How could the Kingdom of the North, Vale & Riverland be possible or sustainable?

[Hodor the Articulate]

On 7/30/2020 at 1:14 PM, Universal Sword Donor said:

Religion really hasn't driven much of an issue in Westeros tbh. There are houses in the north and RL that honor each other's gods, and those same houses plus others proudly bear the First Men / Andal traditions in their homes with no issue.

While there haven't really been conflicts between the Old Gods and the Faith in thousands of years, the difference in religion does point to cultural differences, which makes it easier to justify seeking independence. Also, who knows what the growing power of the Faith especially in the Riverlands, could turn into.

5 hours ago, nyser1 said:

Or it could precisely ignite the fire.

How so? The formation of Westeros ended the constant squabbling among the petty kingdoms and offered protection from Ironborn raids, as well as potential attacks from foreign powers. If one region is under attack, the King can summon all the other regions to help defend it.

[Rose of Red Lake]

1 hour ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

How so? The formation of Westeros ended the constant squabbling among the petty kingdoms and offered protection from Ironborn raids, as well as potential attacks from foreign powers. If one region is under attack, the King can summon all the other regions to help defend it.

That's basically the story of the unification of the North, but no one came to the North's aid during the 300 years of Targaryen reign except maybe Alysanne. The Starks dealt with Ironborn raids on their shores. They also dealt with wildling raids. They also dealt with slavers on their shores and the Andals. They dealt with the Others the first time. The Baratheons-Starks dealt with the Greyjoy Rebellion. The Starks even had to come in at the end of the Dance to help stabilize things for the Targaryens. The Watch declined under the Targaryen's reign. Marriage ties with the North, Riverlands, Vale were also beneficial and were instrumental in dealing with the Mad King - so again Starks had to do the heavy lifting for the whole realm. The Targaryens didn't want to make marriage alliances because they thought other people were "beasts of the field" and had to be dragged kicking and screaming toward the basic idea that "we're all human." And even then, these hard-won alliances with the Dornish were treated carelessly by Aerys, Rhaegar, and Dany. 

[Hodor the Articulate]

8 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

That's basically the story of the unification of the North, but no one came to the North's aid during the 300 years of Targaryen reign except maybe Alysanne. The Starks dealt with Ironborn raids on their shores. They also dealt with wildling raids. They also dealt with slavers on their shores and the Andals. They dealt with the Others the first time. The Baratheons-Starks dealt with the Greyjoy Rebellion. The Starks even had to come in at the end of the Dance to help stabilize things for the Targaryens. The Watch declined under the Targaryen's reign. Marriage ties with the North, Riverlands, Vale were also beneficial and were instrumental in dealing with the Mad King - so again Starks had to do the heavy lifting for the whole realm. The Targaryens didn't want to make marriage alliances because they thought other people were "beasts of the field" and had to be dragged kicking and screaming toward the basic idea that "we're all human." And even then, these hard-won alliances with the Dornish were treated carelessly by Aerys, Rhaegar, and Dany. 

I'm so glad you agree that unification is great!

Indeed, only the regions directly impacted by the Greyjoy Rebellion (Westerlands and Riverlands) would have given a shit about it. But thanks to unification, the King was able to assemble a host from the North, the Westerlands, the Stormlands, and the Reach to overwhelm the Ironborn before they could do anymore damage.

And it was smart of the Starks to finally branch out and arrange marriages with other regions, instead of sticking with only Northern families. They should have copied the Targs, who've mixed with families of every region except the North and the Iron Islands, ages ago.

Although, I suppose you're right about the Night's Watch. It's very sad that Targ rule was so peaceful that so few quality men were being sent to the watch. Fuckin' selfish smallfolk and their not wanting wars! Fuckin' Targs and their not being dictators and forcing noblemen to join the NW!

[Universal Sword Donor]

18 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

While there haven't really been conflicts between the Old Gods and the Faith in thousands of years, the difference in religion does point to cultural differences, which makes it easier to justify seeking independence. Also, who knows what the growing power of the Faith especially in the Riverlands, could turn into.

Maybe with this HS, but we see a joint kingdom with intermingled cultured ruled over by a Andal-First man king who follows one or both set of gods (Catelyn thinks he's so much like Ned and prays to the old gods but his wedding was most likely done by a septon) and whose parents each held different religious beliefs. They can use it to justify if they want, and at first glance Greatjon's speech would seem to support that. However it's immediately contradicted by the fact that multiple Andal RL houses support Robb too.

It just isn't a big deal except to the exceedingly pious.

[Hodor the Articulate]

One thing I don't think has been brought up yet is, where will the new King be seated?

5 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Maybe with this HS, but we see a joint kingdom with intermingled cultured ruled over by a Andal-First man king who follows one or both set of gods (Catelyn thinks he's so much like Ned and prays to the old gods but his wedding was most likely done by a septon) and whose parents each held different religious beliefs. They can use it to justify if they want, and at first glance Greatjon's speech would seem to support that. However it's immediately contradicted by the fact that multiple Andal RL houses support Robb too.

It just isn't a big deal except to the exceedingly pious.

That's what I'm saying. Religion isn't a deal breaker by itself, but it can be used to stoke existing tensions. Like if the Vale decides they'd be better off ruling themselves (or everyone), they can point to the Northerners being savages, with their scary gods.

That said, I wouldn't dismiss religious wars outright. More and more people are becoming exceedingly pious. An ambitious HS might use this opportunity to expand their following.

[Rose of Red Lake]

Why not an EU model for Westeros though? The original EU was set up to end bloody wars between neighbors and even won a Nobel Peace price recently. I think even GRRM said he liked it.

Angela Merkel isn't the supreme leader of Europe. Regions dont give up their sovereignty. The North and Iron Islands could still be independently ruled if they wanted but Westeros would enter a pact to share currency and standing armies. The kingdoms could still act together for security and cultures could be shared instead of isolated.

That's what I mean by unification for such a large land mass.

 

[Loose Bolt]

8 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Why not an EU model for Westeros though? The original EU was set up to end bloody wars between neighbors and even won a Nobel Peace price recently. I think even GRRM said he liked it.

Angela Merkel isn't the supreme leader of Europe. Regions dont give up their sovereignty. The North and Iron Islands could still be independently ruled if they wanted but Westeros would enter a pact to share currency and standing armies. The kingdoms could still act together for security and cultures could be shared instead of isolated.

That's what I mean by unification for such a large land mass.

 

EU does not have either any kind of armed forces or even police forces and so rulers of that hippie collective cannot do what president Lincoln did when some states tried to leave the Union. Or if those in power had any kind of means to make British reconsider their idea about leaving EU they would almost certainly would have released their hounds of war.

What I tried to say above is that EU model would have been too weak to work in Westeros. In fact I am not sure how long EU itself will survive in real world.

[Rose of Red Lake]

2 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

EU does not have either any kind of armed forces or even police forces and so rulers of that hippie collective cannot do what president Lincoln did when some states tried to leave the Union. Or if those in power had any kind of means to make British reconsider their idea about leaving EU they would almost certainly would have released their hounds of war.

What I tried to say above is that EU model would have been too weak to work in Westeros. In fact I am not sure how long EU itself will survive in real world

Okay...what potential Stark claimant in the current story is just as bad as a slaver. Dany, did you write this post? 

I know they dont have a standing army, its just a model for what it could look like. It doesn't have to be a carbon copy.

The U.S. itself effectively suceeded from the British Empire - was that "bad" because it wasn't unity? Maybe it has something to do with tyranny of an empire that overgrew its reach. Hmmmm... sounds familiar.

The "hippie collective" comment is funny because the author is a Grateful Dead listening *hippie* who supports the EU.

The Targaryens didnt protect Westeros from itself. They were not good stewards of the land. The Starks already knew how to defend borders, they didnt have civil wars that wrecked everything, and they werent "petty kings." They didnt need someone to show them how to do something they already knew how to do. Once the Targaryens assumed power, lords weren't the major menace anymore, it was Targaryens themselves who were the threat. So the North keeping their sovereignty as a check on power in the south would be important. The EU model creates all the benefits of unity and avoids tyranny.

[Universal Sword Donor]

12 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

One thing I don't think has been brought up yet is, where will the new King be seated?

Realistically the only place that makes sense is somewhere that can bridge the gaps between the new kingdoms, obviously the Crossings!

Realistically maybe someplace athwart the kingsroad or something. That said Angevins didn't do horribly with a roaming capital / multiple capitals (Winchester / London, Rouen, Chinon (treasury). Winterfell and the Eyrie are as good as any. A new castle wouldn't be remiss either.

12 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

That's what I'm saying. Religion isn't a deal breaker by itself, but it can be used to stoke existing tensions. Like if the Vale decides they'd be better off ruling themselves (or everyone), they can point to the Northerners being savages, with their scary gods.

That said, I wouldn't dismiss religious wars outright. More and more people are becoming exceedingly pious. An ambitious HS might use this opportunity to expand their following.

People are becoming desperate for protection and food. Per Ser Jorah, "the common people pray for rain, healthy children, and a summer that never ends. It is no matter to them if the high lords play their game of thrones, so long as they are left in peace. They never are."

The only people we see becoming more pious are the sparrows who show up because the crown didn't protect them, and the leadership void (both the HS election and Cersei's complete idiocy) allowed for someone to fill that role. The HS is already using whatever method he can to expand his follow and it's working because Cersei handled the entire situation so poorly. Mace won't be putting down the Faith, so I assume it will fall to Cersei or Dany to do it. 

But realistically in the 300 years since the Targs came there hasn't been one religious war. The closest thing to that reality is either Baelor planning (and being killed) for it or the expulsion of the septons from the Iron Isles because of the Greyjoy intervention for Aenys.

P.s. The BWB count as more pious too, for similar proximate causes and one super awesome reason (resurrection).

[The Merling King]

14 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

One thing I don't think has been brought up yet is, where will the new King be seated?

Rebuild Oldstone for the kingdom of North, Vale & Riverlands? If we are just talking about the kingdom of North and Vale I think the Wolfsdem/Whiteharbor is the best spot but obviously the Manderleys are already there.

 

[The Merling King]

2 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Realistically maybe someplace athwart the kingsroad or something. That said Angevins didn't do horribly with a roaming capital / multiple capitals (Winchester / London, Rouen, Chinon (treasury). Winterfell and the Eyrie are as good as any. A new castle wouldn't be remiss either.

If we are taking about Sansa and Harry/Robert Arryn then they could potentially control Winterfell, The Eyrie and Riverrun. The could rebuild/regarrison Oldstone and Harrenhall but assuming the southern Kingdoms are still united and ruled from the iron throne Harenhall is probably too close to KL for a royal seat if the north and better used as a border fortress.

The Norman/Angevins/Plantagenets kings of England and Capetian kings of France had a traveling court to control there large domains. In feudalism the local lords would bend the knee when the king was visiting or near but otherwise ruled there estates as independent sovereigns and that is why it was important for the king to make his rounds.

It’s funny that the early Targaryens put an emphasis on the royal progress when they had dragons but post dragons they don’t seem to travel out of Kingslanding that much with the exception of maybe Daeron II and his court. Maybe that’s why the lord let them stay in power so long.

[R2D]

Bump.

[S. D]

Have you ever seen the map of Westeros? GRRM just doesn't understand geography. Rivers are where they're not supposed to be, the climates of different regions isn't concurrent to the land and nearby landmasses etc

[Universal Sword Donor]

On 8/1/2020 at 1:39 PM, The Merling King said:

Rebuild Oldstone for the kingdom of North, Vale & Riverlands? If we are just talking about the kingdom of North and Vale I think the Wolfsdem/Whiteharbor is the best spot but obviously the Manderleys are already there.

 

Any place they put the new capital should be near a body of water, preferably something with a deep water harbor. Saltpans would be the best unaffiliated option. There's little there that can't be built around or over, its harbor is deep enough for a Braavosi galleass, RL trade on the trident can come down through there, and it's protected by two sides on water. Something like Maidenpool already has a ruler like you mentioned, doesn't sit on a river, and it's easier to assault by land.

[Lee-Sensei]

On 7/31/2020 at 3:03 PM, Universal Sword Donor said:

Maybe with this HS, but we see a joint kingdom with intermingled cultured ruled over by a Andal-First man king who follows one or both set of gods (Catelyn thinks he's so much like Ned and prays to the old gods but his wedding was most likely done by a septon) and whose parents each held different religious beliefs. They can use it to justify if they want, and at first glance Greatjon's speech would seem to support that. However it's immediately contradicted by the fact that multiple Andal RL houses support Robb too.

It just isn't a big deal except to the exceedingly pious.

Weren’t the Riverlords just accepting the idea of being ruled by a First Man Kingdom that worshipped the Old Gods? The Riverlords haven’t ruled themselves as Kings for the better part of the Milennia. For centuries they were being ruled by outsiders, whether it wa the Stormlands, the Iron Islands, the Valyrians or the Stormlands again.

[Universal Sword Donor]

8 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Weren’t the Riverlords just accepting the idea of being ruled by a First Man Kingdom that worshipped the Old Gods? The Riverlords haven’t ruled themselves as Kings for the better part of the Milennia. For centuries they were being ruled by outsiders, whether it wa the Stormlands, the Iron Islands, the Valyrians or the Stormlands again.

I don't think religion had anything to do with it. They accepted being ruled by the grandson of their current liege lord, who happened to be split the cultural / religious divide. The fact he saved them and their liege is another point to buttress religion not playing a part.

[Lee-Sensei]

43 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

I don't think religion had anything to do with it. They accepted being ruled by the grandson of their current liege lord, who happened to be split the cultural / religious divide. The fact he saved them and their liege is another point to buttress religion not playing a part.

You’re right. That’s probably part of it. I think that it was a mix of Robb having Tully ancestry, the Riverlords not having a recent history of ruling themselves and the fact that he’d saved them. So that makes sense. The Vale does have a long history of ruling themselves and a stronger identity, Robb didn’t have any Arryn ancestors (at least not recently) and he didn’t save them.

I think that the Kingdom of the North and the Trident makes sense, although defending it would be difficult.