The Sansa-Tyrion marriage was a very good idea on Tywin's behalf

[Alyn Oakenfist]

So I can already feel the hate train coming towards me, but really think about it. Tywin knows about the Tyrell conspiracy, what is he going to do? Allow her to be married off to the Tyrell just because he's such a nice guy? That's the kind of stupid honorable stuff only Ned would do. He also had the problem of not being able to marry Tyrion to anybody of the proper rank, because the rest of Westeros are discriminatory assholes on the same magnitude as he is, if not bigger, (I mean really for what they know Tyrion is the heir to Casterly Rock, why do they care so much he's a dwarf). So he's shooting all the birds with one stone. He is creating a strong Lannister claim on the North, aka his war enemies, he is marrying of his son and he is preventing the Tyrells from gaining too much power. And what are the reasons for not doing it? Sansa would be miserable? I'm pretty sure the happiness of a prisoner hostage is not really the most important thing for anyone, let alone Tywin. So what do you think?

[nyser1]

28 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So I can already feel the hate train coming towards me, but really think about it. Tywin knows about the Tyrell conspiracy, what is he going to do? Allow her to be married off to the Tyrell just because he's such a nice guy? That's the kind of stupid honorable stuff only Ned would do. He also had the problem of not being able to marry Tyrion to anybody of the proper rank, because the rest of Westeros are discriminatory assholes on the same magnitude as he is, if not bigger, (I mean really for what they know Tyrion is the heir to Casterly Rock, why do they care so much he's a dwarf). So he's shooting all the birds with one stone. He is creating a strong Lannister claim on the North, aka his war enemies, he is marrying of his son and he is preventing the Tyrells from gaining too much power. And what are the reasons for not doing it? Sansa would be miserable? I'm pretty sure the happiness of a prisoner hostage is not really the most important thing for anyone, let alone Tywin. So what do you think?

It was a brilliant idea, particularly as a counter to the Tyrell strategy. The issue here lays with Tyrion not executing his father's strategy.

 

Note: I am sure a bunch of Tyrion and Sansa fanpeople will lose their marbles reading this and will likely ignore this note. However, not saying Tyrion was wrong not to follow his Father's commands, but saying that this is why Tywin's strategy failed.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 minute ago, nyser1 said:

but saying that this is why Tywin's strategy failed.

I mean it kinda succeeded, at least partially. The wedding not being consummated was only a problem in the long term, after winter when the Lannisters would need to claim the North from the Boltons, for the short term the not consummated wedding did it's job. It cucked the Tyrell's and it solved the Tyrion marriage problem.

[nyser1]

Just now, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I mean it kinda succeeded, at least partially. The wedding not being consummated was only a problem in the long term, after winter when the Lannisters would need to claim the North from the Boltons, for the short term the not consummated wedding did it's job. It cucked the Tyrell's and it solved the Tyrion marriage problem.

But then it played right into the Tyrell/Baelish Purple Wedding plans rather well no?

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 minute ago, nyser1 said:

But then it played right into the Tyrell/Baelish Purple Wedding plans rather well no?

Yeah, you're right on that one. So yeah the problem with the plan was Tyrion not doing the deed, or at least people knowing Tyrion didn't do the deed. Not saying he should have cause yuck, but talking only politically.

[Lollygag]

As a Sansa fan, strategically it was a good move. Then again, I don't try to project the height of modern wokeness onto medieval-based fantasy characters. Also, Tyrion had just demanded Casterly Rock and it came to a head that Tyrion was the only one available and Tywin would never, never allow it. Tyrion really never cared for Casterly Rock, he just wanted to be acknowledged as worthy of it. Tossing him Winterfell and Sansa gets him to back off his claim and probably means other Lannisters won't try to put Tyrion in as it seems outside Tywin, Cersei and Joff, Tyrion is quite well-liked among his family.

 

Adding - yes Westeros discriminates against Tyrion, but if dwarfism really takes in the bloodline, it really reduces the chances they'll hold their position for any real amount of time. Tyrion is smart enough to compensate for this. Dwarf children, grandchildren, etc - there's no guarantees for that. It's also an added problem in the North. Tyrion ain't walking through a light snow of 3'-4' feet.

[frenin]

It was a great plan and as all great plan it didn't survive to reality, both Tyrion and the fact that Ned's sons weren't dead would have ruined the plan.

Honestly i think that the Northmen would rather free Jon from his oath than give Winterfell to a Lannister. But with Rickon being alive, well, there was no plan.

 

44 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

That's the kind of stupid honorable stuff only Ned would do

Ned wouldn't have done that...

[Alyn Oakenfist]

2 minutes ago, frenin said:

Ned wouldn't have done that...

I don't think Ned would have force married anyone to a member of his family against their will. It's the stupid honorable thing to do, even though there is every single political reason to do the force marriage

[frenin]

10 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I don't think Ned would have force married anyone to a member of his family against their will

Yeah he would. Where is even hinted that he wouldn't?? 

 

11 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

It's the stupid honorable thing to do,

Nope, the honorable thing to do is furthering the agenda of his House and since Ned's not a monster, not marrying his children to lunatics.

Arya made clear that she didn't want to be like Sansa and was ignored time after time.

Honestly don't really know where this idea of Ned comes from.

 

[Floki of the Ironborn]

Even if Tyrion HAD consummated his marriage to Sansa, it wouldn't have mattered. Sansa and Tyrion were both widely believed to have poisoned Joffrey at his own wedding. Given the Red Wedding had just happened, it makes perfect sense to those who don't know Sansa well. Why wouldn't she have killed Joffrey to avenge her family's slaughter? And Tyrion is the perfect kind of monster who would turn on his own family for a power grab and a newfound loyalty to his child bride. 

Tywin's plans were doomed because he, like everyone else in the story (yeah, even Varys) underestimates Littlefinger.

[Megorova]

Wasn't it Littlefinger, who gave an idea to Lannisters to marry Sansa to Tyrion?

He conspired with Tyrells, but he wasn't going to give Sansa to them. Because she was an important part of his own plans. He gave information to Lannisters that Tyrells are planning to take Sansa/the key to The North to Highgarden, and thus, to prevent them from doing that, Lannisters should marry Sansa to Tyrion.

ASOS, Sansa I - "No one can save me but my Florian. Ser Dontos had promised he would help her escape, but not until the night of Joffrey’s wedding. The plans had been well laid, her dear devoted knight-turned-fool assured her; there was nothing to do until then but endure, and count the days."

She was going along with LF's plan (even though at that time she didn't knew who was the mastermind behind that plan), until she found a better option - to go to Highgarden.

ASOS, Sansa II - "When she told Ser Dontos that she was going to Highgarden to marry Willas Tyrell, she thought he would be relieved and pleased for her. Instead he had grabbed her arm and said, “You cannot!” in a voice as thick with horror as with wine. “I tell you, these Tyrells are only Lannisters with flowers. I beg of you, forget this folly, give your Florian a kiss, and promise you’ll go ahead as we have planned. The night of Joffrey’s wedding, that’s not so long, wear the silver hair net and do as I told you, and afterward we make our escape.” He tried to plant a kiss on her cheek.

Sansa slipped from his grasp and stepped away from him. “I won’t. I can’t. Something would go wrong. When I wanted to escape you wouldn’t take me, and now I don’t need to.”

Dontos stared at her stupidly. “But the arrangements are made, sweetling. The ship to take you home, the boat to take you to the ship, your Florian did it all for his sweet Jonquil.”

“I am sorry for all the trouble I put you to,” she said, “but I have no need of boats and ships now.”

“But it’s all to see you safe.”

“I will be safe in Highgarden. Willas will keep me safe.” "

ASOS, Tyrion - "When Lord Tywin nodded, he continued. “And there is this—Lord Petyr continues to demonstrate his loyalty. Only yesterday he brought us word of a Tyrell plot to spirit Sansa Stark off to Highgarden for a ‘visit’ and there marry her to Lord Mace’s eldest son, Willas.”

“Littlefinger brought you word?” Tyrion leaned against the table. “Not our master of whisperers? How interesting.” "

"Ser Loras has taken the white and Ser Garlan is wed to one of the Fossoways, but there remains the eldest son, the boy they scheme to wed to Sansa Stark.”

Willas Tyrell. Tyrion was taking a wicked pleasure in Cersei’s helpless fury. “That would be the cripple,” he said."

" “You mean to wed me to Sansa Stark. But won’t the Tyrells take the match as an affront, if they have designs on the girl?”

“Lord Tyrell will not broach the matter of the Stark girl until after Joffrey’s wedding. If Sansa is wed before that, how can he take offense, when he gave us no hint of his intentions?” " <- that reasoning obviously was given to Tywin by Littlefinger. To Sansa thru Dontos he also said that she will leave King's Landing only after Joffrey's wedding. Why? - > That's because he planned for Sansa to play a role in Joffrey's death, and only then to leave.

By marrying Cersei to Willas Tyrell, Lannisters would have removed a threat of them taking Sansa away. Thus, there was no reason for Lannisters to marry Sansa to someone else. They could have just continued to keep her as their hostage. But for some reason Tywin still decided to marry Sansa to Tyrion. My guess is that Littlefinger persuaded him that it is necessary. And LF's real reason to offer that marriage was for Sansa to get back to the original plan, to escape with Dontos after Joffrey's wedding. And LF also planned not only to take Sansa away, but also to kill Joffrey. And thus he needed a scapegoat, who will take the blame for Joffrey's death, and additional something, that will explain to Lannisters Sansa's disappearance.

For that plan to work, he needed for Sansa to be married with Tyrion, who was supposed to take the blame. That's why Littlefinger gave Tywin an idea to marry Sansa with Tyrion. It wasn't Tywin's own idea.

[nyser1]

21 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Even if Tyrion HAD consummated his marriage to Sansa, it wouldn't have mattered. Sansa and Tyrion were both widely believed to have poisoned Joffrey at his own wedding. Given the Red Wedding had just happened, it makes perfect sense to those who don't know Sansa well. Why wouldn't she have killed Joffrey to avenge her family's slaughter? And Tyrion is the perfect kind of monster who would turn on his own family for a power grab and a newfound loyalty to his child bride. 

Tywin's plans were doomed because he, like everyone else in the story (yeah, even Varys) underestimates Littlefinger.

They may have kept her alive for the pup was born and/or until they had control over the North.

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I don't think Ned would have force married anyone to a member of his family against their will. It's the stupid honorable thing to do, even though there is every single political reason to do the force marriage

Not so sure Ned wouldn't have forced is the wrong word but maybe nuanced a worthy match up.   Look what Jon did with Alys Karstark and Sigorn of Thenn...right under Selyse's nose even.   I would like to have known how Ned would have resolved the matter of Lady Hornwood's urgent need for a marriage.   I wonder if Theon, Robb's best number 1 brother, would have married a Frey girl in Robb's stead.  Not all these political marriages suck.  

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, Lollygag said:

As a Sansa fan, strategically it was a good move. Then again, I don't try to project the height of modern wokeness onto medieval-based fantasy characters. Also, Tyrion had just demanded Casterly Rock and it came to a head that Tyrion was the only one available and Tywin would never, never allow it. Tyrion really never cared for Casterly Rock, he just wanted to be acknowledged as worthy of it. Tossing him Winterfell and Sansa gets him to back off his claim and probably means other Lannisters won't try to put Tyrion in as it seems outside Tywin, Cersei and Joff, Tyrion is quite well-liked among his family.

Adding - yes Westeros discriminates against Tyrion, but if dwarfism really takes in the bloodline, it really reduces the chances they'll hold their position for any real amount of time. Tyrion is smart enough to compensate for this. Dwarf children, grandchildren, etc - there's no guarantees for that. It's also an added problem in the North. Tyrion ain't walking through a light snow of 3'-4' feet.

Agreeing with you completely here and tossing in that Tywin couldn't marry Tyrion off to anyone.  Sansa may have been the only noble woman Tywin could have married to Tyrion for all the endless rejections.  Now, had T+S become a fruitful union there is a chance that their child, if not a dwarf, could have been seen as an heir to Casterly Rock.  I mean Joff was King, surely Tommen would get Dragonstone eventually and Myrcella was already sent off to Dorne.   Who did Tywin expect to become his heir if not Tyrion or Tyrion's child?   

[Lollygag]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Agreeing with you completely here and tossing in that Tywin couldn't marry Tyrion off to anyone.  Sansa may have been the only noble woman Tywin could have married to Tyrion for all the endless rejections.  Now, had T+S become a fruitful union there is a chance that their child, if not a dwarf, could have been seen as an heir to Casterly Rock.  I mean Joff was King, surely Tommen would get Dragonstone eventually and Myrcella was already sent off to Dorne.   Who did Tywin expect to become his heir if not Tyrion or Tyrion's child?   

Most of the characters have glaring and irrational blindnesses and Tywin's was blindnesses were to Jaime and Cersei and the heir to CR issue. In AFFC, he insisted Jaime resign the KG on the same grounds Barristan was dismissed but Jaime refused so until that point, it looks like he was counting on that. I have no idea what he was thinking before the KG tradition was broken with Barristan's dismissal.

As for Tyrion or Tyrion's son...

If you read the extended text beyond just the ASOS III Tyrion chapter cited by Megorova, there's some pretty loud hints mostly via Tyrion that something was wrong with the whole set up. We'll never know for sure, but Tywin's eyes are only described as flecked with gold (greed to the extent he would kill his own blood) when he's seriously thinking of murdering his own family. When Tyrion makes the request for Casterly Rock, Tywin was writing the letters for the Red Wedding, so breaking guest right and king slaying. Why not kin slaying? Tyrion accused Tywin of trying to kill him in the battle against Robb. Tywin, described with gold flecked eyes, wasn't surprised by accusation nor did he deny it.

ASOS Tyrion I Tyrion talks about how the word "never" was "huge, sharp, poisoned", like a sword. Earlier in that chapter, Tywin compares words to swords.

"Some battles are won with swords and spears, others with quills and ravens. Spare me these coy reproaches, Tyrion. I visited your sickbed as often as Maester Ballabar would allow it, when you seemed like to die." He steepled his fingers under his chin. "Why did you dismiss Ballabar?"

...

Lord Tywin's eyes were a pale green flecked with gold, as luminous as they were merciless. "Casterly Rock," he declared in a flat cold dead tone. And then, "Never."

The word hung between them, huge, sharp, poisoned.

 

 

ASOS Tyrion III Note just in this brief passage, Tyrion thinks to himself that there's more than what he's seeing here and it's wrong suggesting to the reader to look deeper. The gold eyes suggest that Tyrion's death was the part of the plan that Tywin didn't tell him. The gold eyes right before being made Master of Coin make me think this was part of the plan somehow. Olenna gave Tyrion a cryptic statement about the accounting in ASOS Tyrion VIII and as the Tyrells, especially Garlan, seemed genuinely fond of Tyrion, I wonder if she wasn't warning him of being framed.

"A Lannister?" Tyrion had a bad feeling about this.

 Lord Tywin's gold-flecked eyes met his son's mismatched ones. "You are admirably suited to the task, I believe."

"Indeed!" Ser Kevan said heartily. "I've no doubt you'll make a splendid master of coin, Tyrion."

...

"If you think your whores want you in their bed, you are an even greater fool than I suspected," said Lord Tywin. "You disappoint me, Tyrion. I had hoped this match would please you."

"Yes, we all know how important my pleasure is to you, Father. But there's more to this. The key to the north, you say? The Greyjoys hold the north now, and King Balon has a daughter. Why Sansa Stark, and not her?" He looked into his father's cool green eyes with their bright flecks of gold.

 

 

AGOT Tyrion IV

"We will ride with you, lion lord," Chella daughter of Cheyk agreed, "but only if your halfman son goes with us. He has bought his breath with promises. Until we hold the steel he has pledged us, his life is ours."

 Lord Tywin turned his gold-flecked eyes on his son.

"Joy," Tyrion said with a resigned smile.

 

 

AGOT Tyrion VIII

He left the living to look after the dead, sent Bronn to take charge of his captive knight, and went alone in search of his father. Lord Tywin was seated by the river, sipping wine from a jeweled cup as his squire undid the fastenings on his breastplate. "A fine victory," Ser Kevan said when he saw Tyrion. "Your wild men fought well."

 His father's eyes were on him, pale green flecked with gold, so cool they gave Tyrion a chill. "Did that surprise you, Father?" he asked. "Did it upset your plans? We were supposed to be butchered, were we not?"

Lord Tywin drained his cup, his face expressionless. "I put the least disciplined men on the left, yes. I anticipated that they would break. Robb Stark is a green boy, more like to be brave than wise. I'd hoped that if he saw our left collapse, he might plunge into the gap, eager for a rout. Once he was fully committed, Ser Kevan's pikes would wheel and take him in the flank, driving him into the river while I brought up the reserve."

"And you thought it best to place me in the midst of this carnage, yet keep me ignorant of your plans."

"A feigned rout is less convincing," his father said, "and I am not inclined to trust my plans to a man who consorts with sellswords and savages."

"A pity my savages ruined your dance." Tyrion pulled off his steel gauntlet and let it fall to the ground, wincing at the pain that stabbed up his arm.

"The Stark boy proved more cautious than I expected for one of his years," Lord Tywin admitted, "but a victory is a victory. You appear to be wounded."

 

 

ASOS Tyrion VI This is after Tyrion is made MoC and engaged to Sansa. I suspect that the original plan was to frame Tyrion with the books (LF suggested the whole plan and Tyrion said he couldn't decipher LF's accounting) but that changed here when it became apparent that Tywin's days of controlling Joff were numbered and he's compared to Aerys' successor rather than Robert's and we get an explanation from Tywin as to why Joff will fail as king (having to say he's the king and not showing mercy). After Joff rebels against Tywin the first time, Tywin then has him literally poisoned with sweet sleep (foreshadowing). Note that words/swords comes up again. Timely if this was the origin of the Purple Wedding. It's worth noting Tywin's own history here. Tywin himself overpowered Tytos when he came of age. It's a role reversal Tywin would find intolerable.

Lord Tywin ignored that; it was Joffrey he addressed. "Aerys also felt the need to remind men that he was king. And he was passing fond of ripping tongues out as well. You could ask Ser Ilyn Payne about that, though you'll get no reply."

"Ser Ilyn never dared provoke Aerys the way your Imp provokes Joff," said Cersei. "You heard him. 'Monster,' he said. To the King's Grace. And he threatened him . . ."

"Be quiet, Cersei. Joffrey, when your enemies defy you, you must serve them steel and fire. When they go to their knees, however, you must help them back to their feet. Elsewise no man will ever bend the knee to you. And any man who must say 'I am the king' is no true king at all. Aerys never understood that, but you will. When I've won your war for you, we will restore the king's peace and the king's justice. The only head that need concern you is Margaery Tyrell's maidenhead."

Joffrey had that sullen, sulky look he got. Cersei had him firmly by the shoulder, but perhaps she should have had him by the throat. The boy surprised them all. Instead of scuttling safely back under his rock, Joff drew himself up defiantly and said, "You talk about Aerys, Grandfather, but you were scared of him."

Oh, my, hasn't this gotten interesting? Tyrion thought.

Lord Tywin studied his grandchild in silence, gold flecks shining in his pale green eyes. "Joffrey, apologize to your grandfather," said Cersei.

He wrenched free of her. "Why should I? Everyone knows it's true. My father won all the battles. He killed Prince Rhaegar and took the crown, while your father was hiding under Casterly Rock." The boy gave his grandfather a defiant look. "A strong king acts boldly, he doesn't just talk."

"Thank you for that wisdom, Your Grace," Lord Tywin said, with a courtesy so cold it was like to freeze their ears off. "Ser Kevan, I can see the king is tired. Please see him safely back to his bedchamber. Pycelle, perhaps some gentle potion to help His Grace sleep restfully?"

...

"Why would he? Robert ignored him. He would have beat him if I'd allowed it. That brute you made me marry once hit the boy so hard he knocked out two of his baby teeth, over some mischief with a cat. I told him I'd kill him in his sleep if he ever did it again, and he never did, but sometimes he would say things . . ."

"It appears things needed to be said." Lord Tywin waved two fingers at her, a brusque dismissal. "Go."

She went, seething.

 "Not Robert the Second," Tyrion said. "Aerys the Third."

"The boy is thirteen. There is time yet." Lord Tywin paced to the window. That was unlike him; he was more upset than he wished to show. "He requires a sharp lesson."

Tyrion had gotten his own sharp lesson at thirteen. He felt almost sorry for his nephew. On the other hand, no one deserved it more. "Enough of Joffrey," he said. "Wars are won with quills and ravens, wasn't that what you said? I must congratulate you. How long have you and Walder Frey been plotting this?"

 

 

So Tywin at least knew about the murder of Joff and Tyrion being framed. He has a well-established history of getting rid of inconvenient family. Also, he disowned Gerion, cut off Genna for a while, and also disowned Jaime when he refused to resign the KG and take CR. Tywin saw Tytos come within a hair of losing CR and he won't let inconvenient family risk this again.

ADWD Tyrion XII

"… and every family has its drooling cousins." Tyrion signed another note. The parchment crinkled crisply as he slid it toward the paymaster. "There are cells down in the bowels of Casterly Rock where my lord father kept the worst of ours."

[Rose of Red Lake]

Like most of his ideas it lacks honor but it also lacks an understanding of people and the way to sway them to his side willingly instead of forcefully, which makes his plans ineffective in the long run.

The North would never accept a Lannister ruling it or taking Winterfell. 

Then there is Robb's will on top of it - if it ever comes out, Robb checked Tywin from the grave.

Tywin didnt understand the North, Starks, or Sansa.

[Lee-Sensei]

9 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So I can already feel the hate train coming towards me, but really think about it. Tywin knows about the Tyrell conspiracy, what is he going to do? Allow her to be married off to the Tyrell just because he's such a nice guy? That's the kind of stupid honorable stuff only Ned would do. He also had the problem of not being able to marry Tyrion to anybody of the proper rank, because the rest of Westeros are discriminatory assholes on the same magnitude as he is, if not bigger, (I mean really for what they know Tyrion is the heir to Casterly Rock, why do they care so much he's a dwarf). So he's shooting all the birds with one stone. He is creating a strong Lannister claim on the North, aka his war enemies, he is marrying of his son and he is preventing the Tyrells from gaining too much power. And what are the reasons for not doing it? Sansa would be miserable? I'm pretty sure the happiness of a prisoner hostage is not really the most important thing for anyone, let alone Tywin. So what do you think?

In theory, but would the Northmen really accept a Lannister ruling the North?

[TheLastWolf]

2 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

In theory, but would the Northmen really accept a Lannister ruling the North?

It can go another way too. Lady Sansa Stark Lannister, Lady of Casterly Rock.

I'm a Stark fan boy and like Tyrion too, but still think that some good will come out of this marriage which was originally intended as a claim and to conveniently finish off many birds with one stone (not only for Tywin but also LF) 

I think that Sansa will finally accept Tyrion as her husband and grow to love him because she has understood that external looks hide ugliness and life is not a fairytale. He was kind to her and this marriage will reconcile the Westerlands and North at the end of the series. 

Same for Jaime. Cersei's a bitch and he is slowly understanding that. He will love Brienne and not give a shit about her looks and she in return..... and there will be a tragic ending for those two. Not Cersei. She will die too, by the valonqar who ever/whatever it is, but she'll not die with Jaime as she expects/wants. 

P. S. I have an idea that the valonqar is the youngest dragon of  Dany and it will cause the eruption of Dragonstone and the above said characters will did there(not Sansa and Tyrion) The Painted Table will go the way of the Round Table of King Arthur and its destruction will symbolically split the kingdoms back into 7. Then it's QUEEN SANSA to us. 

[frenin]

4 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

The North would never accept a Lannister ruling it or taking Winterfell. 

Maybe a Lannister, if that mean having Ned's daughter in the deal.

Tyrion is seen as a joke and as an insult however by all the Realm, Robb himself isn't motivated by the fact that a Lannister might rule Winterfell but the fact that the dwarf might rule Winterfell. 

[Rose of Red Lake]

5 hours ago, frenin said:

Maybe a Lannister, if that mean having Ned's daughter in the deal.

Tyrion is seen as a joke and as an insult however by all the Realm, Robb himself isn't motivated by the fact that a Lannister might rule Winterfell but the fact that the dwarf might rule Winterfell. 

Robb says they'll kill Sansa after she has an heir so he knows that the plan is more than that.