Arya Stark: Mindless Psycho Killer or Righteous Avenger?

[Springwatch]

1 hour ago, MissM said:

The question was how did she fail (like you claimed) if they are actually rewarding her? Her actions continue to suggest she can't conform to their rules and yet they keep her around and even promote her? Something is not adding up here.

How was she rewarded? She hasn't received any benefits or authority over other members. She is allowed to continue her training as before. The robe is probably given at the point of the first kill in the name of the FM - it does not mean she did it in the right way according to the standards of the FM, because clearly she didn't. She was looking for justifications for the kill, when it is fundamental to the religion that they do not judge. And she didn't retrieve the poisoned coin, so it's likely there will be collateral damage.

But yes, something is a bit odd about the rules of the FM.

[MissM]

1 hour ago, TheLastWolf said:

No reason for that if Jon is ressurected and there with her. And the people in the list are HORRIFIC not the list itself. 

That does not justify the Red Wedding. Holy hells, would you ignore the sacred laws of hospitality and kill your liege lord and king and his men and family just because he married someone to save her HONOR?!!?!

HOLY SHIT!!!!  

It never stops being surprising or ironic how some people so willingly support the rights of truly evil ****stains like Walder Frey and the creatures he calls sons or Ramsay who hunts, rapes and skins girls for fun and on some weird level that depravity can in any way be comparable to a girl who doesn't flinch when punishing child rapists, murders and oathbreakers. Is it bias? Misogyny? Trolling? idgi.

5 hours ago, Allardyce said:

We are supposed to understand Arya's motivations but not agree with them.  It is understandable how a child seeing her father's death will cause trauma and cause her to snap.  There, I said it.  Arya has snapped and she is mad.  She deserves a little bit of compassion from the reader but we cannot excuse her decisions.  Going through her list of people to kill will not bring her family back.  And we all know how difficult it is to punish justly.  After all, the Starks rebelled and they tried to break apart the kingdom.  Robb took Walder's help and crapped on the old man.  Jon Snow betrayed the Night's Watch.  Catelyn escalated the conflict with the Lannisters.  Those things need to be taken into account if the enemies of her family are to be judged fairly and justly.  But Stoneheart does not do that.  I doubt Arya would consider these mitigating circumstances and realize her family shares an equal amount of guilt.  There is not going to be justice as she kills the people on that list.  She is not turning into a Reacher kind of character.  Arya will have a negative effect on the future of Westeros.  Killing somebody like Walder Frey will only throw the Riverlands into chaos and make it difficult to prepare for the threat of a long winter.  It will better serve the greater good to let Walder and Roose live because they have good organization skills and are very capable leaders.  I know the fans who love the Starks will cheer on as she kills people.  Arya is wrong though and killing is counterproductive to peace in this case.  These books are really a story of families in conflict.  People do a lot of wrongs for their families.  It happens in real life and might be the root cause of evil in the world.  Arya has been described as a child soldier.  She may be.  But this soldier is not killing to change the world for the better.  She is killing for her family, for the Starks.  I am one Martin fan who will not be cheering for Arya Stark as she kills people.  I don't even like the Starks.  They got themselves involved in a war and came out on the losing end.  Their demise is partly their own fault.  Revenge is not called for.  Arya is not the only child to have lost loved ones during war.  A lot of people have lost loved ones and they had no part in the Stark-Lannister feud.  They didn't join a cult of killers to learn how to kill.  They moved on. 

Ugh.

Reading people defend child murderers and rapists is nauseating.

When she killed Raff, how was that for the Starks? Raff deserved to die for driving a spear through a crippled child's throat and gang-raping a 13 year old girl and killing her brother who tried to save her. Please come up with your righteous list of "mitigating circumstances" to clean away those crimes and turn Raff into an angel Arya should apologise to. 

 

[kissdbyfire]

Some of the arguments being made here are... unbelievable, to put it mildly. Brings to mind all those threads that turned into “Ramsay is Awesome Fan Club”, or “Bowen Marsh is a hero”, and “Poor honourable Janos Slynt”.

Arya is a grey character, same as most. Not all, since some are truly and thoroughly evil, like Ramsay and Gregor Clegane. But to argue that Arya is a psychopath, or that she’s doomed, or even that she’s been on a “killing spree” - really? - is not only hilarious but, as usual, completely ignoring and dismissing the text. 

[HoodedCrow]

Honestly, it’s like people can’t read or understand character and character development or world building. They are too busy with a simplistic view of a complex character. Misogyny is part of it, I think as Arya has a heart, while favorites like Stannis, Theon, Robb, the Hound, the Mountain, Cersei, Jaime and Robert kill people without a thought. Arya puts the justice she learned from Ned up front. She puts helping people, justice and survival up front. How bad does she get? She has a long way to go to zero. She is compartmentalizing. That’s what soldiers do. Remember, George as a conscientious objector. Losing your individuality to become part of a war machine is common. Arya hasn’t lost it, yet. Let me know when she revels in slaughtering innocents.

[MissM]

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

How was she rewarded? She hasn't received any benefits or authority over other members. She is allowed to continue her training as before. The robe is probably given at the point of the first kill in the name of the FM - it does not mean she did it in the right way according to the standards of the FM, because clearly she didn't. She was looking for justifications for the kill, when it is fundamental to the religion that they do not judge. And she didn't retrieve the poisoned coin, so it's likely there will be collateral damage.

But yes, something is a bit odd about the rules of the FM.

They continue her training as before is not an accurate conclusion. What they did was take her eyesight which elevated her to the next level 6 months before it was time. 

"The robe is probably given at the point of the first kill in the name of the FM"

You're making an unsupported assumption here to justify your point. Plus it wasn't for the FM. Arya Stark has returned and did this deed said the Kindly Man. Even with Raff, Arya thanks the Old Gods for giving her this gift. The MFG/FM are a poorly fitted placeholder until Arya can move on to what she really wants/needs. She's using them and they know it. Perhaps the exchange is mutual and the FM are playing a long game too. 

Bottom line what Arya did was against their rules and she was not punished for it which only enforces my point that this FM dynamic isn't adding up. Later down the line, they gave her back her Cat of the Canals identity (which was originally used to kill the oathbreaker) to complete yet another task. Rules? What rules?

Judging. That's something Arya feels fundamentally entitled to, it's in her nature. The Kindly Man compares Arya's behaviour to that of a God who passes judgement. It's no different to a King on earth who does the same. Arya would do well to expand her rather black & white views on the world. But that comes with her oncoming maturity and hopefully new experiences and lessons along the way.

[Nevets]

Am I the only one here that actually cares, or has even noticed, that Arya is only 11 years old?  Just wondering.  I don't think killing people is doing her psyche any good at that age.

[TheLastWolf]

43 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Am I the only one here that actually cares, or has even noticed, that Arya is only 11 years old?  Just wondering.  I don't think killing people is doing her psyche any good at that age.

It would take me longer than I care to list the people who are called Great Warriors because they began killing people when they were 10/11. And I mean in the books only. 

Besides, wars do not make one great. The words of wise master Yoda. 

[MissM]

39 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Am I the only one here that actually cares, or has even noticed, that Arya is only 11 years old?  Just wondering.  I don't think killing people is doing her psyche any good at that age.

George put Arya through things that made her grow up a lot faster than her years account for. She's not done learning and coping with being Arya Stark again. She's had nightmares and feels remorse. She's only 11 and her story isn't over yet. She has choices to make, new people to meet that can leave lasting impacts on her, and new truths to be revealed that could affect her choices. A lot of bad things happen during and after a war. Her psyche is fairing well considering her ability to sit in complete silence for nights upon nights alone on a street corner with nothing but the sounds around her and visions of a direwolf under moonlit skies somewhere far across the sea. She is coping. She can adapt and become whatever the situation requires of her. 

The most solace she's had since arriving in Braavos was when she was an ordinary working girl pushing her wheel barrel with cats on her tail and family she can go home to. That preferred desire clashes with her need or responsibility to correct injustices. Again, she's only 11 and still has much to learn. 

[Rose of Red Lake]

6 hours ago, MissM said:

Well for one George was clearly just joking, he was describing in purposely absurd and exaggerated terms in that answer as the audience laughed along

Yeah, he probably was.

6 hours ago, MissM said:

agree, it's not her true nature. But where do you get craving adventure as her true nature? Especially after everything she has seen and been through.

A character's true nature is what drives them before all of the shitty events. Those events just temper the soul, but in her heart she is always looking to explore things. Her adventurous spirit can be seen in how she played with Mycah and how she responded to Ned wanting to take them home.

[Victor Newman]

20 hours ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

Will Arya Stark become Ramsay or Reacher?  Neither.  She will be what she is.  A uniquely disturbed woman who will serially kill a lot of both the innocent and the guilty.  I do not see a path where she could turn around and become a good person.  She will eventually learn of her brother's treason and of his execution by the NW.  Her horrific list will get longer.  She will want revenge.  I do not even think the fact that her brother committed crimes at the wall will give her pause.  Robb humiliated the Freys but that is not going to dissuade her from taking revenge on Walder and his family.  Arya will be another heart of stone.  

Arya Stoneheart.  I can see that happening.  

[Wintersshewolf]

20 hours ago, MissM said:

If they are agreeable to her responses (continuing to be Arya) then what is the goal in the end? They know Arya is there to learn their arts and return to her life in Westeros to fight for her family. She all but admitted that on her first day in the HoBW. 

I'm wondering if the FM are going to become more directly involved in different plotlines and Arya is a part of that. There are contradictions in her training and the way Jaqen went out of his way to test/recruit her. It just all seems very strange. I think something larger is going on that they haven't told her. Maybe they are testing her for something greater than an acolyte. With the dead rising, it seems like the HOBAW would take a side. Since they see death as a gift, creating zombies could be seen as sacrilegious. 

[The Commentator]

I am not too sure those faceless men will be offended by the wights.  The White Walkers are death.  The fm may look upon them as Gods and therefore start making more offerings.  

[The Commentator]

On 7/25/2020 at 2:20 PM, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

Will Arya Stark become Ramsay or Reacher?  Neither.  She will be what she is.  A uniquely disturbed woman who will serially kill a lot of both the innocent and the guilty.  I do not see a path where she could turn around and become a good person.  She will eventually learn of her brother's treason and of his execution by the NW.  Her horrific list will get longer.  She will want revenge.  I do not even think the fact that her brother committed crimes at the wall will give her pause.  Robb humiliated the Freys but that is not going to dissuade her from taking revenge on Walder and his family.  Arya will be another heart of stone.  

I also do not see a "path" for her to make it back into the "light."  Yes, HoodedCrow is right, she still has some good impulses.  She is not completely dark.  But it is accurate to say that Arya is more dark than light.  She will continue to get darker until only a small amount of good is left.  My opinion, her purpose in the story is to show the destructiveness and collateral damage of revenge.  

[kissdbyfire]

10 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

I am not too sure those faceless men will be offended by the wights.  The White Walkers are death.  The fm may look upon them as Gods and therefore start making more offerings.  

“Valar morghulis”, all men must die. Doesn’t really sound like the Faceless Men would be cool with the idea of raising the dead, as it is something that goes completely against their philosophy.

[SeanF]

Martin's three favourite characters are Tyrion, Arya, and Daenerys.  But, he's already said Tyrion is "the villain."  If the tale is about Arya becoming a psychopathic terrorist, and Daenerys becoming Sauron, in addition, I expect a lot of readers will be wondering what the point of the story was. Perhaps I'm overoptimistic, but I don't think Martin intends something that hopeless.

[Hodor the Articulate]

It's generally accepted that Sansa will retire from her acting gig with all her new skills but zero psychopathy, so why is the idea that Arya will become an unfeeling killer so prevalent?

[MissM]

1 hour ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

I also do not see a "path" for her to make it back into the "light."  Yes, HoodedCrow is right, she still has some good impulses.  She is not completely dark.  But it is accurate to say that Arya is more dark than light.  She will continue to get darker until only a small amount of good is left.  

Accurate based on what metric? Ignoring all the good she's done and reducing it to mere "impulses" doesn't seem at all fair or accurate.

Quote

My opinion, her purpose in the story is to show the destructiveness and collateral damage of revenge. 

Rather repetitive considering Lady Stoneheart says Hi and you know still exists. According to George, she plays an important role going forward. 

 

[DrSilverFox]

2 minutes ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

It's generally accepted that Sansa will retire from her acting gig with all her new skills but zero psychopathy, so why is the idea that Arya will become an unfeeling killer so prevalent?

Well to begin with Arya has killed people at a very young age and that's gonna leave a mark. Also Arya had once told she didn't feel anything when she killed which means she's repressing her emotions and that's not good at all. Now with Sansa, she's learning the art of cunningness from Littlefinger and she has sometimes questioned herself if what she's doing is right. 

[TheLastWolf]

56 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Martin's three favourite characters are Tyrion, Arya, and Daenerys.  But, he's already said Tyrion is "the villain."  If the tale is about Arya becoming a psychopathic terrorist, and Daenerys becoming Sauron, in addition, I expect a lot of readers will be wondering what the point of the story was. Perhaps I'm overoptimistic, but I don't think Martin intends something that hopeless.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/winteriscoming.net/2014/08/31/george-r-r-martins-favorite-character/amp/

Quote

George R.R. Martin took to his LiveJournal today to discuss his recent interview schedule, taking a moment to express his exasperation at constantly being asked who his favorite character was. As anyone who’s read the A Song Of Ice And Fire books, watched the Game Of Thrones show, or read any interview with GRRM can attest, it’s the clever, sarcastic, heroic, pragmatic, and incredibly virile Tyrion Lannister so don’t ask again, thanks.

 

Martin then proceeded to explain that he loves all of his point-of-view characters, but clearly not equally, then proceeded to list them off. “I love all my viewpoint characters, Arya and Sansa and Bran, Jon Snow and Brienne, Arianne and Cersei and Jaime, Theon, even Victarion and the Damphair, ALL of them, but I love Tyrion the bestest.” By not mentioning Daenerys, the author clearly foreshadowed her imminent death and is also laughing in the face of all supporters of Team Targaryen

GRRM makes conflicting comments though. 

[HoodedCrow]

Of course Arya is marked. Sansa is marked. I would suggest going through the books and noting kindness from both. Then go through and notice kindness from Joffrey or Ramsey or Stannis or Roose, or Robert.

Ha, release the hounds Sansa?