Varysblackfyre321 Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 12 minutes ago, Heartofice said: ... ok but it was funny though right?! Oh is that the only possible thing that matters to you? So long as it's funny it doesn't matter if the ideas in the video trying to be pushed are wrong? Interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 @sologdin I'm reminded of the term "red facism" used by socialists and communists outside of the Soviet Union and China to refer to Stalinism and Maoism. The idea exists to this day -- August 23rd is offically the European Day of Remembrance for Victims of Stalinism and Nazism. I think what we're seeing is an increasing acceptance of authoritarianism from some on the Left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 2 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: Oh is that the only possible thing that matters to you? So long as it's funny it doesn't matter if the ideas in the video trying to be pushed are wrong? Interesting. I’m just poking fun at your lack of humour. Don’t worry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveSumm Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 1 minute ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: Oh is that the only possible thing that matters to you? So long as it's funny it doesn't matter if the ideas in the video trying to be pushed are wrong? Interesting. Well the fact that it’s comedy means it doesn’t have to be watertight, it’s not an academic thesis. But the fact that they easily come up with so many phrases that are equally agreeable makes it own point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 11 minutes ago, Heartofice said: I’m just poking fun at your lack of humour. Don’t worry. Its comedy bro! I do laugh at this defense when used in place an actual defense of someone pushing an idea. I have to ask; do you think think the the person who made the video does not seriously think there's an overlap between the racists and the woke? 10 minutes ago, DaveSumm said: Well the fact that it’s comedy means it doesn’t have to be watertight, it’s not an academic thesis. But the fact that they easily come up with so many phrases that are equally agreeable makes it own point. Comedy isn't some thing that makes any political statement made while doing it barred from criticism. If you're wrong something, you're still wrong if you tell it while laughing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 Just now, Varysblackfyre321 said: Its comedy bro! I do laugh at this defense when used in place an actual defense of someone pushing an idea. I have to ask; do you think think the the person who made the video does not seriously think there's an overlap between the racists and the woke? Comedy isn't some bygone that makes any political statement barred from criticism. If you're wrong something, you're still wrong if you tell it while laughing. This whole board is full of people making half baked political statements under the guise of humour, I wouldn’t get worked up about it. Yeah I agree with a lot of the video, and hence where the humour lays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveSumm Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 3 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: I have to ask; do you think think the the person who made the video does not seriously think there's an overlap between the racists and the woke? Of course. But you didn’t completely demolish their entire premise with your post did you? They still have a point don’t they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 14 minutes ago, Heartofice said: This whole board is full of people making half baked political statements under the guise of humour, I wouldn’t get worked up about it. Yeah I agree with a lot of the video, and hence where the humour lays. Yes you agree with it! The political statements are true to you. A lot of it is wrong. I've given my examples and given my case for why. You can try actually showing why I'm wrong, or admitting the guy who made the video was wrong on these points. Instead of just crying ”Its just comedy bro, stop trying to dissect and seriously critize his ideas. He's just joking!” while simultaneously mushing ”He’s right about the ideas he's pushing and worth serious consideration!” It can't be both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 4 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: Yes you agree with it! The political statements are true to you. A lot of it is wrong. I've given my examples and given my case for why. You can try actually showing why I'm wrong, or admitting the guy who made the video was wrong on these points. Instead of just crying ”Its just comedy bro, stop trying to dissect and seriously critize his ideas. He's just joking!” while simultaneously mushing ”He’s right about the ideas he's pushing and worth serious consideration!” It can't be both. As above, you have hardly demolished the video with your argument, in fact I’m confused as to why you even left that comment about it, so soft hitting was it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted July 31, 2020 Author Share Posted July 31, 2020 32 minutes ago, sologdin said: am a bit skeptical of the horseshoe theory of the spectrum. Heh, this reminds me of the most (really only) awkward moment in the political sociology course I taught this past spring. I believe I was going over the dynamics between fascism, capitalism, socialism - and my main point was emphasizing that virtually all current developed democracies are some type of mix between the latter two. One student, without knowing it, asked a question in which he basically described the horseshoe theory, so I took a couple minutes to explain it. Even went to the whiteboard which I rarely do, and I was explaining it mostly from Lipset's depiction as he's the one I'm most familiar with. As I was finishing up another student - who was very vocal and usually was wearing some type of Bernie Sanders paraphernalia whenever he showed up - yelled out "yeah I think the horseshoe theory is absolute fucking horseshit." I kinda smirked a bit and was like "..fair enough. Obviously I'm not asking any of you to agree with any of the many concepts we'll cover in this class." Then the room got really quiet and I could, ya know, feel the uncomfortableness, so I was like "...ok, let's move on to [whatever reading I assigned that day]." Anyway, I'm skeptical of the conception as well. Even if there are authoritarian similarities between the far-left and far-right, the inclination to equate the two with each other seems more based on sustaining the status quo center and delegitimatizing any calls for extreme reform to the established regime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 11 minutes ago, Heartofice said: As above, you have hardly demolished the video with your argument, in fact I’m confused as to why you even left that comment about it, so soft hitting was it. Ok bro, do you actually disagree with anything I said in the post? If so in what way? And why? Please just don't cry ”Its comedy!” Give an actual defense. Or just say he's wrong. 26 minutes ago, DaveSumm said: Of course. But you didn’t completely demolish their entire premise with your post did you? They still have a point don’t they? That the only difference between white-supremachists and being ”woke” not seeing ALL whites as pure good or evil? I don't think that's a compelling conclusion and many of the examples of similarities he's laid out to arrive at are misleading at best, flat-out lies at worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveSumm Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 4 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: I don't think that's a compelling conclusion and many of the examples of similarities he's laid out to arrive at are misleading at best, flat-out lies at worse. Again, it’s not an academic thesis, he hasn’t ‘laid out similarities to arrive at a conclusion’. It’s just a skit. And with that, I’m done. Both with frogs and comedy, dissecting it teaches us nothing and the subject dies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AverageGuy Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 15 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: That the only difference between white-supremachists and being ”woke” not seeing ALL whites as pure good or evil? I don't think that's the premise. I'd say it's that different sides can have similar stances through different means. The basis for the satire is that the stances actually are different, and the humor is found (if it's found) in the viewer recognizing the disjunct between the perspectives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight Of Winter Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 14 hours ago, DanteGabriel said: Okay, I would like to re-engage with this site. As a preface, I've said before that I don't doubt some innocent people do suffer and I do think Twitter mobs can exercise poor judgment and go after people who don't deserve it, or people making fairly innocuous mistakes lose their jobs. I get it. It's bad, I wish it wouldn't happen, and certainly I don't think people should get death threats or hounded out of their homes or made to feel unsafe for mistakes, even pretty major mistakes. (But also people have been getting death threats by right-leaning mobs for a long-ass time too, like what happened to the Dixie Chicks.) Anyway, I looked at that site. I am not familiar with all the cases. Some cases, like David Shor, I agree were unjust. But some of these cases are being manipulated by the site's author, based on what I already knew about the topic from my own perusal of the Internet. There are some big enough "edits" by this site to make me wonder at its overall accuracy. ... Okay, if you want my response: as far as I understand it, you're arguing two things here: 1) that site in question omits information relevant to the case, and thus its relevancy as a source should be question. Nothing to argue here. You made your point well with these 3 examples, where providing just a few more words (such as Wadi's daughter also being his catering manager) would indeed bring some context and explain some stuff. Personally I'll continue to use it - since it's the only database of such kind that I know - but will do additional research before posting examples from it. 2) that these 3 cases feature people who were clearly in the wrong, and who deserved some comeuppance for their action, possibly in the form of firing. On surface level, I have no objections to this. Bennet, for example, is sort of anti-Shor example - guy who everyone agrees was unproffesional, screwed up big way, and proved himself incompetent as an editor. So if you want me to say that "cancel culture" occasionally hits the mark and finds targets whose bigotry would otherwise escape public attention - I certainly agree. First thing I'd (presumably) disagree is the overall success rate of such examples. The number of times that "cancel culture" has fired, harassed, abused and labeled people whose actions were legitimate, or at least ambiguous, is much above any reasonable threshold. If any other system had such a failure rate - its users would be rightfully furious. And not only does CC often end up targeting undeserving people, it also shows no sign of self-reflection, no sign of rational debate, no sign of "due process" and no signs of learning from its mistakes. I fully believe that cases like Shor's will start piling up. Second thing where we (maybe) disagree is the instrument through which CC operates. In healthy society, twitter mobs should not have the power to decide fate of someone's job, or act as a supreme judge of someone's moral actions whose judgement will decide their societal fate. There's a myriad of reasons why I think so, one of the main ones being that angry mobs can (and already have) also be produced by right-wingers. You pointed out Dixie Chiks, who are far from the only example (e.g. Kaepernick). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 28 minutes ago, DaveSumm said: Again, it’s not an academic thesis, he hasn’t ‘laid out similarities to arrive at a conclusion’. It’s just a skit. And with that, I’m done. Both with frogs and comedy, dissecting it teaches us nothing and the subject dies. Again comedy isn't something that makes any idea or argument presented in it unable to be criticized. He's pushing ideas. Hell you cited him because you thought he presumably made a compelling case for Woke being racist. If it's just a skit and does not worth any consideration, why post it in this discussion board? If it's just a skit shouldn't one automatically brush off anything said in it as not worth consideration off the same justification of Its just a skit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 47 minutes ago, AverageGuy said: I don't think that's the premise. I'd say it's that different sides can have similar stances through different means. The basis for the satire is that the stances actually are different, and the humor is found (if it's found) in the viewer recognizing the disjunct between the perspectives. Not really. The stances are presented as the same. But the reasons for having are different in wanting to defend/protect none-whites vs helping secure white-supremacy. I think many of the stances he's laid out probably lie closer to the mainstream conservative apparatus. White-supremachists tend to deny the existence of white privilege for instance. They hate affirmative action typically because it’d rob qualified people out positions that should be there's. It just so happens those qualified people are white men. Also, it's not ”woke” just to not buy the black friend argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Week Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 4 hours ago, Heartofice said: Comparing two women using the phrase ‘peeking in windows’ to industrial espionage is one of the more moronic things I’ve heard today Huh. I did always suspect that you didn't proofread your posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AverageGuy Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: Not really. The stances are presented as the same. Just to be clear, you believe that video is intended to make people think that white supremacists and white woke people have identical views? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 10 minutes ago, AverageGuy said: Just to be clear, you believe that video is intended to make people think that white supremacists and white woke people have identical views? I kinda think the rest of my post makes my position clear. Their(white supremacists, and white woke people) stances-at least in this video’s view- on issues are the same. The reasons for supporting the stance are different. That white-woke people are racists for minorities and against whites while white-supremachists are racist against minorities, for whites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AverageGuy Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 18 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: I kinda think the rest of my post makes my position clear. Their(white supremacists, and white woke people) stances-at least in this video’s view- on issues are the same. The reasons for supporting the stance are different. That white-woke people are racists for minorities and against whites while white-supremachists are racist against minorities, for whites. Okay. Didn't want to misrepresent your stance. I just re-watched, and I still don't think the video's trying to make that point. Edit: Specifically, I don't think it's intended to stand up to a nuanced exploration of those stances. The white supremacist is portrayed as an idiot who doesn't get the nuance, and his interpretations cause pained facial expressions on the face of the woke person. The audience is meant to realize that they aren't really the same. I could be giving the video too much credit, though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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