Arya Stark: Mindless Psycho Killer or Righteous Avenger?

[TheLastWolf]

Just now, Springwatch said:

There other possible reasons for killing him - maybe his wife wanted to marry someone else, his son-in-law wanted to inherit, someone who made a false claim feared being caught....

Nobody will pay huge prices for these motives. Hiring a Faceless Man to eliminate husband for a lover? 

2 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Whatever. If there was a test, Arya failed

Then how was she promoted? 

2 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Her method should have scored her a fail too. She put a poisoned gold coin into general circulation - how many people are going to bite it?

Oh please, poison after consumption isn't gonna last centuries

[Springwatch]

26 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

Nobody will pay huge prices for these motives. Hiring a Faceless Man to eliminate husband for a lover? 

Sure. The things we do for love. And she only has to give most of own personal wealth, which might not be much.

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Then how was she promoted? 

The training continues until she either conforms or dies.

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Oh please, poison after consumption isn't gonna last centuries

You bite a coin to test if it's gold. You don't lick it or suck it. If one bite was enough to kill, there would be plenty left on the coin.

[SeanF]

Arya has nothing at all in common with Ramsay Bolton.  The comparison is absurd.

Arya has been deeply damaged by her experiences, and she's in a dangerous place, as a member of a cult that is dedicated to killing people.  But, there is no evidence at all that she tortures and rapes for the fun of it.

[TheLastWolf]

1 hour ago, zandru said:

I'm constantly amazed by the number of folks who defend, to their last breath, insurance fraud. Mayhap we've got a lot of agents here in the forum? ;-)

One of those @Springwatch? No offence, but why defend that man who was obviously not moral, Arya's observations are enough if the FM supposedly lied

And if you say excess poison was used, it was the waif who prepared it IIRC. And Jaqen making Weese's dog mad also is not perfect if we go by your methods. 

And that wife lover theory is just one of your theories. 

Edit.... 

The wife does not have to sacrifice the great part of her wealth for a murder for which she can use a cheap assassin instead of the FM.  It has been mentioned countless times about their price being high. She ain't Jaime to say 'the things we do for love' nor I suspect her comfortably leaving a prosperous life for some lover. 

[Springwatch]

6 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

One of those @Springwatch? No offence, but why defend that man who was obviously not moral, Arya's observations are enough if the FM supposedly lied

The man was tense and unattractive. That doesn't mean he's done anything to deserve the death penalty.

6 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

And if you say excess poison was used, it was the waif who prepared it IIRC. And Jaqen making Weese's dog mad also is not perfect if we go by your methods. 

The rules of the FM are very strange, certainly. Maybe it was a lie that you are only allowed to kill the nominated victim. But I don't think so - how can they have any rules at all if the trainees are allowed to think it's all a game?

6 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

And that wife lover theory is just one of your theories. 

Not a theory I or anyone has to believe in. I'm just pointing out there are many motives for murder out there.

[zandru]

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

The faceless men are the best liars in the world

Evidence? Also, I see no justification for your subsequent speculations, none of them.

[James Fenimore Cooper XXII]

Will Arya Stark become Ramsay or Reacher?  Neither.  She will be what she is.  A uniquely disturbed woman who will serially kill a lot of both the innocent and the guilty.  I do not see a path where she could turn around and become a good person.  She will eventually learn of her brother's treason and of his execution by the NW.  Her horrific list will get longer.  She will want revenge.  I do not even think the fact that her brother committed crimes at the wall will give her pause.  Robb humiliated the Freys but that is not going to dissuade her from taking revenge on Walder and his family.  Arya will be another heart of stone.  

[HoodedCrow]

Arya still has good and just impulses. She does kind things. She cares about others and saved the northerners. She wants to defend the innocent. They are trying to brainwash her for whatever reason. It won’t work, as she was never converted to embroidery. She was nicer than Rob. Psychopath in the making is Joffrey. Arya was born that way.

[Springwatch]

2 hours ago, zandru said:

Evidence?

Um. Ok, scratch that. It is still true that the FM can and do lie to Arya, and she knows it.

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Also, I see no justification for your subsequent speculations, none of them.

I regret starting it, I really do. Anyway, not speculations, just examples to show there is an area of known unknowns. I mean, what would Jack Reacher do? He would check for personal as well as professional motives; he wouldn't just launch in and assassinate the first suspect. I assume. The books would be very short otherwise.

3 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

The wife does not have to sacrifice the great part of her wealth for a murder for which she can use a cheap assassin instead of the FM. 

All we know is that the FM were hired, so some unknown person did think it was necessary to pay the price.

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It has been mentioned countless times about their price being high.

Yes. LF says the price is high - but it can't be ruinously high or kings and lords would never use them (which obviously they do, or LF wouldn't have mentioned them). It's a bit of a paradox.

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She ain't Jaime to say 'the things we do for love' nor I suspect her comfortably leaving a prosperous life for some lover. 

Damn, you're better at this imagining thing than I am. .   In the absence of solid facts, the waif's story gives some idea of one kind of FM customer (actually 2 kinds) -

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When I was six my father wed again. His new wife treated me kindly until she gave birth to a daughter of her own. Then it was her wish that I should die, so her own blood might inherit my father's wealth. She should have sought the favor of the Many-Faced God, but she could not bear the sacrifice he would ask for her. Instead, she thought to poison me herself. It left me as you see me now, but I did not die. When the healers in the House of the Red Hands told my father what she had done, he came here and made sacrifice, offering up all his wealth and me. Him of the Many Faces heard his prayer. I was brought to the temple to serve, and my father's wife received the gift.

[AFFC - CAT OF THE CANALS]

ETA

With the usual caution about the waif mixing truth and lies....

 

[Curled Finger]

11 hours ago, Nevets said:

I think she is getting darker.  She is getting to the point of being quite willing to kill people who are not a threat to her, which is troubling, given that she is an 11 year old child.  Fortunately, she has a strong moral compass and cares about the welfare of others.  This will help her keep from falling over the edge.   It also means she would be a lousy assassin.

I think Insurance Man was a test to see if she was willing to kill him.  The pressure needed probably gave them some pause.  Raff won't help matters.  They know he is on her list, thus it is personal. 

By the way, we don't know why Insurance Man was killed.  They let her conclude that he was a fraudster, but they did not say so directly.  Given that they prize the ability to lie, I don't trust them.  I accept that they tell the literal truth,, nothing more.

I find Dareon to be her worst act.  I think she killed him because she disliked him for his betrayal of Sam. who she liked, and by extension her brother, and his arrogance about it.  The fact that he was a deserter was a hook to justify it, in my opinion, and not the main reason. 

However, I expect that, in the end, she will be OK, but it will be a rough journey.  She won't become another Ramsay, and couldn't if she tried.  That kind of nastiness and sadism simply isn't in her nature.

That's interesting, Nevets.  Our 1st chapter finds Ned executing a Nightswatchman for deserting, according to the rules of the land.  Daeron was not doing his job at all and fell into the singer in a brothel's life.   Arya was performing something of a duty according to her station as a lady of Winterfell.  I did not see this as an excuse to kill him.  We saw a great deal that Arya did not and she still killed him.  Surely that goes to her constitutional faith in the laws of the North as seen through her child's eyes?  

[Wintersshewolf]

5 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Then how was she promoted? 

I've been wondering if Arya's "failures" have actually been her passing the tests. They're presenting obstacles and putting temptations in her path (I believe they sent the Westerosi envoys to the play in Mercy) to see how she will respond. Essentially I'm not convinced that they're telling her the truth in what their goals are for her.

 

[300 H&H Magnum]

3 hours ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

Will Arya Stark become Ramsay or Reacher?  Neither.  She will be what she is.  A uniquely disturbed woman who will serially kill a lot of both the innocent and the guilty.  I do not see a path where she could turn around and become a good person.  She will eventually learn of her brother's treason and of his execution by the NW.  Her horrific list will get longer.  She will want revenge.  I do not even think the fact that her brother committed crimes at the wall will give her pause.  Robb humiliated the Freys but that is not going to dissuade her from taking revenge on Walder and his family.  Arya will be another heart of stone.  

Jon's death is not going to make Arya go straight.  It will do the opposite; drive her farther into a madness and start her next killing spree.  Jon's last thoughts may echo back in her mind. Stick em with the pointy end.  They belong together.  I think they will get that wish near the end of the last novel.  As direwolves.  

[Wintersshewolf]

lol "next killing spree"? Arya hasn't even gone on one killing spree. She has a far lower kill count than most of the other characters. There seems to be some misunderstanding about what's going on in Arya's chapters because she isn't even close to madness. Unless every character is mad.

[Moiraine Sedai]

On 7/24/2020 at 6:15 PM, Only 89 selfies today said:

@TheLastWolf

Your description of Arya as simply different from other children is being too easy and too forgiving of her.  That is my opinion.  She is more disturbed and damaged in reality.  An example of someone who is different from his peers is Samwell Tarly.  Arya is a much, much darker person.  She is not just a kid who is lost.  Arya taunted Sweetling while the guy was bleeding to death.  That was sick pleasure she took.  

 

23 hours ago, Quoth the raven, said:

It was also not her place to murder Dareon the singer.  Nothing good came from killing Dareon.  The faceless creeps have no right to execute the old insurance agent even if the allegations of fraud are true.  The old man had done no harm to Arya.  She did it to pass the test to continue her studies at the school of death. 

I can only speak for myself and how I feel about Arya.  I dislike Arya but I am not a hater. It is difficult to know how her story will end but it does not look good at the moment.  The Ghost of HH was greatly disturbed upon seeing Arya.  I do not think the old lady would have been so unsettled if Arya's victims are only Freys, Boltons, and other baddies.  She has already killed two who did not deserve it.  Dareon and the insurance man. 

The ghost of high heart gave us a glimpse of a terrible future for Arya.  

[Nevets]

Arya is an 11 year old child.  As such, I do not think it is beneficial for her to be accustomed to killing people for any reason, although I am willing to accept killing necessary to defend herself or others.  But none of her murders in Braavos qualify.  Also, I think she is in danger of over-confidence.  She has been getting by on surprise and a great deal of luck.  Well, her luck is going to run out, and someone is going to see her coming.  And then she is going to get her ass kicked.

We have no idea why Insurance Man was targeted.  For all we know, he is undercutting competitors or has impatient heirs, or someone else for whom his death is worth a lot of money.

I still don't think Dareon's status as a deserter was her primary motive.  She was angry about his betrayal of Sam and Aemon.  He might have died even if not NW.  Also, if she had met someone like Gared who had seen too much and kept to himself, I doubt she would have really cared.  It was a motive, just not the main one.  Also, killing deserters isn't her job.

I think that the FM were initially a beneficial influence for her.  But the more she stays with them, the more I think their influence will become more malign than beneficial.

[Shi Qiang]

We are supposed to understand Arya's motivations but not agree with them.  It is understandable how a child seeing her father's death will cause trauma and cause her to snap.  There, I said it.  Arya has snapped and she is mad.  She deserves a little bit of compassion from the reader but we cannot excuse her decisions.  Going through her list of people to kill will not bring her family back.  And we all know how difficult it is to punish justly.  After all, the Starks rebelled and they tried to break apart the kingdom.  Robb took Walder's help and crapped on the old man.  Jon Snow betrayed the Night's Watch.  Catelyn escalated the conflict with the Lannisters.  Those things need to be taken into account if the enemies of her family are to be judged fairly and justly.  But Stoneheart does not do that.  I doubt Arya would consider these mitigating circumstances and realize her family shares an equal amount of guilt.  There is not going to be justice as she kills the people on that list.  She is not turning into a Reacher kind of character.  Arya will have a negative effect on the future of Westeros.  Killing somebody like Walder Frey will only throw the Riverlands into chaos and make it difficult to prepare for the threat of a long winter.  It will better serve the greater good to let Walder and Roose live because they have good organization skills and are very capable leaders.  I know the fans who love the Starks will cheer on as she kills people.  Arya is wrong though and killing is counterproductive to peace in this case.  These books are really a story of families in conflict.  People do a lot of wrongs for their families.  It happens in real life and might be the root cause of evil in the world.  Arya has been described as a child soldier.  She may be.  But this soldier is not killing to change the world for the better.  She is killing for her family, for the Starks.  I am one Martin fan who will not be cheering for Arya Stark as she kills people.  I don't even like the Starks.  They got themselves involved in a war and came out on the losing end.  Their demise is partly their own fault.  Revenge is not called for.  Arya is not the only child to have lost loved ones during war.  A lot of people have lost loved ones and they had no part in the Stark-Lannister feud.  They didn't join a cult of killers to learn how to kill.  They moved on. 

[HoodedCrow]

Arya would defend me, or the Hound. Yes it’s dark. Westeros is dark. Otherwise, be Sansa? Cersei? Stoneheart? Robb, Ned, Jon, killed people, but there is no talk about that. Arya is tame compared to the Stark males. Bran is different only because he was disabled. Taunting in Mercy Is understandable, since he tortured people. She is still a 11year old concrete thinker. She is just hanging on to her humanity by a Needle.

Martin wanted a Rogue in his party. I wouldn’t play D& D with a rogue. I was a tank. Being a full magic user wasn’t fun. I happily enough played wow until I had great toys. I played feral by choice. I also played with my sweetie when they were traveling for work.

Arya is an assassin/ rogue. She is a good character to have on your side.she would never hurt someone like me. She’s 11, and been brainwashed to kill. Her brothers were okay with killing . Jaime, Tyrion, are warriors too.

[Rose of Red Lake]

Arya's problem is nothing like Ramsay's. It's that she feels she's able to be judge, jury, and executioner. She's like Frodo when he says Gollum deserves death. Her journey is about an ability to find nuance and not pass judgement/death so quickly. 

While GRRM has called her a psychopathic 10 year old killing and slitting people's throats (x) -  she's also very young and I dont think this is her true nature. I think all characters will be embracing their true natures in the end. Her true nature is craving adventure. She will still be violent and still kill when needed; but she will be able to focus on what's important, which is helping people like she did in that barn. 

[MissM]

17 hours ago, Springwatch said:

The training continues until she either conforms or dies.

The question was how did she fail (like you claimed) if they are actually rewarding her? Her actions continue to suggest she can't conform to their rules and yet they keep her around and even promote her? Something is not adding up here.

11 hours ago, Wintersshewolf said:

I've been wondering if Arya's "failures" have actually been her passing the tests. They're presenting obstacles and putting temptations in her path (I believe they sent the Westerosi envoys to the play in Mercy) to see how she will respond. Essentially I'm not convinced that they're telling her the truth in what their goals are for her.

If they are agreeable to her responses (continuing to be Arya) then what is the goal in the end? They know Arya is there to learn their arts and return to her life in Westeros to fight for her family. She all but admitted that on her first day in the HoBW. 

4 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Arya's problem is nothing like Ramsay's. It's that she feels she's able to be judge, jury, and executioner. She's like Frodo when he says Gollum deserves death. Her journey is about an ability to find nuance and not pass judgement/death so quickly. 

While GRRM has called her a psychopathic 10 year old killing and slitting people's throats (x) -  she's also very young and I dont think this is her true nature. I think all characters will be embracing their true natures in the end. Her true nature is craving adventure. She will still be violent and still kill when needed; but she will be able to focus on what's important, which is helping people like she did in that barn. 

Well for one George was clearly just joking, he was describing in purposely absurd and exaggerated terms in that answer as the audience laughed along. 

I agree, it's not her true nature. But where do you get craving adventure as her true nature? Especially after everything she has seen and been through.

 

[TheLastWolf]

15 hours ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

I do not see a path where she could turn around and become a good person

Hatred/dislike clouds your vision along with bias and prejudice 

15 hours ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

She will eventually learn of her brother's treason and of his execution by the NW.  Her horrific list will get longer. 

No reason for that if Jon is ressurected and there with her. And the people in the list are HORRIFIC not the list itself. 

15 hours ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

  I do not even think the fact that her brother committed crimes at the wall will give her pause. 

That has been discussed to the death in a gazillion different threads that prove to haters like you that Jon did very less things wrong and potentially saved the realm, considering that the true enemy are not wildling, but Others who would make the wildling into wights. 

15 hours ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

Robb humiliated the Freys but that is not going to dissuade her from taking revenge on Walder and his family. 

That does not justify the Red Wedding. Holy hells, would you ignore the sacred laws of hospitality and kill your liege lord and king and his men and family just because he married someone to save her HONOR?!!?!

Walder frey's family is incestuous and Kinslaying( courtesy men like Black Walder) how can you call it a family at all? Everyone plotting the murder of the other to get the lordship. That's what happens if you breed a hundred kids

4 hours ago, Allardyce said:

It will better serve the greater good to let Walder and Roose live because they have good organization skills and are very capable leaders.

HOLY SHIT!!!!