Arya Stark: Mindless Psycho Killer or Righteous Avenger?

[TheLastWolf]

3 hours ago, Son of Man said:

Rickon is succumbing to his direwolf.  The bond goes both ways.  Some of the dw's instincts are becoming Rickon's.  In short, the boy is becoming more wild and savage.  It's not his fault.  He's not mentally strong enough to hold this bond and remain himself.  Rickon has not done anything to make the fans mad at him.  Yet. Not in my opinion.  He can't help it.  He's gotten bonded to his dw at too early of an age.  It is hard to hold somebody accountable when they have no capacity to choose.  You don't blame Jinglebells for the red wedding.  Arya and Jon had choices.  I think that is why we Stark haters dislike those two so much. 

Sansa is an airhead and a selfish brat.  But she is the most civilized of the Starks.  Less savage if you will.  She lost her direwolf the soonest.  Before Lady can influence her too much.  Lady was also the more laid back of the direwolves.  She was the opposite of Ghost and Shaggydog.  The savages will inherit this world though.  The future does not look bright for Sansa.  Arya, Jon, and Rickon will survive the longest of this clan.  I feel like Arya and Jon (or with Tyrion) will reproduce to continue this family.  Bran will be the only Stark of his generation living to see spring and Arya's child will also live.

 

Waiting for the likes, laughs and bullshit from Stark haters named like 'Some Targaryen's soul/sole/hole' and 'Wolf's bane/ Wolf slayer' and 'Lord of the Crossing/Twins' or 'Lord Frey' and Lord of the Dreadfort or Bolton the skinner and such. 

[TheLastWolf]

3 hours ago, Son of Man said:

Rickon is succumbing to his direwolf.  The bond goes both ways.  Some of the dw's instincts are becoming Rickon's.  In short, the boy is becoming more wild and savage.  It's not his fault.  He's not mentally strong enough to hold this bond and remain himself.  Rickon has not done anything to make the fans mad at him.  Yet. Not in my opinion.  He can't help it.  He's gotten bonded to his dw at too early of an age.  It is hard to hold somebody accountable when they have no capacity to choose.  You don't blame Jinglebells for the red wedding

Lookie here. It was intended sarcastically. I don't say rickon has done something terrible. He may, along with Arya and Nymeria (the Boltons and/Freys will be at the receiving end).

And I agree to an extent that Rickon had no choice about his actions. Only to an extent, about the age thing. The rest was  destiny or fate. How else could all the Starks get direwolves matching their earlier temperament? 

Besides Targaryens have similar bonds. It's not spelled out, it wasn't for the starks either, but we all came to the conclusion very quickly. 

The dragons are compatible with those of Valyrian, especially dragonrider descent. Only left are Targs. 

3 hours ago, Son of Man said:

Arya and Jon had choices.  I think that is why we Stark haters dislike those two so much. 

Find a better reason. I'm gagging positively. 

3 hours ago, Son of Man said:

Sansa is an airhead and a selfish brat.  But she is the most civilized of the Starks

By civilized you mean all dreamy about life, flowers and knights in shining armor kinda things. She was. Now she is slowly realizing harsh reality of life. She is playing the Game of thrones. 

And if you consider her civilized, that speaks about you a lot. 

3 hours ago, Son of Man said:

Less savage if you will.

Biased hater's opinion. 

3 hours ago, Son of Man said:

She lost her direwolf the soonest.  Before Lady can influence her too much.  Lady was also the more laid back of the direwolves.  She was the opposite of Ghost and Shaggydog

Lady was like Sansa. Opposite of shaggy I can understand, but Ghost?!? 

3 hours ago, Son of Man said:

The savages will inherit this world though.  The future does not look bright for Sansa.  Arya, Jon, and Rickon will survive the longest of this clan.  I feel like Arya and Jon (or with Tyrion) will reproduce to continue this family.  Bran will be the only Stark of his generation living to see spring and Arya's child will also live.

Ranting ranting... 

And no more gross incest stark haters, NO MORE!!! 

[GoldenGail3]

8 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Considering Arya's warging abilities and all heightened senses along with it, the waif will have a match in Arya. Imagine thousands of cats clawing the waif. Meow. 

Wew that would be quite an image to behold. For the record I love Arya in the books, I feel extremely bad for her tbh, she’s been through so much as a little child and I wonder what she’ll think when she hears that Jeyne Poole is using her name in a proxy marriage to Ramsay Bolton.

[zandru]

20 hours ago, Prince Rhaego's Soul said:

Arya has become crazier and darker since.  

Evidence? I think what has happened is just the opposite. Arya, by the end of their time together, had become a reasonably willing companion to Sandor and momentarily even stopped thinking of him as "The Hound." She made friends among the sailors en route to Braavos and wished she could join them. She's made friends within the House of Black & White and during the assignments they've given her. She listens to, and takes to heart, what the Kindly Man and the Waif teach her. "Crazier and darker"? I think she's become much more thoughtful and, dare we say, secure in her new "pack."

19 hours ago, GoldenGail3 said:

the waith would kill Arya in the books if they ever got in a fight..,

But why would they? In the books, Arya and the Waif have a good relationship of mutual respect.

54 minutes ago, GoldenGail3 said:

I wonder what she’ll think when she hears that Jeyne Poole is using her name in a proxy marriage to Ramsay Bolton.

Oh, I think Arya is sharp enough to put together information and realize that poor Jeyne is being used, not "using [Arya's] name." Also, that Cersei Lannister (already on Arya's List) is ultimately responsible. Arya never hated Jeyne, even though she didn't like the way Jeyne and Sansa would gang up on her, mean-girl fashion. As she inevitably learns what Ramsey has been doing to Jeyne, her sympathy for her father's steward's daughter can only increase, because that's the kind of girl-woman Arya is. She's no psychopathic murder machine.

Also, as we know, Theon/Reek and Jeyne/Arya have escaped from Ramsey! Many have speculated on where Jeyne might go from here.

[James West]

On 8/14/2020 at 7:37 PM, GoldenGail3 said:

Her book version isn’t some Mary Sue who’d survive against the waith... no offence but the waith would kill Arya in the books if they ever got in a fight..,

The one had more dimensions to her character.  Very dark inside.  HBO removed the objectionable parts of Arya because the writers wanted the audience to like her.  Stick fighting and all is not that important to her character's appeal or lack of appeal. 

[GoldenGail3]

21 hours ago, zandru said:

But why would they? In the books, Arya and the Waif have a good relationship of mutual respect.

What if they got into a fight into the books? That’s what I was saying anyhow, and I just don’t like the idea of Book Arya being turned into a Mary Sue anyhow. It makes me sad to think about in any case.

[H Wadsworth Longfellow]

On 7/31/2020 at 1:26 AM, Wintersshewolf said:

If GRRM was an author who wrote in a straight line with no twists and no complex characters, you would be right. But thankfully that's not true. Arya's list is coping mechanism. It's a response to all the evil and injustice she has seen since leaving Winterfell. It's far from the beginning or end of her story and character arc.

Again, if killing criminals/enemies/people who will kill you if you don't kill them first harms the mental health of a character, Ned, Robb, and Jon must have been suffering from some severe mental illness.

Dareon and the insurance guy were not trying to kill Arya.  They have not done her any harm.   She had no moral cause to murder those two.  To want to join a cult of murderers is not a sign of sound mental health. 

[TheLastWolf]

On 8/17/2020 at 7:25 AM, H Wadsey Longfellow said:

Dareon and the insurance guy were not trying to kill Arya.  They have not done her any harm.

Not again!!! 

On 8/17/2020 at 7:25 AM, H Wadsey Longfellow said:

She had no moral cause to murder those two. 

Hope you know what Daeron was doing. Deserting. And Arya knew it too. And to desert at such a time warrants death. And what did he desert for. The Wall was too cold and he wanted wine and women. Great reasons. 

The Insurance guy is said to be bad (to put it simply) and I wonder why all Stark haters think otherwise. 

[PrettyLittlePsycho]

On 8/17/2020 at 3:55 AM, H Wadsey Longfellow said:

Dareon and the insurance guy were not trying to kill Arya.  They have not done her any harm.   She had no moral cause to murder those two.  To want to join a cult of murderers is not a sign of sound mental health. 

To quote the Hound: " There´s plenty worse people out there."

I totally love this darker streak to Aryas story. The "morally ambigious" charcters are often the most interesting to read, see Dexter, Hannibal Lector, ...

[Lilaerys Blackfyre]

10 hours ago, PrettyLittlePsycho said:

I totally love this darker streak to Aryas story. The "morally ambigious" charcters are often the most interesting to read, see Dexter, Hannibal Lector, ...

Yes, this absolutely! But ... darkER? Arya has been single-mindedly obsessed with killing since the beginning of the story (well, mostly with wielding a sword, but what else do you wield a sword for?). Even before traumatic events more or less forced her to kill, it was all she was really interested in. Bran was fascinated with old tales, Arya was only interested if they were violent or tragic (just as Sansa only wanted to hear the romantic ones). She's bored at King's Landing (where there are probably countless things for a child of high nobility to amuse themselves with, whether they're bookish or courtly or physically adventurous) until she learns to fight from Syrio Forel. Of course, that attitude is not really different from the attitude of many Westerosi males who are growing up to be knights. Maybe she's just a bratty morbid tomboy (which is why we love her!), but those are looking less like phases she grows out of (or even into a lady knight like Brienne who still checks the "tomboy" box but hardly the other two), but rather evidence of a vicious death-obsessed killer (GRRM has made un-sympathetic characters more sympathetic, so it would hardly be unusual to make one of his most initially-sympathetic, and hence popular, characters less so) - every parent's nightmare: It wasn't "just a phase"! Now your daughter is a member of a fanatical nihilistic murderous death cult! And you won't even recognize her anymore! (evil laugh) But her most memorable quote from before leaving Winterfell is (again) what you do to kill someone.

So Arya isn't getting darker per se IMHO, just more experienced at what she always wanted to do.

I think that one thing that gets overlooked in focusing on her 3 killings since arriving in Braavos is that they amount to a tiny fraction of her time there. And her time at the House of Black and White only amounts to a small fraction (just her initial training, one weekend a month over many months, and mission prep). The vast majority of her time in Braavos is spent immersed in the characters of Cat (who is not so much of a stretch from Arya's actual persona, they both have the same feisty nature) and Mercy (who is completely different from Arya! she has a feisty nature, too, but hers is playful and good-natured rather than surly and threatening - it's a prop cock she jokes about removing; for Arya, it would be a real one), in the company of people who are, essentially family (if not blood family), with the sense of security that a family is supposed to give (something her post-Kings Landing Westerosi "families" could never have), to her in a way she hasn't experienced since Winterfell. After countless others have tried and failed, the Faceless Man are the first to succeed at "smoothing her rough edges".

So at the same time the Faceless Men are arranging for her to learn to become a thorough infiltrator and amoral assassin, they're also offering her the chance to give up her obsession with killing by showing her the "normal" lives she could lead if she wanted. One should never take what the Faceless Men say at Face Value (it is known), but I do tend to believe them when they offer that to her. Of course, her wolf nature would never let her give that up. And, more importantly, that would remove her purpose in the narrative. So of course, she will continue to become a more ruthless and efficient killing machine. The question is, "how much of her sense of 'honor' will she maintain?" All her killings so far have been justified to herself. She was Stark heir, so she "had a duty" to judge, condemn, and execute the Night's Watch deserter. Raff's killing was easy for her to justify (and, of course, who could have sympathy for that person!).

The way she convinces herself that the killing of the insurance man is "justified" is fascinating to see. She has to work herself to do so, and at the end, the Kindly Man provides her with the manipulative thought required for her to complete the self-justification (even while discounting her initial self-justifications). He says, "it is one thing to write in a binder, it is another thing to make good" (while smiling a sad little smile). He does not say anything with the certainty of (for example), "this man reneged on his sworn vow. It is known" - that's just what Arya wants to assume he means. (Don't take Faceless Men at face value!)

Wild Prediction: as she nears completion of her training, the FM will tell her that the insurance man's tough, unfriendly, unhappy behavior was because he had to deal with hardened ship captains constantly (guys who fight pirates and brave typhoons, and deal with hard-bargaining merchants on a regular basis ... "old salt" types who aren't going to take anything from a fancy-dressed "landlubber"), so he had to present an extremely tough exterior. But at home, he was warm, friendly, loved his family, paid his servants (this is Braavos, no slaves) generously & treated them well, was a community pillar, gave gold to the "widows & orphans of sailors who couldn't afford insurance, unlike their captains" charitable fund, etc. He was playing a role, just as Arya and the FM play roles. Perhaps it was an avaricious, jealous (and simply vile overall) rival who paid a fortune to the FM for the gift that Arya gave. With that, they can show her: A - she based her judgement on insufficient facts, B - they knew she was pre-disposed towards doing the killing, and was looking for a reason to do it. They fed her the bait she needed to find that reason, and she took it, making the assumption she wanted to think (and that they wanted her to think, while making her think they were trying to talk her out of it - reverse psychology 101). That's the thing that would make someone (with any actual morality) question their moral values and clarity once they realize how easy it is to pervert justice in one's mind. Perhaps that is even what will drive her back to Westeros (I imagine everyone agrees that the question of her return is "when" and "how/what reason", not "if"). (And then at the end, after her mind's blown, they'll tell her she was actually correct originally, and that they were lying. Or not. Would it really matter which? Only if she is able to determine the difference between him telling the truth, or telling a lie.)

However, even if that comes to pass, there will hopefully be more before that ... is it known that Mercy would actually be the first chapter in TWoW to feature Arya? (Even if not her POV - it appears that there will be a different POV that would feature her, yes)? There are a lot of un-answered questions and circumstantial evidence that the other mummers are introduced in an earlier chapter (no physical descriptions of them in Mercy, which is very un-GRRM-like for introducing so many new characters). And I have thoughts on the suitable punishment she'll face (sorry) from the Faceless Men after her major "shortcut"/"cheat" slip-up (which means the FM will probably have to "take care" of Raff's hapless partner - who seemed like a not-bad sort, the way he was clearly thoroughly disgusted with Raff's description of his time following Gregor - as post-mission cleanup, lest he spill).

We also know she's in the process of becoming a more vicious killer since she's warging into cats. Wolves kill their prey outright. Cats love to torture it to death. (Cats and Arya: both cute, adorable, lovable, and vicious killers!)

Sorry to ramble so much (especially for not really having posted something like this here, hi!), I've been really sucked into the Braavos chapters recently, I'm looking forward to both Arya's character arc, and the Braavos/Westeros political blow-up that is bound to follow Mercy's "murder". It is certainly implied that the FM are deeply entwined in both the Iron Bank and Braavosi oligarchy, so Arya may get to see some of the inner workings of that situation (like she did at Harrenhall). I think I especially enjoy the "world building" of Braavos because it's the first society we've encountered that I could actually imagine wanting to live in ... and telling to understand how inconsequential Westeros is to them - seems that it's mostly just a source of gold (for which they exchange the luxury goods for the Westerosi nobility who don't have the craftsmanship/technology to make themselves), and a source of cannon-fodder manpower for mercenary armies. (And a source of bad behavior for playwrights to use as material. And they wear siggles of chickens & things, and have other equally-quaint traditions.)

[zandru]

7 hours ago, Lilaerys Blackfyre said:

Arya has been single-mindedly obsessed with killing since the beginning of the story (well, mostly with wielding a sword, but what else do you wield a sword for?).

I disagree with as much of your interpretation as I had patience to read (my apologies). It seems to hang largely on the concept of why any girl would want to learn swordplay. To kill? How about to protect? To preserve? To bring justice? To defend?

And also, it's a very physical skill. Many people like to do physically challenging things that require skill and practice, strength, balance, quickness, strategy. Remember, they don't have basketball in Westeros - they don't have ANY sort of pneumatic ball. Sansa is perfectly happy to sit and stitch for hours, maybe share courtly gossip and mock other people's manners. Arya is out riding her horse, sparring with wooden swords, running, jumping and climbing.

I totally reject your assertion which all your conclusions are based upon that Arya has always and constantly wanted to kill people.

[Shi Qiang]

On 8/11/2020 at 4:07 PM, zandru said:

Obviously not. Now, an old man who defrauded a captain who apparently later died at sea but who had taken out a policy to ensure his family wouldn't be left penniless, but then they were because the old man y'all love so dearly refused to honor the contract and pay up? That's different, and that's what the text says. You can whinge how this was a "civil case" and how the family "should have taken it into mediation" and file a report with the Braavosi Better Business Bureau or write to their congressman. But all that is irrelevant to the unfounded assertion that Arya Stark is a mindless psycho killer.

Like I said in my post, book Arya is a terrible person.  And that is regardless of whether she is mindless or not.  But she is a killer.  And more than likely a psycho.  She can be terrible, which she is, without being mindless.  

[TheLastWolf]

Conclusion (not of the thread) 

The only mad stark was..... Catelyn 

[TheLastWolf]

Spoiler

True evil people like Gregor, Green Grace, Faceless Men, Hizdahr, Ramsay, Arya, Cersei, Kraznys decorate the plot but are not the real villains.

Back to where we started, heh? Ramsay Arya being put together. Great. Absolutely effing gr8. 

[Azarial]

My takeaway from this thread is that the fans of girl who crucified 163 people without first ascertaining their guilt are judging Arya for not doing a good enough job, although still at least tried, of ascertaining the guilt of one man that she killed. And wasn't this guy hinted to be a Frey that was guilty? As per what we heard from Davos chapter in White Harbor? I honestly don't remember for sure, but thought that was the case. 

Then I'm sure they'll say they deserved it, because even if they didn't do it themselves they didn't stop it. Negating the defense used for the Bolton guards, whom have witnessed many atrocities, and done nothing. 

Then they may talk about the victims being innocent children, but they also said that that is no excuse to kill based on the killing of the tickler. Or maybe they will play the slave card, forgetting that the people the Mountain captured were all held against their will and then forced to work making them slaves. 

So as far as I can tell Arya and Dany are foils, not Arya and Ramsey. Unless they believe Ramsey is a foil for Dany too?

As for her being a psycho, her worst killing was the soup incident. This is told to her outright by Jaqen, with the blood being wiped on her, and her finding out that the prisoners weren't what they appeared. This is the worst because that is the time that she judged based on the prisoners being Stark banner-men without digging further. Something he reprimanded her for.

And the FM training is teaching her to learn to see the actual truth and be impartial before acting, that is why they can't know the targets. And I bet that if the claims are false they take the guilty life instead, as per what is hinted at in her reaction and his response to their origin story. Her symbolism is the blind woman of justice, not the blind psycho killer. The hound looks mean and scary, but she learned the truth about him and removed him from the list. How can they judge her for having Payne on her list, but not having done anything about it, when she could very well learn more and remove him from her list. People can't be convicted for murder for simply wanting someone dead. 

Oh, and Dareon, she interacted with him lots, he was a nice guy and she had no intent to kill him. But, after Sam raced off they fought publicly, and it was stated not just that he was deserting, but that he left three people and an infant to die and didn't care. I would be shocked if she didn't come by after and ask what happened! Just because she didn't state this to the Kindly Man doesn't mean she didn't know. It's not the first time she's kept stuff from him.

[a black swan]

3 hours ago, Azarial said:

My takeaway from this thread is that the fans of girl who crucified 163 people without first ascertaining their guilt are judging Arya for not doing a good enough job... 

Yes we can all smell the Targ loyalists a mile away. Great post btw!

[SeanF]

On 9/19/2020 at 6:21 PM, Azarial said:

My takeaway from this thread is that the fans of girl who crucified 163 people without first ascertaining their guilt are judging Arya for not doing a good enough job, although still at least tried, of ascertaining the guilt of one man that she killed. And wasn't this guy hinted to be a Frey that was guilty? As per what we heard from Davos chapter in White Harbor? I honestly don't remember for sure, but thought that was the case. 

Then I'm sure they'll say they deserved it, because even if they didn't do it themselves they didn't stop it. Negating the defense used for the Bolton guards, whom have witnessed many atrocities, and done nothing. 

Then they may talk about the victims being innocent children, but they also said that that is no excuse to kill based on the killing of the tickler. Or maybe they will play the slave card, forgetting that the people the Mountain captured were all held against their will and then forced to work making them slaves. 

So as far as I can tell Arya and Dany are foils, not Arya and Ramsey. Unless they believe Ramsey is a foil for Dany too?

 

I don't have a problem with the execution of the 163 ,or the killing of the Bolton guards, or the Tickler, or of Raff the Sweetling.  They all had it coming. Daeron and the insurance salesman are more iffy, I think.

It's not ideal that a young girl is a killer, but this is a very violent world.  I imagine that all of the five child/teenage main characters must be carrying a huge weight of repressed trauma, as a result of what they've been through.

[Azarial]

On 9/22/2020 at 8:44 AM, SeanF said:

I don't have a problem with the execution of the 163 ,or the killing of the Bolton guards, or the Tickler, or of Raff the Sweetling.  They all had it coming. Daeron and the insurance salesman are more iffy, I think.

It's not ideal that a young girl is a killer, but this is a very violent world.  I imagine that all of the five child/teenage main characters must be carrying a huge weight of repressed trauma, as a result of what they've been through.

Yeah, but you weren't one of the ones comparing her to Ramsey. Questioning her actions in a reasonable way like you did and calling her a psycho beyond redemption despite a large number of other characters whom have done similar actions isn't the same thing, especially when they are comparing her to a monster like Ramsey when there is no relation between their actions.

[Bowen 747]

On 9/9/2020 at 5:46 AM, TheLastWolf said:

Conclusion (not of the thread) 

The only mad stark was..... Catelyn 

Jon was the worst of that lot.  Catelyn wasn't really mad until she became Lady Stoneheart.  Which is where Arya is headed. 

[TheLastWolf]

7 hours ago, Bowen 747 said:

Jon was the worst of that lot.

What a surprise! Coming from someone named Bowen. 

7 hours ago, Bowen 747 said:

Which is where Arya is headed. 

Blah blah blah