nyser1 Posted July 29, 2020 Share Posted July 29, 2020 You could play this a couple of ways but what do you envision happening if Catelyn Stark (regardless of what happens to Brienne) stays after Renly dies, at least until Loras arrives? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowen 747 Posted July 29, 2020 Share Posted July 29, 2020 Cat would try at an explanation. Is Loras in a fit state of mind to listen to Cat describe a shadow assassin that looked like his brother? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nyser1 Posted July 29, 2020 Author Share Posted July 29, 2020 17 minutes ago, Bowen 747 said: Cat would try at an explanation. Is Loras in a fit state of mind to listen to Cat describe a shadow assassin that looked like his brother? Nope, but even at peak anger I do not envision Cat being killed or physically harmed, particularly given who she is and the unrealistic chivalric pomp of the Reach. I think even Loras enraged would take it out on Brienne. However, the Tyrells may very well abduct her against her will. What happens next? Sure they could use her as a political pawn with the Lannisters or Stannis, but they have love for neither. Do they engage Robb? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowen 747 Posted July 29, 2020 Share Posted July 29, 2020 I don't know. Cat can wait it until Loras calmed down. Talk to him soothingly and sympathetically. Work the conversation to the shadow. The Tyrells may hold her for hostage. She will be treated gently because of her status and value as hostage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Steller Posted July 29, 2020 Share Posted July 29, 2020 The idea of Catelyn becoming a hostage of the Tyrells is an interesting one. Especially given Littlefinger’s role in turning the Tyrells to Tywin’s side. I wonder if he’d change his plans with Catelyn being held prisoner. She’d never forgive Littlefinger if she knew about his role in forging the Lannister-Tyrell alliance, so he would either have to conceal his involvement from her thoroughly, or he would have to make an alliance between the Tyrells and the Stark/Tully faction instead. Though that seems incredibly unlikely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daemon The Black Dragon Posted July 30, 2020 Share Posted July 30, 2020 At best she ends up a prisoner, at worse she is executed (along with Brienne) for killing Renly. No ones going to believe her and Brienne story about a shadow killing Renly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lannister Posted July 30, 2020 Share Posted July 30, 2020 People weren't exactly in a rational frame of mind in the aftermath of Renly's death. Loras especially. He murdered two of his Rainbow Guard brothers and was ready to kill Brienne on sight months later. Talk of shadow baby assassins isn't going to help that. Let's remember a good portion of the blame already went on Catelyn and Brienne as is. So I could entirely see Loras murdering the both of them in the fit of rage he was in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Steller Posted July 30, 2020 Share Posted July 30, 2020 47 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said: So I could entirely see Loras murdering the both of them in the fit of rage he was in. And then that’s an international incident. The Lady Catelyn Tully, widow of Winterfell? Murdered in cold blood by Loras? Even if people choose to believe her capable of murdering Renly (which anyone who knew her would know was BS), that’s a crisis for House Tyrell. Though that would basically mean that the Lannisters profit hugely. They accuse the Starks of sending an assassin to kill Renly and they also accuse the Tyrells of executing a member of a Great House without trial or gods-given approval. Plus Brienne’s murder means that at least some of the stormlords are going to be unhappy with Loras, to say the least. Loras was lucky that he only killed Robar and Emmon (though I still can’t believe he’s never had to deal with ramifications for that). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peach King Posted July 30, 2020 Share Posted July 30, 2020 27 minutes ago, James Steller said: And then that’s an international incident. The Lady Catelyn Tully, widow of Winterfell? Murdered in cold blood by Loras? Even if people choose to believe her capable of murdering Renly (which anyone who knew her would know was BS), that’s a crisis for House Tyrell. Though that would basically mean that the Lannisters profit hugely. They accuse the Starks of sending an assassin to kill Renly and they also accuse the Tyrells of executing a member of a Great House without trial or gods-given approval. Plus Brienne’s murder means that at least some of the stormlords are going to be unhappy with Loras, to say the least. Loras was lucky that he only killed Robar and Emmon (though I still can’t believe he’s never had to deal with ramifications for that). Killing Robar and Emmon wasn't a crime. They were technically traitors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Steller Posted July 30, 2020 Share Posted July 30, 2020 2 hours ago, Peach King said: Killing Robar and Emmon wasn't a crime. They were technically traitors. Killing Catelyn wouldn’t be so easily dismissed. Especially with the North and Riverlands on the warpath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nyser1 Posted July 30, 2020 Author Share Posted July 30, 2020 16 hours ago, James Steller said: Killing Catelyn wouldn’t be so easily dismissed. Especially with the North and Riverlands on the warpath. Precisely. Also, remember that this is the chauvanistic machissimo home of chivalry. I do not buy that they would believe a middle-aged (or near) "highborn mother and lady" with scarred hands would be able to shank a 6 foot plus 20 some odd year old muscle man in his armor and kill him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lannister Posted July 30, 2020 Share Posted July 30, 2020 20 hours ago, James Steller said: And then that’s an international incident. The Lady Catelyn Tully, widow of Winterfell? Murdered in cold blood by Loras? Even if people choose to believe her capable of murdering Renly (which anyone who knew her would know was BS), that’s a crisis for House Tyrell. Though that would basically mean that the Lannisters profit hugely. They accuse the Starks of sending an assassin to kill Renly and they also accuse the Tyrells of executing a member of a Great House without trial or gods-given approval. Plus Brienne’s murder means that at least some of the stormlords are going to be unhappy with Loras, to say the least. Loras was lucky that he only killed Robar and Emmon (though I still can’t believe he’s never had to deal with ramifications for that). Again, Loras wasn't in a rational state of mind during this. So I doubt very much he was considering the political implications when he killed Robar and Emmon(My only guess is he avoided any ramifications because no one knew exactly what happened anywhere during this). Even in King's Landing he still wanted to attack Brienne on sight and was only restrained by Jaime. So yes, I believe he was entirely capable of killing her and Catelyn in cold blood in the immediate aftermath of Renly's death, political fallout be damned. Yes, it would be a crisis for the Tyrells to a point. The North isn't going to be any immediate threat to them and they just end up aligning with the Lannisters via a different path. Littlefinger may not get rewarded for brokering the alliance, in fact I could see Joffrey wanting to grant Loras a lordship or something. Mace would probably still insist on an engagement between Margaery and Joffrey though. Catelyn not being around to set Jaime free could have some consequences. It probably handwaves away the Red Wedding since the Karstarks probably remain loyal and Robb isn't desperate enough to step into Walder Frey's lair. Though I don't see a happy ending for the North all the same, and Frey probably still ends up closing the Twins to Robb trapping him in the Riverlands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Steller Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 3 hours ago, Lord Lannister said: Again, Loras wasn't in a rational state of mind during this. So I doubt very much he was considering the political implications when he killed Robar and Emmon(My only guess is he avoided any ramifications because no one knew exactly what happened anywhere during this). Even in King's Landing he still wanted to attack Brienne on sight and was only restrained by Jaime. So yes, I believe he was entirely capable of killing her and Catelyn in cold blood in the immediate aftermath of Renly's death, political fallout be damned. That’s not quite what happened. Jaime does order Loras to stand down but Loras wasn’t attacking Brienne. He has his sword drawn, sure, but he’s yelling at Brienne to arm herself because he won’t have it said that he killed her when she wasn’t fighting back, plus she’s also a woman, so he can only justify killing her if she’s armed. So yes, even at this emotional moment, Loras is aware of what would happen if he cut down an unarmed woman, no matter the reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lannister Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 38 minutes ago, James Steller said: That’s not quite what happened. Jaime does order Loras to stand down but Loras wasn’t attacking Brienne. He has his sword drawn, sure, but he’s yelling at Brienne to arm herself because he won’t have it said that he killed her when she wasn’t fighting back, plus she’s also a woman, so he can only justify killing her if she’s armed. So yes, even at this emotional moment, Loras is aware of what would happen if he cut down an unarmed woman, no matter the reason. Yes, he was still so enraged over that incident that months later he was resorting to violence still. In the heat of the moment that caused that episode, I don't think he'd be so restrained. He certainly wasn't with Robar, Emmon and that other random guard. I highly doubt he bothered with the niceties of a formal challenge then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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