Tolkien 4.0 (A dark and hungry sea lion arises)

[The Marquis de Leech]

Aragorn, explicitly, does not enter Minas Tirith until he has been approved by the people.

The reason is quite simple, of course. Gondorian precedent is against him - and a surviving Denethor would have used the Arvedui precedent for all it's worth (legally, the Stewards rule in Earnur's name). So we see the Steward, Faramir, refer the matter to the people... and they give the thumbs up to the war-victor.

Meanwhile, Gandalf crowning Aragorn is Aragorn's own choice. It's clear that he is expected to put the crown on himself.

The thing about no new Kings? Gondor's long period under the Stewards is basically because they had just had a truly hideous civil war, and no-one wanted to re-awaken old issues - by this point, most of the Gondorian nobility would be related to the ruling dynasty anyway.

(Also consider Bard in the Hobbit. Descendant of Girion, Lord of Dale, but upgrades his title to King).

Really, by your reasoning, Aragorn (or any of his forefathers) could have turned up, and ousted the Stewards, when that clearly was not politically viable,

 

[Lord Varys]

8 hours ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

Aragorn, explicitly, does not enter Minas Tirith until he has been approved by the people.

The reason is quite simple, of course. Gondorian precedent is against him - and a surviving Denethor would have used the Arvedui precedent for all it's worth (legally, the Stewards rule in Earnur's name). So we see the Steward, Faramir, refer the matter to the people... and they give the thumbs up to the war-victor.

Meanwhile, Gandalf crowning Aragorn is Aragorn's own choice. It's clear that he is expected to put the crown on himself.

The thing about no new Kings? Gondor's long period under the Stewards is basically because they had just had a truly hideous civil war, and no-one wanted to re-awaken old issues - by this point, most of the Gondorian nobility would be related to the ruling dynasty anyway.

(Also consider Bard in the Hobbit. Descendant of Girion, Lord of Dale, but upgrades his title to King).

Really, by your reasoning, Aragorn (or any of his forefathers) could have turned up, and ousted the Stewards, when that clearly was not politically viable,

Oh, but that all takes place during the war. I never said Aragorn did expect or foresee that the eagle of Manwe would proclaim him king. But he did.

Mundane politicking may have prevailed if no miracles and divine interventions had happened - but they did, no? The eagle of Manwe settled that question for him. The eagle makes a proclamation. He tells the people that their king has returned and that he will rule them. He doesn't tell them that they have to make a choice ... or that's their right to make a choice. And the people later just do what the divine forces want them to do. They go through the motions.

Also, we later get the entire white tree miracle. Aragorn is a divine king whose kingship comes directly from the divine sphere, not the will of the people. They are just pious enough to understand what's going on ... as one sees with both Faramir and Ioreth. The role of the people is to recognize the true king when he is among them. But they do not make him king.

And that's basically what constantly happens with Aragorn. People seeing him are never really impressed by what he did - although he did great deeds - but by what he is. By his overbearing presence and his family tree. That's what basically cows Éomer into submission when they meet. And this presence is something that comes from Aragorn's blood and ancestry. By birth and pedigree this man is set apart from all other living men.

There is no indication that the stewards or any of the other noble houses of Gondor are related to the royal family. We don't get the plague and civil strife for nothing. The idea seems to be that due to war and plague and tragedy cadet branches are all destroyed until the descendants of Anárion are down to Earnil's branch. Technically one should assume there having been daughters who intermarried with other nobility ... but there are very few women ever mentioned, so perhaps they never existed. Even if they did, their lines may have died out, too, by the time Earnur disappeared. Earlier the women from such cadet branches may have been absorbed back into the main line, like they did it on Númenor, too.

If the stewards had had royal blood they would have succeeded Earnur. Perhaps not immediately but eventually. After all, there is no indication that anyone would be able to stop Denethor if he were to call himself king. Not to mention that childless King Earnur should have named an heir if there had been any royal descendants left he could have picked. That Gondor had almost run out of royals was already clear two generations earlier when Earnil only got the crown after lengthy deliberations. After Earnur's disappearance the House of Anárion was officially dead.

And backwater chieftains calling themselves king doesn't really have any bearing on Dúnedain high culture. Aragorn and Éomer may both call themselves king, but they are not even remotely equals. The royal line of Elros Tar-Minyatur is not royal because some people made it royal, it is royal due to divine favor and divine (i.e. Elven and Maiar) ancestry. Eärendil is pretty much a half-god himself, slaying dragons in the sky and basically becoming a heavenly star.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Why didn’t the Kings of Gondor and Arnor take the Numenorian title “Tar” before their name?  They are the rightful decendants of Elros and the Kings of Neumenor why not use the same form of title?

[Lord Varys]

7 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Why didn’t the Kings of Gondor and Arnor take the Numenorian title “Tar” before their name?  They are the rightful decendants of Elros and the Kings of Neumenor why not use the same form of title?

I'd assume because Númenor is gone and they are not, in fact, Kings of Númenor merely Númenórean kings in another country.

Also, if you look at the few Lords of Andúnie we know it seems clear that Elendil and his descendants simply continued the naming habits of their ancestors. The first Lord of Andúnie was a Valandil, we have an Eärendur there, too. They would not see themselves as the heirs of the Kings of Númenor - whose bloodline ended - but rather as the heirs of the Lords of Andúnie.

I guess chances are pretty good that the main branch of the House of Elros and the Lords of Andúnie intermarried occasionally, creating stronger blood ties than there were originally. But we don't have much knowledge about that. Inzilbêth, the mother of Tar-Palantir, was not just the niece of a Lord of Andúnie but also a descendant of Tar-Calmacil, so one assumes that daughters of kings did marry into the family occasionally.

[One-Winged Balrog]

On 6/8/2021 at 8:29 AM, Lord Varys said:

How little the will of the people matters in this world can be drawn from the simple fact that Gondor couldn't make a new king in a thousand years. Why is that? Because the people cannot make kings. Kings can only be the scions of a very special family with divine blood ... and when those are gone then there cannot be any kings, ever. You can still have rulers but no kings, and nobody can sit on the throne of the kings, etc.

Humans in LOTR just haven't advanced enough to accept democracy. As opposed to hobbits, who need no divine blood to elect Sam Mayor of the Shire for seven consecutive terms.

Edited July 27, 2021 by One-Winged Balrog

[Lord Varys]

On 7/22/2021 at 10:28 PM, One-Winged Balrog said:

Humans in LOTR just haven't advanced enough to accept democracy. As opposed to hobbits, who need no divide blood to elect Sam Mayor of the Shire for seven consecutive terms.

I think it is somewhat more complex. The old men from the FA don't really have kings, and their chieftains do not rule with the same kind of gravitas as the House of Elros and the Dúnedain kings do later ... nor is the House of Eorl, albeit kingly in name, even remotely in the same league insofar as nobility and royalty are concerned. In fact, some of the old houses of men are are egalitarian than they are later.

But, of course, monarchy is the natural order of things in Arda, that's why Arda itself has an Elder King in Manwe ... and it is Manwe the Eldar emulate when their great chieftains also become kings during/after the Great Journey.

Mankind is ennobled by the transfer of power, prestige, royalty (and in a sense even divinity, if you consider the fact that the House of Elros is descended from Thingol and Melian and the Kings of Númenor inherited the regalia of Doriath) that comes with the entire Half-elven thing - which is clearly a crucial part of Eru's plan considering Manwe was given authority to rule on those specific Half-elven.

The ideal order of things for mankind is the kind of monarchy established by Aragorn and Éomer at the end of the War of the Ring. And that political system is sanctified and approved of by an angel of the lord and the messengers of the Elder King.

Modern democracy would be a decline, sort of like the Lake-town system is inferior to the kingship of Dale which is restored by Bard.

[The Marquis de Leech]

The kingship of Dale isn't restored. It's an explicit upgrade from nobility. And the Lake Town system (basically a sort of Tolkienian take on the Venetian Republic) isn't inferior - we see a popular New Master replace the nasty old one.

(Meanwhile, the Elves of Lothlorien and Rivendell, not to mention the Ents, manage just fine without a monarchy. And the High Kingship of the Noldor, when it did exist, was entirely titular).  

[Lord Varys]

10 hours ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

The kingship of Dale isn't restored. It's an explicit upgrade from nobility. And the Lake Town system (basically a sort of Tolkienian take on the Venetian Republic) isn't inferior - we see a popular New Master replace the nasty old one.

The impression I have is that Dale under the new royal dynasty founded by Bard runs the human show in the north after the Hobbit. It might be that folks still have a Mayor in a rebuild Lake-town, but that wouldn't matter all that much. Not to mention that the culture of Lake-town as such is a decline, something that only developed after Smaug destroyed Dale.

10 hours ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

(Meanwhile, the Elves of Lothlorien and Rivendell, not to mention the Ents, manage just fine without a monarchy. And the High Kingship of the Noldor, when it did exist, was entirely titular).  

Well, the Ents aren't *really* a people as such. You can just as well ask why the Eagles don't seem to have a king (although they do have a lord).

The Elves of Lórien had kings in the past. That they no longer have kings is a sign of cultural and social decline. The Elves are a dying race, after all.

The High Kingship of the Noldor is, of course, just a titular kingship, considering the Noldor were no longer a united people when they came to Middle-earth and the various princes ruled their own principalities. That, too, is a sign of social decline and expression of discord and strife as a result of the Kin-strife. The ideal society was the society before the fall which had Finwe ruling all the Noldor in peace and tranquility ... and all the Eldar in Aman bowing down to the authority of the king of all the Eldar, Ingwe.

The true king of Beleriand was Thingol, and he was recognized as such by the Noldor. The High King thing was just their way of trying to create some kind of figurehead who could lead and organize the campaigns against Morgoth ... and that didn't really work all that well, anyway.

And I'd say that it is a very curious thing that Elrond isn't a king. He should have been the High King of the Noldor even prior to Gil-galad's death and he should have been king in his own domains. Elrond is of much nobler blood than Gil-galad - especially if we go with Gil-galad as a son of Orodreth from the line of Finarfin.

If Elros Tar-Minyatur was and could be a king, so should be Elrond. It makes no sense that he wasn't. The reason why he wasn't, I guess, is because, ultimately, the Elrond we know is a character from the Hobbit, and in the Hobbit Elrond of Rivendell just isn't a king.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Elrond not being High King is pretty simple. It's descent through the male line only. Elrond in the male line is descended from the House of Hador, not the Noldor.

The Elves of Lothorien going from Amdir and Amloth (monarchs) to Galadriel seems like an upgrade to me, what with the latter being Caliquendi, and the former being mere Moriquendi.

Thingol is King of Doriath, not some overarching King of Beleriand. He's tolerated by the Noldor (what with the whole Girdle thing), not respected by them, technical Caliquendi status notwithstanding. 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

25 minutes ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

Elrond not being High King is pretty simple. It's descent through the male line only. Elrond in the male line is descended from the House of Hador, not the Noldor.

The Elves of Lothorien going from Amdir and Amloth (monarchs) to Galadriel seems like an upgrade to me, what with the latter being Caliquendi, and the former being mere Moriquendi.

Thingol is King of Doriath, not some overarching King of Beleriand. He's tolerated by the Noldor (what with the whole Girdle thing), not respected by them, technical Caliquendi status notwithstanding. 

I thought Thingol claimed kingship of all Beleriand not just Doriath?

[Lord Varys]

20 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I thought Thingol claimed kingship of all Beleriand not just Doriath?

Thingol is indeed the King of Beleriand. Beleriand proper is just the lands in the south, the Noldor princes have to make due with the lands Thingol and the Sindar do not consider their own, i.e. the mountains and vales and dark forests of the north closer to Angband. That is all made crystal clear in the Silmarillion.

That Thingol ruled supreme among the elves in the north-west of Middle-earth can also be drawn from the fact that he successfully banned Quenya and forced the exiled Noldor to adopt Sindarin.

21 hours ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

Elrond not being High King is pretty simple. It's descent through the male line only. Elrond in the male line is descended from the House of Hador, not the Noldor.

That is not made explicit in the text and actually goes against things like Dior, who is descended from Thingol through the female line, becoming king after Thingol's death.

In the same manner, Idril's son Eärendil is effectively Turgon's heir after his birth, just as Maeglin - Turgon's sister-son - was a presumptive heir while Turgon had no grandson.

Basically both Idril and Lúthien as the only children of their respective royal fathers were the ways to attain the kingship of those places. Whoever married Lúthien or Idril would succeed to the kingship of Doriath and Gondolin, respectively, if they were still alive when the kings of those realms died. If they were already dead, then the crown would pass to their children or grandchildren.

You don't even have to be an Elf to rule over an elven kingdom, as Dior shows. All you need is the royal blood.

And I'm not sure it makes sense to view the High Kingship of the Noldor as a hereditary title, anyway. Succession by primogeniture was already broken when Maedhros asked Fingolfin to be the High King after his father's death, so there is no reason to pretend we know how that title was passed on after the subsequent kings died.

It makes little sense that Elros can be a king but Elrond can't. Elrond should have been the King of Imladris in any case, and even if we go with the idea that Gil-galad became king before Elrond because of some weird male primogeniture thing (I daresay this makes no sense at all considering that in light of Eärendil and Elwing's special ancestry and destiny they and their children should have been the chosen monarchs of the survivors, not Gil-galad) then it is very odd that he didn't succeed him after his death.

21 hours ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

The Elves of Lothorien going from Amdir and Amloth (monarchs) to Galadriel seems like an upgrade to me, what with the latter being Caliquendi, and the former being mere Moriquendi.

Galadriel doesn't rule Lórien. Celeborn rules the place, and how that came to be is a rather convoluted topic. Suffice it to say the obvious explanation why they are not king and queen of Lórien is that they were not of the blood of the family who originally ruled Lórien (i.e. Amdír/Malgalad and Amroth, if we go by that version). Galadriel is a very powerful figure, but if she wasn't married to a Sinda (or Teler or Nando) she would not be the Lady of Lórien.

And the idea that the Sindar/Nandor/Avari view the Noldor as their betters/more noble is, quite frankly, false. They do not want or need Noldor in charge of their domains, nor were they keen to fight with or under them against the enemy (e.g. Amdír and his forces refusing the fight under Gil-galad during the Last Alliance).

In general, though, the entire concept of royal succession is kind of weird in an immortal race. The Elves do not live expecting their parents will die and they as their children have to follow in their footsteps. Their concept of kingship was shaped by the Valar and clearly emulates how the Elder King rules over the Valar. And that is basically an eternal kingship. Finwe and Elwe expected to rule forever the way Ingwe still rules.

In that sense, it doesn't really strike me as very likely to assume that the Eldar ever established proper laws regulating the succession of their kings, even when those kings started to die more often than they originally expected.

[The Marquis de Leech]

The High Kingship is most certainly male line only.

(Feanor) > Fingolfin > Fingon > Turgon > Gil-galad

It's not a legitimist succession, since Maedhros gives up the claim of his line, but it's clearly the oldest male in the male line. Idril may have been Heir to Gondolin, but not the High Kingship.

[Lord Varys]

13 hours ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

The High Kingship is most certainly male line only.

(Feanor) > Fingolfin > Fingon > Turgon > Gil-galad

It's not a legitimist succession, since Maedhros gives up the claim of his line, but it's clearly the oldest male in the male line. Idril may have been Heir to Gondolin, but not the High Kingship.

We really don't know. I mean, Maedhros may have been the head of 'House Feanor' after his father's death, but if Maedhros had predeceased Fingolfin Maglor may have decided that he should be the High King after his uncle's death.

Bottom line is, not only is the High Kingship an empty honor, it is clearly a titual kingship that's decided not by law and tradition but by political expedience.

Going back through things it kind makes sense that neither Elrond nor Elros became kings at the end of the FA, considering they were raised by Maglor ... who wouldn't have any interest in that kind of thing. Gil-galad and Círdan were the last free Eldar offering any kind of resistance to both Morgoth and the Feanorians, so it makes sense that Gil-galad became a king in that capacity. And if we assume that he became High King in that era then this kind of makes sense.

However, it makes little sense that Eärendil and Elwing were apparently not the monarchs ruling the survivors at Sirion considering their impeccable royal bloodline. The status of Elrond and Elros would have only increased after their parents effectively became half-gods or deities. Elrond is effectively the son of a heavenly star who cast down the greatest dragon of Morgoth, destroying Thangorodrim and Angband in the process of that. That is one of the greatest deeds ever depicted in the stories of Elves and Men.

In that sense, even if we assume that Elrond could not be High King of the Noldor, it still doesn't make sense that he was never the King of Imladris. Imladris wasn't that small a domain back in the SA when it was founded.

And you can continue that thing - it is also rather odd that Eregion never had a king. If Celebrimbor was Feanor's grandson he should have been king of that place, too. If Gondolin or Nargothrond can have a king, so should other Elven domains of equal size.

Edited July 26, 2021 by Lord Varys

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

23 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

We really don't know. I mean, Maedhros may have been the head of 'House Feanor' after his father's death, but if Maedhros had predeceased Fingolfin Maglor may have decided that he should be the High King after his uncle's death.

Bottom line is, not is the High Kingship an empty honor, it is clearly titual kingship that's decided not by law and tradition but by political expedience.

Going back through things it kind makes sense that neither Elrond nor Elros became kings at the end of the FA, considering they were raised by Maglor ... who wouldn't have any interest in that kind of thing. Gil-galad and Círdan were the last free Eldar offering any kind of resistance to both Morgoth and the Feanorians, so it makes sense that Gil-galad became a king in that capacity. And if we assume that he became High King in that era then this kind of makes sense.

However, it makes little sense that Eärendil and Elwing were apparently not the monarchs ruling the survivors at Sirion considering their impeccable royal bloodline. The status of Elrond and Elros would have only increased after their parents effectively became half-gods or deities. Elrond is effectively the son of a heavenly star who cast down the greatest dragon of Morgoth, destroying Thangorodrim and Angband in the process of that. That is one of the greatest deeds ever depicted in stories of Elves and Men.

In that sense, even if we assume that Elrond could not be High King of the Noldor, it still doesn't make sense that he was never the King of Imladris. Imladris wasn't that small a domain back in the SA when it was founded.

And you can continue that thing - it is also rather odd that Eregion never had a king. If Celebrimbor was Feanor's grandson he should have been king of that place, too. If Gondolin or Nargothrond can have a king, so should other Elven domains of equal size.

I wonder why Thranduil calls himself a king while the remaining “nobility” of the Eldar simply claim “lordships”?

[Lord Varys]

4 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I wonder why Thranduil calls himself a king while the remaining “nobility” of the Eldar simply claim “lordships”?

One assumes because Thranduil succeeded his father as king.

Celeborn and Galadriel are not the royal dynasty of Lórien, so they cannot be the monarchs of that place. They were invited to live with and rule over the Galadhrim. A similar case can be made for Círdan. He was never a king, nor a relative of Gil-galad, so he could not possibly succeed him as a king there. But he became the lord of the place because he was such a great authority, similar to Celeborn and Galadriel.

One could also speculate that it made less and less sense to establish a proper Elven kingdom after so many Eldar had left in the SA, most notably after the destruction of Eregion and the defeat of Sauron at the end of the age.

But as I tried to argue - Imladris was established at a time when there were still many Eldar in Eriador, so Elrond should have been its king throughout the SA and then also in the TA, considering it wouldn't make sense for a king to give up a title he already had.

In a sense, I guess, one can compare the lordships of the Eldar in the TA to the Stewards of Gondor. They stepped in for kings who should have been there but weren't. It would be a sign/symptom of the overall decline and fading of the Elves in Middle-earth.

In light of that it makes sense that the healthiest Elven society in Middle-earth - Thranduil's realm in Mirkwood - still has a king while all the other Elven realms have lost theirs.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

One assumes because Thranduil succeeded his father as king.

Celeborn and Galadriel are not the royal dynasty of Lórien, so they cannot be the monarchs of that place. They were invited to live with and rule over the Galadhrim. A similar case can be made for Círdan. He was never a king, nor a relative of Gil-galad, so he could not possibly succeed him as a king there. But he became the lord of the place because he was such a great authority, similar to Celeborn and Galadriel.

One could also speculate that it made less and less sense to establish a proper Elven kingdom after so many Eldar had left in the SA, most notably after the destruction of Eregion and the defeat of Sauron at the end of the age.

But as I tried to argue - Imladris was established at a time when there were still many Eldar in Eriador, so Elrond should have been its king throughout the SA and then also in the TA, considering it wouldn't make sense for a king to give up a title he already had.

In a sense, I guess, one can compare the lordships of the Eldar in the TA to the Stewards of Gondor. They stepped in for kings who should have been there but weren't. It would be a sign/symptom of the overall decline and fading of the Elves in Middle-earth.

In light of that it makes sense that the healthiest Elven society in Middle-earth - Thranduil's realm in Mirkwood - still has a king while all the other Elven realms have lost theirs.

Imladris was established by Elrond at the direction of Gil-Galad.  Elrond may have felt it was inappropriate to claim a Kingship since he was Lord of Imladris at the direction of someone else?

[Lord Varys]

14 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Imladris was established by Elrond at the direction of Gil-Galad.  Elrond may have felt it was inappropriate to claim a Kingship since he was Lord of Imladris at the direction of someone else?

Could be ... but then the Noldor of the FA also established kingdoms of their own while under the formal authority of Feanor and later Fingolfin. That didn't stop them from taking the titles of kings. Turgon was the younger son of Fingolfin, after all. (Although if you keep in mind the original LT material where Turgon was a son of Finwe it actually makes sense that Turgon is a king in his own right. He didn't have a kingly father nor an elder brother when Tolkien invented Gondolin.)

With Elrond the issue really is that the guy has the most prestigious bloodline of all the Elves and Men in Middle-earth. It is really odd that the Elves of Lindon, say, didn't choose him as their king rather than Gil-galad. If I had to choose between the son of Eärendil and the son of obscure and unimpressive Orodreth I knew who I'd pick. Even more so in light of the fact that the Men helping to overthrow Morgoth chose Elrond's twin brother Elros as their king.

That said - one can speculate why Elrond wouldn't want to be a king. But Tolkien should have explained that. Because it is odd.

Edited July 26, 2021 by Lord Varys

[One-Winged Balrog]

You people are all missing the point. It is not Elves, nor Ents, nor the Gondorians who are the paragons of Middle Earth, but hobbits. And they have a democracy, albeit a very small-government farmer-libertarian one.

It's a contrast between what Tolkien liked in myths and legends (ancient kings of divine bloodlines, blah blah et cetera) and what he liked in real life (the Shire).

Edited July 27, 2021 by One-Winged Balrog

[Lord Varys]

8 hours ago, One-Winged Balrog said:

You people are all missing the point. It is not Elves, nor Ents, nor the Gondorians who are the paragons of Middle Earth, but hobbits. And they have a democracy, albeit a very small-government farmer-libertarian one.

It's a contrast between what Tolkien liked in myths and legends (ancient kings of divine bloodlines, blah blah et cetera) and what he liked in real life (the Shire).

Well, the Shire doesn't have a democracy as such. There are democractic elements in the management of the internal affairs of the Hobbits (meaning the election of the Mayor) but the true power in the Shire lies in the hands of the Thain, and that's a hereditary office in the hands of House Took at the times of the LotR.

The Thains are the quasi-kings of the Shire.

Power in the Shire is in the hand of wealthy landowners who run things and share in power to a degree, with the rest of the meekly happily doing what they are told.

That is not a democracy at all.

[A wilding]

It is basically an idealised version of 18th - 19th century rural England.

Frodo is your classic English gentleman. He inherited a nice house and enough money to have no need to work, and is related in one way or another to most of the important people in the Shire. And when an out of context problem turns up in the shape of the Ring. he considers it his duty to step up and solve it himself.