characters I've ever read, teetering between the good and bad nearly constantly. 

#4 : Jaime Lannister. Like Theon, it is about the journey with this character. His arc is solidly commendable, and I like the concept that people can change (because they can). 
#5 : Catelyn Tully : Catelyn is my mom, which makes me wonder how GRRM could even pull off writing a character that seems so realistic to an actual strong mother type. I am heavily biased on this one. I love Catelyn, but I do think she is well written especially as I think GRRM probably had little to relate to when writing this character. 

Honerable Mention : Daenerys Targaryen. The reason I can't include her above is the weird focus on her breasts nearly all the time..takes me out of things sometimes when reading her parts lol. As my partner said, nobody is constantly thinking about their breasts that much. However, I actually think Daenerys character arc so far has been great, from young and innocent to secure and proud, to a slow decent toward ...arrogant and harsh (or perhaps crazy). 

I would have picked this same set. For psychological insight and the way that insight is built up. In Jaime's case he has contradictory parts in his character and so the complete picture can't really be seen clearly, which is an insight in itself, whereas Catelyn is strong and consistent.

I also like the way Rickon is sketched in. A wild child already and then his father's death and anger at his mother leaving, bonding with Osha. What will become of him?

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Catelyn and Theon

Catelyn's chapters are so consistently well written that they appear effortless. A great insight on a character that would probably be simplified or ignored in other fantasy works.

Theon's chapters..... just an amazing journey. I can't wait for the rest of it because imo it's still not over.

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Nimble Dick. 

He has so many nuances. For example he is of the old blood but he is materially disadvantaged. 

He is still proud of his family legacy and uses superstition as a guard rail to both protect travelers as well as dissociate society with cruel acts and help uplift the internalized consistency of the world's characters. 

He is afraid but also honest, and he wants to be helpful. He looks for short cuts that make him a petty criminal but he means well. None of his crimes are meant to harm others, and he has an eclectic view of honor that does not bog him down to dogmatic positions that strip the individual of critical thought. 

He is not judgmental, but he also stands up for people who are at wits end. He notices people like Brienne or Pod not out of greed or vanity but because he notices those at their weakest. 

He is a better man than anyone else in Planetos. All the wise men, wizards, and kings haven't the ounce of honesty and self-purpose as Nimble Dick.     

Edited by butterweedstrover

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On 7/22/2020 at 3:39 PM, Daena the Defiant said:

Catelyn Stark is by far the most well-rounded, human, flawed yet dynamic character. GRRM writes her as a dutiful intelligent woman, bound by the expectations of her society, wife/mother/daughter/sister yet he gives her incredible agency inside those bounds.  The fact that the world around her turned upside down and ultimately causes the sundering of her family is just so heartbreaking.  

Catelyn Stark is intelligent? I may be wrong but didn't GRRM state that the Tullys are Muppets? I dislike Catelyn because she thinks she is a player but all of her decisions blow up in her face. She should have stayed in Winterfell I think she would have managed the north slot better than Rodrik and Luwin.

Wyman Manderly and Barbrey Dustin are very well written. Roose as well they bring a lot more color to the Northern houses than what we saw in the earlier books which sort of made the north look like they were incapable of scheming like the other kingdoms.

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