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TheLastWolf

Arya Stark: Mindless Psycho Killer or Righteous Avenger?

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8 hours ago, Azarial said:

Yeah, but you weren't one of the ones comparing her to Ramsey.

Oh there are a lot of them silently watching BTW

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To be honest,I love most of the characters and I would lie if I would say I don't fear for her.I do fear for every one of them.Arya,Jon,Dany,Sansa,Bran,they all are not in a quite happy place right now and things are about to blow up.Her comparizon to Ramsay didn't even cross my mind.Like others said,she still retains her identity.Her scene holding on to Needle made me tear up.I do see her realising that revenge isn't a good path.Some pointed out that Lady Stoneheard will make her see that.

I always find laughable when people feel the need to trash characters just to boost others.I'm sure Martin does not pick sides so what's the point?:dunno::lol:

Edited by Oana Becherescu

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On 9/22/2020 at 11:49 PM, TheLastWolf said:

What a surprise! Coming from someone named Bowen. 

Blah blah blah

Well Bowen finding someone to be terrible for being a compassionate reasonable person instead of pandering to a specific group of people is consistent with the character :rofl:

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On 9/23/2020 at 9:08 AM, Dracul's Daughter said:

To be honest,I love most of the characters

I always find laughable when people feel the need to trash characters just to boost others.I'm sure Martin does not pick sides so what's the point?:dunno::lol:

:agree:We all have characters that we are drawn to more than others, but people can enjoy characters even if they aren't the 'hero' or their 'favorite.' I find Cersei's decent highly entertaining for example, but no one would claim she's a hero, or someone to cheer for. And there are clues for the fates of characters hidden in other characters chapters, so if you skim, or read with a character bias you miss so much. But, to each their own I guess, though I don't understand it.

As for Arya, I think she craves justice and safety for the small folk, her family and her friends more than revenge. If she craved revenge she wouldn't have forgiven the Hound. Most of her list are people that have wronged those who couldn't defend themselves for various reasons. The ones that harmed her directly were dealt with by Jaqen as she felt personally threatened and in in danger from them, and she didn't target those who could be considered revenge for her family. I think this is often overlooked when evaluating her actions.

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I liked the Cersei as an interesting read in the books. Lena changed the character a lot, or was directed to. Maisie seems like a lot of fun in real life with some of her pranks. I think it comes across in the show as weirdly fun loving, but I can still enjoy it, even with short strange scenes meant to highlight her “progress”.

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3 hours ago, Azarial said:

:agree:We all have characters that we are drawn to more than others, but people can enjoy characters even if they aren't the 'hero' or their 'favorite.' I find Cersei's decent highly entertaining for example, but no one would claim she's a hero, or someone to cheer for. And there are clues for the fates of characters hidden in other characters chapters, so if you skim, or read with a character bias you miss so much. But, to each their own I guess, though I don't understand it.

As for Arya, I think she craves justice and safety for the small folk, her family and her friends more than revenge. If she craved revenge she wouldn't have forgiven the Hound. Most of her list are people that have wronged those who couldn't defend themselves for various reasons. The ones that harmed her directly were dealt with by Jaqen as she felt personally threatened and in in danger from them, and she didn't target those who could be considered revenge for her family. I think this is often overlooked when evaluating her actions.

I also found Cersei's chapters interesting and althou many (including me) won't cheer for her,I couldn't help but feel sorry on her walk of shame.Her constantly thinking "Just one more step and I'll be with Tommen" was pretty sad.
I doubt any of those criticizing Arya would cry for those that she or Jaquen in Harrenhal killed.

Edited by Dracul's Daughter

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More hints of her humanity apart from clinging on to Needle. 

Arya 10 ACoK 

Three-quarters of the water had splashed out on the ground, so Arya had to return to the well. If I told Lord Bolton what she said, her head would be up next to Harra's before it got dark, she thought as she drew up the bucket again. She wouldn't, though.

 

"You take her!" she yelled. "You get her out! You do it!" The fire beat at her back with hot red wings as she fled the burning barn. It felt blessedly cool outside, but men were dying all around her. She saw Koss throw down his blade to yield, and she saw them kill him where he stood. Smoke was everywhere. There was no sign of Yoren, but the axe was where Gendry had left it, by the woodpile outside the haven. As she wrenched it free, a mailed hand grabbed her arm. Spinning, Arya drove the head of the axe hard between his legs. She never saw his face, only the dark blood seeping between the links of his hauberk. Going back into that barn was the hardest thing she ever did. Smoke was pouring out the open door like a writhing black snake, and she could hear the screams of the poor animals inside, donkeys and horses and men. She chewed her lip, and darted through the doors, crouched low where the smoke wasn't quite so thick.

A donkey was caught in a ring of fire, shrieking in terror and pain. She could smell the stench of burning hair. The roof was gone up too, and things were falling down, pieces of flaming wood and bits of straw and hay. Arya put a hand over her mouth and nose. She couldn't see the wagon for the smoke, but she could still hear Biter screaming. She crawled toward the sound.

And then a wheel was looming over her. The wagon jumped and moved a half foot when Biter threw himself against his chains again. Jaqen saw her, but it was too hard to breathe, let alone talk. She threw the axe into the wagon. Rorge caught it and lifted it over his head, rivers of sooty sweat pouring down his noseless face. Arya was running, coughing. She heard the steel crash through the old wood, and again, again. An instant later came a crack as loud as thunder, and the bottom of the wagon came ripping loose in an explosion of splinters

Sure. Rorge and Biter were evil incarnate. But she saved their lives out of a child's innocent kindness. Besides it served the plot via Jaqen. She hadn't seen the horrors en route to and in Harrenhal yet. That hardened her. 

She does act whimsical at times, but it's justified by the simple fact that she is a child. 

Edit 

@Azarial

@zandru

Edited by TheLastWolf

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On 11/10/2020 at 7:22 AM, TheLastWolf said:

More hints of her humanity apart from clinging on to Needle. 

Arya 10 ACoK 

Three-quarters of the water had splashed out on the ground, so Arya had to return to the well. If I told Lord Bolton what she said, her head would be up next to Harra's before it got dark, she thought as she drew up the bucket again. She wouldn't, though.

 

"You take her!" she yelled. "You get her out! You do it!" The fire beat at her back with hot red wings as she fled the burning barn. It felt blessedly cool outside, but men were dying all around her. She saw Koss throw down his blade to yield, and she saw them kill him where he stood. Smoke was everywhere. There was no sign of Yoren, but the axe was where Gendry had left it, by the woodpile outside the haven. As she wrenched it free, a mailed hand grabbed her arm. Spinning, Arya drove the head of the axe hard between his legs. She never saw his face, only the dark blood seeping between the links of his hauberk. Going back into that barn was the hardest thing she ever did. Smoke was pouring out the open door like a writhing black snake, and she could hear the screams of the poor animals inside, donkeys and horses and men. She chewed her lip, and darted through the doors, crouched low where the smoke wasn't quite so thick.

A donkey was caught in a ring of fire, shrieking in terror and pain. She could smell the stench of burning hair. The roof was gone up too, and things were falling down, pieces of flaming wood and bits of straw and hay. Arya put a hand over her mouth and nose. She couldn't see the wagon for the smoke, but she could still hear Biter screaming. She crawled toward the sound.

And then a wheel was looming over her. The wagon jumped and moved a half foot when Biter threw himself against his chains again. Jaqen saw her, but it was too hard to breathe, let alone talk. She threw the axe into the wagon. Rorge caught it and lifted it over his head, rivers of sooty sweat pouring down his noseless face. Arya was running, coughing. She heard the steel crash through the old wood, and again, again. An instant later came a crack as loud as thunder, and the bottom of the wagon came ripping loose in an explosion of splinters

Sure. Rorge and Biter were evil incarnate. But she saved their lives out of a child's innocent kindness. Besides it served the plot via Jaqen. She hadn't seen the horrors en route to and in Harrenhal yet. That hardened her. 

She does act whimsical at times, but it's justified by the simple fact that she is a child. 

Edit 

@Azarial

@zandru

There is a lot that people who compare her to a psycho chose to ignore.

Her empathy with the Waif.

Her horror at what she experienced through her first face.

Her seeking to know what people did to deserve death, not being willing to kill blindly (I don't think the FM take on blind killers, this was a test and she passed). They don't want the people to be judged based on emotion, they look for the impartial truth. So much of her training is about this, like a judge in modern times.

Her caring for Weasel and the others in the Riverlands even when she knows she'd be safer alone.

Her going to try and save Gendry after he was captured instead of abandoning him.

Her willingness to forgive the Hound enough to not be willing to harm him (not enough to send help, but still!) despite her hating him longer than any other character.

Her love of her family, psychos don't feel love. They only mimic it.

Her clinging to reminders of home and family.

Her longing for her family and safety. 

These aren't the things psychos think about, or do. There are very few true psychos in the books. And no main characters that I can think of. Roose is the closest to a true cold psycho I can think of. He's cold, emotionless, his son was murdered and he just accepted it and declared the murderer his heir. That is a psychopath.

 

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In the past on this board, many have created threads that compare ASOIAF characters to classical Greek mythological figures. Arya invariably ends up being equated to Artemis, the Virgin Huntress, despite the fact that she isn't a huntress (that's Meera) and the only reason she is a virgin is because she is prepubescent.

Arya is remarkably similar to a Fury, the embodiment of righteous revenge. And since everyone reading this is familiar with Aeschylus's "Oresteia", we all know how that ends up. Right?

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4 hours ago, Ibbison from Ibben said:

In the past on this board, many have created threads that compare ASOIAF characters to classical Greek mythological figures. Arya invariably ends up being equated to Artemis, the Virgin Huntress, despite the fact that she isn't a huntress (that's Meera) and the only reason she is a virgin is because she is prepubescent.

Arya is remarkably similar to a Fury, the embodiment of righteous revenge. And since everyone reading this is familiar with Aeschylus's "Oresteia", we all know how that ends up. Right?

I'm not, could you elaborate?

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10 hours ago, Azarial said:

I'm not, could you elaborate?

The Oresteia is a trilogy of plays written by Aeschylus for a festival competition in Athens. It consists of  Agamemnon, The Libation Bearers, and The Eumenides. (The fourth play, the comedy Proteus, has been lost.) It deals with issues of justice and revenge.

In Ag, Agamemnon returns from Troy only to get murdered by his wife Clytemnestra and her lover for sacrificing Ag and Cly's daughter Iphigenia as he left for the war. (He had also taken his captive Cassandra as a mistress.)

In TLB, Ag and Cly's son Orestes is commanded by Apollo to avenge his father by killing the murderers, but is afraid that this will invoke retaliation from the Furies, pre-Olympian spirits of revenge, since killing his mother would be a crime as well. He kills them, and the Furies drive him mad.

In TE, Orestes prays to Athena to forgive him. Instead, she puts him on trial, with both Orestes and the Furies pleading their case. She rules in favor of Orestes, and turns the Furies into the Eumenides (The Kindly Ones), who become the spirits of lawful justice for Athens.

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Definitely not a mindless psycho killer. She took aim at baddies and eliminates them consequently. She has killed some (perhaps) innocent people, but, with one exception, only to survive. There are a loty of examples of her humanity and care for others.

The only exception is that ensurance guy and it is really no good. All the mystic blabber about how the Faceless Men do not judge their victims but the god does... yeah right. The round, flat, shiny, yellow god, I think I know him. Bunch of crooks, nothing else.

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6 hours ago, Kierria said:

Arya is not righteous.  Arya and Righteous are not even on the same planet.  What she does is nothing more than revenge in cold blood.  Her blood is cold. 

....based on what exactly? Cause this sounds fanciful at best. Are you sure you even know which character we're actually talking about?

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