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Wintersshewolf

Arya Is Portraying Shae in The Bloody Hand

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Looking at the entry for The Bloody Hand on the Wiki, Sansa is linked to as the character Arya is portraying, but that doesn't seem to make sense. As Shae is the character Arya is most likely playing since in her testimony against Tyrion, she lied about being an innocent maiden who was raped by him and was eventually murdered by him, is there a way to correct this? Here's a full analysis as well:  https://aryastarksource.tumblr.com/post/129534255544/sansa-was-the-character-arya-played-in-the-bloody

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No need to correct the Wike as it likely is correct. It is no clear whether the Mercy chapter has Arya play Sansa or Shae. Both are possible. But Sansa is more likely:

Yes, there are some clues that point to Shae. However they have been oversold. In reality there isn't much there:

Arya's character is supposed to get murdered in the play.

Murder may seem to hint at Shae. However only at first glance: Sansa disappeared. So for the intents and purposes of the playwright in Braavos she may well have been murdered.

Arya thinks of only 2 lines of text that Mercy has to say:

The m'lord has been sold as a hint. That's thin though: People have completely overlooked that the play has been written and acted out in Braavosi!

So there really is no Westerosi m'lord in the play. That the word m'lord falls at all is just for the benefit of us readers. It is so we can understand Arya's words since we do not speak Braavosi. But really the characters in-world talk Braavosi there and the play is in Braavosi too. We don't know if there even is a difference between m'lord and mylord in Braavosi. And if there is if it even has the same meaning as in Westeros. Braavos is a completely different society there compared to Westeros.

Ontop of that the chapter makes it very obvious that Arya is very deeply into her disguise as Mercy. She is even thinking like Mery. Which means that when she - in her Mercy disguise! -  plays her role in the play she acts like Mercy would play the role. Not like Arya from house Stark would. So if the m'lord has a meaning at all it just means Arya is deep in her Mercy disguise. Which is good for high-class assassin in training.

And then there is the "I'm still a maiden" - thing. If anyone in the books wasn't a maiden it was Shae. However a Braavois playwright would (correctly) assume that Sansa was a maiden when she was given to Tyrion. She was a sheltered noble and very young after all.

Whereas Shae was a side character who was found in several people's beds prior. So if the Shae-part of the story got known overseas at all (dubious since she is not one of the main actors in the drama) but anyway - if she got known - then she got known as the courtesan she was. The maiden part would make no sense.

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Lady Stork ripped the hem of her dress, and Arya sewed up the dress of the queen. Sounds like the same person. Lady Stork is actress playing the queen.

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I´ve read/listened to the chapter half a dozen times and it never occurred to me she could be playing anyone but Shae.

And after re-listening with this question in mind, I´m still 100% (not 99,999 but 100 %) sure it´s Shae.

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On 8/3/2020 at 10:23 AM, Amris said:

No need to correct the Wike as it likely is correct. It is no clear whether the Mercy chapter has Arya play Sansa or Shae. Both are possible. But Sansa is more likely:

Yes, there are some clues that point to Shae. However they have been oversold. In reality there isn't much there:

Arya's character is supposed to get murdered in the play.

Murder may seem to hint at Shae. However only at first glance: Sansa disappeared. So for the intents and purposes of the playwright in Braavos she may well have been murdered.

Arya thinks of only 2 lines of text that Mercy has to say:

The m'lord has been sold as a hint. That's thin though: People have completely overlooked that the play has been written and acted out in Braavosi!

So there really is no Westerosi m'lord in the play. That the word m'lord falls at all is just for the benefit of us readers. It is so we can understand Arya's words since we do not speak Braavosi. But really the characters in-world talk Braavosi there and the play is in Braavosi too. We don't know if there even is a difference between m'lord and mylord in Braavosi. And if there is if it even has the same meaning as in Westeros. Braavos is a completely different society there compared to Westeros.

Ontop of that the chapter makes it very obvious that Arya is very deeply into her disguise as Mercy. She is even thinking like Mery. Which means that when she - in her Mercy disguise! -  plays her role in the play she acts like Mercy would play the role. Not like Arya from house Stark would. So if the m'lord has a meaning at all it just means Arya is deep in her Mercy disguise. Which is good for high-class assassin in training.

And then there is the "I'm still a maiden" - thing. If anyone in the books wasn't a maiden it was Shae. However a Braavois playwright would (correctly) assume that Sansa was a maiden when she was given to Tyrion. She was a sheltered noble and very young after all.

Whereas Shae was a side character who was found in several people's beds prior. So if the Shae-part of the story got known overseas at all (dubious since she is not one of the main actors in the drama) but anyway - if she got known - then she got known as the courtesan she was. The maiden part would make no sense.

There is a need to correct the wiki because it is impossible for the character Arya is playing to be Sansa since the character she is playing is clearly lowborn due to the word choice of m'lord rather than the highborn pronunciation of my lord. Sansa also wouldn't be depicted as a victim since she is considered a co-conspirator by the rest of the world due to her escape afterward. As for Shae not being a maiden, we readers knows this, but the wider world of Westeros does not. Her public testimony is that she was a maiden before Tyrion raped her. I linked to an essay addressing this in my main post, but I can add it here:

 
Quote

 

ANONYMOUS SAID:
sansa was the character arya played in the bloody hand, not shae.

Hi there :) I assume this message is in reference the Arya(Mercy)/Shae gifset I made. While you could be right that Arya might not have been portraying Shae specifically, I don’t believe there’s any textual evidence to support the interpretation that she was playing her sister or any other highborn girl.

I don’t normally post my own meta on this blog, but in responding to this and a couple other similar messages I received, that’s what this became. Due to the length of the post, I’ll put most of it under the cut. But the summary is:

  • the character Arya portrayed was lowborn so it could not have been Sansa or a girl with a noble upbringing
  • that character was either Shae or an original character Phario created for the play inspired by her testimony

“Please, m’lord, I am still a maiden,”

This is one of the few lines Arya has in the play and it easily establishes her character’s place in the Westerosi class system. The fact that she says “m’lord” instead of “my lord” shows that the character is a commoner. In fact, while addressing class issues in this series, George R. R. Martin actively uses the difference between those two pronunciations. For instance, look at this exchange between Jon Snow (who is a highborn bastard with a noble upbringing) and Janos Slynt (the son of a butcher with a commoner’s education): 

“I broke my vows with a woman. I admit that. Yes.” 

 “Yes, m’lord!” When Slynt scowled, his jowls quivered. He was as broad as the Old Bear had been, and no doubt would be as bald if he lived to Mormont’s age. Half his hair was gone already, though he could not have been more than forty. 

 “Yes, my lord,” Jon said.

– ASOS

“Reek,” he said, “if it please my lord.” 

M’lord.” Bolton’s lips parted just enough to show a quarter inch of teeth. It might have been a smile. 

He did not understand. “My lord? I said—” 

“—my lord, when you should have said m’lord. Your tongue betrays your birth with every word you say. If you want to sound a proper peasant, say it as if you had mud in your mouth, or were too stupid to realize it was two words, not just one.” 

“If it please my—m’lord.” 

– ADWD

Given the amount of attention Martin draws to the class differences associated with the two pronunciations, the use of “m’lord” clearly indicates that the character Arya plays is a commoner. Since Sansa is a highborn girl with a noble upbringing, this alone rules her out. She would never be scripted as calling anyone “m’lord”. 

If that wasn’t enough to make that clear, the other details of the role should.

“Mercy, I’m Mercy, and tonight I’ll be raped and murdered.”

The Bloody Hand is a play that vilifies Tyrion and is a nod to Shakespear’s Richard III. Given that this play depicts Tyion’s story using the lies and propaganda of his enemies, it does not make sense that the play’s version of Sansa would be depicted purely as a victim of his, especially one that is raped and murdered. The prosecution in Tyrion’s trial in A Storm of Swords was not only about proving his guilt, but also Sansa’s. The Lannisters, Lannister supporters, and anyone else believing their story sees her as the villain too. Here’s one version of her involvement that’s floating around:

“Who killed him?” 

 “The Imp, it’s thought. Him and his little wife.” 

 “What wife?” 

 “I forgot, you’ve been hiding under a rock. The northern girl. Winterfell’s daughter. We heard she killed the king with a spell, and afterward changed into a wolf with big leather wings like a bat, and flew out a tower window. But she left the dwarf behind and Cersei means to have his head.”

– ASOS

So instead of just being the unwitting poison mule she’s tricked into being in the novels, the story is that Sansa took an active part in the murder. A propaganda play like The Bloody Hand would not show her as a victim. It certainly wouldn’t depict her as the victim of rape.

Now, let me start by saying that, had Tyrion had sex with Sansa during their marriage, that would have 100% been rape in my view and hopefully to any other modern reader. I also realize that other characters in the novels probably assume that they did have sex. But despite that, the sexist laws and norms of the society depicted in this series do not recognize marital rape as actual rape. 

Therefore, these lines could not possibly be Sansa’s since the characters would not see her as a victim, but as a partner in her husband’s crimes. They also wouldn’t see her as a rape victim who was murdered since marital rape is not recognized in this world and Sansa is assumed to be alive on the run.

So, which character does fit the description of the one Arya plays? Shae. Or an original character Phario created who was inspired by Shae.

I never meant to be a whore, m'lords.”

The character Arya will play in The Bloody Hand is the small role of a virginal rape victim who is murdered by Tyrion. This just happens to fit Shae’s testimony at the trial (which became public knowledge) as well as her ultimate murder (the aftermath of which was seen by several guards and servants before Cersei could have her removed). Here’s Shae’s testimony:

“I never meant to be a whore, m’lords. I was to be married. A squire, he was, and a good brave boy, gentle born. But the Imp saw me at the Green Fork and put the boy I meant to marry in the front rank of the van, and after he was killed he sent his wildlings to bring me to his tent. Shagga, the big one, and Timett with the burned eye. He said if I didn’t pleasure him, he’d give me to them, so I did. Then he brought me to the city, so I’d be close when he wanted me. He made me do such shameful things…”

– ASOS

And as you can see, it matches up pretty well with the lines from Arya’s role:

She only had a few, and most were just, “Oh, no, no, no,” and “Don’t, oh don’t, don’t touch me,” and “Please, m’lord, I am still a maiden,” but this was the first time Izembaro had given her any lines at all…

Mercy, I’m Mercy, and tonight I’ll be raped and murdered. 

Both present maiden girls who are commoners (that m’lord again) raped by Tyrion. 

We don’t know what the general public thinks happened to Shae. Or if they even care. But it is possible that at least rumors of her murder on the night of Tywin’s murder got out given all the witnesses who saw her at the crime scene.

Even if Arya isn’t intended to be playing Shae specifically, the similarities between her role and Shae’s testimony make it clear she is at least playing a character inspired by Shae’s story. 

 

 

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13 hours ago, Wintersshewolf said:

There is a need to correct the wiki because it is impossible for the character Arya is playing to be Sansa since the character she is playing is clearly lowborn due to the word choice of m'lord rather than the highborn pronunciation of my lord. Sansa also wouldn't be depicted as a victim since she is considered a co-conspirator by the rest of the world due to her escape afterward. As for Shae not being a maiden, we readers knows this, but the wider world of Westeros does not. Her public testimony is that she was a maiden before Tyrion raped her. I linked to an essay addressing this in my main post, but I can add it here:

 

 

@BlackLightning thoughts? ^_^

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15 hours ago, Wintersshewolf said:

There is a need to correct the wiki because it is impossible for the character Arya is playing to be Sansa since the character she is playing is clearly lowborn due to the word choice of m'lord rather than the highborn pronunciation of my lord. Sansa also wouldn't be depicted as a victim since she is considered a co-conspirator by the rest of the world due to her escape afterward. As for Shae not being a maiden, we readers knows this, but the wider world of Westeros does not. Her public testimony is that she was a maiden before Tyrion raped her. I linked to an essay addressing this in my main post, but I can add it here:

 

 

Well I have read the article you referenced but it makes no sense.

As I have explained above we have no clue that Arya plays a lowborn girl. The 'm'lord' certainly isn't one. I don't explain why again because I did already.

The article also (and especially) makes no sense when it comes to the maiden thing:

You say 'Her public testimony is that she was a maiden before Tyrion raped her.'

That's true but it does not at all support your claim. On the contrary, it rules it out:

That's because the play has her 'raped and murdered' while she still is a maiden. Whereas even Shaes false testimony that the article cites already admits that she was no maiden anymore before for quite a long time  before she got murdered.

So even if the info about Shae made it over the Narrow Sea (which I doubt) that info would not have led to the scene that Mercy thinks about.

Sansa however as daughter of the alleged traitor and hand of the king Ned is prime material for a theatrical drama.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Amris said:

Well I have read the article you referenced but it makes no sense.

I can only guess that you didn't read it because it makes perfect sense. It spells out very clearly why Arya is playing a lowborn girl. I can try to spell out what the essay is saying again and maybe you'll be able to understand this time, otherwise I don't know. This is pretty simple and clear.

Anyway lowborn people do not have the same education that highborn people do. That means their speech pattern is different. GRRM hammers this home to us with the exchange between Theon and Roose:

Quote

 

“Reek,” he said, “if it please my lord.” 

“M’lord.” Bolton’s lips parted just enough to show a quarter inch of teeth. It might have been a smile. 

He did not understand. “My lord? I said—” 

“—my lord, when you should have said m’lord. Your tongue betrays your birth with every word you say. If you want to sound a proper peasant, say it as if you had mud in your mouth, or were too stupid to realize it was two words, not just one.” 

“If it please my—m’lord.” – ADWD

 

GRRM, without subtly of any kind, spells it out to us that people with a highborn education know that "My lord" is a two word phrase while lowborn people say "M'lord" like it's one word. Not only does George play with this repeatedly without fully explaining it to us in other conversations between characters from different classes, he provides this very scene specifically to draw attention to the difference. This exchange itself is probably a hint that Roose has since realized too late that he had Arya in his possession in ACOK since her pronunciation of "My lord" was also emphasized during their first conversation.

You can also look at the difference in castle educated Jon Snow and lowborn Slynt. 

Quote

 

“I broke my vows with a woman. I admit that. Yes.” 

 “Yes, m’lord!” When Slynt scowled, his jowls quivered. He was as broad as the Old Bear had been, and no doubt would be as bald if he lived to Mormont’s age. Half his hair was gone already, though he could not have been more than forty. 

 “Yes, my lord,” Jon said. – ASOS

 

Slynt is trying to demand respect and deference from Jon by insisting he use his title of lord. Given the difference in their upbringing, Slynt thinks the term is the one word "m'lord" while Jon gives the correct pronunciation of "my lord".

Since this happens repeatedly, GRRM is well aware of what he's doing. The “Please, m’lord, I am still a maiden,” said by the character Arya plays clearly establishes that the character is also lowborn like Shae. Sansa is not lowborn. Therefore, Sansa is not a candidate for this character. It might not be Shae. It could be an original character created for the play. But the character is clearly influenced by her testimony.

I hope you were able to understand this time. There's really reason you shouldn't.

Quote

 

That's true but it does not at all support your claim. On the contrary, it rules it out:

That's because the play has her 'raped and murdered' while she still is a maiden. Whereas even Shaes false testimony that the article cites already admits that she was no maiden anymore before for quite a long time  before she got murdered.

 

There's a thing called poetic license. Most historical adaptations do not follow the known information by the letter. Multiple events that happened months or years apart might be condensed into one scene. This happens with all of Shakespeare's history plays, which the Bloody Hand is based off of. If Arya's character is raped and murdered in one scene, that might be Phario combining events to fit everything into one two hour production.

Anyway, the only maiden Tyrion is accused of raping is Shae. Sansa wouldn't be considered a rape victim since she is his wife and this society doesn't acknowledge marital rape.

Quote

Sansa however as daughter of the alleged traitor and hand of the king Ned is prime material for a theatrical drama.

No one said Sansa isn't in the play. She could be the character Daena is playing. She's probably also a villain alongside Tyrion since she is believed to be working with him. The Tyrells and Lannister men in the Riverlands all publicly proclaim that Sansa was the poisoner or that she was working with Tyrion in the plot. This means it is public knowledge that she's supposedly involved in the crime. She wouldn't be depicted as a victim who had only one scene total.

As you point out yourself, she's the daughter of a confessed traitor, former Hand of the King, and Lord Paramount. She's also the sister of a traitorous king (from their perspective). That means Sansa's role in the play is not as tiny as the role Arya's playing. She wouldn't have only a few line and be raped and murdered in one moment. She would be a major character as Tyrion's wife and co-conspirator. At the very least, she would have a supporting role in the play, not just one scene.

I don't understand why there's such a strong insistence on Sansa only having tiny, bit role ending in death.

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On 8/7/2020 at 4:42 AM, a black swan said:

@BlackLightning thoughts? ^_^

Honestly, that Mercy chapter is so old and there are so many little "plot holes" (if you will) in the chapter, it is unlikely that the version that we know will be the final version that we see in the book....if we even have a Mercy sequence at all.

GRRM has rewritten Winds at least two or three times at this point. That Mercy chapter seems like it was part of the 2015 or 2016 version....yet here we are in 2020 and GRRM is still writing Arya chapters.

Besides, the sample chapters (or passages) that we usually get are taken from the first or second chapters of any given POV character.

Mercy is obviously not the first Arya chapter nor is it the second. And it is very unlikely to be the third. Why? Because unless the Queen that they are referring to is Margaery and not Cersei or Myrcella, the timeline doesn't match up. It is very unlikely that Arya will only have four or five chapters to her name this time around. She has only just joined the Faceless Men and there is a lot she needs to figure out and do in Braavos before she leaves for Westeros.

She's only just begun her internship with Izembaro and the play that Izembaro had presumably started working on in Dance has not even had its inaugural performance. If killing Raff the Sweetling was unauthorized, she'd be throwing it all away too early.

There is just a lot we don't know or can't make sense of in the Mercy chapter. That's the only Winds sample chapter that we can't make heads or tails of. All the others are easy to follow and easy to base predictions off of.

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On 8/8/2020 at 5:39 PM, BlackLightning said:

GRRM has rewritten Winds at least two or three times at this point. That Mercy chapter seems like it was part of the 2015 or 2016 version....yet here we are in 2020 and GRRM is still writing Arya chapters.

Yes he's still writing or editing chapters in 2020. From his June 2020 blog update, it would be more likely he's working on multiple Arya chapters which would include non-Braavos and Braavos chapters. 

Quote

Besides, the sample chapters (or passages) that we usually get are taken from the first or second chapters of any given POV character.

Mercy is obviously not the first Arya chapter nor is it the second. And it is very unlikely to be the third. Why? Because unless the Queen that they are referring to is Margaery and not Cersei or Myrcella, the timeline doesn't match up.

GRRM said Mercy was suited as an opening chapter which was why he moved it out of ADWD. Wasn't it also the opening chapter for Arya post-5 year Gap. It's been years and the Sample chapters are not completed works and he could have tweaked and edited since then. 

Quote

It is very unlikely that Arya will only have four or five chapters to her name this time around. She has only just joined the Faceless Men and there is a lot she needs to figure out and do in Braavos before she leaves for Westeros.

Agreed. Seems she's on tracks for far more than just 4 or 5 chapters. :) Judging by GRRM's June 2020 blog post, he was writing Arya chapters the week he published the blog and then the following week he returned to Braavos to write new/edit old material.

Quote

She's only just begun her internship with Izembaro and the play that Izembaro had presumably started working on in Dance has not even had its inaugural performance. If killing Raff the Sweetling was unauthorized, she'd be throwing it all away too early.

 

Without Raff being in the picture, she wake up that morning thinking this would be Mercy's last day. George confirmed in a SSM that was the last we'd see of Mercy. Arya didn't seem worried or concerned about her return to the HoBW at the end of Mercy like she did after killing the Oathbreaker. She seemed sad to leave her friends and the life she built as Mercy.

What makes you think she just began her apprenticeship? 

Quote

There is just a lot we don't know or can't make sense of in the Mercy chapter. That's the only Winds sample chapter that we can't make heads or tails of. All the others are easy to follow and easy to base predictions off of.

It would tricky if the chapter was read in a very surface level reading. 

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On 8/10/2020 at 6:02 AM, MissM said:

Yes he's still writing or editing chapters in 2020. From his June 2020 blog update, it would be more likely he's working on multiple Arya chapters which would include non-Braavos and Braavos chapters. 

Agreed. That's exactly my point.

Do you think that the final Arya chapter(s) will see Arya back in Westeros in Winds, do you think she'll make a surprise cameo appearance in someone else's POV chapter or do you think that she won't turn back up in Westeros until Dream?

On 8/10/2020 at 6:02 AM, MissM said:

GRRM said Mercy was suited as an opening chapter which was why he moved it out of ADWD. Wasn't it also the opening chapter for Arya post-5 year Gap. It's been years and the Sample chapters are not completed works and he could have tweaked and edited since then. 

Uh, I suppose. It's not that I don't agree with you are saying about GRRM's words in regards to Mercy; it's just that I think it is a bad, outdated idea.

Mercy doesn't really work well as an opening chapter as we have no earthly idea what is going on and why. Think about where the last Arya chapter left off and where Mercy begins. We don't even see Arya meet Izembaro but apparently it's Arya's last day of "training" (whatever that is supposed to mean as we never see or hear about the type of training she receives from Izemaro) which means she will have to say goodbye and end all her relationships with the people she knew. Yet, that's supposed to be a first chapter.

Alayne I does work well as an opening chapter because it has a lot of introductory exposition and several small inciting incidents that inform and excite the reader.

Daenerys IX (the chapter where Dany leaps into action in the fighting pits and rides off on Drogon) was supposed to be Dany's opening chapter post-5YG. Both the 5YG and Dany's first chapter being the fighting pits climax didn't work out for a lot of different reasons.

I'm not saying that the Mercy chapter (nor an revised version of Mercy) won't appear in Winds. I'm saying that it can't really appear as an opening chapter no more than Dany IX could.

On 8/10/2020 at 6:02 AM, MissM said:

GRRM said Mercy was suited as an opening chapter which was why he moved it out of ADWD. Wasn't it also the opening chapter for Arya post-5 year Gap. It's been years and the Sample chapters are not completed works and he could have tweaked and edited since then. 

Because the end of the last Arya chapter in Dance said that Arya has just been accepted as an acolyte of the Faceless Men and will now begin her apprenticeship with Izembaro...

Cut to Mercy.

On 8/10/2020 at 6:02 AM, MissM said:

It would tricky if the chapter was read in a very surface level reading. 

What's this supposed to mean?

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On 8/8/2020 at 6:39 PM, BlackLightning said:

Mercy is obviously not the first Arya chapter nor is it the second. And it is very unlikely to be the third. Why? Because unless the Queen that they are referring to is Margaery and not Cersei or Myrcella, the timeline doesn't match up. It is very unlikely that Arya will only have four or five chapters to her name this time around. She has only just joined the Faceless Men and there is a lot she needs to figure out and do in Braavos before she le

Well, obviously we have very different opinons on this subject.

Mercy works perfectly as an opener for Arya.

And GRRM himself confirmed he had planned Mercy to be Aryas final Dance chapter, then reconsiderd to move it to WOW.

Mercy IS Arya I WOW,  sure as hell.

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I agree, Mercy feels like an opening chapter to me. In her last ADWD chapter, she was assigned to the theater group and now this one shows how she's become an integral and nearly essential member with helping everyone. Since the series isn't about this group and her time with them is about the skills she can gather, it makes sense that not much time would be spent with them.

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On 8/15/2020 at 11:52 PM, Wintersshewolf said:

I agree, Mercy feels like an opening chapter to me. In her last ADWD chapter, she was assigned to the theater group and now this one shows how she's become an integral and nearly essential member with helping everyone. Since the series isn't about this group and her time with them is about the skills she can gather, it makes sense that not much time would be spent with them.

But the problem with that is that we don't see Arya learn or do anything from Izembaro.

It's basically her last day with Izembaro and his theater troup.

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3 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

But the problem with that is that we don't see Arya learn or do anything from Izembaro.

It's basically her last day with Izembaro and his theater troup.

Well, I love Arya,but I don´t need 3 chapters of her rehearsing her text and trying on costumes.

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