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Arya Stark: Mindless Psycho Killer or Righteous Avenger?


TheLastWolf

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2 minutes ago, Roswell said:

You can't do what Arya does and not suffer mental and emotional trauma.  She is killing people but she murders a little bit of her own humanity as well as her sanity with each assassination.  Getting even is expected from a woman in her station.  The nobles are guilty of the sin of pride.  Their devotion to family most often end up causing a lot of harm.  Arya is not alone in this.  It is just most people would hold the hate but never do anything about it.  Arya is one of the few who do carry out her hate and puts into action.  She is not a villain but don't believe for a minute that she's a hero.  She is no hero. 

So all the people who kill in war and perform executions suffer mental and emotional trauma and have murdered their own humanity? Given that Ned killed people in two wars and performed executions regularly for years, that would mean he was suffering from extreme mental illness and had no humanity left in him at all. But we know that's not true. Arya's actions are emulating the values of her society, so they wouldn't impact her the same way it would impact someone making the same choices in a society that didn't glorify murder in war and normalize executions.

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3 hours ago, Nevets said:

think the Faceless Men are more interested in gold than in justice,, although it is possible that justice plays some part in their decisions, but by no means the primary, or even a major, one.

Only thing I :agree:with

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36 minutes ago, Wintersshewolf said:

So all the people who kill in war and perform executions suffer mental and emotional trauma and have murdered their own humanity? Given that Ned killed people in two wars and performed executions regularly for years, that would mean he was suffering from extreme mental illness and had no humanity left in him at all. But we know that's not true. Arya's actions are emulating the values of her society, so they wouldn't impact her the same way it would impact someone making the same choices in a society that didn't glorify murder in war and normalize executions.

Arya is a child, and killing people is not going to be good for a child.  And any killing by Ned was done in a legal and accepted setting. 

And no, I don't think it's common in Westeros, either.  The only character I can think of that has killed at around that age is Sandor Clegane, and he is hardly an endorsement.  And when Arya asked Edric Dayne if he had ever killed anyone, he seemed quite shocked at the idea.  And he had been in battle!

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2 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Arya is a child, and killing people is not going to be good for a child.  And any killing by Ned was done in a legal and accepted setting. 

And no, I don't think it's common in Westeros, either.  The only character I can think of that has killed at around that age is Sandor Clegane, and he is hardly an endorsement.  And when Arya asked Edric Dayne if he had ever killed anyone, he seemed quite shocked at the idea.  And he had been in battle!

So committing murder when it's "legal and accepted" doesn't have an impact on the mental state or on a person's humanity, but the same act does if it's dubious whether it's legal or not? It wasn't legal for Ned to revolt against Aerys, so every murder he committed during Robert's Rebellion was illegal. Does that impact his mental state or humanity while the murders he committed in the Greyjoy Rebellion are fine since the king said it was legal? Since Joffrey approved of his grandfather terrorizing the Riverlands, does that mean the murders and rapes committed there were fine and the mental state of the men committing those crimes are alright since the king has deemed it legal? This line of reasoning just doesn't add up.

As for age, kids are taught about and exposed to murder pretty young. That's why we have Sansa and Jeyne casually discussing where the Mountain's severed head should be placed in AGOT. That's why Jon and Robb are veteran execution attendees at 14 while Bran is brought in at 7. Squires are brought to war as children. Podrick killed in battle at 12 while Edric Dayne was in danger of being killed or having to kill at the same age. Murder is a common part of life in Westeros, so it won't have the same impact it would on a modern child of the same age. 

Given the culture Arya is raised in, killing bad people is normal and accepted, as is killing people in war. Each of the people she has killed committed a crime, threatened her survival, or did harm to others. If Arya starts killing innocent people at random, then I will be worried about her humanity. As it stands, she does worry about what killing people means about her, seeing herself as an adult because of it and worrying that her family won't want her anymore outside of Jon. If anything, that self reflection shows that she isn't even close to too far gone. Compare that to the characters who don't have a second thought about the murders they've committed, meaning that they were certain they were right, regardless of how little they knew about the person whose life they took.

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44 minutes ago, Wintersshewolf said:

So all the people who kill in war and perform executions suffer mental and emotional trauma and have murdered their own humanity? Given that Ned killed people in two wars and performed executions regularly for years, that would mean he was suffering from extreme mental illness and had no humanity left in him at all. But we know that's not true. Arya's actions are emulating the values of her society, so they wouldn't impact her the same way it would impact someone making the same choices in a society that didn't glorify murder in war and normalize executions.

You make a fine point but according to her haters, this is a special affliction we can only associate with Arya. Everyone else is just fine. @zandru pointed out a 6 year old Bran is judged ready and old enough to start watching his dad chop men's heads off. Absolutely normal for little Bran! Any lasting mental damage? Of course not. He's not Arya.

 

 

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9 hours ago, Nevets said:

I think the Faceless Men are more interested in gold than in justice,, although it is possible that justice plays some part in their decisions, but by no means the primary, or even a major, one.

Still too generous. The FM don't do justice at all. It is actually sinful to do so. 'We kill men, but we do not presume to judge them.'

  1. Deciding who lives and who dies is the sole privilege of the god. 'When you slew the singer, you took god's powers on yourself.'
  2. The FM give the gift to good and bad people equally. 'The-Many-Faced God does not weigh men's souls, however. He gives his gift to the best of men as he gives it to the worst.'
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11 hours ago, Nevets said:

Arya is not a police officer, nor a judge, nor a jury.  And I'm not sure a traumatized 11 year old is really the best person to be deciding this stuff either.

Seriously? In Westeros, these offices are not as societally well defined, and in fact, exist primarily in the bigger cities. Where corruption generally reigns. Out in the countryside, people are largely on their own, and as a presumptive Lady Stark, Arya would have been raised with the idea that she was a leader, someone with the authority and capability to enforce the King's Justice.

And, for what it's worth, probably no one person is perfect as a judge. But you work with what you've got. If not Arya, then who? Her attempts to do justice were more a reflection of her sense of responsibility.

11 hours ago, Nevets said:

I think the Faceless Men are more interested in gold than in justice,,

What's your evidence for this? Their allegedly high fees? I took their sliding fee structure to be meant as a measure of the sincerity of the petitioner. How important is this killing to him/her? And not merely a way of raking in the gold. But where is the evidence in the text that the Faceless Man Society is just in it for the money? I didn't see any?

Also, the evidence for their "lying"? If it's there, I've missed it.

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20 hours ago, R2D said:

The contrast between Arya and Sansa is very interesting. 

Arya is empathetic but also has no problem killing even innocents.

Sansa is self centered but not violent at all.

:lmao:Funniest post of the day. Previous day in fact. 

16 hours ago, Jeeves said:

But Arya is a very sick and crazy murderer.   She is right up there with Michael Myers and Norman Bates.  There is a sick method to her madness

16 hours ago, Jeeves said:

Arya is most definitely not a Righteous Avenger.  The Insurance Underwriter and Dareon have done nothing to hurt or to threaten her. 

Not again!!!! Please read previous posts. 

And Norman Bates?!?! Damn, that is unveiled hatred. 

16 hours ago, Jeeves said:

She wants to kill the people who fought against her family and friends during war. 

Like they were Mother Teresa or what!? 

16 hours ago, Jeeves said:

There is deep anger there even if it is hidden from her pov.  

Maybe you can enlighten us as to how you found out which is hidden from POV. Mindread GRRM's brain?? 

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9 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Bran went to the execution and Arya did not, because it was not her role.

And she's a child.

Arya isn't hung up on sexually-defined roles like her sister Sansa. If she sees injustice and can do something about it, she will. She won't wait for a knight in shining armor to ride up.

Arya's just a child? Even Bran, when he was 8, considered himself "almost a man grown". In Westeros, a girl becomes a woman at first menses, maybe 12 years of age. (Arya may not hit that until she's 14 or 15, given her leanness.) We need to wrap our heads around the concept that, in the medieval society of Westeros, children grow up faster. Joffrey is a ruling (and misruling) king at what, 13? Robb is leading troops into battle at 15. Jon is maybe 16 when he becomes Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. People don't enjoy the endless childhood of some of the Western nations, the US in particular.

And, as I keep repeating, Arya puts her principles into action. It's not her way to either sit around hand-wringing that "somebody ought to do something" or just turning her head and letting the evil proceed. This, in fact, is one of the things that so many of us love her for.

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10 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Seriously, you are not serious here, @zandru

Bran went to the execution and Arya did not, because it was not her role.

And she's a child.

Where did you get that from? There’s no scene I can recall where Arya wants to go along and isn’t allowed to “because it was not her role”. At least not in the books. 
Also, I disagree w/ the notion that people should just stick to their roles in life, both in universe and irl. 

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Okay. I've seen lots of PsychoKiller Arya posts which make all kinds of lavish assertions of her insanity and criminality. Strangely, no actual evidence is presented. It's all just rage and hate. When specific events are referenced, the interpretations never seem to correlate with the story.

I reluctantly conclude that there are those among us who cannot accept, maybe cannot imagine, a character with both good and bad points, or for that matter, an organization like the Faceless Men that may not be an outlandish Conspiracy (theory).

I'm bowing out, as I think this topic has played out. Thanks to all contributors!

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7 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Bran went to the execution and Arya did not, because it was not her role.

This is probably the actual heart of the issue when it comes to vilifying Arya. She is a girl who doesn't fit the role her society has tried to groom her for and even modern readers seem to interpret that as the highest sin of all. If Arya did exactly the same things as she does in the books but was male, there would be no one trying to vilify her anymore than they might Robb or Jon, who have far higher kill counts and are less concerned with the guilt of all the people they're killing. It's not a girl's role to step out of the role men decided she should force herself to fit into.

And I'm not saying anyone should vilify Robb or Jon. Just using them as an example to make a point.

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7 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Seriously, you are not serious here, @zandru

Bran went to the execution and Arya did not, because it was not her role.

And she's a child.

And Arya is not the lord of Winterfell.  The Starks are no longer in power.  Their rights have been removed.  Arya Stark lost any authority she might have had.  She did not have the right to kill Dareon.  

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Just now, Wintersshewolf said:

This is probably the actual heart of the issue when it comes to vilifying Arya. She is a girl who doesn't fit the role her society has tried to groom her for and even modern readers seem to interpret that as the highest sin of all. If Arya did exactly the same things as she does in the books but was male, there would be no one trying to vilify her anymore than they might Robb or Jon, who have far higher kill counts and are less concerned with the guilt of all the people they're killing. It's not a girl's role to step out of the role men decided she should force herself to fit into.

And I'm not saying anyone should vilify Robb or Jon. Just using them as an example to make a point.

It may be an issue of gender for some Anti-Arya folks.  I do not have a problem with her gender.  I also condemn Jon for killing Janos Slynt.  

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On 7/27/2020 at 6:24 PM, Jeeves said:

Arya is most definitely not a Righteous Avenger.  The Insurance Underwriter and Dareon have done nothing to hurt or to threaten her.  She murdered the Underwriter in order to get what she wanted.  She did it for a very selfish personal reason.  I would also not call her a Mindless Psychopath.  But Arya is a very sick and crazy murderer.   She is right up there with Michael Myers and Norman Bates.  There is a sick method to her madness.  She wants to kill the people who fought against her family and friends during war.  What Arya does is not justice but only revenge.  Her mind is twisted with hate and anger.  Maybe she doesn't think she feels anything but she is twisted by anger.  There is deep anger there even if it is hidden from her pov.  

 

She is not on the extreme ends.  Somewhere in the middle but closer to black.  

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35 minutes ago, Wintersshewolf said:

This is probably the actual heart of the issue when it comes to vilifying Arya. She is a girl who doesn't fit the role her society has tried to groom her for and even modern readers seem to interpret that as the highest sin of all. If Arya did exactly the same things as she does in the books but was male, there would be no one trying to vilify her anymore than they might Robb or Jon, who have far higher kill counts and are less concerned with the guilt of all the people they're killing. It's not a girl's role to step out of the role men decided she should force herself to fit into.

And I'm not saying anyone should vilify Robb or Jon. Just using them as an example to make a point.

Exactly. Would anyone care if, say, Loras executed a NW deserter, even though he's not a lord? Westeros doesn't have an independent and fair judicial system. Justice is what the nobility deems it to be.

And even if that were not the case, lawfulness and sticking to "appropriate" roles does not equate to morality or sanity.

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1 hour ago, Bowen Marsh said:

And Arya is not the lord of Winterfell.  The Starks are no longer in power. ...

Okay, so you're saying that only the Duly Constituted Authorities have the right to note whether somebody is doing wrong? Look, in Westeros and in Braavos, you can't just dial 911 and summon a SWAT team, then let the judicial system do its thing. You can harp all you like on Due Process and Legal Authority, but it's Chinatown, man. And Arya is on her own. She's doing what her education and background has told her is right, and she clearly (read the text) gets little pleasure from it.

Look at the fight at the Inn at the Crossroads, when she stabbed the Tickler to death - and then some. She was furious, and all the pent-up horror of watching him torture one man or woman after another, day after day after day, comes out. Now, some will say, Hey! The Tickler never hurt HER, so she has no reason to kill him! And he's trying to kill Sandor, not Arya, so she's not involved IN ANY WAY! She needs to butt out!

Frankly, there's little that can be said to those people.

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47 minutes ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Exactly. Would anyone care if, say, Loras executed a NW deserter, even though he's not a lord? Westeros doesn't have an independent and fair judicial system. Justice is what the nobility deems it to be.

And even if that were not the case, lawfulness and sticking to "appropriate" roles does not equate to morality or sanity.

Yep. Since Loras murdered  Emmon Cuy and Robar Royce, both of whom were innocent, and there is no discussion on his mental state, we already know that had he extended his murders to a deserter, there would be no critique of him.

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12 hours ago, Wintersshewolf said:

This is probably the actual heart of the issue when it comes to vilifying Arya. She is a girl who doesn't fit the role her society has tried to groom her for and even modern readers seem to interpret that as the highest sin of all. If Arya did exactly the same things as she does in the books but was male, there would be no one trying to vilify her anymore than they might Robb or Jon, who have far higher kill counts and are less concerned with the guilt of all the people they're killing. It's not a girl's role to step out of the role men decided she should force herself to fit into.

And I'm not saying anyone should vilify Robb or Jon. Just using them as an example to make a point.

The post of all posts. Wow! Getting down to the heart of the matter. She's older than Bran but worse of all she's a girl too. 

Quote

And even if that were not the case, lawfulness and sticking to "appropriate" roles does not equate to morality or sanity.

Precisely. 

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