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Will The Slave Rebellion in Essos End Like That of Spartacus?


The Sunland Lord

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On 7/31/2020 at 8:55 PM, Mordred said:

The sons of the harpy will not all be killed but they will be greatly reduced in population, their wealth reduced, and will be suppressed.  The slaves will be free and they will become the majority.  The Free People of Meereen will get to decide on how to govern themselves.  They will stumble along the way like every people had to.  But the important thing is they are free. 

It is no small accomplishment to free a half-million slaves.  Anybody who does that has done a great service to humanity and should rightly be considered a heroine in Dany's case.  Dany the Moses could choose to march the ones who want to leave out of Meereen and build a new city.  Like the biblical exodus.  The ones who stay behind can enforce the law against slavery.

Making slaves free gives them an opportunity.  It does not mean the liberator has to hand feed them and solve all of their problems.  The people will have to make their own choices.  Some of those choices will be terrible.  That is part of growing pains.  They will pay for the consequences of those bad decisions and will hopefully learn over the years. 

This is the advantage for the heroes in Essos.  The slaves outnumber their owners.  The South was not like that at all.  Having the majority will make all of the difference after the slaves become free. 

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Seriously, telling us what's going to happen in a fictional world which is most likely never going to be covered by the author is silly - even more so at a point where we have no clue how the slavery situation is going to be resolved within the story at hand.

That is treating literature as reality and independent from an author telling stories in said fictional world.

And as a lot of people pointed out already, including myself - former slaves can kiss slavery goodbye for good as the history of Braavos shows.

The founders of Braavos lived in a world where slavery was everywhere - ingrained and an integral part of the society they lived in. They even stuck with Valyrian - the language of the slavemongering Freehold - as their own tongue. Yet somehow they were able to overcome slavery and build a new society without continuing slavery.

Meaning that the same thing will be possible in any of the slaver cities if the author wills it.

And there is practically no chance that George R. R. Martin - who already gave us his views on American slavery in Fevre Dream - is going to close ASoIaF on the note that the likes of fucking Xaro Xhoan Daxos are right. These slave apologists are wrong, and the slavery story will end on that note.

And as I keep saying - Ghiscari culture in Slaver's Bay and adjacent places sucks, hence the idea that the cities there will be destroyed and the lands depopulated by plague and migration to other places - Volantis and Westeros, basically - so that nobody is going to live there anymore.

The Free Cities are not as rotten as the Ghiscari, there is a good chance that bloody revolutions there will usher in a new area. We already know that the Volatenes know how revolutions and uprisings can change the overall policy of the society (when the elephants violently cast down the tigers).

And it is not that especially a place like Volantis - which is in decline right now - could not massively profit from immigration and a changed economy where slavery no longer is an issue but people actually have to paid handsomely for their jobs.

Some people delude themselves into believing Westeros will eventually get some sort of proto-democratic framework - which is nonsense. But Volantis is already pretty much an aristocratic republic. The end of slavery could also include citizenship and voting rights for all, turning the Freehold of Volantis into the Republic of Volantis. It could end up being more democratic than Braavos (which, to our knowledge, elects a Sealord who serves for life).

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Seriously, telling us what's going to happen in a fictional world which is most likely never going to be covered by the author is silly - even more so at a point where we have no clue how the slavery situation is going to be resolved within the story at hand.

That is treating literature as reality and independent from an author telling stories in said fictional world.

And as a lot of people pointed out already, including myself - former slaves can kiss slavery goodbye for good as the history of Braavos shows.

The founders of Braavos lived in a world where slavery was everywhere - ingrained and an integral part of the society they lived in. They even stuck with Valyrian - the language of the slavemongering Freehold - as their own tongue. Yet somehow they were able to overcome slavery and build a new society without continuing slavery.

Meaning that the same thing will be possible in any of the slaver cities if the author wills it.

And there is practically no chance that George R. R. Martin - who already gave us his views on American slavery in Fevre Dream - is going to close ASoIaF on the note that the likes of fucking Xaro Xhoan Daxos are right. These slave apologists are wrong, and the slavery story will end on that note.

And as I keep saying - Ghiscari culture in Slaver's Bay and adjacent places sucks, hence the idea that the cities there will be destroyed and the lands depopulated by plague and migration to other places - Volantis and Westeros, basically - so that nobody is going to live there anymore.

The Free Cities are not as rotten as the Ghiscari, there is a good chance that bloody revolutions there will usher in a new area. We already know that the Volatenes know how revolutions and uprisings can change the overall policy of the society (when the elephants violently cast down the tigers).

And it is not that especially a place like Volantis - which is in decline right now - could not massively profit from immigration and a changed economy where slavery no longer is an issue but people actually have to paid handsomely for their jobs.

Some people delude themselves into believing Westeros will eventually get some sort of proto-democratic framework - which is nonsense. But Volantis is already pretty much an aristocratic republic. The end of slavery could also include citizenship and voting rights for all, turning the Freehold of Volantis into the Republic of Volantis. It could end up being more democratic than Braavos (which, to our knowledge, elects a Sealord who serves for life).

Exactly.

I also want to point out that the slave apologists and the naysayers need to take a deep breath and step back so that they can see the whole thing clearly. There is time enough for Daenerys Targaryen and her allies to abolish slavery (even if it means attacking and destroying to defiant cities and individuals) and then introduce a new socioeconomic/sociopolitical system to Essos before leaving for Westeros.

Remember: there will be five POV characters in Essos in The Winds of Winter. Five. That's a lot considering that the first book had eight POVs with five of those eight POVs revolving around the deteriorating situations in the Seven Kingdoms.

And there's not even a guarantee that all five POV characters will be returning to Westeros in the finale that is A Dream of Spring. One POV may actually stay in Essos (or another POV may spring forth) to deal with any remaining loose ends and to provide information on how the Long Night affects Essos.

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On 8/2/2020 at 5:56 AM, Myrish Lace said:

We already know how that story ends - we see it play out in Astapor. Dany leaves. Slaves, freedmen and others kill each other to determine who get to lead. Then slavers' punitive expedition beats the crap out of survivors and restores old order.

There won't be any slaver/master expeditions of any significance after the slaves revolt.  Not if the slaves kill all of their masters.  Which is their right to do.  It would not even have to be all of the masters.  Just all of the males among the masters who are old and fit enough to fight.  But it does not have to happen this way.  The masters could do what is right and release their slaves and make a commitment to never make any attempts to bring back slavery.  Those who choose to continue their slaving will be killed by their own slaves.  As far as freedmen killing each other to determine who gets to lead, well, that is the way it is in Westeros and other places too.  Aren't the Stark, Baratheon, and Lannister knuckleheads killing each other (worse killing smallfolk) in order to decide which of them would lead.  It will be difficult for a while but they will eventually figure it out on their own.  And that is a lot better than slavery.  At least the freedmen gets a chance to figure it out on their own, to find a system which works best for them.  Something they never got to do when they were slaves.  The ex-slave population will make up the majority of the people.  Assistance will come from sources like Braavos and the church of R'hllor to help the ex-slaves.  

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On 8/3/2020 at 7:48 PM, BlackLightning said:

Exactly.

I also want to point out that the slave apologists and the naysayers need to take a deep breath and step back so that they can see the whole thing clearly. There is time enough for Daenerys Targaryen and her allies to abolish slavery (even if it means attacking and destroying to defiant cities and individuals) and then introduce a new socioeconomic/sociopolitical system to Essos before leaving for Westeros.

Remember: there will be five POV characters in Essos in The Winds of Winter. Five. That's a lot considering that the first book had eight POVs with five of those eight POVs revolving around the deteriorating situations in the Seven Kingdoms.

And there's not even a guarantee that all five POV characters will be returning to Westeros in the finale that is A Dream of Spring. One POV may actually stay in Essos (or another POV may spring forth) to deal with any remaining loose ends and to provide information on how the Long Night affects Essos.

:)

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On 8/3/2020 at 11:00 PM, Lord Varys said:

Seriously, telling us what's going to happen in a fictional world which is most likely never going to be covered by the author is silly - even more so at a point where we have no clue how the slavery situation is going to be resolved within the story at hand.

That is treating literature as reality and independent from an author telling stories in said fictional world.

And as a lot of people pointed out already, including myself - former slaves can kiss slavery goodbye for good as the history of Braavos shows.

The founders of Braavos lived in a world where slavery was everywhere - ingrained and an integral part of the society they lived in. They even stuck with Valyrian - the language of the slavemongering Freehold - as their own tongue. Yet somehow they were able to overcome slavery and build a new society without continuing slavery.

Meaning that the same thing will be possible in any of the slaver cities if the author wills it.

And there is practically no chance that George R. R. Martin - who already gave us his views on American slavery in Fevre Dream - is going to close ASoIaF on the note that the likes of fucking Xaro Xhoan Daxos are right. These slave apologists are wrong, and the slavery story will end on that note.

And as I keep saying - Ghiscari culture in Slaver's Bay and adjacent places sucks, hence the idea that the cities there will be destroyed and the lands depopulated by plague and migration to other places - Volantis and Westeros, basically - so that nobody is going to live there anymore.

The Free Cities are not as rotten as the Ghiscari, there is a good chance that bloody revolutions there will usher in a new area. We already know that the Volatenes know how revolutions and uprisings can change the overall policy of the society (when the elephants violently cast down the tigers).

And it is not that especially a place like Volantis - which is in decline right now - could not massively profit from immigration and a changed economy where slavery no longer is an issue but people actually have to paid handsomely for their jobs.

Some people delude themselves into believing Westeros will eventually get some sort of proto-democratic framework - which is nonsense. But Volantis is already pretty much an aristocratic republic. The end of slavery could also include citizenship and voting rights for all, turning the Freehold of Volantis into the Republic of Volantis. It could end up being more democratic than Braavos (which, to our knowledge, elects a Sealord who serves for life).

I am 99.9% certain that Xaro Xhoan Doxas is not speaking for Martin, when he gives his justification for slavery to Daenerys.  The man is a sophist.

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As I have already stated: Daenerys tried to do too much, too soon. She should have replaced slavery with colonate or with feudalism; as it is, there is almost no chance that her attempt to free slaves will result in anything but societal collapse. And I think that might be the point Martin is trying to make: yes, slavery is evil; but just because you know something has to be ended, does not mean that you know how to continue.

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13 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

There won't be any slaver/master expeditions of any significance after the slaves revolt. 

Correction: there won't be any punitive expeditions of any significance IF slaves suddenly seize control everywhere, as opposed to 1 (one) city in the entire region they are currently holding. Considering that by this point they have lost one of their cities and the second one is under siege, that does not seem likely in any way shape or form.

13 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

As far as freedmen killing each other to determine who gets to lead, well, that is the way it is in Westeros and other places too

As destructive as Westerosi struggles are, they do not lead to complete collapse like in Astapor.  So obviously it's not "the way it is" in Westeros, or any other place for that matter.

13 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

Assistance will come from sources like Braavos and the church of R'hllor to help the ex-slaves.  

Over the course of millennia. neither Braavos nor the cult of the Red God have done anything for the benefit of slaves in Slavers' bay. Braavosi themselves may be free, but they have coexisted and even aligned themselves with slaver cities for centuries. Benerro may speak in support of Dany, but so did Cleon.

There is no reason to believe either party is going to do anything to benefit anyone but themselves in the future.

 

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20 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

There won't be any slaver/master expeditions of any significance after the slaves revolt.  Not if the slaves kill all of their masters.  Which is their right to do.  It would not even have to be all of the masters.  Just all of the males among the masters who are old and fit enough to fight.  But it does not have to happen this way.  The masters could do what is right and release their slaves and make a commitment to never make any attempts to bring back slavery.  Those who choose to continue their slaving will be killed by their own slaves.  As far as freedmen killing each other to determine who gets to lead, well, that is the way it is in Westeros and other places too.  Aren't the Stark, Baratheon, and Lannister knuckleheads killing each other (worse killing smallfolk) in order to decide which of them would lead.  It will be difficult for a while but they will eventually figure it out on their own.  And that is a lot better than slavery.  At least the freedmen gets a chance to figure it out on their own, to find a system which works best for them.  Something they never got to do when they were slaves.  The ex-slave population will make up the majority of the people.  Assistance will come from sources like Braavos and the church of R'hllor to help the ex-slaves.  

There it is.  The masters always have that choice.  It is their fault for choosing to fight for slavery.  What happens to them is their choice.  

Benerro is already ready to step up.  He has already proclaimed support for Daenerys Targaryen. 

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On 8/11/2020 at 7:23 PM, Damsel in Distress said:

Assistance will come from sources like Braavos and the church of R'hllor to help the ex-slaves.  

Braavos is not going to lift a finger to help a Valyrian dragonlord who wants to be a...Valyrian dragonlord. They're probably looking at the slaves in Volantis who are worshipping a dragonlord as a cult figure and shaking their heads in disgust. Volantis needs to free itself from its worship of dragons otherwise they'll stay another Valyrian colony. True freedom would be throwing off the shackles of all colonizers, past and present.

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On 8/3/2020 at 4:48 PM, BlackLightning said:

There is time enough for Daenerys Targaryen and her allies to abolish slavery (even if it means attacking and destroying to defiant cities and individuals) and then introduce a new socioeconomic/sociopolitical system to Essos before leaving for Westeros.

But "dragons" aka Dany dont rebuild and thats what rebuilding would involve. 

Large parts of Volantis are abandoned and depopulated. It would need someone who can do that tree planting thing. Which Dany has decided is for LOSERS and WEAKLINGS.

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On 7/28/2020 at 5:40 PM, SeanF said:

Slavery was still economically viable in Haiti in 1791, the US South in 1860, and even in Saudi Arabia as late as 1955.

Haiti, saudi arabia or even american south is pretty few.  At the times you mention the economies in the places were already obsolete, like economy of dying Poland in late XVIII century, which was based on serfdom (like in goddamn westeros 300 years AC). Ancient mass "production slavery" (worse kind of slavery) ended not because sb fought against it with fire and blood and especially not because of slave uprisings. social and economical conditions changed and slowly it disappeared or rather evolved in other forms of dependance. How about British empire? Did it finish with slavery because sb forced GB with fire and blood, because of goodness and humanitarism of british politicians or maybe rather because it was no longer profitable and it was better option to forbid it (and - on the occasion - bash other, competing powers which still traded and used slaves)? I know a bit on ideological background, abolitionism etc, but I think the latter factor was decisive.

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21 minutes ago, broken one said:

Haiti, saudi arabia or even american south is pretty few.  At the times you mention the economies in the places were already obsolete, like economy of dying Poland in late XVIII century, which was based on serfdom (like in goddamn westeros 300 years AC). Ancient mass "production slavery" (worse kind of slavery) ended not because sb fought against it with fire and blood and especially not because of slave uprisings. social and economical conditions changed and slowly it disappeared or rather evolved in other forms of dependance. How about British empire? Did it finish with slavery because sb forced GB with fire and blood, because of goodness and humanitarism of british politicians or maybe rather because it was no longer profitable and it was better option to forbid it (and - on the occasion - bash other, competing powers which still traded and used slaves)? I know a bit on ideological background, abolitionism etc, but I think the latter factor was decisive.

Haiti in 1791 was one of the richest places on earth.  The sugar industry the probably the most profitable in the world.  Slavery ended in Haiti because the slaves rebelled. The British indeed used quite a bit of Fire and Blood to end slavery, eg the activities of the West Africa squadron, and the destruction of the Algerine fleet.

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On 8/11/2020 at 10:23 PM, Damsel in Distress said:

There won't be any slaver/master expeditions of any significance after the slaves revolt.  Not if the slaves kill all of their masters.  Which is their right to do.  It would not even have to be all of the masters.  Just all of the males among the masters who are old and fit enough to fight.  But it does not have to happen this way.  The masters could do what is right and release their slaves and make a commitment to never make any attempts to bring back slavery.  Those who choose to continue their slaving will be killed by their own slaves.  As far as freedmen killing each other to determine who gets to lead, well, that is the way it is in Westeros and other places too.  Aren't the Stark, Baratheon, and Lannister knuckleheads killing each other (worse killing smallfolk) in order to decide which of them would lead.  It will be difficult for a while but they will eventually figure it out on their own.  And that is a lot better than slavery.  At least the freedmen gets a chance to figure it out on their own, to find a system which works best for them.  Something they never got to do when they were slaves.  The ex-slave population will make up the majority of the people.  Assistance will come from sources like Braavos and the church of R'hllor to help the ex-slaves.  

The role of the liberator is to set the slaves free.  The rest is really up to the free people to solve.  That is what freedom is.  They're free and then the responsibility and the choices are theirs to make.  

1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

But "dragons" aka Dany dont rebuild and thats what rebuilding would involve. 

Large parts of Volantis are abandoned and depopulated. It would need someone who can do that tree planting thing. Which Dany has decided is for LOSERS and WEAKLINGS.

Dragons do more than conquer.  You mistake them for the ironborn.  Dragons built the sept of Baelor and the capital city of King's Landing.  They built Westeros.  The problem in Slaver's Bay are the evil Ghiscari trash and their allies who desire the old slaving system back.  Daenerys is the greatest Targaryen of them all.  She is not going to leave Meereen unresolved.    

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2 hours ago, SeanF said:

Haiti in 1791 was one of the richest places on earth.  The sugar industry the probably the most profitable in the world. 

haiti was small and special case anyway. sugar cane growing/processing was the most profitable business in the world (I doubt if haiti plantation owners got most of the cream btw), but it was going to end soon, as the sugar beet was coming, just like british policy towards slavery and napoleonic wars. so they were quite lucky as they got away with their rebelion. As I mentioned above - I am aware that it was in British interest to bash slave - using competition, as their economy was ahead and could do without the disgusting dealings. I guess the others would have followed, even without stimulant in form of west africa squadron.

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On 8/12/2020 at 11:49 AM, Myrish Lace said:

As destructive as Westerosi struggles are, they do not lead to complete collapse like in Astapor.  So obviously it's not "the way it is" in Westeros, or any other place for that matter.

 

Yes it has.

Have you not read the Jaime and Brienne chapters from Feast and Dance or the Arya chapters from Storm?

7 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Braavos is not going to lift a finger to help a Valyrian dragonlord who wants to be a...Valyrian dragonlord. They're probably looking at the slaves in Volantis who are worshipping a dragonlord as a cult figure and shaking their heads in disgust. Volantis needs to free itself from its worship of dragons otherwise they'll stay another Valyrian colony. True freedom would be throwing off the shackles of all colonizers, past and present.

Daenerys isn't colonizing anything.

Although you do make a very good point about Braavos. Braavos is in a very difficult situation. Braavos is about as anti-slavery as it comes and Braavos is also pro-Targaryen....however, Braavos has legitimate issues with dragons and dragonlords. However, Daenerys is -- indisputably -- doing good work. In fact, her actions are no different than the Sealord's rescue of the wildlings and her policies are no different from Braavosi policy. Yet....she seems to be slowly ushering in a new Valyrian age for Essos. She wouldn't be able to end slavery in Essos (and then, save the world from the Others) if it hadn't been for dragons.

It's like Braavos is getting exactly what they want only to realize it's not at all what they wanted.

However, the Sealord of Braavos is a huge determining factor here. Given the Sealord's age, this is likely the same Sealord who met Dany as a baby and sponsored/coordinated a pact to restore her and her brother to their birthright.

Even if the Sealord of Braavos commandeers the Braavosi people into allying with Daenerys, the present Sealord (who is very old) can die of old age which would leave the next Sealord free to undo all that he had done.

On 8/12/2020 at 7:23 AM, Aldarion said:

As I have already stated: Daenerys tried to do too much, too soon. She should have replaced slavery with colonate or with feudalism; as it is, there is almost no chance that her attempt to free slaves will result in anything but societal collapse. And I think that might be the point Martin is trying to make: yes, slavery is evil; but just because you know something has to be ended, does not mean that you know how to continue.

I think Daenerys and her people already realize that. After all, it is precisely the reason why she stayed in Meereen so long to begin with.

For most of her final chapter in Dance, Daenerys is actually trying to get back to Meereen.

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5 hours ago, Pontius Pilate said:

Dragons do more than conquer.  You mistake them for the ironborn.  Dragons built the sept of Baelor and the capital city of King's Landing.  They built Westeros

I think you're inflating their rebuilding skills. At best a handful tried to rebuild and their successors muck it up by destroying it later. They never rebuilt Harrenhal or Tumbleton or Summerhall or Dornish castles. Jaehaerys couldnt rebuild King's Landing because they were broke. The only reason they had to build a second Sept is because 1) Baelor was a crazy nut and 2) Maegor destroyed their first one. Its also dwarfed in size by the temples in Essos. Its probably going to be destroyed by Dany or Cersei because history repeats. An empire built on Valyrian power...will repeat. 

Final point. Someone should inform the Greatest Targaryen Ever that her predecessors did try to build things. She thinks dragons arent supposed to put down roots and help things grow. 

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19 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Braavos is also pro-Targaryen....

I think they're only "pro-Targaryen" because they want to kick every Targaryen out of Essos. They are happy when Targaryens are far away, focused more on Westeros. Because they know what every dragonlord is like in the end. Dany is more of the same. "Bold and reckless"

21 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Yet....she seems to be slowly ushering in a new Valyrian age for Essos. She wouldn't be able to end slavery in Essos (and then, save the world from the Others) if it hadn't been for dragons.

She hasnt ended it yet, hence the topic of this thread.

23 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Even if the Sealord of Braavos commandeers the Braavosi people into allying with Daenerys, the present Sealord (who is very old) can die of old age which would leave the next Sealord free to undo all that he had done.

I dont think they will be allies. They dont trust dragonlords. Even if they give her the benefit of the doubt, they wouldnt trust Dany to improve things or settle down in Essos to do good works...and they'd be right. Dany shamed herself for staying there. Its telling that she forgets Hazzea's name but she has has to "remember her house words."

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1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

Daenerys isn't colonizing anything.

Dany's house words are the basis for Valyrian power. She is proud to be the Golden Blood of Valyria, which is about extracting resources from far off lands to build an empire. The resources she's extracting this time are slaves that she wanted to take to Westeros. She was planning to march to Westeros with those folks, her "new army" until she realized they'd starve. She may put a "liberation" spin on it, but deep down, Meereen is about feeding her army.

And Volantis is set up to fail because they're being whipped up into religious cult idolization. Most former colonies dont gain freedom and prosperity by worshipping the new colonizer with a kinder, gentler face. Former colonized nations dont beg the Queen "please come and rule us again you are our savior"

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