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The Sansa-Tyrion marriage was a very good idea on Tywin's behalf


Alyn Oakenfist

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2 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Robb says they'll kill Sansa after she has an heir so he knows that the plan is more than that.

No, they wouldn't. They need Sansa's legitimacy to help install themselves there.

 

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1 minute ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Doesn't vmatter; He doesn't want a son or daughter of Lannister running the place. You said it was just about a dwarf. Its not.

He doesn't want Tyrion being there, and people don't want a dwarf being there.

 

 

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It was a good idea...ingenious actually.

But it was disgusting (I don't see any difference between forcing a marriage on someone, a case of rape/kidnapping and sexual slavery). It actually reminds me of the ethnic cleansing from the Bosnian War of the 90s.

Not only is it disgusting but it was doomed to fail because it was a disgusting act of war. Only marginally better than the Red Wedding. It would have never worked. The Northmen would never allow Tyrion to be Lord of Winterfell nor would they ever acknowledge the validity of such a marriage. As soon as they got into Winterfell, they'd just as easily kill him, name any child he fathered on Sansa a bastard and let Sansa rule as a Stark.

A lot of people really like Tyrion but Tyrion (who knows the Northmen, the Starks and Sansa better than any other Lannister) was an abhorrently delusional and selfish idiot if he ever thought there'd be a snowball's chance in hell that he had a chance.

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15 hours ago, Lollygag said:

"The boy is thirteen. There is time yet." Lord Tywin paced to the window. That was unlike him; he was more upset than he wished to show. "He requires a sharp lesson."

If LF didn't kidnapped Sansa and Varys didn't released Tyrion, then both of them, most likely, would have been executed. With fake-Arya, married to a Bolton, who was loyal to Tywin, Lannisters didn't actually needed Sansa. And with Tyrion dead, and Cersei married to Willas Tyrell, and Myrcella married to Tristan Martell, there would have been no choice for Jaime except quitting Kingsguards, like his father wanted, and going to Casterly Rock to become Tywin's heir.

Furthermore, it seems that Tywin didn't wanted to give any power (or more power) to Tyrells, they were already seriously bothering him with their demands, and that was even prior Margaery's wedding with Joffrey. Probably, he was afraid that if Margaery will become the Queen, then Tywin and Lannisters will be pushed away from the sourse of power, and it will be overtaken by Tyrells. So, it seems likely, that he eventually realised that that marriage between Joff and Marge is a really bad idea. And thus he agreed to LF's plan to poison Joffrey, and that way also would have gotten rid of Tyrells. It seems that after Joffrey's death, he was not Ok with Tyrells' demands to marry Margaery to Tommen.

So, do you think that Tywin was aware of LF's plan to poison Joffrey and to blame Tyrion and Sansa for it? Also, that Tywin was Ok with killing Tyrion, not only after the Purple Wedding, but even before that. It seems that your post, chosen by you quotes, implied it.

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2 hours ago, Megorova said:

If LF didn't kidnapped Sansa and Varys didn't released Tyrion, then both of them, most likely, would have been executed. With fake-Arya, married to a Bolton, who was loyal to Tywin, Lannisters didn't actually needed Sansa. And with Tyrion dead, and Cersei married to Willas Tyrell, and Myrcella married to Tristan Martell, there would have been no choice for Jaime except quitting Kingsguards, like his father wanted, and going to Casterly Rock to become Tywin's heir.

Furthermore, it seems that Tywin didn't wanted to give any power (or more power) to Tyrells, they were already seriously bothering him with their demands, and that was even prior Margaery's wedding with Joffrey. Probably, he was afraid that if Margaery will become the Queen, then Tywin and Lannisters will be pushed away from the sourse of power, and it will be overtaken by Tyrells. So, it seems likely, that he eventually realised that that marriage between Joff and Marge is a really bad idea. And thus he agreed to LF's plan to poison Joffrey, and that way also would have gotten rid of Tyrells. It seems that after Joffrey's death, he was not Ok with Tyrells' demands to marry Margaery to Tommen.

So, do you think that Tywin was aware of LF's plan to poison Joffrey and to blame Tyrion and Sansa for it? Also, that Tywin was Ok with killing Tyrion, not only after the Purple Wedding, but even before that. It seems that your post, chosen by you quotes, implied it.

Hmm. I can't really speak to the Tyrells right now. They suddenly started getting on with the Martells which was odd to say the least so something was evolving there. Tyrion also noted something was up with Tywin and them, so I don't know. I'm sure there's hints to be found with careful reading.

Joff had to marry someone - that was inevitable - and it had to be to someone from a major house to help hold the throne like how any force which moved against Robert also moved against Tywin. The problems of getting another family involved are just par for the course.

FArya was only a placeholder to buy time and the Boltons aren't truly loyal to the Lannisters nor the North to them. Arya looked like Ned and too many Northerners had seen her, so it was only a matter of time. Even Jaime who hadn't seen Arya much and then for some time knew right away Jeyne wasn't Arya. So Sansa was still necessary. FArya was LF's idea (he had Jeyne) and we know that he intends to prop up Sansa. It was designed to fail, hopefully at a time of LF's choosing.

Bold: Yeah, you read that correctly. I think Tywin was in on Joff's murder and Tyrion's frame up (more text to that below), so it follows that Tywin knew about Sansa's innocence and was in on LF's getting her out of KL to keep her from the Tyrells after Tyrion's execution, away from Cersei and away from anyone else with designs on Winterfell. Tyrion noted that the wedding attendance and movement of the guests was unusually strictly controlled and it raises the question of why LF was exempted from all of this.

Sorry for the quote bomb. Some things to look for here:

  • Jaime taking Casterly Rock was always a matter of Jaime's choice and circumstances allowing. Now circumstances allow, but Jaime, who strongly implies that his being heir is something Tywin brings up a lot and he never listens. Jaime refuses and at last, he gets through to Tywin that his decision is final.
  • The question is raised whether Tywin would kill his own son. The conversation ends with Tywin telling Jaime that he is not his son. (Question answered).
  • Jaime's final refusal on top of what appears to be many underscores how close to CR Tyrion really is. Motive for Tywin.
  • Jaime constantly questions Tyrion doing something so stupid and that this doesn't fly if one knows Tyrion. Jaime himself repeatedly compares Joff's death to Renly's. Renly also loomed large during the PW through a song sung, and we later see Joff laid out in his armor. But like Renly, we can't see inside that armor.
  • Tywin gets very short when sorcery is brought up and changes the subject sure to get Jaime off-track. He reads like someone sticking to a script.

 

ASOS Jaime VII

"The few who stayed at Harrenhal are dead. The others scattered. They'll make for ports, I'll warrant, or try and lose themselves in the woods." His eyes went back to Jaime's stump, and his mouth grew taut with fury. "We'll have their heads. Every one. Can you use a sword with your left hand?"

I can hardly dress myself in the morning. Jaime held up the hand in question for his father's inspection. "Four fingers, a thumb, much like the other. Why shouldn't it work as well?"

"Good." His father sat. "That is good. I have a gift for you. For your return. After Varys told me . . ."

"Unless it's a new hand, let it wait." Jaime took the chair across from him. "How did Joffrey die?"

"Poison. It was meant to appear as though he choked on a morsel of food, but I had his throat slit open and the maesters could find no obstruction."

"Cersei claims that Tyrion did it."

"Your brother served the king the poisoned wine, with a thousand people looking on."

"That was rather foolish of him."

"I have taken Tyrion's squire into custody. His wife's maids as well. We shall see if they have anything to tell us. Ser Addam's gold cloaks are searching for the Stark girl, and Varys has offered a reward. The king's justice will be done."

The king's justice. "You would execute your own son?"

"He stands accused of regicide and kinslaying. If he is innocent, he has nothing to fear. First we must needs consider the evidence for and against him."

Evidence. In this city of liars, Jaime knew what sort of evidence would be found. "Renly died strangely as well, when Stannis needed him to."

"Lord Renly was murdered by one of his own guards, some woman from Tarth."

"That woman from Tarth is the reason I'm here. I tossed her into a cell to appease Ser Loras, but I'll believe in Renly's ghost before I believe she did him any harm. But Stannis—"

"It was poison that killed Joffrey, not sorcery." Lord Tywin glanced at Jaime's stump again. "You cannot serve in the Kingsguard without a sword hand—"

"I can," he interrupted. "And I will. There's precedent. I'll look in the White Book and find it, if you like. Crippled or whole, a knight of the Kingsguard serves for life."

"Cersei ended that when she replaced Ser Barristan on grounds of age. A suitable gift to the Faith will persuade the High Septon to release you from your vows. Your sister was foolish to dismiss Selmy, admittedly, but now that she has opened the gates—"

"—someone needs to close them again." Jaime stood. "I am tired of having highborn women kicking pails of shit at me, Father. No one ever asked me if I wanted to be Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, but it seems I am. I have a duty—"

"You do." Lord Tywin rose as well. "A duty to House Lannister. You are the heir to Casterly Rock. That is where you should be. Tommen should accompany you, as your ward and squire. The Rock is where he'll learn to be a Lannister, and I want him away from his mother. I mean to find a new husband for Cersei. Oberyn Martell perhaps, once I convince Lord Tyrell that the match does not threaten Highgarden. And it is past time you were wed. The Tyrells are now insisting that Margaery be wed to Tommen, but if I were to offer you instead—"

"NO!" Jaime had heard all that he could stand. No, more than he could stand. He was sick of it, sick of lords and lies, sick of his father, his sister, sick of the whole bloody business. "No. No. No. No. No. How many times must I say no before you'll hear it? Oberyn Martell? The man's infamous, and not just for poisoning his sword. He has more bastards than Robert, and beds with boys as well. And if you think for one misbegotten moment that I would wed Joffrey's widow . . ."

"Lord Tyrell swears the girl's still maiden."

"She can die a maiden as far as I'm concerned. I don't want her, and I don't want your Rock!"

"You are my son—"

"I am a knight of the Kingsguard. The Lord Commander of the Kingsguard! And that's all I mean to be!"

Firelight gleamed golden in the stiff whiskers that framed Lord Tywin's face. A vein pulsed in his neck, but he did not speak. And did not speak. And did not speak.

The strained silence went on until it was more than Jaime could endure. "Father . . ." he began.

"You are not my son." Lord Tywin turned his face away. "You say you are the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, and only that. Very well, ser. Go do your duty."

 

Fair warning. Here's where I go off deep into crackpotdom.

Joff is constantly compared to Renly who was killed with sorcery and Tywin gets very short when sorcery comes up. During the PW, Ilyn Payne has a new sword that we've never seen before or since. It's a decidely odd sword for a Lannister as it's very Old Gody. This is underscored by Sansa suddenly paying attention and bringing up Ice. It really looks like this sword was part of the plan and Marg was acting a part.

  • Ilyn Payne here sounds much like a ghost of Winterfell or the old kings in the crypts
  • Like Ice, this sword is six feet-ish. Ceremonial. We see Ice used in ceremonial executions. Marg said Widow's Wail was not for cutting pies. Neither was this sword.
  • Glyphs are linked to Valyria. Runes are referenced when it comes to CotF, North, old god stuff.
  • Bright silver implies a light color. Ice-colored.
  • A grinning skull made of dragonglass and we have the red eyes of the faces in the weirwood. It's an odd combination. Not sure what it means.
  • If the original Ice is somewhere in the current story, this is it.

 

ASOS Tyrion VIII

King Joffrey and his queen met the pie below the dais. As Joff drew his sword, Margaery laid a hand on his arm to restrain him. "Widow's Wail was not meant for slicing pies."

"True." Joffrey lifted his voice. "Ser Ilyn, your sword!"

From the shadows at the back of the hall, Ser Ilyn Payne appeared. The specter at the feast, thought Tyrion as he watched the King's Justice stride forward, gaunt and grim. He had been too young to have known Ser Ilyn before he'd lost his tongue. He would have been a different man in those days, but now the silence is as much a part of him as those hollow eyes, that rusty chainmail shirt, and the greatsword on his back.

Ser Ilyn bowed before the king and queen, reached back over his shoulder, and drew forth six feet of ornate silver bright with runes. He knelt to offer the huge blade to Joffrey, hilt first; points of red fire winked from ruby eyes on the pommel, a chunk of dragonglass carved in the shape of a grinning skull.

Sansa stirred in her seat. "What sword is that?"

Tyrion's eyes still stung from the wine. He blinked and looked again. Ser Ilyn's greatsword was as long and wide as Ice, but it was too silvery-bright; Valyrian steel had a darkness to it, a smokiness in its soul. Sansa clutched his arm. "What has Ser Ilyn done with my father's sword?"

I should have sent Ice back to Robb Stark, Tyrion thought. He glanced at his father, but Lord Tywin was watching the king.

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37 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Tommen should accompany you, as your ward and squire. The Rock is where he'll learn to be a Lannister, and I want him away from his mother. I mean to find a new husband for Cersei. Oberyn Martell perhaps, once I convince Lord Tyrell that the match does not threaten Highgarden. And it is past time you were wed. The Tyrells are now insisting that Margaery be wed to Tommen, but if I were to offer you instead—"

So, if everything went according to Tywin's plan, if Jaime didn't opposed him, then Cersei would have married with Oberyn, Jaime with Margaery, and Tommen would have went with Jaime to Casterly Rock. It seems that Tywin was going in one way or the other to get rid of all other people that were near Iron Throne. To send away Jaime, Tommen, Cersei, even Margaery, and Littlefinger. To execute Tyrion, and maybe Sansa too. As result of that, Tywin would have remained alone at the Red Keep, and became an acting ruler of 7K. That's what he always wanted, since Aerys' times.

48 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Joff is constantly compared to Renly who was killed with sorcery and Tywin gets very short when sorcery comes up. During the PW, Ilyn Payne has a new sword that we've never seen before or since. It's a decidely odd sword for a Lannister as it's very Old Gody. This is underscored by Sansa suddenly paying attention and bringing up Ice. It really looks like this sword was part of the plan and Marg was acting a part.

You think that that sword is somehow relevant for Joffrey's death?

Something like, maybe, the blade was covered with poison (on one side of it), and from the blade the poison got on the pie (on one side of a pie's wedge), and then Joff ate a piece of it, even before he ate a piece of Tyrion's pie, and washed it down with wine from his chalice. And the wine became purple not because one of Sansa's gemstones was dropped there (it actually wasn't a poison), but because Joffrey, when he was drinking from that cup, transfered the poison from his lips on the cup and into the wine, sort of like cross-pollution.

If Tywin was aware that Littlefinger was going to take Sansa away from the Red Keep, and to bring her with him to The Vale, then maybe Sansa's hair-net with supposedly poisonous gemstones was used as a "red herring", to make Tyrells think that they took an active part in Joffrey's death, and to make Sansa think that she absolutely can't go back to King's Landing, or anywhere away from Littlefinger, because everyone (including herself) thought that she took part in Joffrey's poisoning. And later Tywin could have hinted to Tyrells that he knows what they did, about that hair-net, that he knows that they poisoned Joffrey (even though the real poisoner was actually Illyn). That way Tywin could have blackmailed and intimidated Tyrells, using what Tyrells thought they supposedly did, as a leverage against them.

So, could be that the poison was not in the wine, it was in the pie. Though not in Tyrion's pie, like some readers think, but in the Big pie, it was applied there by Illyn's weird sword, and it was done on Tywin's order. And that's what Tywin meant by that "sharp lesson" for Joffrey.

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47 minutes ago, Megorova said:

So, if everything went according to Tywin's plan, if Jaime didn't opposed him, then Cersei would have married with Oberyn, Jaime with Margaery, and Tommen would have went with Jaime to Casterly Rock. It seems that Tywin was going in one way or the other to get rid of all other people that were near Iron Throne. To send away Jaime, Tommen, Cersei, even Margaery, and Littlefinger. To execute Tyrion, and maybe Sansa too. As result of that, Tywin would have remained alone at the Red Keep, and became an acting ruler of 7K. That's what he always wanted, since Aerys' times.

Yeah, something like that though wasn't Cersei supposed to marry Willas? I think a lot of Tywin was molded by watching Tytos come within a hair of ruining everything so getting rid of anyone Tytosy who could screw things up with Jaime holding down CR. Ironically, Tywin in his bid to control everything made the super-controllable Tommen who straight up takes after Tytos into the king. More blind spots.

 

47 minutes ago, Megorova said:

You think that that sword is somehow relevant for Joffrey's death?

Something like, maybe, the blade was covered with poison (on one side of it), and from the blade the poison got on the pie (on one side of a pie's wedge), and then Joff ate a piece of it, even before he ate a piece of Tyrion's pie, and washed it down with wine from his chalice. And the wine became purple not because one of Sansa's gemstones was dropped there (it actually wasn't a poison), but because Joffrey, when he was drinking from that cup, transfered the poison from his lips on the cup and into the wine, sort of like cross-pollution.

If Tywin was aware that Littlefinger was going to take Sansa away from the Red Keep, and to bring her with him to The Vale, then maybe Sansa's hair-net with supposedly poisonous gemstones was used as a "red herring", to make Tyrells think that they took an active part in Joffrey's death, and to make Sansa think that she absolutely can't go back to King's Landing, or anywhere away from Littlefinger, because everyone (including herself) thought that she took part in Joffrey's poisoning. And later Tywin could have hinted to Tyrells that he knows what they did, about that hair-net, that he knows that they poisoned Joffrey (even though the real poisoner was actually Illyn). That way Tywin could have blackmailed and intimidated Tyrells, using what Tyrells thought they supposedly did, as a leverage against them.

So, could be that the poison was not in the wine, it was in the pie. Though not in Tyrion's pie, like some readers think, but in the Big pie, it was applied there by Illyn's weird sword, and it was done on Tywin's order. And that's what Tywin meant by that "sharp lesson" for Joffrey.

I do think it's relevant, but the poison is too (I think Tyrion's eyes stinging is important). We have sorcery repeatedly referenced, the magic-laden sword and that poison wasn't from Dorne, the more logical choice, but from the Asshai of all places. Because both the poison and sword are heavily linked to magic, it's harder to logic out how it was done. Magic doesn't need to follow the same rules that a standard non-magical poison would. That poison is linked to fire magic and add sword linked to ice...Is that maybe a magically volatile combination? If I had to guess, the mix of fire + ice triggered something.

Bold: This sounds possible though I do believe that they were real poison. It works either way. I can see where there's a lot of layers and possibilities here for who was playing what angle and how much anyone knew. (Resisting the urge to go scribble huge charts on my walls).

I do think that was what was hinted at when Tywin said "sharp lesson". Also were the references to words/swords from the Red Wedding, and Tywin's solution to Joff acting out was poisoning him with sweetsleep (another reason I think both were part of it). As the text is clear that Tywin is very uncertain in that moment, I don't think he'd decided yet at that point in time, but there are big hints to the reader telling us where he'd end up upon thinking about the situation more.

Narratively, I'll add that Joff used Ilyn Payne to kill Ned with Ice, and if that sword is the original Ice, Illyn Payne used it to kill Joff. Heh.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 7/26/2020 at 9:53 AM, BlackLightning said:

It was a good idea...ingenious actually.

But it was disgusting (I don't see any difference between forcing a marriage on someone, a case of rape/kidnapping and sexual slavery). It actually reminds me of the ethnic cleansing from the Bosnian War of the 90s.

Not only is it disgusting but it was doomed to fail because it was a disgusting act of war. Only marginally better than the Red Wedding. It would have never worked. The Northmen would never allow Tyrion to be Lord of Winterfell nor would they ever acknowledge the validity of such a marriage. As soon as they got into Winterfell, they'd just as easily kill him, name any child he fathered on Sansa a bastard and let Sansa rule as a Stark.

A lot of people really like Tyrion but Tyrion (who knows the Northmen, the Starks and Sansa better than any other Lannister) was an abhorrently delusional and selfish idiot if he ever thought there'd be a snowball's chance in hell that he had a chance.

the marriage was for Winterfell more than it was for Sansa Stark. sansa was just the tool for the job.  Tyrion also reasons against the marriage as much as he can. 
 he wondered why he was not arranged a marriage to Asha Greyjoy as they share a common enemy to seal an alliance. anyhow, he had no real options in the matter of whom he should marry. Sansa was clearly the better option. his mind dwells on Shae. Both Cercie and Tyrion are forced into marriage. had he gotten Sansa pregnant, he would have legitimacy by blood, assuming Robbs will disinheriting Sansa never surfaces. 

he was given choices, the reward he wanted was casterly rock, but Tywin sees this to his advantage and prompts tyrion to see Winterfell as his reward. of course he is not ignorant of the situation, the Greyjoys have control of Winterfell at the time of this arrangement, and he points to that very flaw in securing Winterfell as it is not in their possession to Tywin. 

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On 8/3/2020 at 8:34 PM, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

the marriage was for Winterfell more than it was for Sansa Stark. sansa was just the tool for the job.  Tyrion also reasons against the marriage as much as he can. 
 he wondered why he was not arranged a marriage to Asha Greyjoy as they share a common enemy to seal an alliance. anyhow, he had no real options in the matter of whom he should marry. Sansa was clearly the better option. his mind dwells on Shae. Both Cercie and Tyrion are forced into marriage. had he gotten Sansa pregnant, he would have legitimacy by blood, assuming Robbs will disinheriting Sansa never surfaces. 

he was given choices, the reward he wanted was casterly rock, but Tywin sees this to his advantage and prompts tyrion to see Winterfell as his reward. of course he is not ignorant of the situation, the Greyjoys have control of Winterfell at the time of this arrangement, and he points to that very flaw in securing Winterfell as it is not in their possession to Tywin. 

What's your point?

There's no point in whitewashing Tyrion. We know his thoughts and they are selfish. Tyrion's protestations are logical but the true reason why he protests is because he doesn't want to agree with his father and he wants to look better than his father. Tyrion secretly wants Winterfell and Sansa both.

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8 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

What's your point?

There's no point in whitewashing Tyrion. We know his thoughts and they are selfish. Tyrion's protestations are logical but the true reason why he protests is because he doesn't want to agree with his father and he wants to look better than his father. Tyrion secretly wants Winterfell and Sansa both.

In defence of a Tyrion, most of these characters are somewhat selfish and entitled. The majority of them are aristocrats.

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On 8/3/2020 at 6:34 PM, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

the marriage was for Winterfell more than it was for Sansa Stark. sansa was just the tool for the job.  Tyrion also reasons against the marriage as much as he can. 
 he wondered why he was not arranged a marriage to Asha Greyjoy as they share a common enemy to seal an alliance. anyhow, he had no real options in the matter of whom he should marry. Sansa was clearly the better option. his mind dwells on Shae. Both Cercie and Tyrion are forced into marriage. had he gotten Sansa pregnant, he would have legitimacy by blood, assuming Robbs will disinheriting Sansa never surfaces. 

he was given choices, the reward he wanted was casterly rock, but Tywin sees this to his advantage and prompts tyrion to see Winterfell as his reward. of course he is not ignorant of the situation, the Greyjoys have control of Winterfell at the time of this arrangement, and he points to that very flaw in securing Winterfell as it is not in their possession to Tywin. 

Did Tyrion mention marrying Asha? I don’t remember that.

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5 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Did Tyrion mention marrying Asha? I don’t remember that.

yes. in the conversation where he is forced into marriage after Cercie.

Here it is:

“Yes, we all know how important my pleasure is to you, Father. But there’s more to this. The key to the north, you say? The Greyjoys hold the north    now, and King Balon has a daughter. Why Sansa Stark, and not her?” He looked into his father’s cool green eyes with their    bright flecks of gold.

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