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"Cancel Culture" 3

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I think peeking into people's windows when they didn't want to give you more information is pretty shitty, and I'm sorry your intellect suffered from having read that.

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when they didn't want to give you more information is pretty shitty,

Who says they didn't want to? I read their interview as indicating that the language barrier was the culprit, so they just watched people at work to try and figure it out. It's as legitimate a  reading as any other, suffice it to say.

That's the thing. You can watch people making tortillas on porches, at the carts, in kitchens with street-facing windows, etc. You can find scores of videos on Youtube of people filming Mexican street vendors at work and they don't give a damn that you're watching their techniques. This notion that tortilla-making techniques are protected like they're some sort of industrial secret (to explain that "industrial espionage") is absurd.

The Tacos episode of Ugly Delicious on Netflix has a good segment with Gustavo Arellano (who, among other things, wrote Taco USA about the history of Mexican food in the country) visiting the Mitla Cafe, one of the oldest Mexican restaurants in the US and the place that Glen Bell repeatedly visited as research for starting up his Taco Bell stand. What do the family think of a white dude turning Mexican food into a mass-marketed chain? They're proud of their connection to the history of Mexican food in the US, and it's never hurt them that Taco Bell exists.

In fact, I see Arellano wrote about Kooks in the OC weekly.

Edited by Ran

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The entire restaurant industry is made up of people taking food ideas from other cultures and places. Last week i had an Indian meal prepared by Eastern European’s, from a restaurant that also served Chinese and Thai food ( it was predictably terrible)

Comparing two women using the phrase ‘peeking in windows’ to industrial espionage is one of the more moronic things I’ve heard today

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peeking in windows is an ordinary crime, and i hope they paid their consultanta/educators. 

but the restaurant's personnel learning cross-cultural culinary art is standard for both the food industry and for capitalism.  difficult therefore to get riled up about that latter in itself; the cultural appropriation objection might furthermore be premised on an unsavory racialist essentialism.  and 'authenticity,' since the time of rightwing existentialism, is not worthy of our emulation.

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40 minutes ago, Ran said:

There's well over 150 Mexican restaurants in Portland after filtering out chains, per Tripadvisor, one place more or less doesn't matter.

As someone who grew up in Albuquerque, I have yet to encounter Mexican food in Portland. 

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17 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

The entire restaurant industry is made up of people taking food ideas from other cultures and places. Last week i had an Indian meal prepared by Eastern European’s, from a restaurant that also served Chinese and Thai food ( it was predictably terrible)

Comparing two women using the phrase ‘peeking in windows’ to industrial espionage is one of the more moronic things I’ve heard today

Indeed, this is your classic “woke goes full circle and ends up racist”. Let’s all just cook our own food yea? Mexicans can have their food and we’ll have ours. 
 

EDIT: Did this already get shared?

 

Edited by DaveSumm

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21 minutes ago, Ran said:

 

Who says they didn't want to? I read their interview as indicating that the language barrier was the culprit, so they just watched people at work to try and figure it out. It's as legitimate a  reading as any other, suffice it to say.

 

It seemed clear to me that people were uncomfortable revealing more. If language barrier really was the issue, watching them do it may suffice. But they had to peek into windows to see the process, indicating to me that this was not with the cooperation of the people whose recipes and techniques they were appropriating.

I said when I first introduced this example that there's a debate to be had. Clearly the line is different for other people. I can appreciate the perspective of chefs. Shit, I brag to people about making the best Korean beef by anyone who's not actually Korean. It was the window peeking that crossed the line for me.

Nor do I agree with how dismissive you're being of the concept of "industrial espionage." What, does Colonel Sanders get to be the only one whose culinary secrets are worth protecting?

I also don't want to bog this thread down into debates about stealing tortilla techniques. I would like to see @Heartofice and @Knight Of Winter respond to the examples I cited that were pretty clearly misleading. They have accused me of lacking substance in the past. I've brought some substance, have at it. Of course HoI never engages when I do post substantive things. He just waits for me to get frustrated, insult him, and then whine and accuse me of being obsessed with him. At least he's no longer inviting me into his DMs.

 

Edited by DanteGabriel

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grew up in Albuquerque, I have yet to encounter Mexican food in Portland. 

that's a decent test case.  my preference is for new mexican style, acquired while living in las cruces. i really don't care about the heideggerian authenticity of who makes it, just so long as the rule of the recipe and the what of the ingredients is reasonably correct.

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28 minutes ago, Inkdaub said:

As someone who grew up in Albuquerque, I have yet to encounter Mexican food in Portland. 

I suspect there are Mexicans who have yet to encounter Mexican food in Albuquerque, so seems fair enough. 

12 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

If spying on a chef and stealing a technique is illegal, then it’s illegal. It has precisely fuck all to do with cultural appropriation.

Indeed. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, DanteGabriel said:

There is a valid debate to be had, I think, about cultural appropriation in general. I love Rick Bayless's sopa azteca recipe so maybe that's hypocritical of me. But conning little old ladies into showing you their techniques and then spying on them so you can take this knowledge and profit selling their tortillas to white people in a twee little Portland market is a step too far for me.

Shit, they would only sell their food to white people?  That is fucked up.

Edited by Frey family reunion

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Every single cookery travel show I've every seen has the host going into local restaurants/houses etc and showing the local techniques.  This is a daft conversation. 

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1 hour ago, DaveSumm said:

Indeed, this is your classic “woke goes full circle and ends up racist”. Let’s all just cook our own food yea? Mexicans can have their food and we’ll have ours. 
 

EDIT: Did this already get shared?

 

I have to make some comments on the video;

Affirmative Action was the type thing touted by MLK.

Acknowledging white-privilege is something most white supremacists would not do. At all. They're the sad underdogs like white people in general.

You might as well literally cry the civil rights movement in general was racist because it contended none whites weren't being treated as equals to whites.

A white man can have black friends, and still be racist. The idea you must literally hate everyone whose not apart of your race is ridiculous.

Literally Hitler had Jews he personally liked as individuals; https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/history/2018/11/13/the-fuhrers-child-how-hitler-came-adore-girl-with-jewish-roots/%3foutputType=amp

I cannot believe this idea of personal connections to some members of particular race is still touted as some get of racism free card.

 

 

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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51 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

If spying on a chef and stealing a technique is illegal, then it’s illegal. It has precisely fuck all to do with cultural appropriation.

Who brought up legality? Even if appropriating cooking techniques is common, I still think what they did was shitty. If they had just gone there, talked to cooks, figured out some stuff without peeking through windows of unwilling people, I'd have no issue with it.

Did they compensate the people whose techniques they took? Send some profits to charities to benefit the community they visited? If so, cool. If not, fuck them. It may not be illegal but it's still some entitled shit.

Edited by DanteGabriel

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11 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

Who brought up legality? Even if appropriating cooking techniques is common, I still think what they did was shitty. If they had just gone there, talked to cooks, figured out some stuff without peeking through windows of unwilling people, I'd have no issue with it.

Did they compensate the people whose techniques they took? Send some profits to charities to benefit the community they visited? If so, cool. If not, fuck them. It may not be illegal but it's still some entitled shit.

Well illegal, or immoral, or whatever. My point is that it has nothing to do with the culture of either participant, either it’s a shitty thing to do regardless of ethnicity, or it isn’t. Would this situation bother you less if they’d travelled to the east coast, and picked up some Philly cooking techniques from other white people?

EDIT: the fact that they talk so casually and openly about it makes me think of tourists just wandering around and looking at chefs who are openly cooking near windows, not some ninjas installing spy cameras on a concealed operation.

Edited by DaveSumm

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18 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

Who brought up legality?

You did, citing Colonel Sanders.

Quote

Even if appropriating cooking techniques is common, I still think what they did was shitty.

 

Quote

If they had just gone there,

Yes.

Quote

talked to cooks

They did.

Quote

figured out some stuff without peeking through windows of unwilling people,

No one says anyone was unwilling. Why are people assuming they were peeping in houses? Here's a woman making tortillas in a restaurant in Puerto Nuevo:

( Bonus cultural appropriation as they play my people's music!!!)

I suspect windows of restaurants where they make tortillas as a display of what they're doing and an enticement to guest is by far likelier than their wandering into random neighborhoods and trying to find abuelitas making tortillas for their families.

Quote

Did they compensate the people whose techniques they took?

Did the people lose their ability to make tortillas? Shocking.

 

Edited by Ran

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33 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I have to make some comments on the video;

Affirmative Action was the type thing touted by MLK.

Acknowledging white-privilege is something most white supremacists would not do. At all. They're the sad underdogs like white people in general.

You might as well literally cry the civil rights movement in general was racist because it contended none whites weren't being treated as equals to whites.

A white man can have black friends, and still be racist. The idea you must literally hate everyone whose not apart of your race is ridiculous.

Literally Hitler had Jews he personally liked as individuals; https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/history/2018/11/13/the-fuhrers-child-how-hitler-came-adore-girl-with-jewish-roots/%3foutputType=amp

I cannot believe this idea of personal connections to some members of particular race is still touted as some get of racism free card.

 

 

... ok but it was funny though right?!

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level of suffocating leftism that bends around so far it heads right

am a bit skeptical of the horseshoe theory of the spectrum. specifically, i do not know if left principles, if taken progressively far enough along a continuum quantitatively, qualitatively transform dialectically into rightwing principles. if there's an appearance of that sort of transformation, my hypothesis is that the appearance is not correct because either the principles were always already rightwing or that the principle itself has changed qualitatively not because of internal quantitative development but because of an extraneous, pathological impingement.  

Edited by sologdin

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1 minute ago, sologdin said:

level of suffocating leftism that bends around so far it heads right

am a bit skeptical of the horseshoe theory of the spectrum. specifically, i do not know if left principles, if taken progressively far enough along a continuum quantitatively, qualitatively transform dialectically into rightwing principles. if there's an appearance of that sort of transformation, my hypothesis is that the appearance is not correct because either the principles were always already rightwing or that the principle itself has changed qualitatively not because of internal quantitative development but because of an extraneous, pathological impingement.  

As usual I understand nothing of what you have written.
But I will take a stab and say that I believe left and right isn’t so much a line as a circle and there is a point where the crazy ideas of the right and the left are not that different, and more importantly it’s where most of the craziest members of society tend to dwell.

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