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Daemon Targaryen Was Destroying The Greens

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I never understood why alienate Daemon? He was destroying the Greens?

Here is the list:

1). Responsible for the entire Blood and Cheese fiasco.

2). Suggested sending Dalton Greyjoy to rape and pillage House Lannister. Just to slow down gold production for the Greens. Essentially he damaged the Greens economy.

3). Attacked the Stepstones to mess with trade. House Hightower was against this. No doubt trade in Old Town was impacted.

4). Responsible for the execution of Otto Hightower.

 

 

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2 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

I don't think I understand which point you are trying to make. You are aware that Daemon was on the black side, aren't you? Fighting the greens or trying to damage their economy would be his goal.

Daemon suggested using send Dalton Greyjoy to attack House Lannister. In order to slow gold production for the greens. 

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On 7/23/2020 at 3:33 PM, The hairy bear said:

I don't think I understand which point you are trying to make. You are aware that Daemon was on the black side, aren't you? Fighting the greens or trying to damage their economy would be his goal.

I believe the OP is confused about why Rhaenyra would alienate Daemon when she plotted to have his lover killed and thus alienate him from her side. And the simple fact is there is no good reason. Rhaenyra was acting out of paranoia. Her entire life she’d been raised in the favour of the court, and the idea of betrayal was foreign to her for the most part. Three dead/missing kids and several major betrayals later, she’s turned paranoid and goes after people who did nothing against her but MIGHT betray her too. 

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Posted (edited)
On 7/23/2020 at 3:21 PM, sexyprinceviserys said:

I never understood why alienate Daemon? He was destroying the Greens?

Here is the list:

1). Responsible for the entire Blood and Cheese fiasco.

2). Suggested sending Dalton Greyjoy to rape and pillage House Lannister. Just to slow down gold production for the Greens. Essentially he damaged the Greens economy.

3). Attacked the Stepstones to mess with trade. House Hightower was against this. No doubt trade in Old Town was impacted.

4). Responsible for the execution of Otto Hightower.

 

 

Personally, I think you make Daemon's accomplishments sound way better on paper, because last I checked, almost everything you pointed out ended up backfiring on the Blacks.

1) Blood and Cheese could have done way more damage to the Greens' cause by just wiping out Alicent, Otto, Helaena, and all three of her kids instead of just the oldest boy. Rob Aegon of his entire family, then all you have to deal with are him and his brothers. Plus Aemond was so ambitious already that you'd throw a monkey wrench into the Greens' plans by having Aemond realise he's the heir if his brother dies childless. Plus it means executing Otto later on isn't necessary.

2) Dalton Greyjoy was chaotic evil incarnate. He didn't care about the Black cause, and kept on raiding even after the war was over. True, it was a short-term diversion, but it neither won the war nor did it prove helpful in the long run.

3) Sure, attacking the Stepstones messed with trade, but that also created more enemies for the blacks than it ever hindered the greens. Daemon had so much baggage that Otto could draw on support from multiple Essossi societies to fight the blacks. 

 

Truth is, Daemon was useful to the blacks, but he was always a double-edged sword. I'd argue that Daemon drained support for Rhaenyra, based on how the small council rationalized turning against Rhaenyra by revealing how much they hated Daemon. And Daemon's biggest achievement (killing Aemond) came at the cost of his own life, so even his big victory was a loss to the blacks.

Edited by Floki of the Ironborn

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1 hour ago, James Steller said:

I believe the OP is confused about why Rhaenyra would alienate Daemon when she plotted to have his lover killed and thus alienate him from her side. And the simple fact is there is no good reason. Rhaenyra was acting out of paranoia. Her entire life she’d been raised in the favour of the court, and the idea of betrayal was foreign to her for the most part. Three dead/missing kids and several major betrayals later, she’s turned paranoid and goes after people who did nothing against her but MIGHT betray her too. 

Yeah rhaenyra was just crazy at that point. Not really much nuance to it

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5 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Personally, I think you make Daemon's accomplishments sound way better on paper, because last I checked, almost everything you pointed out ended up backfiring on the Blacks.

1) Blood and Cheese could have done way more damage to the Greens' cause by just wiping out Alicent, Otto, Helaena, and all three of her kids instead of just the oldest boy. Rob Aegon of his entire family, then all you have to deal with are him and his brothers. Plus Aemond was so ambitious already that you'd throw a monkey wrench into the Greens' plans by having Aemond realise he's the heir if his brother dies childless. Plus it means executing Otto later on isn't necessary.

2) Dalton Greyjoy was chaotic evil incarnate. He didn't care about the Black cause, and kept on raiding even after the war was over. True, it was a short-term diversion, but it neither won the war nor did it prove helpful in the long run.

3) Sure, attacking the Stepstones messed with trade, but that also created more enemies for the blacks than it ever hindered the greens. Daemon had so much baggage that Otto could draw on support from multiple Essossi societies to fight the blacks. 

 

Truth is, Daemon was useful to the blacks, but he was always a double-edged sword. I'd argue that Daemon drained support for Rhaenyra, based on how the small council rationalized turning against Rhaenyra by revealing how much they hated Daemon. And Daemon's biggest achievement (killing Aemond) came at the cost of his own life, so even his big victory was a loss to the blacks.

Harsh, but to be honest, I can't fault that kind of logic. It's fitting with Daemon's character and reputation that he destroys not only the greens, but also the blacks with his efforts. He's chaotic evil, bringing everyone down regardless of his own loyalties. 

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6 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Personally, I think you make Daemon's accomplishments sound way better on paper, because last I checked, almost everything you pointed out ended up backfiring on the Blacks.

1) Blood and Cheese could have done way more damage to the Greens' cause by just wiping out Alicent, Otto, Helaena, and all three of her kids instead of just the oldest boy. Rob Aegon of his entire family, then all you have to deal with are him and his brothers. Plus Aemond was so ambitious already that you'd throw a monkey wrench into the Greens' plans by having Aemond realise he's the heir if his brother dies childless. Plus it means executing Otto later on isn't necessary.

2) Dalton Greyjoy was chaotic evil incarnate. He didn't care about the Black cause, and kept on raiding even after the war was over. True, it was a short-term diversion, but it neither won the war nor did it prove helpful in the long run.

3) Sure, attacking the Stepstones messed with trade, but that also created more enemies for the blacks than it ever hindered the greens. Daemon had so much baggage that Otto could draw on support from multiple Essossi societies to fight the blacks. 

 

Truth is, Daemon was useful to the blacks, but he was always a double-edged sword. I'd argue that Daemon drained support for Rhaenyra, based on how the small council rationalized turning against Rhaenyra by revealing how much they hated Daemon. And Daemon's biggest achievement (killing Aemond) came at the cost of his own life, so even his big victory was a loss to the blacks.

 Aemond was the biggest problem for the Greens.I don’t think it backfired. If Daemon did nothing like you claim. He won’t be recognized as a controversial figure.

1). Blood and Cheese drove Helena insane, which Daemon knew that will happen. Mentally scarring the child as well. 

2).Dalton Greyjoy devastated the Westerlands.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Dalton_Greyjoy

3). Why would Essos help Otto? If Oldtown wasn’t devasted by trade, because of Daemon. The downplay of Daemon is hilarious.

4). Daemon is responsible for killing Otto. A dangerous schemer for the Hightowers. The Greens had no strategists except for Otto.   

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Yeah he’s not exactly the best strategist, neither is Rhaenyra. The Blacks in F&B reminded me of that part in the infomercial when people trip, break something, or make a mess on themselves.

Daemon and Otto were actually strategists. The rest of the families weren’t.

Edited by sexyprinceviserys
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26 minutes ago, sexyprinceviserys said:

 Aemond was the biggest problem for the Greens.I don’t think it backfired. If Daemon did nothing like you claim. He won’t be recognized as a controversial figure.

1). Blood and Cheese drove Helena insane, which Daemon knew that will happen. Mentally scarring the child as well. 

2).Dalton Greyjoy devastated the Westerlands.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Dalton_Greyjoy

3). Why would Essos help Otto? If Oldtown wasn’t devasted by trade, because of Daemon. The downplay of Daemon is hilarious.

4). Daemon is responsible for killing Otto. A dangerous schemer for the Hightowers. The Greens had no strategists except for Otto.   

1) Again, just wiping out Aegon's whole family, including his mother and grandfather, Otto, would have mentally crippled Aegon completely. So instead of Helaena going insane, Aegon goes insane. Aemond then makes a power move, Daeron flounders, and the greens are disoriented for the rest of the war.

2) Sure, but he doesn't affect the war at all. The Westerlands remain loyal to the greens, the war continues regardless, and after it's over, when the realm has been consolidated, the Iron Islanders disrupt the peace. Every bit of damage in the Westerlands becomes a problem for the realm's peace following the war. Unwin Peake later uses the threat of the Red Kraken to try and get Alyn Velaryon killed in battle. A second huge war was only averted by the heroic actions of Tess, which nobody could have predicted.

3) Essos DID help Otto. Look at the attack where Viserys was captured, Aegon became dragon-less, and Jacaerys was killed. That attack had profound long-term effects on Westerosi history. Thanks to Daemon alienating the Essosi and causing them to happily join the greens' cause.

4) Rhaenyra would have had Otto executed without Daemon's help. It's not like Daemon's presence during the Sack of King's Landing was the only reason Otto died. 

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18 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

1) Again, just wiping out Aegon's whole family, including his mother and grandfather, Otto, would have mentally crippled Aegon completely. So instead of Helaena going insane, Aegon goes insane. Aemond then makes a power move, Daeron flounders, and the greens are disoriented for the rest of the war.

2) Sure, but he doesn't affect the war at all. The Westerlands remain loyal to the greens, the war continues regardless, and after it's over, when the realm has been consolidated, the Iron Islanders disrupt the peace. Every bit of damage in the Westerlands becomes a problem for the realm's peace following the war. Unwin Peake later uses the threat of the Red Kraken to try and get Alyn Velaryon killed in battle. A second huge war was only averted by the heroic actions of Tess, which nobody could have predicted.

3) Essos DID help Otto. Look at the attack where Viserys was captured, Aegon became dragon-less, and Jacaerys was killed. That attack had profound long-term effects on Westerosi history. Thanks to Daemon alienating the Essosi and causing them to happily join the greens' cause.

4) Rhaenyra would have had Otto executed without Daemon's help. It's not like Daemon's presence during the Sack of King's Landing was the only reason Otto died. 

1. Again, Daemon gave a warning, so you saying Aegon II wasn’t psychologically effected the death of his son, his wife driven insane, and his other child psychologically traumatized?

2). Dalton Greyjoy’s raping and pillaging devastated Jason Lannister. It effected him psychologically on the battlefield. Dalton Greyjoy ruled the Sunset Sea. Lannisport was devastated.

Go read the link about Dalton Greyjoy. You are downplaying Daemon.

3). Daemon’s ally was Volantis. Only the three daughters were alienated. The Daughters went to War. Daemon could have arranged assassination, which caused their alliance to break apart. 

4).Rhaenyra made mistakes without Daemon advising her. Otto would be imprisoned not executed.  

Read On.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Triarchy

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1 hour ago, sexyprinceviserys said:

1. Again, Daemon gave a warning, so you saying Aegon II wasn’t psychologically effected the death of his son, his wife driven insane, and his other child psychologically traumatized?

2). Dalton Greyjoy’s raping and pillaging devastated Jason Lannister. It effected him psychologically on the battlefield. Dalton Greyjoy ruled the Sunset Sea. Lannisport was devastated.

Go read the link about Dalton Greyjoy. You are downplaying Daemon.

3). Daemon’s ally was Volantis. Only the three daughters were alienated. The Daughters went to War. Daemon could have arranged assassination, which caused their alliance to break apart. 

4).Rhaenyra made mistakes without Daemon advising her. Otto would be imprisoned not executed.  

Read On.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Triarchy

1) And again, they are about to have a dance of dragons. A war which will rock Westeros, and everyone knows how devastating it'll be. Nobody is deluded about that. If you're a rogue like Daemon, you know that you don't win a war with mere warnings. Especially if you have a chance to wipe out the rival king's progeny, his queen, his mother, his strategist grandfather, all of which would emotionally cripple Aegon. Imagine the lives saved if the greens collapsed that early! Daemon could have arranged it, but for some ungodly stupid reason he decides that now he's going to be all "a son for a son." And yes, what I'm suggesting is deeply dishonourable, but Daemon is not Robb Stark. He's not above this kind of deceit, this is his bread and butter, but GRRM decided that the greens needed a fighting chance so the farce with Helaena choosing one of her kids to die happens instead. And if you think about it, it's even more maddening. Daemon would have had to instruct Blood and Cheese to kill the son whom Helaena did not choose to die, when they clearly could have just killed them all. Wasted opportunity to end a devastating war before it even began in earnest. Wipe out Aegon's family and invade King's Landing. War over once the three brothers are dead.

I'll cede to your points about Dalton and Rhaenyra making mistakes, but Daemon gets overblown as the reason that the blacks stood a chance against the greens. He did prove effective, but as I've been saying, Daemon is such a wild card that he attracted as many enemies as he drew allies. 

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1 minute ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

1) And again, they are about to have a dance of dragons. A war which will rock Westeros, and everyone knows how devastating it'll be. Nobody is deluded about that. If you're a rogue like Daemon, you know that you don't win a war with mere warnings. Especially if you have a chance to wipe out the rival king's progeny, his queen, his mother, his strategist grandfather, all of which would emotionally cripple Aegon. Imagine the lives saved if the greens collapsed that early! Daemon could have arranged it, but for some ungodly stupid reason he decides that now he's going to be all "a son for a son." And yes, what I'm suggesting is deeply dishonourable, but Daemon is not Robb Stark. He's not above this kind of deceit, this is his bread and butter, but GRRM decided that the greens needed a fighting chance so the farce with Helaena choosing one of her kids to die happens instead. And if you think about it, it's even more maddening. Daemon would have had to instruct Blood and Cheese to kill the son whom Helaena did not choose to die, when they clearly could have just killed them all. Wasted opportunity to end a devastating war before it even began in earnest. Wipe out Aegon's family and invade King's Landing. War over once the three brothers are dead.

I'll cede to your points about Dalton and Rhaenyra making mistakes, but Daemon gets overblown as the reason that the blacks stood a chance against the greens. He did prove effective, but as I've been saying, Daemon is such a wild card that he attracted as many enemies as he drew allies. 

You do have good points. I’m going to give you follow. Maybe their are details that weren’t added. History is written by the victors. Just like Tywin painted negative pictures about the Starks. I hope one day will get the actual history the Dance Of The Dragons.

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That rogue was one of the best assets for the Black.  Queen Rhaenyra made a mistake.  She should have let his indiscretion go.  He was sleeping with the brown rider but still.  That is the thing which can wait until after the war is over.  But Daemon, to his credit, did not switch sides.  To switch sides would have been evil.  He did not do that.  He fought the greens to the bitter end. 

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8 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

But Daemon, to his credit, did not switch sides.  To switch sides would have been evil.  He did not do that.  He fought the greens to the bitter end. 

That wasn't an option for him. He had burned all his bridges by that point. Why do you think he went to face Aemond at Harrenhal after he helped Nettles get away? Why do you think he agreed with Aemond when Aemond said that Daemon had lived too long? Daemon wasn't expecting nor planning to survive his showdown with Aemond. That's what ultimately gives him the edge over Aemond in the fight. He knew that Aemond's dragon was bigger and stronger, and he knew that even if he did kill Aemond and walk away unscathed, he'd have to deal with a furious Rhaenyra for his betrayal of her. Daemon is a shit-stirrer who set fires wherever he went and did whatever he wanted until he'd pissed off every powerful faction in Westeros, and then he chose to die in a heroic and reckless action on his own terms, forever remembered as a result. 

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8 hours ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

I liked daemons character but his suggestion of giving highgarden and casterly rock to ulf and hugh was absolutely absurd

Too keep them loyal. Those two were power hungry. Rhaenyra refuses, and look what had happened?

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1 hour ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

That wasn't an option for him. He had burned all his bridges by that point. Why do you think he went to face Aemond at Harrenhal after he helped Nettles get away? Why do you think he agreed with Aemond when Aemond said that Daemon had lived too long? Daemon wasn't expecting nor planning to survive his showdown with Aemond. That's what ultimately gives him the edge over Aemond in the fight. He knew that Aemond's dragon was bigger and stronger, and he knew that even if he did kill Aemond and walk away unscathed, he'd have to deal with a furious Rhaenyra for his betrayal of her. Daemon is a shit-stirrer who set fires wherever he went and did whatever he wanted until he'd pissed off every powerful faction in Westeros, and then he chose to die in a heroic and reckless action on his own terms, forever remembered as a result. 

Daemon Targaryen was both mad, and great. Basically he was crazy like a fox. Daemon was like a less evil version of Euron. 

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Posted (edited)
On 7/25/2020 at 12:45 AM, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Personally, I think you make Daemon's accomplishments sound way better on paper, because last I checked, almost everything you pointed out ended up backfiring on the Blacks.

I think that's the running theme of Daemon's life in general. He's an extremely capable and fascinating person but he's actually somewhat of a failure. In all of his endeavors Daemon speaks to the imagination but ultimately fails. He couldn't become king in his own right, he couldn't hold on to his private ''kingdom'' of the Steppestones, and he ultimately lost both the favor of his queen and his life during the war. 

On paper Daemon has a very large list of accomplishment but in practice these always led to failure. 

Edited by Daemon of the Blacks

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