Arya Stark: Mindless Psycho Killer or Righteous Avenger?

[SeanF]

15 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/winteriscoming.net/2014/08/31/george-r-r-martins-favorite-character/amp/

GRRM makes conflicting comments though. 

More recently he described Arya and Daenerys as joint second.

[MissM]

32 minutes ago, SeanF said:

More recently he described Arya and Daenerys as joint second.

Any new quotes you could share?

Here are some I can recall:

Quote

 

Question: A part from Tyron, is there any female character you love more than the others?

George: Oh, probably Arya.

Now he was asked, not about favorites exactly, but who he enjoys writing for the most? GRRM said Tyrion and Arya.

 

 

Quote

GRRM's favorite line in the books is often repeated (denoting its importance later on) a line Jon tells Arya when they last meet, "Stick 'em with the pointy end."

 

Quote

 

Just another teasing quote from George:

Question: Any particular storyline is enjoying right now?

Answer: He said that Dany's storyline is emerging in increasing importance. But he is struggling with the Meereenese Knot. So he can't say he is enjoying it. But he is really enjoying writing Arya's story. He could write an entire novel of it. He could write an entire YA novel about her... (at this point the audience started cheering and yelling for him to "DO IT!")

 

 

[Springwatch]

On 7/26/2020 at 12:47 PM, MissM said:

They continue her training as before is not an accurate conclusion. What they did was take her eyesight which elevated her to the next level 6 months before it was time. 

I was talking about the insurance man, not Dareon. Although, again, I think framing it as levels and promotion is maybe the wrong approach. It's not like a military academy, or Hogwarts - there's no need for a fixed curriculum or standard exams, because the training is one on one and can be tailored to the individual. In Arya's case, she was skidding out of their control, killing under her own name - blindness slowed her down, forced to her think and take in information, kept her closer to home and under their thumb.

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"The robe is probably given at the point of the first kill in the name of the FM"

You're making an unsupported assumption here to justify your point.

Not much of an assumption considering that's literally what happened. I think the robe is not about passing a test as such, but showing a level of commitment, in this case by murdering on command.  She was given a robe before, when she threw her treasured possessions away. Commitment.

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<snip> The MFG/FM are a poorly fitted placeholder until Arya can move on to what she really wants/needs. She's using them and they know it. Perhaps the exchange is mutual and the FM are playing a long game too. 

Yes, she's not fully committed yet, and they know it. But they are 100% fanatics themselves, and that's what they expect of her. 'He will take your hopes and dreams, your loves and hates. Those who enter His service must give up all that makes them who they are.'

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Bottom line what Arya did was against their rules and she was not punished for it which only enforces my point that this FM dynamic isn't adding up. Later down the line, they gave her back her Cat of the Canals identity (which was originally used to kill the oathbreaker) to complete yet another task. Rules? What rules?

Well there are rules. Jaquen was ready to die when Arya named him. And there's this: 'Remain if you will, but know we shall require your obedience. At all times and in all things. If you cannot obey, you must depart.'

So, either all trainees are allowed to make mistakes, even willful mistakes, or Arya is a special case they want to persevere with. She is a special case. She's a child prodigy. The Ghost of HH said she smelled of death even more than Beric did - it is possible, even likely that she has the favour of the Many Faced God, in whatever form that takes.

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Judging. That's something Arya feels fundamentally entitled to, it's in her nature. The Kindly Man compares Arya's behaviour to that of a God who passes judgement. It's no different to a King on earth who does the same.

So she and the FM are in fundamental disagreement. I don't know what happens next. I suppose the FM can't kill her until their god gives them the go-ahead.

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Arya would do well to expand her rather black & white views on the world. But that comes with her oncoming maturity and hopefully new experiences and lessons along the way.

Agree. Something needs to happen to free her from the current trajectory. Might not happen for a long time though, because these skills are going to be very, very useful.

[Moiraine Sedai]

Arya may be gray at the moment but she is headed towards the black.  She could remain gray and still be a villain.  Darth Vader danced from gray to black and then to gray.  DV is considered by many to be a cool villain.  I do not think Arya will ever be cool to me but she can still be a villain.

[TheLastWolf]

16 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Darth Vader danced from gray to black and then to gray.  DV is considered by many to be a cool villain.  I do not think Arya will ever be cool to me but she can still be a villain.

The Darth Vader parallel is more suitable for Lady Stoneheart than Arya. Arya isn't dark yet. Only wishful thinking of Arya dislikers... If I say haters... Unwanted trouble. 

[zandru]

Here's a related question which might improve the level of discussion:

For those of you who think Arya is dark, getting darker, is just plain bad -- what was it that turned you against her? What factors are involved in your (apparent; I don't want to judge) dislike of this character?

[TheLastWolf]

Just now, zandru said:

Here's a related question which might improve the level of discussion:

For those of you who think Arya is dark, getting darker, is just plain bad -- what was it that turned you against her? What factors are involved in your (apparent; I don't want to judge) dislike of this character?

Tag a few of those. 

[R2D]

The contrast between Arya and Sansa is very interesting. 

Arya is empathetic but also has no problem killing even innocents.

Sansa is self centered but not violent at all.

[Nevets]

54 minutes ago, zandru said:

Here's a related question which might improve the level of discussion:

For those of you who think Arya is dark, getting darker, is just plain bad -- what was it that turned you against her? What factors are involved in your (apparent; I don't want to judge) dislike of this character?

I like Arya very much; she is one of my favorite characters.  But I am unhappy with her current trajectory, which is why I have said that she is getting darker.  Even so, she is not beyond medium gray.

My biggest concern is her increasing willingness to kill people.   I do not believe that it should be easy to be willing to take someone's life, and I think it is getting too easy for Arya.  She has gone from killing out of necessity to killing people because she dislikes their previous actions (i.e., revenge).

I am not a fan of vigilantism although I can understand its appeal in a place like Westeros.   However I would much rather it be done by a grownup who knows what they're doing instead of a child whose decision making process is undeveloped and suspect.  I also don't believe that easy killing is good for a child's psyche. 

I also don't like her affiliation with the Faceless Men.  Arya is desperate for a pack to belong to, and the FM are using this to manipulate her.  They may pretend to give her alternatives, but know these won't appeal to her.  

I think in the end she will come out OK, largely because GRRM likes her, but it will be a rough ride.

[Rose of Red Lake]

On 7/26/2020 at 8:24 AM, Victor Newman said:

Arya Stoneheart.  I can see that happening.  

Her heart is described as missing, hollow, or dark - not made of stone. The hollowness she feels comes out when she feels disconnected with her family and with home. This is something that can be remedied. There will probably always be a darkness in her but I agree with the people who say that it's more of a darkness of PTSD and loss of guidance/grounding. 

Dany is the one who is warned about her heart turning to stone.

[zandru]

2 hours ago, R2D said:

Arya is empathetic but also has no problem killing even innocents.

Sansa is self centered but not violent at all.

Well, I would dispute the idea that Arya has been killing "innocents". I agree that Arya is empathetic; she also is sort of democratic, unlike Sansa. Arya knows everybody's names and their good and bad points, from shop owners to captains to courtesans to most of Gregor's "rats." By understanding others, she can protect herself and achieve her goals. This impresses me. Arya takes action, whether it's protecting her "pack" or herself.

I can't help but compare her to Sansa, who as you say, is not violent. In actual fact, Sansa is remarkably passive, taking almost no action at all, just letting things happen to herself and to others, few of whom she bothers to know, even to learn their names. Sansa is very class-conscious: Only Sansa's peers and "betters" are worthy of her attention.

It's like the girls were designed to be near-exact opposites. Meanwhile, back in the Riverlands, Lady Catelyn, who had started out so much like Sansa, has died and become a cariacature of Arya as Lady Stoneheart. It's particularly ironic, because it was Arya herself, as Nymeria, who pulled the swollen corpse from the Trident and left it where Beric Dondarion could imbue it with the breath of life.

Arya awoke after her wolf dream, with the knowledge and final acceptance that her mother was indeed dead. But because of Arya/Nymeria, Lady Cat walks again!

I hope there will be some strategic meetings between all these long-separated, much changed characters!

 

[HoodedCrow]

Sansa has been learning guile. She has been learning to be a bastard, and a perjurer. She is forgetting who she was, and has lost her Wolf, but dyeing her hair and faking keeps her busy. Arya has been learning skills. Arya is grey( nuance) in a House of Black and White. She has had a lot of practice in withstanding norms. Good point about Nymeria! So she rescued her Mom, only to have her turn into Stoneheart. She rescued Biter, but also Gendry. 

[Jeeves]

Arya is most definitely not a Righteous Avenger.  The Insurance Underwriter and Dareon have done nothing to hurt or to threaten her.  She murdered the Underwriter in order to get what she wanted.  She did it for a very selfish personal reason.  I would also not call her a Mindless Psychopath.  But Arya is a very sick and crazy murderer.   She is right up there with Michael Myers and Norman Bates.  There is a sick method to her madness.  She wants to kill the people who fought against her family and friends during war.  What Arya does is not justice but only revenge.  Her mind is twisted with hate and anger.  Maybe she doesn't think she feels anything but she is twisted by anger.  There is deep anger there even if it is hidden from her pov.  

 

[zandru]

29 minutes ago, Jeeves said:

The Insurance Underwriter and Dareon have done nothing to hurt or to threaten her. 

There we are, again with the "they didn't hurt Arya PERSONALLY". Is there a point? When, in the 21st century, a police officer arrests a suspect, must the suspect have committed a crime against the officer? Does the judge and possibly jury who weigh the evidence and judge the suspect have each of them to have been "harmed" by him? Should Arya be good with Raff the Sisterman (specifically from Sweet Sister) because he didn't stab her, he killed Lommy Greenhands, so it's all good?

Now, you do have a point, as did the Kindly Man, about Arya making herself judge and executioner. However, he has not ever told her that she can want justice ONLY for those who have personally harmed HER. The whole House of Black & White order is based on a larger concept of justice than mere personal affront.

[Hodor the Articulate]

11 hours ago, SilverFox2311 said:

Well to begin with Arya has killed people at a very young age and that's gonna leave a mark. Also Arya had once told she didn't feel anything when she killed which means she's repressing her emotions and that's not good at all. Now with Sansa, she's learning the art of cunningness from Littlefinger and she has sometimes questioned herself if what she's doing is right. 

Is this the same Sansa that refuses to process LF murdering Jon Arryn and Lysa and now SW (with her direct involvement too!)? Both her and Arya are experiencing similar arcs, where they're learning to read and manipulate and kill people while suppressing their true identities. The Arya and Sansa that are tucked away in a little corner of their minds pops up to say hello once in a while though, and are ready to take over over again once a path to safety opens up. Either they both come out of this traumatised into psychopathy or neither of them are.

I'm confident it's the latter. In the ASOIAF world, boys go off to war. Bran is brought to witness a beheading at age 9(?) and is expected not to balk. Unsullied were trained from childhood to kill without emotion. Do those things leave a mark on them? Sure, but they haven't all become "mindless psycho killers".

[Hodor the Articulate]

3 hours ago, zandru said:

Now, you do have a point, as did the Kindly Man, about Arya making herself judge and executioner. However, he has not ever told her that she can want justice ONLY for those who have personally harmed HER. The whole House of Black & White order is based on a larger concept of justice than mere personal affront.

Isn't the Daeron incident proof that Arya is still Arya? She kills him for being a NW deserter, same as her father would have. It doesn't point to Arya being an indiscriminate killer, any more than Ned executing Gared points to him being one.

[zandru]

4 minutes ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

In the ASOIAF world, boys go off to war. Bran is brought to witness a beheading at age 9(?) and is expected not to balk

I believe Bran was six, "almost a man grown". Here in the West, in the last century, we've encouraged long, often endless, childhood. It was not always thus!

You make some great points. Although it's not possible to read ASOIAF without bringing in our 21st (or 20th) century beliefs, if we want to understand the society enough to understand and maybe empathize with the characters, we have to recognize how things were different nearly 1000 years ago (and it's a in different world, too). Too often, folks inhale fantasy and have no problem, indeed are thrilled, with the kings and queens, lords and ladies, and of course the bold knights! Of course, this is wrong, as wrong as slavery and rape and using daughters as coin to buy alliances.

So are extrajudicial killings. But consider what a farce the "justice" system is in Westeros.

[Nevets]

4 hours ago, zandru said:

There we are, again with the "they didn't hurt Arya PERSONALLY". Is there a point? When, in the 21st century, a police officer arrests a suspect, must the suspect have committed a crime against the officer? Does the judge and possibly jury who weigh the evidence and judge the suspect have each of them to have been "harmed" by him? Should Arya be good with Raff the Sisterman (specifically from Sweet Sister) because he didn't stab her, he killed Lommy Greenhands, so it's all good?

Now, you do have a point, as did the Kindly Man, about Arya making herself judge and executioner. However, he has not ever told her that she can want justice ONLY for those who have personally harmed HER. The whole House of Black & White order is based on a larger concept of justice than mere personal affront.

Arya is not a police officer, nor a judge, nor a jury.  And I'm not sure a traumatized 11 year old is really the best person to be deciding this stuff either.

I think the Faceless Men are more interested in gold than in justice,, although it is possible that justice plays some part in their decisions, but by no means the primary, or even a major, one.

1 hour ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Isn't the Daeron incident proof that Arya is still Arya? She kills him for being a NW deserter, same as her father would have. It doesn't point to Arya being an indiscriminate killer, any more than Ned executing Gared points to him being one.

Ned is the Lord of Winterfell.  It is his duty to execute Gared once he is presented to him and determined to be guilty.  Arya is not Lord of Winterfell, and it is not her duty, responsibility, or even her right to do judge Dareon, much less execute (murder) him

 

1 hour ago, zandru said:

I believe Bran was six, "almost a man grown". Here in the West, in the last century, we've encouraged long, often endless, childhood. It was not always thus!

Arya is 11, still a child even by Westeros standards.  And Bran was only witnessing a man's death, not carrying it out.  By the way, he is 7, almost 8.

 

[Roswell]

3 hours ago, Nevets said:

I think the Faceless Men are more interested in gold than in justice,, although it is possible that justice plays some part in their decisions, but by no means the primary, or even a major, one.

AGREE

[Roswell]

You can't do what Arya does and not suffer mental and emotional trauma.  She is killing people but she murders a little bit of her own humanity as well as her sanity with each assassination.  Getting even is expected from a woman in her station.  The nobles are guilty of the sin of pride.  Their devotion to family most often end up causing a lot of harm.  Arya is not alone in this.  It is just most people would hold the hate but never do anything about it.  Arya is one of the few who do carry out her hate and puts into action.  She is not a villain but don't believe for a minute that she's a hero.  She is no hero.