Arya Stark: Mindless Psycho Killer or Righteous Avenger?

[Lord Varys]

3 minutes ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Do you really think Tyrion will be held to account for Shae?  He is the author's favorite character. 

George has gone on record himself, stating that this was his worst act. And he shows that by giving us glimpses of her long agony in ADwD when Tyrion's remembers it.

I'm not saying anyone is going to avenge Shae or anything - but there is this element of karmic justice I mentioned. Tyrion may survive the series, but he is going to pay.

Being George's favorite might certainly ensure Tyrion sticks around for a long time - but that's not going to give him a free pass.

3 minutes ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

George wanted an extreme if uncomfortable character in Arya.  He will stay the course (in my humble opinion) and proceed to make her kill a lot of people. 

Of course. Any series where her story would go into a completely different direction in the next couple of chapters would be a caricature of itself. And George said TWoW is going to be the darkest book so far - statements like that don't bode well for people who are already at very dark places in the beginning of the book. It is going to get worse for all the characters, but especially those who are already not exactly at a nice place.

The one thing that makes sense for me for Arya's character is if she becomes a professional assassin in service of a good cause. Not revenge nonsense, but a power for change. She could be another Varys, say, a person using ugly methods to try to accomplish something good.

I still think the Faceless Men are going to send her after Dany and the dragons once Jaqen brings that book back from the Citadel, and then she will have to decide whether it is good or bad to kill Daenerys. That way she could reenter the story in a meaningful way.

[zandru]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

once Jaqen brings that book back from the Citadel

Okay, you've lost me. Tell me more about "that book." I realize Jaqen is at the Citadel for some purpose, and cultivated Stupid Pate in order to get a master key (maester key?) that would unlock any door. Also, that he's "matriculated" under Marwin the Mage. However, I've missed the part about a particular book.

Your other observations, by the way, sound pretty reasonable. (And I'm not going to pick at the few nits...) I just hope we get to read The Winds of Winter in our lifetimes. Regardless of how dark it may be.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, zandru said:

Okay, you've lost me. Tell me more about "that book." I realize Jaqen is at the Citadel for some purpose, and cultivated Stupid Pate in order to get a master key (maester key?) that would unlock any door. Also, that he's "matriculated" under Marwin the Mage. However, I've missed the part about a particular book.

Oh, that is not that difficult. Remember that the Jaqen fellow wanted an archmaester key and got one via Pate before he killed and replaced him?

That means he wants something from this vault that can only be opened with an archmaester key.

Now, we do know that forbidden books are hidden in those vaults, indicating what Jaqen-Pate wants is such a book ... and the only book hidden by the archmaesters in this fashion we know by name so far is the one mentioned by Tyrion in ADwD - namely, the tome called 'Blood and Fire' or sometimes also 'The Death of Dragons'.

The idea is that Jaqen-Pate is after that particular book, that it contains knowledge how to kill dragons via poison or another method that is more likely to be successful than a direct approach (it would also be the book the maesters used when/if they poisoned some of the last dragons during the reign of Aegon III), that Jaqen-Pate steals the book and delivers it to Braavos in TWoW, and that Arya's first mission as a fullblown Faceless Girl will be the infiltration of Dany's movement and the eventual assassination of Daenerys and her dragons - possibly/likely with Jaqen accompanying her to Vaes Dothrak/Slaver's Bay/wherever she will be at that point.

Arya's great conflict there will be whether to go through with that ... or turn against Jaqen, killing him, because she understand that Dany isn't the enemy, her movement is good or at least better than the hypocrisy of the Faceless Men. After all, Jaqen's Oldtown mission goes back to AGoT or earlier, since he was on the way to that place, presumably, when he somehow ended up in a black cell - meaning that his mission may actually be a mission he undertakes on behalf of the House of Black and White who foresaw the return of the dragons somehow and decided they and Braavos would not suffer that - which would be enourmously hypocritical on their part if they decided they want to put down a dragonlord who wants to abolish slavery. Even more so after she finally learns the true story about the Doom of Valyria where the Faceless Men apparently thought killing millions or billions of people in a huge explosion was a great thing to do. I don't think she is ever going to agree with such an approach. Subsequently Arya could join Dany's movement either as Arya of House Stark or incognito in a Faceless Girl disguise.

In such a capacity her unique skills could really make a difference and become an asset in the coming wars - by both advising a person in power as well as killing people who oppose them.

If Arya just continued to go through with her list - or worse still: returned to Winterfell/the North for some reason, she would effectively have no big impact on the story, especially since the North/Wall will be the first who have to seriously deal with the Others, even before the Wall falls. There won't be any use for a political assassin there.

I've a lot of trouble predicting a future story for Arya, and that's the best (and honestly: only) thing I could come up that makes sense to me. There we could have potential for conflict both an internal and external level, a real conflict of interests between the Faceless Men agenda and Arya Stark as a person. A return to Westeros for a killing spree doesn't make much sense to me.

1 hour ago, zandru said:

Your other observations, by the way, sound pretty reasonable. (And I'm not going to pick at the few nits...) I just hope we get to read The Winds of Winter in our lifetimes. Regardless of how dark it may be.

Oh, I'm sure we are going to read at least that one.

[Nevets]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I've a lot of trouble predicting a future story for Arya, and that's the best (and honestly: only) thing I could come up that makes sense to me.

 

We agree on this much, at least, that her story is hard to figure out.  I don't believe that she will ever become an assassin, or even that the FM (or George) are intent on her becoming one.  If so, they are taking their sweet time about it.  She knows no more about killing people now than when she arrived in Braavos.  She knows a little about poisons, but mostly what they do, not how to administer them.  She could probably figure out whether someone is a poison victim, but I don't think she could make them one.

What training she has gotten is more the sort of thing I would expect for an undercover spy or detective, not an assassin.  I think they intend either for her to be an agent/helper for them in Westeros, or possibly some sort of investigator.  They have to do their due diligence on their contracts, and I wouldn't be surprised if they have a sideline in gathering information.

If that is the case, her first assignment could be to join Daenerys and find out what she is up to.  Braavos likely knows less about her than they would like, and with her dragons and her interest in destroying slavery, they would likely be interesting in finding out as much as they can about her.  But that is only if they decide to send her on a mission.

She could return to Westeros.  She has friends and contacts there,, not to mention a big huge wolf pack.  The wolf pack, in particular, could be useful in fighting the Others, and I'm sure George can find other ways for her to be useful.

As to her killings, I have already said that I am troubled by her actions in Braavos, especially Dareon.   I give her a pass on acts in Westeros, as I consider them all to be killings of necessity.  Even the guard at Harrenhal.  His death was necessary for her escape.  And considsering subsequent events there, it is just as well she did escape.

[Lord Varys]

57 minutes ago, Nevets said:

We agree on this much, at least, that her story is hard to figure out.  I don't believe that she will ever become an assassin, or even that the FM (or George) are intent on her becoming one.  If so, they are taking their sweet time about it.  She knows no more about killing people now than when she arrived in Braavos.  She knows a little about poisons, but mostly what they do, not how to administer them.  She could probably figure out whether someone is a poison victim, but I don't think she could make them one.

Oh, but her training is far from done now, is it? She doesn't know the full story of the Faceless Men yet, nor how to carve off faces and wear them. She has to learn all that yet. And to be sure, she already was a natural born killer when she got to Braavos. That is why they didn't throw her out.

57 minutes ago, Nevets said:

What training she has gotten is more the sort of thing I would expect for an undercover spy or detective, not an assassin.  I think they intend either for her to be an agent/helper for them in Westeros, or possibly some sort of investigator.  They have to do their due diligence on their contracts, and I wouldn't be surprised if they have a sideline in gathering information.#

The Faceless Men are assassins who infiltrate and then kill you so ingeniously that people interpret it as a natural death/accident. That is their modus operandi, and Arya is learning that.

Her own, let's call it butchery, isn't how they operate, and we can expect them to teach her that lesson after the way she dealt with Raff.

57 minutes ago, Nevets said:

If that is the case, her first assignment could be to join Daenerys and find out what she is up to.  Braavos likely knows less about her than they would like, and with her dragons and her interest in destroying slavery, they would likely be interesting in finding out as much as they can about her.  But that is only if they decide to send her on a mission.

Oh, they will send her out to kill Dany and/or the dragons. That is why they want that book. The only question is whether that's their own game or whether some third power hired them all the way back in AGoT or earlier to eventually kill the dragons. I'd not know who the hell that person could have been, but Jaqen wants the book, and they will use that book to kill dragons the way the Citadel supposedly killed them back in the day.

57 minutes ago, Nevets said:

She could return to Westeros.  She has friends and contacts there,, not to mention a big huge wolf pack.  The wolf pack, in particular, could be useful in fighting the Others, and I'm sure George can find other ways for her to be useful.

Yeah, for the wights those wolves could be something. And George has said they are going to come back big time eventually. But they are not needed and kind of superficial to deal with Freys and Lannisters - the Riverlanders will be able to do that all by themselves (and it will be more fun that way), especially considering that Lady Stoneheart is going to help them.

Also, you have to keep in mind that Arya doesn't have to be physically close to Nymeria to possess her. She is a skinchanger, and as her powers grow she will be able to reach her from Asshai if she were to end up there (which she isn't).

I can see them making some appearance to ensure that some battle in the Riverlands goes the way Arya/'the good guys' want it to go - say, if there were some sort of battle in the future between some Lannisters and Aegon's or Dany's people - but I doubt they will really play a great role before the grand finale.

Although, now that I'm think of it - perhaps they will show up in the Prologue if it depicts an outlaw attack on Forley Prester and his men, preventing them from murdering Jeyne and Edmure. But that would mean they would have to be close to the hunting grounds of the wolves.

57 minutes ago, Nevets said:

As to her killings, I have already said that I am troubled by her actions in Braavos, especially Dareon.   I give her a pass on acts in Westeros, as I consider them all to be killings of necessity.  Even the guard at Harrenhal.  His death was necessary for her escape.  And considsering subsequent events there, it is just as well she did escape.

Ah, well, that man was a loyal Northman, and Arya Stark truly had as much right to kill as I have going around killing innocent people who I think might do something evil in the future. I mean, seriously, if Roose Bolton may have known he had Arya Stark there there may have been no Red Wedding. Robb could have been so happy that his sister was still alive that he may have set aside Jeyne in favor of the Frey girl he was supposed to marry if the Freys had restored her to them - not to mention that they could have gone through with the Arya-Elmar match.

This idea that Arya's fear from a post-Bolton regime at Harrenhal justifies this murder is just wrong. And if you allow her fears to be informed or mature enough that her actions are okay, then her not getting it - her failing to use her three dead wisely, her not revealing herself to her brother's men immediately - means she can be blamed for helping to fuck things up for the Starks.

Perhaps Robb wouldn't have married Jeyne if he had known ... just as Cat most certainly wouldn't have let Jaime go.

Also, ever thought what may have happened if Arya Stark had been there when Jaime arrived at Harrenhal?

[TheLastWolf]

10 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Do you really think Tyrion will be held to account for Shae?  He is the author's favorite character. 

Shae deserved it, that lying scheming opportunistic bitch. And don't go all misogyny/chauvinistic over me. It's Westeros that made her a whore and whatever else she was. And Varys too, if she was one of his little birds. @The Lord of the Crossing

[TheLastWolf]

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, that is not that difficult. Remember that the Jaqen fellow wanted an archmaester key and got one via Pate before he killed and replaced him?

That means he wants something from this vault that can only be opened with an archmaester key.

Now, we do know that forbidden books are hidden in those vaults, indicating what Jaqen-Pate wants is such a book ... and the only book hidden by the archmaesters in this fashion we know by name so far is the one mentioned by Tyrion in ADwD - namely, the tome called 'Blood and Fire' or sometimes also 'The Death of Dragons'.

The idea is that Jaqen-Pate is after that particular book, that it contains knowledge how to kill dragons via poison or another method that is more likely to be successful than a direct approach (it would also be the book the maesters used when/if they poisoned some of the last dragons during the reign of Aegon III), that Jaqen-Pate steals the book and delivers it to Braavos in TWoW, and that Arya's first mission as a fullblown Faceless Girl will be the infiltration of Dany's movement and the eventual assassination of Daenerys and her dragons - possibly/likely with Jaqen accompanying her to Vaes Dothrak/Slaver's Bay/wherever she will be at that point.

Arya's great conflict there will be whether to go through with that ... or turn against Jaqen, killing him, because she understand that Dany isn't the enemy, her movement is good or at least better than the hypocrisy of the Faceless Men. After all, Jaqen's Oldtown mission goes back to AGoT or earlier, since he was on the way to that place, presumably, when he somehow ended up in a black cell - meaning that his mission may actually be a mission he undertakes on behalf of the House of Black and White who foresaw the return of the dragons somehow and decided they and Braavos would not suffer that - which would be enourmously hypocritical on their part if they decided they want to put down a dragonlord who wants to abolish slavery. Even more so after she finally learns the true story about the Doom of Valyria where the Faceless Men apparently thought killing millions or billions of people in a huge explosion was a great thing to do. I don't think she is ever going to agree with such an approach. Subsequently Arya could join Dany's movement either as Arya of House Stark or incognito in a Faceless Girl disguise

I agree with the italicized text @Lord Varys but not the the emboldened text. I feel Jaqen is on his own, gone rogue. His actions don't make sense as working for the FM anymore. 

 

Spoiler

have this crackpot theory (that's for you to decide) that Jaqen H'ghar is really Gerion Lannister. Let me explain why before you start cursing me.

 

The Valyrian steel greatsword of House Lannister, Brightroar was lost with Tommen II Lannister when he sailed to the Smoking Sea, to find riches, plunder and the remaining sorcery in the ruins of Valyria, a century after the Doom. The fleet, Tommen and Brightroar never neturned.

 

Now fast forward to 291 A.C. when Gerion Lannister, Tywin's youngest brother and Tyrion's favourite uncle goes on a 'fools' quest to retrieve the sword and find all the riches and remaining sorcery on his ship 'Laughing Lion'. He too was last seen at Old Volantis when half his crew deserted him and he had to buy slaves for oarsmen to row the ship to the Smoking Sea.

 

I think he did find Brightroar ,but also something more that made him ambitious....something about dragons and sorcery. Point to be noted was that his brother Tygett had also spoken about dragons previously...this we know from Tyrion , so it would not be a surprise if another uncle was also interested about it. So then Gerion joins the Faceless Men and hides Brightroar like Arya did Needle to claim it later when the time was right. After training, he took the identity of a Lorathi, Jaqen H'ghar. He must have traveled to King's landing to find out more about his new obsession from all the Targaryenish things Robert hid away after coming to power. But he must have been caught and put in the black cells (we all know Robert's hatred for all things Targaryen) and the rest we know....Yoren....Harrenhal...Arya...new appearance.

 

Then he must have got the dragon egg from Euron for killing Balon Greyjoy... or could've found the hidden dragon egg which Bloodraven took from Butterwell. I incline towards the former theory. Then he must have been the Alchemist who kills Pate and takes over his identity in Oldtown. Now he also has Archmaester Walgrave's key that can open any door in the Citadel... especially a certain hidden door with a certain rare-only-one-in-the-world copy of a certain book about dragons which Tyrion mentions in ADWD.

 

  Quote

"And of course there was even less chance of his coming on the fragmentary, anonymous, blood-soaked tome sometimes called Blood and Fire and sometimes The Death of Dragons, the only surviving copy of which was supposedly hidden away in a locked vault beneath the Citadel."

 

 With the book, Jaqen could hatch the dragon egg....and if my theory is false, then Jaqen must be hired by someone who is Anti-Targaryen and anti-dragon (the grey sheep?)

 

P.S. I think Gerion's bastard daughter Joy Hill (by some common woman called Briony) could also be instrumental in the plot if my theory is somewhat true at least.

 

Oh, I almost forgot that some believe Euron is in cahoots with Jaqen (even if he is Gerion or not) and both betrayed QUAITHE/SHIERA SEASTAR.

 

Edited July 13 by TheLastWolf

Spoiler

have good reason to believe that The Sailor's wife in Braavos is not Tysha like some believe and actually mother to Gerion Lannister's hitherto second unknown baseborn daughter, Lanna.

 

Tysha was not a whore

Tyrion was never a sailor,while Gerion was.

Tysha was just a crofter's daughter. Once she was....sent from Tyrion, she would have either commited suicide,married some fat innkeep and had lotsof kids,or plotted revenge. Why would she go to a strange and unknown place like Braavos when the world she knew was only the westerlands?

The Sailor's wife's daughter has golden hair and is named Lanna (feminine form of Lann ,origin of Lannister) You may argue that it could be Tyrion who's the father, but would Tysha want to keep a name that would remind her of that gruesome past? Moreover I believe that Tyrion's father is Aerys, as Tyrion's different hair color like Valyrians rather than Lannister gold,mismatched eyes,dwarfism and Tywin's telling him that he was no son of his are certain small proofs....but that is a different thread. So it has to be Gerion.

Lanna is 14 while Joy Hill is 12 running(born in 288 A.C.) so some may argue that Gerion sailed for Valyria only in 291 AC. how could he have fathered Lanna before/I say why not? he was a sailor before and my above theory also supports that Braavos is where Gerion went to become a FM in the HOBAW. And maybe entrusted BRIGHTROAR to his whore wife and daughter.

Penny and Groat stayed at Braavos in a whorehouse before the Purple wedding(courtesy LITTLEFINGER) it could even be with Sailor's wife and Lanna. Are these characters players in Littlefinger's game? or is Jaqen/gerion involved? Or Varys and Illyrio too involved(remember how penny and co got the dragon eggs in braavos from the sealord for the eunuch spider and lord cheese?)

 

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, they will send her out to kill Dany and/or the dragons. That is why they want that book. The only question is whether that's their own game or whether some third power hired them all the way back in AGoT or earlier to eventually kill the dragons. I'd not know who the hell that person could have been, but Jaqen wants the book, and they will use that book to kill dragons the way the Citadel supposedly killed them back in the day.

It's Jaqen himself. Own agenda. The book in the Citadel could easily contain info on long lost secrets of hatching dragons. I believe Jaqen killed Balon for Euron's dragon egg

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Ah, well, that man was a loyal Northman,

The same LOYAL NORTHMEN took part in the Red Wedding behalf of the Boltons. 

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

mean, seriously, if Roose Bolton may have known he had Arya Stark there there may have been no Red Wedding

No way. He'd have gone ahead with it as there was more to gain from the Lannister alliance. True Arya is a bonus that is all

[Nevets]

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, but her training is far from done now, is it? She doesn't know the full story of the Faceless Men yet, nor how to carve off faces and wear them. She has to learn all that yet. And to be sure, she already was a natural born killer when she got to Braavos. That is why they didn't throw her out.

Yep, we definitely disagree on a lot.  They've had her for a year, and have done practically nothing.  I don't know how much she will learn, but I doubt that any really good secrets will be taught her.  And there isn't sufficient time left in the story for her to become a decently trained assassin.  If they had started soon after her arrival, maybe.  But not now.

She wasn't a natural born killer.  They had to pressure her to get her to even kill the insurance guy.  And she still has something of a moral compass.  I don't see her killing someone she doesn't regard as either a threat or a wrongdoer.

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The Faceless Men are assassins who infiltrate and then kill you so ingeniously that people interpret it as a natural death/accident. That is their modus operandi, and Arya is learning that.

Her own, let's call it butchery, isn't how they operate, and we can expect them to teach her that lesson after the way she dealt with Raff.

She is also learning how to report and prioritize information, which is not assassin stuff.  And Raff is likely to put her on thin ice.  They will know he is on her list and that it was personal.  It could also cause trouble for those the FM care about.

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, they will send her out to kill Dany and/or the dragons. That is why they want that book. The only question is whether that's their own game or whether some third power hired them all the way back in AGoT or earlier to eventually kill the dragons. I'd not know who the hell that person could have been, but Jaqen wants the book, and they will use that book to kill dragons the way the Citadel supposedly killed them back in the day.

You have got to be kidding me!  No way are they going to send a barely trained 12/13 year-old to kill someone like Daenerys - much less her dragons.  Especially one that they have reason to believe will be unwilling to kill someone she doesn't regard as either a threat or a wrongdoer.  And if they don't know that - they either aren't paying attention or will figure it out soon.

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Ah, well, that man was a loyal Northman, and Arya Stark truly had as much right to kill as I have going around killing innocent people who I think might do something evil in the future. I mean, seriously, if Roose Bolton may have known he had Arya Stark there there may have been no Red Wedding. Robb could have been so happy that his sister was still alive that he may have set aside Jeyne in favor of the Frey girl he was supposed to marry if the Freys had restored her to them - not to mention that they could have gone through with the Arya-Elmar match.

This idea that Arya's fear from a post-Bolton regime at Harrenhal justifies this murder is just wrong. And if you allow her fears to be informed or mature enough that her actions are okay, then her not getting it - her failing to use her three dead wisely, her not revealing herself to her brother's men immediately - means she can be blamed for helping to fuck things up for the Starks.

Perhaps Robb wouldn't have married Jeyne if he had known ... just as Cat most certainly wouldn't have let Jaime go.

Also, ever thought what may have happened if Arya Stark had been there when Jaime arrived at Harrenhal?

She needed to leave, and he was in the way.  I have minimal sympathy for him.  I have also seen speculation that Roose knew who "Nan" really was, or had a strong suspicion.  Given his conversations with Theon about how highborns and peasants talk, he likely knew she was highborn, so figuring she was Arya wouldn't be too much of a stretch.  And if he did know, he would have used her for his own purposes.  By that time, he had already decided to betray Robb.  Duskendale had already been ordered, something he knew Robb would object to and he would have to hide.  Arya distrusted Roose, and with good reason.  By the way, Jeyne was already married by this point.  We know that because Elmar mentions the dissolution of his betrothal earlier in the chapter.

I do believe that Jaqen is at the Citadel searching for information - most likely about dragons.  I don't know if it is specifically to kill them, or just to find out more about them so as to make a more informed decision about Daenerys and her dragons.

[Lord Varys]

7 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Shae deserved it, that lying scheming opportunistic bitch. And don't go all misogyny/chauvinistic over me. It's Westeros that made her a whore and whatever else she was. And Varys too, if she was one of his little birds. @The Lord of the Crossing

That is just nonsense. Shae didn't deserve to be killed, and she didn't deserved to be caught up in the silly games of two highborn perverts like Tyrion and Tywin.

5 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

I agree with the italicized text @Lord Varys but not the the emboldened text. I feel Jaqen is on his own, gone rogue. His actions don't make sense as working for the FM anymore. 

That is very odd considering he gave the iron coin to Arya, indicating that they might see each other again in Braavos. He realized she was Faceless Men material. Also, he makes it clear to Arya he has a job to do when he leaves her in the Riverlands.

5 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

It's Jaqen himself. Own agenda. The book in the Citadel could easily contain info on long lost secrets of hatching dragons. I believe Jaqen killed Balon for Euron's dragon egg

Jaqen doesn't have the time to move to Pyke and Oldtown in the time he has, but more importantly ... it is quite clear that Euron only made his plans, including the one involving him murdering Balon and taking over the islands, after he captured Pyat Pree and his Qartheen warlocks after they left Qarth in persuit of Daenerys.

Whatever job Jaqen has goes back before he ended up in black cell ... or was arranged while he was imprisoned there (although I've no idea who would be behind that then - Varys could do it, I guess, but he would have no motive).

Euron's Faceless Man would have been a different person - and to be clear: we have only Euron's word that he ever had a dragon's egg. That isn't worth anything while we don't have other evidence.

5 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

The same LOYAL NORTHMEN took part in the Red Wedding behalf of the Boltons. 

Later, you cannot judge somebody for something they didn't do yet. Especially if you don't know if that particular guy would have been part of it or not.

5 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

No way. He'd have gone ahead with it as there was more to gain from the Lannister alliance. True Arya is a bonus that is all

Roose made his final decision when he talked with Jaime. And what do you think would have happened if Arya Stark had been there at this point? It is impossible to say, really.

1 hour ago, Nevets said:

She wasn't a natural born killer.  They had to pressure her to get her to even kill the insurance guy.  And she still has something of a moral compass.  I don't see her killing someone she doesn't regard as either a threat or a wrongdoer.

Oh, I meant she is a natural born killer in the way she knows how to kill if she wants to. She has to learn to kill on command, but if you put her together with a person she wants to waste she knows how to do that. And one assumes the Faceless Men know that.

1 hour ago, Nevets said:

She is also learning how to report and prioritize information, which is not assassin stuff.  And Raff is likely to put her on thin ice.  They will know he is on her list and that it was personal.  It could also cause trouble for those the FM care about.

It was pretty good how she dealt with Raff. The mistake she made from their point of view, one imagines, is that she killed him in a way that makes it evident that he was murdered ... if the corpse is ever discovered.

And of course the Faceless Men are all about information. They are magical assassins who might not only kill people but also gather information for the rulers of Braavos (which they themselves might be to a good degree).

1 hour ago, Nevets said:

You have got to be kidding me!  No way are they going to send a barely trained 12/13 year-old to kill someone like Daenerys - much less her dragons.  Especially one that they have reason to believe will be unwilling to kill someone she doesn't regard as either a threat or a wrongdoer.  And if they don't know that - they either aren't paying attention or will figure it out soon.

That is why I said they might send Jaqen along with her. I expect the other Faceless Men to go on a killing spree for Stannis in the wake of the deal he made with the Iron Bank. They will have to ensure that their investment is going to come back with interest ... meaning Stannis' enemies have to die.

1 hour ago, Nevets said:

She needed to leave, and he was in the way.  I have minimal sympathy for him.  I have also seen speculation that Roose knew who "Nan" really was, or had a strong suspicion.  Given his conversations with Theon about how highborns and peasants talk, he likely knew she was highborn, so figuring she was Arya wouldn't be too much of a stretch.  And if he did know, he would have used her for his own purposes.  By that time, he had already decided to betray Robb.  Duskendale had already been ordered, something he knew Robb would object to and he would have to hide.  Arya distrusted Roose, and with good reason.  By the way, Jeyne was already married by this point.  We know that because Elmar mentions the dissolution of his betrothal earlier in the chapter.

I meant that Arya should have revealed herself when Roose took Harrenhal, not only around the time she ran away. And he didn't know who she was. Else he wouldn't have treated her the way he did.

1 hour ago, Nevets said:

I do believe that Jaqen is at the Citadel searching for information - most likely about dragons.  I don't know if it is specifically to kill them, or just to find out more about them so as to make a more informed decision about Daenerys and her dragons.

The Braavosi do loathe dragons, as shown by Tycho Nestoris in ADwD. They will only make one decision about them ... kill them.

[TheLastWolf]

10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

6 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

I agree with the italicized text @Lord Varys but not the the emboldened text. I feel Jaqen is on his own, gone rogue. His actions don't make sense as working for the FM anymore. 

That is very odd considering he gave the iron coin to Arya, indicating that they might see each other again in Braavos. He realized she was Faceless Men material. Also, he makes it clear to Arya he has a job to do when he leaves her in the Riverlands.

Quote

It's Jaqen himself. Own agenda. The book in the Citadel could easily contain info on long lost secrets of hatching dragons. I believe Jaqen killed Balon for Euron's dragon egg

Jaqen doesn't have the time to move to Pyke and Oldtown in the time he has, but more importantly ... it is quite clear that Euron only made his plans, including the one involving him murdering Balon and taking over the islands, after he captured Pyat Pree and his Qartheen warlocks after they left Qarth in persuit of Daenerys.

Whatever job Jaqen has goes back before he ended up in black cell ... or was arranged while he was imprisoned there (although I've no idea who would be behind that then - Varys could do it, I guess, but he would have no motive).

Euron's Faceless Man would have been a different person - and to be clear: we have only Euron's word that he ever had a dragon's egg. That isn't worth anything while we don't have other evidence

See my thread (tinfoil-y) about Jaqen being Gerion. Much of what you object is answered there. The link is above in comment #167. 

Well Jaqen could be anyone from Gerion to Ned, Brandon to Rhaegar or plain old Jaqen from Lorath (very very unlikely, the last one, considering the number of characters with unknown fates, it's possible George will link it) 

And @Lord Varys, I still stand by my opinion that Shae had it coming....because.. 

When you play a game of thrones you win or you die. There is no middle ground. 

She did play it. Knowingly ( if she was Varys's little bird) or unknowingly out of greed. 

[TheLastWolf]

20 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It is impossible to say, really.

Only thing with

21 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And of course the Faceless Men are all about information. They are magical assassins who might not only kill people but also gather information for the rulers of Braavos (which they themselves might be to a good degree).

Nope

Not the information part but... 

their loyalty to the Sealord of Braavos and others in power. Where is it mentioned that they have loyalty to Braavos. The FM came there before Braavos was formally established IIRC. Besides the only things FM have been loyal to are Money and The Many Faced God. Now it's money only I'm afraid. 

21 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

expect the other Faceless Men to go on a killing spree for Stannis in the wake of the deal he made with the Iron Bank. They will have to ensure that their investment is going to come back with interest ... meaning Stannis' enemies have to die

Nope again

You assume that the FM, Sealord, Iron Bank are all one single organization.... wrongly. Maybe the Iron bank and Sealord are, not with the FM/HoBaW jointly 

21 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The Braavosi do loathe dragons, as shown by Tycho Nestoris in ADwD. They will only make one decision about them ... kill them.

Nah. 

You assume that the FM are still loyal to their original hatred of Valyria and the dragons like the common Braavosi. In their trade personal opinions cannot have influence. 

They kill more for money than the Many faced God now

Remember also that the first FM killed a fellow slave first and then after a long time only a slaver/master. He answered their prayers for mercy without bias, unlike now where prices are too high (so adjustments had to be made to keep the FM/HoBaW from losing customers) 

35 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Else he wouldn't have treated her the way he did.

Either shackles (Elmar's betrothal broken indicates Jeyne married Robb and the various letters Roose sent and received were plotting of the Red Wedding with the Freys and Tywin) and eventual marriage to Ramsay or... 

[U. B. Cool]

On 8/9/2020 at 5:00 PM, James West said:

I have always thought of the Starks as a bunch of shitheads.  Still do.  Arya is at least providing reader entertainment in some of her chapters. It makes her a good addition to the cast of characters even if we don't like her.  It's been a long time since I read Treasure Island. Long John is most alike to Mance Rayder.  Arya is not as colorful in terms of interesting but she is the one who brings on the cringe.  She is a creepy shocker to make the reader feel unsettled.  Kind of scary.  

The sample chapter was creepy. 

[Lord Varys]

On 8/12/2020 at 4:34 PM, TheLastWolf said:

their loyalty to the Sealord of Braavos and others in power. Where is it mentioned that they have loyalty to Braavos. The FM came there before Braavos was formally established IIRC. Besides the only things FM have been loyal to are Money and The Many Faced God. Now it's money only I'm afraid. 

If they were not loyal to those in power or part of the people who are in power they would not be allowed to exist and operate the way they do. I mean, everybody can go to those people to kill somebody ... and this is tolerated. That only works in a city if that's how the people want it to be. Else a mob would have put down all the people in the House of Black and White a long, long time ago.

On 8/12/2020 at 4:34 PM, TheLastWolf said:

You assume that the FM, Sealord, Iron Bank are all one single organization.... wrongly. Maybe the Iron bank and Sealord are, not with the FM/HoBaW jointly 

Actually, there are rather obvious hints that either the Faceless Men are major shareholders in the Iron Bank or they are obliged to do the bank's bidding under certain circumstances. The reputation the Iron Bank has - for new pretenders springing up while the old princes who refuse to pay back their loans all die indicates the bank uses the Faceless Men to put down uncooperative debtors after they have brokered new deals with their eventual successors ... which they put in power via the Faceless Men.

The other thing is that Yandel point blank says that there are rumors that the Iron Bank sends assassins after debtors.

On 8/12/2020 at 4:34 PM, TheLastWolf said:

You assume that the FM are still loyal to their original hatred of Valyria and the dragons like the common Braavosi. In their trade personal opinions cannot have influence. 

That is what they pretend is the case ... it doesn't have to be the actual truth. This organization does not exist in a vacuum. If they are not loyal to Braavos and what the Braavosi as a collective want, they will no exist the way they do.

On 8/12/2020 at 4:34 PM, TheLastWolf said:

Remember also that the first FM killed a fellow slave first and then after a long time only a slaver/master. He answered their prayers for mercy without bias, unlike now where prices are too high (so adjustments had to be made to keep the FM/HoBaW from losing customers) 

Of course, the thing started as a death cult ... but one wonders who set up the Faceless Men to cause the Doom of Valyria. It could very well be that the Braavosi elite wanted to do away with Valyria and charged the Faceless Men to do it. They wouldn't have done that for free nor, one assumes, if they didn't have to.

On 8/12/2020 at 4:34 PM, TheLastWolf said:

Either shackles (Elmar's betrothal broken indicates Jeyne married Robb and the various letters Roose sent and received were plotting of the Red Wedding with the Freys and Tywin) and eventual marriage to Ramsay or... 

Which all happens much later than the actual taking of Harrenhal by Roose.

[Thunder Bunny-3000]

On 8/10/2020 at 4:10 PM, Roswell said:

I don't want to get bogged down in good vs. bad gridlock.  I want to talk about a possible future light at the end of the dark tunnel.  Arya might be a child in years but she definitely is not a child in any other way.  So how the heck is anybody getting a chance to rehab her?  An adult man giving her a spanking for bad behavior will get murdered in his sleep.  Joffrey will have been hard to reform.  Arya is harder still.  Remembering she's a Stark is not the correct answer.  The Stark kids are not good role models.  Her big brother Jon is not coming back in a right state of mind.  He wasn't when he was killed.  Coming back from death is not going to improve his morals nor his temper.  Arya is not going to listen to a tree.

 

Yoren gave Arya a spanking for Kicking Hot pies butt. he wasn't murdered in his sleep. this is after her first killing. which was justified by the way.

[Darth Sidious]

On 8/9/2020 at 5:00 PM, James West said:

I have always thought of the Starks as a bunch of shitheads.  Still do.  Arya is at least providing reader entertainment in some of her chapters. It makes her a good addition to the cast of characters even if we don't like her.  It's been a long time since I read Treasure Island. Long John is most alike to Mance Rayder.  Arya is not as colorful in terms of interesting but she is the one who brings on the cringe.  She is a creepy shocker to make the reader feel unsettled.  Kind of scary.  

 

On 8/11/2020 at 4:24 PM, Lord Varys said:

The next book is not going to undo what Arya did in the earlier books. This idea that the ending or some future changes sort of do away with everything that happened before wouldn't even make sense if this was a fairy tale (which it is not). Arya can save the world for all I care - she would still have to answer to that Northman she murdered in cold blood, for Dareon, and for insurance guy. Just as Tyrion is likely going to pay for what he did to Shae and Tysha.

And the Arya problem is really a hard problem. Her plot is only interesting if she continues on her assassin journey - that is how she can make a difference in relation to the overall (political) plot, but for her personal story it would be childish fan fiction if she ever became a nice and normal little girl again. The author turned her into a murderess and assassin for a reason. He wanted her to go to that dark place. That is not some sort of weekend excursion, it is her life now. Her story would be pointless and stupid if she did not continue on her path to the bitter end.

And the way she is decribed when she murders Raff she acts like a perfect psychopathic serial killer. For her killing is a thing like everything else ... and something she very much enjoys in this case. What exactly the author wants to accomplish by depicting a child who gets better and better at killing people is everybody's guess but a good guess is that this is not going to turn her into a heroine nor will it be good for Arya on a personal level.

Shock value is what the author wants to happen.  He wants to shock his reader.  It is not everyday where people to get to read about and get disgusted with the violence Arya is committing.  

[Darth Sidious]

17 minutes ago, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

Yoren gave Arya a spanking for Kicking Hot pies butt. he wasn't murdered in his sleep. this is after her first killing. which was justified by the way.

Arya has become crazier and darker since.  

[GoldenGail3]

On 8/9/2020 at 2:48 PM, James West said:

Most prefer her book version.  

Her book version isn’t some Mary Sue who’d survive against the waith... no offence but the waith would kill Arya in the books if they ever got in a fight..,

[TheLastWolf]

10 hours ago, GoldenGail3 said:

Her book version isn’t some Mary Sue who’d survive against the waith... no offence but the waith would kill Arya in the books if they ever got in a fight..,

Considering Arya's warging abilities and all heightened senses along with it, the waif will have a match in Arya. Imagine thousands of cats clawing the waif. Meow. 

[TheLastWolf]

And all those who hate Arya and brand her a psycho usually (and mysteriously) tend to be Stark haters. Can't imagine why.

So anyway, I'll give you another stark who is more liable to be a psycho now. 

You guessed right. It's Rickon. He was already half mad with his aptly named wild Direwolf Shaggydog due to sorrow, grief, stubbornness, refusal to accept loss mean, among a hundred other reasons. His actions in AGoT and ACOK are proof enough. Especially the crypt and God's wood incidents.

Now he is unlikely to have become more friendly with Osha and the Wildlings for so long a time. The Wildlings are also not normal ones, cannibal Skagosi. There u go, you have a potential stark psycho. Hate him, he is a minor character. Happy? 

[Son of Man]

Rickon is succumbing to his direwolf.  The bond goes both ways.  Some of the dw's instincts are becoming Rickon's.  In short, the boy is becoming more wild and savage.  It's not his fault.  He's not mentally strong enough to hold this bond and remain himself.  Rickon has not done anything to make the fans mad at him.  Yet. Not in my opinion.  He can't help it.  He's gotten bonded to his dw at too early of an age.  It is hard to hold somebody accountable when they have no capacity to choose.  You don't blame Jinglebells for the red wedding.  Arya and Jon had choices.  I think that is why we Stark haters dislike those two so much. 

Sansa is an airhead and a selfish brat.  But she is the most civilized of the Starks.  Less savage if you will.  She lost her direwolf the soonest.  Before Lady can influence her too much.  Lady was also the more laid back of the direwolves.  She was the opposite of Ghost and Shaggydog.  The savages will inherit this world though.  The future does not look bright for Sansa.  Arya, Jon, and Rickon will survive the longest of this clan.  I feel like Arya and Jon (or with Tyrion) will reproduce to continue this family.  Bran will be the only Stark of his generation living to see spring and Arya's child will also live.

1 hour ago, TheLastWolf said:

And all those who hate Arya and brand her a psycho usually (and mysteriously) tend to be Stark haters. Can't imagine why.

So anyway, I'll give you another stark who is more liable to be a psycho now. 

You guessed right. It's Rickon. He was already half mad with his aptly named wild Direwolf Shaggydog due to sorrow, grief, stubbornness, refusal to accept loss mean, among a hundred other reasons. His actions in AGoT and ACOK are proof enough. Especially the crypt and God's wood incidents.

Now he is unlikely to have become more friendly with Osha and the Wildlings for so long a time. The Wildlings are also not normal ones, cannibal Skagosi. There u go, you have a potential stark psycho. Hate him, he is a minor character. Happy?